Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[Emperor Hardin]

36 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

If Naga was dead, how did Naga show up 2000 years very much alive in Awakening? I'm confused as to this point. I don't think there's an "original Naga" and current Naga... I'll admit I'm not entirely sure where Nagi fits into all of this.

I said named dragons. Not nameless, faceless masses.

The Naga of Awakening is suggested in the Art of/ Awakening to be a new character. Note Tiki never calls Naga or refers to her as "mother" or anything implying a relation.

4 hours ago, Mysterique Sign said:

And Medeus was the young prince of the Earth Dragons during the war and agreed with Naga's idea of becoming Manakete's, but then he went and started that war with humanity requiring Naga to intervene

She was dead at that time, Gotoh helped Anri against Medeus.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Salamud]

Nagi is Naga reincarnated. Her being a spirit can be addressed by looking at how much can happen in a millenia or two. 

[Emperor Hardin]

30 minutes ago, Salamud said:

Nagi is Naga reincarnated. Her being a spirit can be addressed by looking at how much can happen in a millenia or two. 

Nagi was after Anri, though.

[TheWerdna]

23 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

The timeline from SoV's official site makes it clear that the accord between Duma and Mila was forged some 3000 years before present day. Duma and Mila have never been to Jugral, certainly not during the era of the Twelve Crusaders.

Huh, this means they were banished a good 1500ish years before the war between the Divine and Earth Dragons broke out, which (at least as per previous games) was like 1600ish years before. This also meant they left long before the Manakete solution to degradatiom was come up with. I guess even after another thousand and a half years Mila and Duma never got that memo, thus why degradation is a problem for them still

[omegaxis1]

Yeah, one of Nagi's titles is said to be "Dragon King Incarnation/Reincarnated" and Medeus commented to Nagi like he knew her, and said that unlike him, Nagi revived much weaker, further indicating that Nagi is Naga reincarnated. After Naga died, Naga likely reincarnated as Nagi. 

And the Naga in Awakening can very well be a Divine Dragon that took the name Naga, because in Future Past 3, Tiki took the role of Naga as well. Naga pretty much became a title. 

But if the degradation of dragons lasted much longer, that... makes some sense. Given how long Dragons are shown to be able to live, Bantu being the biggest showing of it, that means that the degradation was a small issue that was affecting them little by little. They didn't notice at first, but eventually the decline began to spread further and further. 

[RedEyedDrake]

4 hours ago, TheWerdna said:

Huh, this means they were banished a good 1500ish years before the war between the Divine and Earth Dragons broke out

You're assuming that Duma and Mila started fighting more or less right after getting banished and then forged the accord afterwards. They could have been present for a long, long time before the forging of said accord, you know? The time spent between them first arriving in Valentia and them forging the accord could easily be more than 3000 years, thus being a longer period of time than the one that has passed since the forging of said accord until present day. And so far I have seen nothing to indicate that such a scenario is out of the question.

Edited April 8, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[omegaxis1]

Its just amazing how every form of conflict in the majority of the Fire Emblem verse (not counting the other realms of Elibe, Tellius, and Magvel) ORIGINATES in Archanea, where Valentia has Duma and Mila going to Valentia only because Naga told the edgelord Duma to GTFO (oh god, Werdna is getting to me!) and Mila decides to follow her brother around. Then Loptyr goes to Jugdral when the war with the Divine Dragons and Earth Dragons goes south for him. 

[TheWerdna]

23 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

You're assuming that Duma and Mila started fighting more or less right after getting banished and then forged the accord afterwards. They could have been present for a long, long time before the forging of said accord, you know? The time spent between them first arriving in Valentia and them forging the accord could easily be more than 3000 years, thus being a longer period of time than the one that has passed since the forging of said accord until present day. And so far I have seen nothing to indicate that such a scenario is out of the question.

Which actually means it might have been even longer.

[B.Leu]

22 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Its just amazing how every form of conflict in the majority of the Fire Emblem verse (not counting the other realms of Elibe, Tellius, and Magvel) ORIGINATES in Archanea, where Valentia has Duma and Mila going to Valentia only because Naga told the edