Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[Dragrath]

11 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

But there's a lot info that contradict it. Or not. That's what's fun about FE4.

I always seen the dragon table as huge as hell, so... I mean the thing was created to contain crazy dragons. It got to be big.

You're creating things again and tying things that had nothing to do. :p
In FE1/3, Dragons (or Manaketes, whatever) were persecuted. The only one that was worshipped as a god was Naga, which is dead. And I don't even remember he/she was worshiped a dragon or a hero.
Scouring were all about some legendary weapons causing massive meteo catastrophe. Not dragons. :p.

That's my point. Tiki is supposed to be perhaps as strong a Naga is sealed away in case, which establishe once again that dragons are supposed to be just that, dragons.  Meanwhile, you have Duma and Mila, now retconed as divine dragons, who go willy nilly in Valencia with zero problems and do god-like stuff, which is even more dangerous than Tiki.
You really don't see the problem ?

Well They were banished before the degeneration if I read the changes correctly. Moreover Tiki is Naga's daughter and from what we have seen Naga seems to be leagues above other dragons. Tiki's potential was comparable to her own which I think is why Naga acted so distinctly there. Tiki's mind couldn't handle the power and Naga was afraid Tiki would degenerate into what probably would have been the most powerful monstrosity ever... I would guess that Duma and Mila post recon wouldn't be strong enough to warrant the same level of response. Though You would think they would be contacted regarding the treat of degeneration? Or at least dealt with similar to other degenerate dragons... Unless Naga thought they were dead? It is a plot hole as far as I can tell unless we are told that they were just presumed dead... meh.

 

As for FE 4 I get the tension as IS hasn't shown good writing ability in recent entries... However part of me would love to see Loptyr's motives explored more though I am afraid they will try and connect him to Grima... I can see those bugs as being related to Loptyr but Grima is too mindless to be Loptyr.  Unless whatever Loptyr sought to do failed? Loptyr has the potential to be one of FE's better villains if done right so I hope Loptyr gets done well if IS ever decides to go there...

[omegaxis1]

Naga was worshipped as a hero, though the humans sort of misinterpreted Naga and believed that Naga was a human, despite how she was a dragon. They also depicted her to have both Falchion and the Shield of Seals, even though we know that the latter was definitely made post-Dragon war, but no certainty on Falchion's time of creation. Not the first time that humans misinterpret things and gets the facts wrong. 

But yes, the Manaketes were persecuted, but you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that if Forseti DID stick around in Jugdral, there would have been consequences that could have caused even worse damage. A god can easily be seen as a devil if a person can simply make people change their perspective. With the power of Forseti controlling the wind, its not unlikely that Forseti could have caused untold devastation and the people see him not as a protector, but a tyrant. The entire reason that Scouring in the Elibe series happened is because the humans feared the overwhelming might of dragons. 

Also, the catastrophe of the Legendary Weapons in Elibe was 1 factor, as it was said that it was the power of the weapons CLASHING against the power of the dragons that caused it. Massive magical energy colliding can easily be understood to have untold catastrophic consequences. 

Oh, I think I get what you're saying. Even if its during the time of the golden age, how is it that Mila and Duma aren't rampaging as degenerated dragons if they likely never sealed their powers away as dragons. That part I'm confused as well. I'm still lacking the complete details in the case of SoV, just know the essential info regarding Duma, Mila, and Grima. 

7 hours ago, Dragrath said:

As for FE 4 I get the tension as IS hasn't shown good writing ability in recent entries... However part of me would love to see Loptyr's motives explored more though I am afraid they will try and connect him to Grima... I can see those bugs as being related to Loptyr but Grima is too mindless to be Loptyr.  Unless whatever Loptyr sought to do failed? Loptyr has the potential to be one of FE's better villains if done right so I hope Loptyr gets done well if IS ever decides to go there...

Grima isn't actually mindless. If anything, the fact that he's able to speak freely as a dragon and not be affected by a degeneration is far more impressive. And the fact that he was created as an experiment of alchemy using dragon corpses and living divine dragon blood, along with the blood of the human that created it. Also, Loptyr didn't give that much of an appearance until the very end, which was when Julius died. But based on what we've gotten, Loptyr had no goal beyond terrorizing humans. Nothing more than that. He just hates humans cause he's self absorbed with pride as an Earth Dragon. 

Also, while IS hasn't shown good writing ability that much, they had lots of potential and were really good at what they've shown so far, or what they could have shown.

[RedEyedDrake]

From what I gathered of Loptyr as a person, Loptyr as he came to be after becoming a Shadow Dragon was pretty much the dragon version of Gharnef as he came to be after getting exposed to the Darksphere's power.

Edited April 24, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[B.Leu]

Actually, I feel like screwing with humans out ot jealousy and hatred is pretty solid. Your race is screwed in the profit of another, worst still, your supposed to be totally okay with that and bend over if said race try to do something.
It sure is better than Grima or Anankos.

Hmm... it seems the Ending Winter was caused by the weapons. After the Scourging, people said it was the dragons, but according ro Jahn, it was all the weapons that screwed everyone. It's hard to refute his claim, since he is the only one who can actually back up, him being a dragon and all.
Yup, threre was a time where Fire Emblem was able leave things open and ambiguous. :p

What Levin has become is left ambiguous, and the only one who know the truth is Celice. If Lev had stick around, nothing would have come from it. Because Lev is still human.... probably. For all we knew, he could have been a twilight vampire and killed imself out of shame. :p
Or more seriously he might have just puffed out of existence, of killed himself.
Don't create things man. The only one that was worshipped was Naga. And now Mila and Duma thanks to retcon.

If Duma and Mila sealed their power in stones, it sure doesn't show with their not-dragon but godly power. Golden age or not, it's bad writing.

I said it again, I don't trust IS to not screw things up. They already proven to me their 'shitty writing power' way too many times.

Edited April 24, 2017 by B.Leu

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, B.Leu said:

Actually, I feel like screwing with humans out ot jealousy and hatred is pretty solid. Your race is screwed in the profit of another, worst still, your supposed to be totally okay with that and bend over if said race try to do something.
It sure is better than Grima or Anankos.

Actually, not really. Loptyr was short sighted and hated humans purely because he couldn't accept that humans would dominate the land. The humans themselves did nothing at that point. They just existed. Hating someone just for existing is very petty. Now Medeus I can understand, but not Loptyr. 

Both Anankos and Grima have legit reasons too. Anankos hated humans both out of degeneration and because he was betrayed by humans. He helped them all that time, but a single mistake that caused him to destroy a forest that didn't even harm a person, and the humans tried to kill him. Its said in SoV that Grima was created and tortured. However, given that he was created from dragon corpses or dracozombies and then mixed with divine blood, its such an imbalance that Grima likely couldn't think of anything BUT destruction. He was a being existing between life and death in the mortal plane. 

So if anything, I find that as villains in the case of reasons, Loptyr is the WORST out of them. Its actually MANFORY that's the real villain in FE4. 

6 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Hmm... it seems the Ending Winter was caused by the weapons. After the Scourging, people said it was the dragons, but according ro Jahn, it was all the weapons that screwed everyone. It's hard to refute his claim, since he is the only one who can actually back up, hm being a dragon and all.
Yup, threre was a time where Fire Emblem was able leave things open and ambiguous. :p

Jahn: They came and attacked this sanctuary. However, the immense power of the weapons clashing with our own power... It caused something none of us had anticipated.
Roy: What happened?
Jahn: The laws of nature started to collapse. Snow began to fall in summer. Stars shone in the middle of day...
Roy: You mean it caused the Ending Winter? I thought it occurred because the dragons released vast amounts of energy...
Jahn: Is that how your legends go?
Roy: The power of the legendary weapons were used to restore order to nature. That's what I learned.
Jahn: So in other words, we were the cause of everything bad that happened. How typical of you humans. But the truth is as I said.

As Jahn says, it wasn't just the weapons that caused it, but their clashing with the dragons. Humans just altered it to say it was just dragons that caused it and they were the ones responsible for the mess, and the good guys were purely the humans. 

18 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

What Levin has become is left ambiguous, and the only one who know the truth is Celice. If Lev had stick around, nothing would have come from it. Because Lev is still human.... probably. For all he we knew, he could have been a twilight vampire and killed imself out of shame. :p

 "This means that there's no doubt that the Lewyn in the second half is basically the same person as Lewyn in the first half. However, he's given a part of himself to Forseti... And, when the Holy War ends, Forseti actually leaves, but because of the exchange, Lewyn can't live as Lewyn so to speak, and cannot retain his original existence so he cannot go back to Silesse and take the crown. That is why this part is a discordance where the dragon race who had a law to not intervene with the human race did what they are usually not supposed to do--saving a person who was supposed to die."

^ Lewyn was restored to life by Forseti, but in such, Lewyn could never return to who he was. It was his time to die even, but Forseti broke the law and thus Lewyn was revived as half the man in a sense, and even strained his relations with his family. And given that regardless of the pairings, the canonized pairing was with Erinys, that means that both of his children pretty much hate Lewyn now. I think only Ced realized the condition Lewyn was in at the end of Genealogy.

24 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Don't create things man. The only one that was worshipped was Naga. And now Mila and Duma thanks to retcon.

If Duma and Mila sealed their power in stones, it sure doesn't show with their not-dragon but godly power.

Mila and Duma were worshipped to begin with. They're just confirmed to be Divine Dragons now. Retcon, sure.

But technically speaking, humans have tended to view dragons as gods in the series many times. Jugdral holds them all as gods, and Duma and Mila are called gods by humans in Gaiden. There wasn't really anyone to give the history lesson of what they were. 

But of course, its still a retcon since it was never confirmed what they were when the original game was made.

IS will have a lot of explaining to do later.

26 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Golden age or not, it's bad writing.

Fates, sure. Awakening, nope. I'll say Awakening was more lacking than bad. It was still a good story overall, whereas Fates just fell flat on its face as a story.

[B.Leu]

Uh, I don't remember the Winter was caused by both. Strange.I think I'm mixing things up.
Why i don't like debates, my brain fry quickly and I forgot things (I do that a lot). I'll stop before I screw up even more.

Exactly, that's more logical, simple and interesting than Grima and Anankos could ever be.
Grima is literally just a dumb dark god pulled out of nowhere "rumored to be descendant of the Earth Dragon", just to do as if. (Aka, shutup it's magic)
You must have missed the part where the bad guys seek the Fire Emblem more than half of the game, only for Grima to literally spawn without it just because. :p
Honeslty, Loptyr and Manfroy are better than Grima and Validar.

Edited April 24, 2017 by B.Leu

[omegaxis1]

If you're gonna argue about how Loptyr is better just cause its a simple reason that seems logical, then really, Grima is again better, if you just look at Awakening. He loves to destroy humans, and sees them as insects. If he's said to be descended from Earth Dragons, then he's pretty much inherited their prideful nature. With SoV, its likely the dragon corpses were in fact Earth Dragons that were used. 

Loptyr's hate on humans isn't in any way logical. Its pitiful. If anything, it just makes him just a child that hates to lose games or thinks he's better. Even SoV's Duma, whom Werdna refers to as an edgelord, is already better than Loptyr. 

I won't deny that Manfroy is better, since he did manipulate events better, and his reasons are legit, as he was persecuted and possibly burned by people because he was part of the Lopto Sect. He has every right to hate them and want them to suffer. However, his stupidity is given at the end, where he didn't have Julia killed like he should have, and pretty much gave Seliph the chance to actually get Julia back and the Book of Naga. 

Why Grima waited is likely cause he wanted to have history repeat itself, but saved himself as a backup if necessary. 

Issues with Grima and Validar falls more under how Awakening's plot was just overly rushed overall.

[TheWerdna]

Also, we know that at least the Fire Emblem must have been created long before it was sealed because we know that

1) The Miracle of Darna happened after the other Earth Dragons were already defeated.

2) We know because of where the timelines match up that the Miracle of Darna happens before the date where Naga enshrined Falchion and the Fire Emblem.

3) We know the war with the Earth Dragons ended with Naga using the Fire Emblem to seal away the Earth Dragons

Thus from these three statements, we can tell that the Fire Emblem was created over 100 years before it was enshrined. As for Falchion, we don't know if she made it at the exact same time was the Fire Emblem (in which case she likely used it herself) or if she only made Falchion when she decided to enshrine the Fire Emblem

Edited April 25, 2017 by TheWerdna

[B.Leu]

Saying that Grima's potential is screwed by the plot is the easy way out, imo... but I'm the one to talk. :p

I maintain my case about Grima being a BS plot device fo elephant proportion, Loptyr's motives not being that illogical or that pitifuf (I mean bending over to a race that hate you musn't be cool), but I gotta admit the revelation of what Grima is in SoV is pretty freaking badass and might beat him. I have to look closer when I have the game in hand.

As an added bonus, it's almost completly cut from Awakening.

Edited April 26, 2017 by B.Leu

[Emperor Hardin]

On 4/18/2017 at 8:15 PM, omegaxis1 said:

Okay, let's get one thing straight here. I honestly do not have any issues with Loptyr and Naga being equals. My issue here is that it just contradicts everything on a logical sense. You're basically saying that the ENTIRE war with the ENTIRE Earth Dragons did not so much as leave a MARK on Naga that she was only ever weakened by Loptyr? That's pure bullshit. You expect that to make sense? 

You cannot involve what happened in Genealogy the same way here. By the point of Genealogy, the remaining dragons were already a shell of their formers selves, having to no longer rule the land and becoming manaketes. Given the little information we have in the golden age, we have no way of knowing if the dragons were as close as you claim. All we do know is that the dragons lived in peace, the Divine and Earth dragons were the strongest, and then the degeneration happened. 

And even if Naga knew that the Earth dragons were being sent to another continent, that doesn't mean that she'll give them her fang. That's stupid. Because for all she knew, they could use that fang AGAINST her. She'd have no trust in them. Its not pride, its common sense. If she didn't know them, if she had no relations to them, and they were just random dragons that just happened to be exiled, she'd have no reason. It only makes better sense as Divine Dragons because she'd have more of an opportunity to know them, thus trusting them enough to give her fang and consider that it wouldn't be misused. 

The very way you're describing it makes little sense. 

That doesn't answer my question. I asked if you think that Naga would never have ever slightly considered the idea that Medeus might hold a grudge for what happened to his tribe? And the very fact that she got through a war where the majority of dragons went insane out of pride showed that no, dragons do NOT hold humanity in such a high regard, so what you said just now makes no sense.

... Okay, here's how you just contradicted yourself. First off, the very fact that Xane HAD to have been one of those dragons that battled the Earth Dragons, and Gotoh, but THEY survived, just showed that no, not all Divine Dragons died from that war. Next, the very fact that Nowi might be a Divine Dragon means she has a Divine Dragon as a parent, so that person could be a survivor. 

So no, there ARE Divine Dragon survivors, and not all died from the war. But there are scarce amount at this point. But this way that shows that the orbs could likely have been made by the Divine Dragons. Also, it was only the Divine Dragons that fought the Earth Dragons would only mean that they would have contributed to sealing the Earth Dragons, so that would only make sense that THEY'D make those orbs. 

Here we go again. First off, we're STILL on the case where Forseti might be a Divine Dragon, and is wind element. So its not that surprising if other Divine Dragons can perform more than the norm of "light" element. And it goes that they aren't mutants at all, just Divine Dragons, likely powerful ones. 

Sigh... okay, I'm not trying to be mean here, but all I'm doing is telling theories and possible stuff that COULD be the case. Its what I do. I see information and stuff, ideas form, and I make theories out of it.

Also, what you said is an opinion. It can very well be good to other people. Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean others wouldn't like it either. 

And I call bullshit on that. If you're saying that an indirect battle against a SINGLE Earth Dragon is enough to cripple her, as opposed to an entire WAR with the ENTIRE Tribe, that's almost insulting to how wars work.

A vague illustration, no actual mention that she was actually healthy nor was she mentioned to be crippled, and you pass it off as saying that she wasn't crippled as pure fact? She only had a SINGLE appearance and you claim she was perfectly healthy? She could LOOK healthy, but then again, so do a lot of people. That doesn't mean a damn thing if your body is suffering on the inside and you might never know it.

Are you serious? Do you honestly think that injuries sustained in a gruesome war that killed dragons off despite their substantially large lifespan would heal just like that? 200 years is barely anything for dragons. To humans, its a long time. To dragons, a blink of the eye. The damage they sustain that can actually kill them is great, so yes, scars and wounds WOULD last even after 200 years. 

Are you paying any attention? Loptyr CONTROLLED people. Naga at best INFLUENCED them. But Kaga stated that putting her will was a "worrying decision". She didn't want to control humans. Loptyr did. The difference in desires actually makes ALL the difference. If Naga's tome shows to influence wills at best as opposed to controlling them, that means more that her will was not implanted as strongly, but it was still very strong. It stated that Naga also put her will into it, but based on how we've seen Julia with the tome, she wasn't showing any outrageous change in behavior, but she was feeling Naga's will through the tome. 

So based on the interview and now the gameplay on Julia, that's already proof that Naga hadn't implanted so much power into it that she was able to control others.

Don't put words into my mouth. I enjoyed the story of Genealogy. It was very incredible and impressive with how the story was rather complex and the development as incredible. However, if I notice issues or stuff, I have the desire to point it out and give ideas on why this and that are happening. Don't assume me insisting that Naga was crippled and they weren't equals as me hating on Genealogy. Its me trying to make sense of things, because Naga dying after the fight with Loptyr could only be believable in my opinion if Naga was already weakened by then. 

We know nothing about Salamander, just that he was very likely a Fire Dragon. He could have been an ordinary Fire Dragon that decided to help. Hell, he could have been Bantu. 

Just because Naga implanted her power and will into her book doesn't mean she put everything into it like Loptyr did with his tome. Because unlike Loptyr, Naga's tome and the other weapons were not made to last forever. The power would decay over time, which it does, which supports that Naga didn't put all her power into it. If she did, the tome would never decay in power. 

Again, are you saying that the war did nothing to Naga, against an entire dragon tribe, but a single Earth Dragon was too much for Naga? 

Late reply, but I have the time now.

Nowi was most likely the child of some insignificant survivor thought up so Tiki’s popularity could be milked.

Everything indicates the Dragon tribes were at peace at the period, hence the golden age and all those descriptions. It was only the subject of humanity that divided Dragonkind.

Dragons do not use melee weapons, even most Manaketes, characters like Xane and Naga are anomalies among dragons. The majority of dragons taking immense pride in their natural form. Divine and the other dragon tribes, including Earth, were not in conflict at the time.  Even Dragons that take Manakete form are usually too prideful to try fighting like a human, so Naga withholding the Falchion and putting humanity in danger due to being afraid of it being used against the Divine Dragons is quite ridiculous.

Then why do you also claim Naga only a small part of their power, it seems like you’re trying to downplay the conflict of FE4

The Darksphere has a specifically Shadow Dragon looking head on it, this along with its power and relationship to the Lightsphere matching the Earth Dragon tribe, all but says it isn't Divine Dragon in origin.

While boring or not boring is opinion, I really don’t see how Divine Dragons having all powers, thus rendering all the other dragon tribes pointless, is a positive change

Are you paying attention. Kaga directly said Forsetti and Naga transferred their wills into the wielder of their tome just like Loptyr, they are literally counterparts of eachother, he says thats why their bloodlines are named after the dragon instead of the crusader. 

As mentioned, Naga had help from the other Divine Dragons in the war against degenerated dragons. Naga also was able to conserve her stone’s power via methods like the Falchion

Again, Kaga and FE4 itself repeatedly state Loptyr was Naga's equal in power, why keep denying that and coming up with excuses for how he's not Naga's equal. 

On 4/19/2017 at 0:01 PM, omegaxis1 said:

Echoes having that Falchion doesn't mean Naga used it during the war, and its even unlikely she did, because that Falchion was Duma's at that point. Also, there was never any proof that Naga fought with Falchion. All that was confirmed that Naga forged it to give HUMANS a chance to fight dragons. By no means does it mean that she ever used it, because she would never had needed to. 

Wait a minute, you just said Naga wouldn’t give the Falchion to the Earth dragons because they’d use it against the Divine Dragons, now you’re saying Naga wouldn’t use the Falchion due to being a Dragon. Thats a pretty huge contradiction.

On 4/24/2017 at 0:03 PM, omegaxis1 said:

If you're gonna argue about how Loptyr is better just cause its a simple reason that seems logical, then really, Grima is again better, if you just look at Awakening. He loves to destroy humans, and sees them as insects. If he's said to be descended from Earth Dragons, then he's pretty much inherited their prideful nature. With SoV, its likely the dragon corpses were in fact Earth Dragons that were used. 

Loptyr's hate on humans isn't in any way logical. Its pitiful. If anything, it just makes him just a child that hates to lose games or thinks he's better. Even SoV's Duma, whom Werdna refers to as an edgelord, is already better than Loptyr. 

I won't deny that Manfroy is better, since he did manipulate events better, and his reasons are legit, as he was persecuted and possibly burned by people because he was part of the Lopto Sect. He has every right to hate them and want them to suffer. However, his stupidity is given at the end, where he didn't have Julia killed like he should have, and pretty much gave Seliph the chance to actually get Julia back and the Book of Naga. 

Why Grima waited is likely cause he wanted to have history repeat itself, but saved himself as a backup if necessary. 

Issues with Grima and Validar falls more under how Awakening's plot was just overly rushed overall.

I get it now, you only want to downplay Loptyr because you want to make Grima look better. A retcon to make Loptyr look weak wouldn't make Grima look better, it'd only make people hate him for being the reason behind such a stupid retcon.

Grima is the one who calls himself the Evil Dragon, yet you call Loptyr the edge lord?

Forneus says he grew Grima from the size of his thumbnail, its looking very unlikely he's an Earth Dragon.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

55 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Late reply, but I have the time now.

Very late. Not really in the desire to continue this even. But... eh, why not.

56 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Nowi was most likely the child of some insignificant survivor thought up so Tiki’s popularity could be milked.

Maybe, but she exists, and that's fact, and is now the youngest Manakete that's likely Divine Dragon in origin. 

59 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Everything indicates the Dragon tribes were at peace at the period, hence the golden age and all those descriptions. It was only the subject of humanity that divided Dragonkind.

Before that was the case. Until we have now learned through retcons in SoV that the degeneration has actually been occurring even before the actual decline of dragons, based on what Mila's saying.

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Dragons do not use melee weapons, even most Manaketes, characters like Xane and Naga are anomalies among dragons. The majority of dragons taking immense pride in their natural form. Divine and the other dragon tribes, including Earth, were not in conflict at the time.  Even Dragons that take Manakete form are usually too prideful to try fighting like a human, so Naga withholding the Falchion and putting humanity in danger due to being afraid of it being used against the Divine Dragons is quite ridiculous.

SoV had said that Duma could easily have used Falchion against Mila at any time. He just chose not to because that's his sister, which is more out of love, not pride. So the fact is that its not out of the realm of possibility that Naga's fang could have been used against her. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Then why do you also claim Naga only a small part of their power, it seems like you’re trying to downplay the conflict of FE4

My main issue is that Naga's death as you all are going with makes no sense. A war does nothing to her, but a fight with Loptyr does even though it wasn't a direct confrontation? Even the argument that the tome holds more power makes no sense, because if it did, it'd hold all her spirit and will, which would actually take control of people. And it would last forever, not wear off as time goes by, so it'd be a tome version of Falchion, but it isn't. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The Darksphere has a specifically Shadow Dragon looking head on it, this along with its power and relationship to the Lightsphere matching the Earth Dragon tribe, all but says it isn't Divine Dragon in origin.

That drawing proves nothing and you know it. And there were no Shadow Dragons because Medeus wasn't even a true Shadow Dragon until the end of Mystery. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

While boring or not boring is opinion, I really don’t see how Divine Dragons having all powers, thus rendering all the other dragon tribes pointless, is a positive change

When has there been a Dragon Tribe aside from Divine and Earth that hasn't been pointless? Bantu is the only significant Fire Dragon, and all the Earth Dragons are dead or sealed. Ice Dragons don't even have named characters in the Archanea series. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Are you paying attention. Kaga directly said Forsetti and Naga transferred their wills into the wielder of their tome just like Loptyr, they are literally counterparts of eachother, he says thats why their bloodlines are named after the dragon instead of the crusader. 

As mentioned, Naga had help from the other Divine Dragons in the war against degenerated dragons. Naga also was able to conserve her stone’s power via methods like the Falchion

Again, Kaga and FE4 itself repeatedly state Loptyr was Naga's equal in power, why keep denying that and coming up with excuses for how he's not Naga's equal. 

Please show me word for word in the interview where Kaga specifically mentions that Naga and Loptyr were equal in power. I'm not denying the possibility, but since you're so insistent, show me.

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Wait a minute, you just said Naga wouldn’t give the Falchion to the Earth dragons because they’d use it against the Divine Dragons, now you’re saying Naga wouldn’t use the Falchion due to being a Dragon. Thats a pretty huge contradiction.

Not really. First I realized that the weapon was given so that it would be used against Duma and Mila in the case that they degenerate. Then someone just brought a good point in saying that giving Duma the very weapon that could be used against her is in itself a stupid move, which I am inclined to agree. I mean, come on, the very reason that Duma got kicked out was because he was arguing with Naga. So why would Naga give Duma the weapon that was meant to be used by humans AGAINST Duma? Like, it was to give humans a fighting chance, but the plan could so easily backfire.

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I get it now, you only want to downplay Loptyr because you want to make Grima look better. A retcon to make Loptyr look weak wouldn't make Grima look better, it'd only make people hate him for being the reason behind such a stupid retcon.

Grima is the one who calls himself the Evil Dragon, yet you call Loptyr the edge lord?

Forneus says he grew Grima from the size of his thumbnail, its looking very unlikely he's an Earth Dragon.

*flicks* You deserved that. Its ALREADY clear that Grima is stronger than Loptyr. I don't NEED to retcon anything to know that. 

And better? Loptyr never had ANY form of development. He hardly made any appearance or really talked until the end. All we got out of Loptyr was second hand comments and interviews. Least Grima gives some insight of personality, even if its straightforward. And Loptyr just spited humans cause he couldn't stand that humans were gonna rule over dragons. So he wants to terrorize humans even though at that point in time, the humans did NOTHING against the dragons. Loptyr's hatred of humanity is purely out of irrational jealousy, and hates them just for existing. 

Least with Medeus, there was reasons. As for Grima, given that we sadly never got his backstory like we got Loptyr's, its unsure. 

However, from what we have learned in SoV spoilers, he was created through dark alchemy, using dragon corpses, the alchemist's blood, and divine dragon blood. It grew from the size of a thumbnail, yes, I guess to reference that he's somewhat of a draconic homunculus. However, if it was implied in the Knights of Iris that Grima was descended from Earth Dragons, then its likely that the corpses used for the transmutation were Earth Dragon corpses. 

Now this is where Grima's desire for destruction starts to slowly make sense. Grima is an abomination that was never meant to exist. Created from dead dragons and mixed with living blood. He's in a state of life and death. If those are Earth Dragon corpses, then they are of a dragon of degenerated mind. Now how can Grima do anything BUT desire to destroy at that point? And if its possible that as a thumbnail, Grima was subjected to further experiments and torture, by a human no less, then Grima has all the more reason to despise humanity.

[Emperor Hardin]

34 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Very late. Not really in the desire to continue this even. But... eh, why not.

Maybe, but she exists, and that's fact, and is now the youngest Manakete that's likely Divine Dragon in origin. 

Before that was the case. Until we have now learned through retcons in SoV that the degeneration has actually been occurring even before the actual decline of dragons, based on what Mila's saying.

SoV had said that Duma could easily have used Falchion against Mila at any time. He just chose not to because that's his sister, which is more out of love, not pride. So the fact is that its not out of the realm of possibility that Naga's fang could have been used against her. 

My main issue is that Naga's death as you all are going with makes no sense. A war does nothing to her, but a fight with Loptyr does even though it wasn't a direct confrontation? Even the argument that the tome holds more power makes no sense, because if it did, it'd hold all her spirit and will, which would actually take control of people. And it would last forever, not wear off as time goes by, so it'd be a tome version of Falchion, but it isn't. 

That drawing proves nothing and you know it. And there were no Shadow Dragons because Medeus wasn't even a true Shadow Dragon until the end of Mystery. 

When has there been a Dragon Tribe aside from Divine and Earth that hasn't been pointless? Bantu is the only significant Fire Dragon, and all the Earth Dragons are dead or sealed. Ice Dragons don't even have named characters in the Archanea series. 

Please show me word for word in the interview where Kaga specifically mentions that Naga and Loptyr were equal in power. I'm not denying the possibility, but since you're so insistent, show me.

Not really. First I realized that the weapon was given so that it would be used against Duma and Mila in the case that they degenerate. Then someone just brought a good point in saying that giving Duma the very weapon that could be used against her is in itself a stupid move, which I am inclined to agree. I mean, come on, the very reason that Duma got kicked out was because he was arguing with Naga. So why would Naga give Duma the weapon that was meant to be used by humans AGAINST Duma? Like, it was to give humans a fighting chance, but the plan could so easily backfire.

*flicks* You deserved that. Its ALREADY clear that Grima is stronger than Loptyr. I don't NEED to retcon anything to know that. 

And better? Loptyr never had ANY form of development. He hardly made any appearance or really talked until the end. All we got out of Loptyr was second hand comments and interviews. Least Grima gives some insight of personality, even if its straightforward. And Loptyr just spited humans cause he couldn't stand that humans were gonna rule over dragons. So he wants to terrorize humans even though at that point in time, the humans did NOTHING against the dragons. Loptyr's hatred of humanity is purely out of irrational jealousy, and hates them just for existing. 

Least with Medeus, there was reasons. As for Grima, given that we sadly never got his backstory like we got Loptyr's, its unsure. 

However, from what we have learned in SoV spoilers, he was created through dark alchemy, using dragon corpses, the alchemist's blood, and divine dragon blood. It grew from the size of a thumbnail, yes, I guess to reference that he's somewhat of a draconic homunculus. However, if it was implied in the Knights of Iris that Grima was descended from Earth Dragons, then its likely that the corpses used for the transmutation were Earth Dragon corpses. 

Now this is where Grima's desire for destruction starts to slowly make sense. Grima is an abomination that was never meant to exist. Created from dead dragons and mixed with living blood. He's in a state of life and death. If those are Earth Dragon corpses, then they are of a dragon of degenerated mind. Now how can Grima do anything BUT desire to destroy at that point? And if its possible that as a thumbnail, Grima was subjected to further experiments and torture, by a human no less, then Grima has all the more reason to despise humanity.

Degeneration having the first inklings of occurring doesn't change that the dragons were at peace.

Duma and Mila are Divine Dragons with human loving views and atypical views in general. The vast majority of dragons would not even think of using a human weapon in a human form. Again, its absurd that Naga would deny a Falchion especially considering that its exceedingly unlikely they'd take manakete form and use it themselves.

Falchion was just Naga's tooth, the tome was all Naga's essence, put against Naga's equal in power.

Thats literally a Shadow Dragon head, Fins, antenna and all. Everything indicates Shadow Dragons existed before Medeus. All pics of Anri and Medeus, depict the latter as a Shadow Dragon.

You'd be making the Earth Tribe pointless with the retcon that Divine Dragons control all elements. Also Bantu is pretty important in the scheme of things and there's nothing preventing from adding more Manakete characters.

Both me and RJwalker have already shown the interview, you keep denying it because you hate Jugdral.

Why wouldn't Naga use the Falchion to fight, yet worry Earth Dragons would use it against the Divine dragons? There still contradictory statements.

You literally have nothing proving Grima is stronger then Loptyr. Not only is the Naga in Awakening implied to be different from the original in the art book, but only one marked person was used to defeat Grima, while it took multiple to defeat Loptyr.

And Grima just wants to destroy, while calling himself evil. He doesn't even have a motivation, he just destroys for the sake of destruction. 

All Earth Dragons were sealed, there were no Earth Dragon corpses. As Gotoh explained, Earth Dragons regenerate when killed by most things. Hence why Naga sealed them all.

Also Grima probably avoids degeneration due to extensively relying on a vessel, literally an exact copy of Loptyr's plan.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Degeneration having the first inklings of occurring doesn't change that the dragons were at peace.

Duma and Mila are Divine Dragons with human loving views and atypical views in general. The vast majority of dragons would not even think of using a human weapon in a human form. Again, its absurd that Naga would deny a Falchion especially considering that its exceedingly unlikely they'd take manakete form and use it themselves.

Falchion was just Naga's tooth, the tome was all Naga's essence, put against one Naga's equal in power.

Have you never heard of how a dragon's fang is basically the most valuable thing to their power? Not only that, the very fact that the Awakening that unlocks all of Naga's power into the Falchion through the Awakening ritual just proves that Falchion is the superior weapon. If the tome actually held all of Naga's power and will, it would never have had its seal broken and weakened as time went by. Even moreso, the tome would possess the person carrying it if they had the bloodline, just like Loptyr's. While yes, Naga and Forseti's tome do hold the dragons' will in them, it is not to the same extent as Loptyr did. Why do I keep pointing this out? Because Naga doesn't want to possess anyone, and she knows what would happen if all her power was put into it. So her tome didn't hold her entire essence as you try to claim. 

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Thats literally a Shadow Dragon head, Fins, antenna and all. Everything indicates Shadow Dragons existed before Medeus. All pics of Anri and Medeus, depict the latter as a Shadow Dragon.

A drawing of Anri fighting Medeus, right? Yes, and have you forgotten that this drawing is inaccurate as Earth Dragons do not have wings and Medeus did not have wings when facing Marth? That art doesn't prove anything yet again. 

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You'd be making the Earth Tribe pointless with the retcon that Divine Dragons control all elements. Also Bantu is pretty important in the scheme of things and there's nothing preventing from adding more Manakete characters.

Actually hold on. Just realized something here. First off, remember that all dragons, not just Divine Dragons, possess vast and incredible magical abilities. In fact, Fire Emblem verse explains that Magic = Technology. Gotoh taught humans how to use magic, but its said that dragons as a whole were able to use magic far beyond human comprehension. So that would mean that even if the dragons are limited in their own power of a single element, the MAGIC they wield are NOT limited to that element. 

9 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Both me and RJwalker have already shown the interview, you keep denying it because you hate Jugdral.

Where's this idea that I hate Jugdral coming from? This is really a big thing you're accusing me of. So I'll make myself abundantly clear. 

I. Do. Not. Hate. Jugdral.

Get it? If not, then you're beyond help.

10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Why wouldn't Naga use the Falchion to fight, yet worry Earth Dragons would use it against the Divine dragons? There still contradictory statements.

See, here's the thing that's been annoying me. With SoV, its showing that dragons could turn into human form before they became Manaketes. The dragon war with the Earth and Divine Dragons happened after the Divine Dragons already took Manakete forms. However, its been mentioned both story and gameplay wise that Manaketes are VERY delicate and fragile, far weaker than normal humans even. That means that Naga COULDN'T actually fight effectively against the Earth Dragons even with Falchion. 

Furthermore, we don't even know if the war was where they were in dragon form or using weapons. There was never a full explanation as to how the war was fought completely, because remember that degeneration still plays a factor if they turn into a dragon.

13 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You literally have nothing proving Grima is stronger then Loptyr. Not only is the Naga in Awakening implied to be different from the original in the art book, but only one marked person was used to defeat Grima, while it took multiple to defeat Loptyr.

Let's see now, with SoV, even though Grima was not even NEAR the level of power that he has 1000 years later and then another 1000 years later, it took the power of Falchion, the "one and only godslayer" weapon to defeat him, and even THAT didn't kill him.

Even if its a different Naga, the fact that Naga has so much power that she can bend space-time, would indicate that she's not even considered weaker than the original, and yet she cannot kill Grima, but simply put Grima to sleep. 

Loptyr struck fear and damage to the continent for years, whereas Grima being around for years brought the entire WORLD to its knees. The very fact that Lucina and the others had to abandon their timeline to go to the past just proves that Grima is impossible to beat otherwise. 

17 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

And Grima just wants to destroy, while calling himself evil. He doesn't even have a motivation, he just destroys for the sake of destruction. 

Also Grima probably avoids degeneration due to extensively relying on a vessel, literally an exact copy of Loptyr's plan.

Given how he was created, its no wonder he wants to destroy. He was literally created as an abomination. He has nothing but destructive urges and desires in his mind. He's a mixture of life and death literally. Its not the same as with Loptyr, who had plenty of common sense and reason as a dragon that lived its life to know that humans did nothing wrong and were just there, but still he decided to hate on them.

And for the record, I might find Loptyr petty, but that doesn't mean that I think he's bad per se. 

Grima's case on the vessel intrigues me. When, how, and why does he need it? Its not explained. Is the alchemist that created him the one that forged the blood pact? We don't know. 

20 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

All Earth Dragons were sealed, there were no Earth Dragon corpses. As Gotoh explained, Earth Dragons regenerate when killed by most things. Hence why Naga sealed them all.

Given the war, I find it hard to believe that not a single Earth Dragon died in there and they were ALL sealed. There'd have to be some around.

And even if there wasn't, there's still at least 1 Earth Dragon body that COULD be used: Medeus.

For all we know, the body of Medeus that he has in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery is actually a new one created by Gharnef. I mean, Gharnef was a spirit, but his pupils tried to resurrect his body to put the soul in. So its not out of the range of logic that the body Medeus has in those two games are not his original one.

So at least 1-2 Earth Dragon bodies were there to be used.

[Baldrick]

Naga made two Falchions, one of them long before her death, so the process can't be too taxing on her. Why didn't she just give the Crusaders a Falchion?

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Have you never heard of how a dragon's fang is basically the most valuable thing to their power? Not only that, the very fact that the Awakening that unlocks all of Naga's power into the Falchion through the Awakening ritual just proves that Falchion is the superior weapon. If the tome actually held all of Naga's power and will, it would never have had its seal broken and weakened as time went by. Even moreso, the tome would possess the person carrying it if they had the bloodline, just like Loptyr's. While yes, Naga and Forseti's tome do hold the dragons' will in them, it is not to the same extent as Loptyr did. Why do I keep pointing this out? Because Naga doesn't want to possess anyone, and she knows what would happen if all her power was put into it. So her tome didn't hold her entire essence as you try to claim. 

A drawing of Anri fighting Medeus, right? Yes, and have you forgotten that this drawing is inaccurate as Earth Dragons do not have wings and Medeus did not have wings when facing Marth? That art doesn't prove anything yet again. 

Actually hold on. Just realized something here. First off, remember that all dragons, not just Divine Dragons, possess vast and incredible magical abilities. In fact, Fire Emblem verse explains that Magic = Technology. Gotoh taught humans how to use magic, but its said that dragons as a whole were able to use magic far beyond human comprehension. So that would mean that even if the dragons are limited in their own power of a single element, the MAGIC they wield are NOT limited to that element. 

Where's this idea that I hate Jugdral coming from? This is really a big thing you're accusing me of. So I'll make myself abundantly clear. 

I. Do. Not. Hate. Jugdral.

Get it? If not, then you're beyond help.

See, here's the thing that's been annoying me. With SoV, its showing that dragons could turn into human form before they became Manaketes. The dragon war with the Earth and Divine Dragons happened after the Divine Dragons already took Manakete forms. However, its been mentioned both story and gameplay wise that Manaketes are VERY delicate and fragile, far weaker than normal humans even. That means that Naga COULDN'T actually fight effectively against the Earth Dragons even with Falchion. 

Furthermore, we don't even know if the war was where they were in dragon form or using weapons. There was never a full explanation as to how the war was fought completely, because remember that degeneration still plays a factor if they turn into a dragon.

Let's see now, with SoV, even though Grima was not even NEAR the level of power that he has 1000 years later and then another 1000 years later, it took the power of Falchion, the "one and only godslayer" weapon to defeat him, and even THAT didn't kill him.

Even if its a different Naga, the fact that Naga has so much power that she can bend space-time, would indicate that she's not even considered weaker than the original, and yet she cannot kill Grima, but simply put Grima to sleep. 

Loptyr struck fear and damage to the continent for years, whereas Grima being around for years brought the entire WORLD to its knees. The very fact that Lucina and the others had to abandon their timeline to go to the past just proves that Grima is impossible to beat otherwise. 

Given how he was created, its no wonder he wants to destroy. He was literally created as an abomination. He has nothing but destructive urges and desires in his mind. He's a mixture of life and death literally. Its not the same as with Loptyr, who had plenty of common sense and reason as a dragon that lived its life to know that humans did nothing wrong and were just there, but still he decided to hate on them.

And for the record, I might find Loptyr petty, but that doesn't mean that I think he's bad per se. 

Grima's case on the vessel intrigues me. When, how, and why does he need it? Its not explained. Is the alchemist that created him the one that forged the blood pact? We don't know. 

Given the war, I find it hard to believe that not a single Earth Dragon died in there and they were ALL sealed. There'd have to be some around.

And even if there wasn't, there's still at least 1 Earth Dragon body that COULD be used: Medeus.

For all we know, the body of Medeus that he has in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery is actually a new one created by Gharnef. I mean, Gharnef was a spirit, but his pupils tried to resurrect his body to put the soul in. So its not out of the range of logic that the body Medeus has in those two games are not his original one.

So at least 1-2 Earth Dragon bodies were there to be used.

So do you admit you're claim that Naga would withhold a Falchion is absurd, then?

Everything indicates a Dragon's greatest power is their essence and breath. Hence why the Naga, Forseti, and Loptyr tomes are so powerful. Again, Kaga stated it held all of Naga's power and will. Until the event in Awakening, the Falchion contained none of the Naga's essence. It was literally just a fang removed from a Dragon's mouth and forged into a weapon. The Tome weakened like all weapons per Kaga's words. Again quit relying on fanon just put down FE4 in a a misguided attempt to make Awakening look better. 

Once again, Kaga specifically says Naga's tome possessed the user just like Loptyr and Forsetii. You're literally deliberately ignoring the words of the writer for the sake of putting down FE4.

Medeus hadn't regained all his powers when Marth fought him in Shadow Dragon, the artists drew him with wings because he was a Shadow Dragon at full power when he fought Anri. Again, why do you deny Shadow Dragons existed before Mystery of the Emblem, everything in the lore such as Gotoh's familiarity indicates Shadow Dragons exist.

You've repeatedly insulted Loptyr and the elements of FE4 while talking about Grima's superiority, your motivation is obvious. Again if you didn't hate Jugdral, you wouldn't be pushing these theories and denying all evidence for the sake of claiming Grima is better.

Jahn in Elibe mentioned Manaketes were weaker then humans in the Scouring. Naga likely had training in human form and experience, unlike the dragons in the Scouring who had no experience. Remember again, the majority of manaketes just don't think of using human weapons.

The war between the Loputo Empire and the 12 Crusaders wore on for 15 long years. The battle ended up dragging the entire continent into its fold. At long last Saint Heim overcame the Dark Lord’s incarnation, Emperor Galle the Seventeenth.

A villager again stating, Heim with Naga’s possession was equal to Loptyr possessed Gale

Naga couldn't kill Loptyr as well, only put him to sleep, so Grima is literally nothing new there. Even the regular Earth Dragons were too durable to die, hence sealing them. Loptyr wanted to make humanity suffer, Grima just wanted destruction and even had to rely on using the Deadlords as hand me downs from Loptyr.

Nothing indicates Grima's creations makes him biologically wanted to destroy unless Forneus wanted to destroy the world all along and Divine Dragons have a side we don't know about. Grima uses a vessel to stay sane without being a manakete, thats the whole reason he uses one.

ALL Earth Dragons were sealed because as Gotoh said, if they were killed, they’d just recover. Even if the sleeping Earth Dragons left husks which were used by Forneus, it wouldn't really affect anything for Grima as the spirit and the essence is gone leaving only a shell.

[omegaxis1]

6 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Naga made two Falchions, one of them long before her death, so the process can't be too taxing on her. Why didn't she just give the Crusaders a Falchion?

Exactly. Why didn't she make another Falchion for Jugdral? Mila even called it a weapon without equal. 

3 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

So do you admit you're claim that Naga would withhold a Falchion is absurd, then?

No, the opposite. Naga even giving a Falchion to a dragon that could easily use it against her is absurd, especially if she's already predicting the dragons to descend into madness. Unless Naga could predict that Duma would give it to a human? Would she be able to tell that about him? If she wants to protect the people of Valentia and give the humans there a chance, then by all means, giving Duma the Falchion to be intended to be used against him is basically telling Duma, "Here's a weapon that you have to give humans to use to kill you after you go mad."

"Sure Naga, I'd just love to have the humans stab my emo laser eye with the sword I could have easily withheld from humans to use."

Like I said the entire time, the only reason that this reason of Naga giving the Valentian Falchion is even occurring is because they needed a reason on its existence. However, IS has sadly given a rather retarded reason. 

3 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Everything indicates a Dragon's greatest power is their essence and breath. Hence why the Naga, Forseti, and Loptyr tomes are so powerful. Again, Kaga stated it held all of Naga's power and will. Until the event in Awakening, the Falchion contained none of the Naga's essence. It was literally just a fang removed from a Dragon's mouth and forged into a weapon. The Tome weakened like all weapons per Kaga's words. Again quit relying on fanon just put down FE4 in a a misguided attempt to make Awakening look better. 

Once again, Kaga specifically says Naga's tome possessed the user just like Loptyr and Forsetii. You're literally deliberately ignoring the words of the writer for the sake of putting down FE4

How is me explaining that Falchion is the stronger weapon in any way putting FE4 down as a whole? It doesn't. 

Also, again, let me remind you once again that if Naga put all her power and will into the tome, she would ultimately possess humans just as Loptyr did. It even never stated explicitly that she put ALL her power and will. Just that she did put her power and will. Forseti is different because he did place so much of his will into it as stated that the tome inherited his strong passion. 

Because if Naga did put all her will and power into the tome, then Julia and other users of the tome would be possessed as well. But none of them ever are. Because as Kaga DID state, Naga disliked interfering with the humans, and the process of even placing her will into the tome was a worrying decision. So no, Kaga never actually said that Naga possessed people in the manner that Loptyr or Forseti did. Her will influences people more, yes, but they never possessed them. 

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Medeus hadn't regained all his powers when Marth fought him in Shadow Dragon, the artists drew him with wings because he was a Shadow Dragon at full power when he fought Anri. Again, why do you deny Shadow Dragons existed before Mystery of the Emblem, everything in the lore such as Gotoh's familiarity indicates Shadow Dragons exist.

Have you forgotten that Medeus is a true Shadow Dragon only at the end of Mystery? He's called a Shadow Dragon by humans. I don't recall if Gotoh ever called him a Shadow Dragon in FE11. 

Werdna gave a good example of the case: Shadow/Dark Dragons aren't limited to just Earth Dragons, but rather it is a title for all dragons that have their powers corrupted. Duma even in SoV is referred to as a "Dark God" and despite him being a Divine Dragon, shows his figure and form to be darker and more menacing, indicating that his powers are corrupted. If anything, he's also showing to becoming or already become a Shadow Dragon as well. 

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You've repeatedly insulted Loptyr and the elements of FE4 while talking about Grima's superiority, your motivation is obvious. Again if you didn't hate Jugdral, you wouldn't be pushing these theories and denying all evidence for the sake of claiming Grima is better.

Its not that I hate Loptyr. Its more like I was disappointed with Loptyr overall.

Like, in the course of a great story that we've had in Jugdral, we have the final boss, the very dark god that's feared by so much and throughout the story was the product that Manfroy manipulated every event in the game, ends up having no form of personality whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, Grima is bad in that regard as well. But when I look at the overall cases of both their backgrounds, I feel as if its more disappointing to me on Loptyr's case. 

Couldn't we have had Loptyr's personality show a greater degree in FE4? All we see is that he turned Julius into a cruel and twisted person that wants to make humans suffer. But that's it. For a game that really showed an amazing story, Loptyr was just upsetting as a villain in the end cause he was basically a guy that hates humans just for the sake of hating humans. 

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Jahn in Elibe mentioned Manaketes were weaker then humans in the Scouring. Naga likely had training in human form and experience, unlike the dragons in the Scouring who had no experience. Remember again, the majority of manaketes just don't think of using human weapons.

Naga would need centuries of training to make a physically frail body be any way effective against the Earth Dragons that wiped out humans to the point of extinction. And even if she did train, its less likely that she got out of that war unscathed. 

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The war between the Loputo Empire and the 12 Crusaders wore on for 15 long years. The battle ended up dragging the entire continent into its fold. At long last Saint Heim overcame the Dark Lord’s incarnation, Emperor Galle the Seventeenth.

A villager again stating, Heim with Naga’s possession was equal to Loptyr possessed Gale

Naga couldn't kill Loptyr as well, only put him to sleep, so Grima is literally nothing new there. Even the regular Earth Dragons were too durable to die, hence sealing them. Loptyr wanted to make humanity suffer, Grima just wanted destruction and even had to rely on using the Deadlords as hand me downs from Loptyr.

Yes. A villager. Given the power of the Deadlords, and the Loptyrians, its obvious why the war dragged on. The Miracle of Darna allowed Heim and the other Crusaders to push back the Loptyrians and then finally make it to Loptyr himself. 

Loptyr was never put to sleep. In the case of Loptyr, the blood pact is what allowed his soul to live on. So long as someone holds Minor or Major blood of his, he can continue on living. It wasn't a matter that Naga couldn't kill Loptyr here, she failed to kill Loptyr, because Maira and his descendents lived on carrying Loptyr's blood. In the case of Grima though, its hinting that even bloodlines being killed would not end Grima, as Naga states that the only thing that can kill Grima is if Grima were to die by his own hand.

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Nothing indicates Grima's creations makes him biologically wanted to destroy unless Forneus wanted to destroy the world all along and Divine Dragons have a side we don't know about. Grima uses a vessel to stay sane without being a manakete, thats the whole reason he uses one.

ALL Earth Dragons were sealed because as Gotoh said, if they were killed, they’d just recover. Even if the sleeping Earth Dragons left husks which were used by Forneus, it wouldn't really affect anything for Grima as the spirit and the essence is gone leaving only a shell.

I am pretty sure that every case of where someone brings a monstrosity to life from living and dead, that creature always harbors the instinctive desire to kill and destroy. And said destroyer ultimately does destroy the world, twice. One in the original timeline, and the other in the Future Past timeline. Grima even goes as far as to kill Naga, though that's hinting that it isn't that he can't kill Naga, but rather can't kill the role of Naga, since Tiki took over despite how she was physically killed by Grima as well. 

As for the case of the Earth Dragons, while yes, it is stated that Earth Dragons don't fully die because of their lifespans, given how the war was so devastating, its not beyond the realm of possibility that several Earth Dragons had died, and the remaining ones were put to sleep under the Dragon's Table. 

You're forgetting that the "shell" is still a degenerated mind. All Earth Dragons apart from Medeus had gone insane. And Medeus also shows signs of being insane, particularly at the end of Mystery, since degeneration still occurs if Manaketes take their dragon forms. So if you use a degenerated dragon's mind, even if its dead or an empty husk of a sleeping dragon, Grima would inherit that degenerated mind that would instinctively harbor destructive thoughts. 

[Baldrick]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Exactly. Why didn't she make another Falchion for Jugdral? Mila even called it a weapon without equal.

That's what you need to explain. The only explanation I can see is that it wouldn't be strong enough to defeat Loptyr.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Baldrick said:

That's what you need to explain. The only explanation I can see is that it wouldn't be strong enough to defeat Loptyr.

Well, in my case in theories, one of them is that she either had no more fangs, or no more power to put into the fang. Even if you call it merely a tooth, the powers that Falchion holds is not limited to simply a tooth, as the blade never rusts or ages, can heal you, and somehow able to be tied to a bloodline. Given that Falchion is like the Crusader weapons as stated, its likely that it holds power like the Crusader weapons, meaning that Falchion would actually be similar to the Book of Naga. 

Given how the power of Falchion never waned over the years and still remains as the weapon that endured the test of time, and at full power can defeat even Grima, I'm holding it above the Book of Naga. 

Of course, for both of us, its a theory that could be true or false. The only evidence we have to go for ultimately is Awakening's time. Where Falchion's power was simply sealed and could be unlocked to full power, Book of Naga simply continued to weaken over time.

[Baldrick]

Falchion has never shown any side-effects of overwriting the user's will. If Naga was worried about that, why not make a Falchion with the power she put into the Book of Naga? I don't buy the "only two fangs" because why would she give one of her limited fangs to Mila and Duma on the chance they'd go rogue?

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Falchion has never shown any side-effects of overwriting the user's will. If Naga was worried about that, why not make a Falchion with the power she put into the Book of Naga? I don't buy the "only two fangs" because why would she give one of her limited fangs to Mila and Duma on the chance they'd go rogue?

Falchion has no side effects. Nothing but the thing where Lucina mentions that the sword is picky about its owners within the bloodline, as it doesn't even follow the Minor/Major blood that Genealogy follows. 

And she used 3 fangs total: 2 for Falchion, and 1 for the Shield of Seals. 

Since even I don't buy the "two fangs" business as well, I stick to the claim that Naga simply had no more strength to create another sword from her fangs, and could only just impart her power and will into a magic tome, so that it could hold just as much power as Falchion possibly, but comes with the issue where Naga's own will would influence the users. Though I claim that Naga's personal desire to not meddle in human affairs would mean her will wasn't as strongly placed in the tome, but still enough that it could potentially affect the host. 

I don't believe that the tome of Naga held all of her power and will in the case that otherwise, Naga's will would overwhelm the user and make it into a possession, and she absolutely didn't want that. Forseti's case is that his will was strongly placed in it more than Naga's but less than Loptyr's, because he was young and had a lot more compassion for humans, hence why he can possess Lewyn. Loptyr hated humans so much and desired to terrorize them so badly that anyone of his bloodline that takes it would be possessed and completely changed into a person under the mercy Loptyr's will. 

[Baldrick]

I still don't see why she created a book instead of using her fang. There's the weaker Falchion in SD, so I doubt that she was too weak to create a sword.

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

I still don't see why she created a book instead of using her fang. There's the weaker Falchion in SD, so I doubt that she was too weak to create a sword.

That was her reincarnation, Nagi, not the actual Naga.

Also, that part of SD is actually non-canon. Marth never met Nagi in SD, but rather in New Mystery. That's the weird thing. New Mystery shows that all the gaiden chapters are canon, but all your units lived through SD, which literally makes no sense since you have to kill units off to get the gaiden chapters. However, the one gaiden chapter that is not canon is the one at the very end in SD involving Nagi.

Because in New Mystery, when Nagi shows up, Marth says to Kris that he never met her, though remarked a familiarity with her.

[RJWalker]

Shadow Dragons existed before Medeus. Denying this is silly. Gotoh is all too familiar with Shadow Dragons so they had to exist before. Also the artist's intent with the art of Anri fighting Medeus is clear. They're depicting him as a Shadow Dragon. This is not in-universe incorrect depiction of Medeus that the characters believe. That's an artist showing us, the players, Medeus as Shadow Dragon. And this is after the body shape of Shadow Dragons was retconned.

Kaga has repeatedly stated that Loptyr and Naga are equals. 

And you can believe whatever you want in regards to how much 'will' Naga put into the tome but you'd be wrong because it's stated quite clearly that Naga transferred all power and will into it with no indication that this somehow any less or weak.

Also, it's not Loptyr's bloodline that allows him to live on. Julius had major Loptyr blood and he was a normal child until he was given the Loptyr tome that possessed him. It's not the bloodline, it's the tome. 

[omegaxis1]

6 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Shadow Dragons existed before Medeus. Denying this is silly. Gotoh is all too familiar with Shadow Dragons so they had to exist before. Also the artist's intent with the art of Anri fighting Medeus is clear. They're depicting him as a Shadow Dragon. This is not in-universe incorrect depiction of Medeus that the characters believe. That's an artist showing us, the players, Medeus as Shadow Dragon. And this is after the body shape of Shadow Dragons was retconned.

Kaga has repeatedly stated that Loptyr and Naga are equals. 

And you can believe whatever you want in regards to how much 'will' Naga put into the tome but you'd be wrong because it's stated quite clearly that Naga transferred all power and will into it with no indication that this somehow any less or weak.

Also, it's not Loptyr's bloodline that allows him to live on. Julius had major Loptyr blood and he was a normal child until he was given the Loptyr tome that possessed him. It's not the bloodline, it's the tome. 

You know, I honestly do not feel like continuing the argument in the case of Naga's condition, cause if there was no progress before, there's gonna be none now. You claim that its a direct mention that Naga and Loptyr are equals, and you may be right. But it wasn't said word for word, and I have my doubts on several aspects of plotholes that Kaga set himself on by not fully explaining things on the stories, from how long the war lasted, to how the Divine Dragons was able to win at their own extinction if turning into dragons is supposed to degenerate you, the Gemstones, and so forth. 

So for all we know, I could turn out to be right. 

I won't argue against the case of the Shadow Dragons likely existing before Medeus, because that's a very likely scenario. However, whether Medeus was a Shadow Dragon when he fought Anri is something I'm not completely sure on, given how even if Medeus' revival was 'incomplete' in Shadow Dragon game, it was stated that his power could be fully accessed from within his own castle, so that would mean that Medeus was at full power when he fought Marth the first time because they were inside his castle. Gotoh only referred to Medeus as a true Shadow Dragon only in Medeus' second revival, and we definitely saw him be a Shadow Dragon then.

Yeah, I am aware that Loptyr's power and will are held inside the tome. However, Loptyr can never return or anything if his bloodline no longer exists. No bloodline means that the power of his tome would ultimately break. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

You know, I honestly do not feel like continuing the argument in the case of Naga's condition, cause if there was no progress before, there's gonna be none now. You claim that its a direct mention that Naga and Loptyr are equals, and you may be right. But it wasn't said word for word, and I have my doubts on several aspects of plotholes that Kaga set himself on by not fully explaining things on the stories, from how long the war lasted, to how the Divine Dragons was able to win at their own extinction if turning into dragons is supposed to degenerate you, the Gemstones, and so forth. 

So for all we know, I could turn out to be right. 

I won't argue against the case of the Shadow Dragons likely existing before Medeus, because that's a very likely scenario. However, whether Medeus was a Shadow Dragon when he fought Anri is something I'm not completely sure on, given how even if Medeus' revival was 'incomplete' in Shadow Dragon game, it was stated that his power could be fully accessed from within his own castle, so that would mean that Medeus was at full power when he fought Marth the first time because they were inside his castle. Gotoh only referred to Medeus as a true Shadow Dragon only in Medeus' second revival, and we definitely saw him be a Shadow Dragon then.

Yeah, I am aware that Loptyr's power and will are held inside the tome. However, Loptyr can never return or anything if his bloodline no longer exists. No bloodline means that the power of his tome would ultimately break. 

The fact that Loptyr's death quote has him vow to return and seek vengeance not only flies in the face of this, but this isn't true- Loptyr would merely have to make another blood pact and tie it to the tome in the same way the Exalt bloodline became tied to Falchion by a pact made in the era of the first Exalt. Or even further, be incarnated into a new body by someone loyal to him.

 

and as previously said, its practically confirmed Loptyr DID return as Grima, and I've run down the list like ten fucking times now? Explaining all the identicial details between Grima and Loptyr- equal in power to Naga, cult with the exact same suffix, tome, bloodline incarnation (Julius/MU13), the most damning thing being the Deadlords who are outright confirmed by Intsys to be the same deadlords as in FE4/5, and the deadlords are loyal only to Loptyr (being pretty much a statement that Grima is, in fact, Loptyr reborn/reincarnated or else the deadlords wouldn't be playing ball with Aversa at all), both having a distinct loathing of Naga specifically which in Grima's case is largely unexplained if he's just a mindless monster seeking to destroy as insinuated in this thread earlier (which definitely doesn't seem to be the case here). All of this will make way too much sense to have Forenus or whatever the hell his name is be a not all upstairs Neo Loptyrian trying to revive Loptyr in a new body of Earth Dragons and succeeding.

 

i probably glanced over a few key points but I'm a bit tired of repeating them ad nauseum.

 

also, as an Archanea fanboy, I do not recall them ever once saying his FULL power can be accessed inside his castle; only that he can only assume Dragon form within the confines of his walls and is stuck in human form outside of them. Him having wings when he fought Anri is a subtle but important detail I missed because he does not have wings during FE11, only when fully revived in FE12.

 

also, idk if I mentioned this before, but Falchion weakened between FE12 and 13 as well, just like Ragnell and the Jugdrali weapons- both of which have been confirmed to inevitably lose their blessing and blood Links, respectively, prior to Awakening- and the Awakening ritual restores it to the power it had during Marth's era. If we take the Awakening prequel comic as canon, then Parallel Falchion is the result of a botched Awakening in Lucina's timeline, whereas Exalted Falchion- Literally, "The Divine Sword Falchion" in Japanese, which is the moniker it has in the Marth era- is fully restored to its power in the Marth era and also with Naga's essence it would seem. Falchion is not in any way better at retaining sacred power than the other regalia, it just might possibly be easier/more possible to recharge using the Binding Shield.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems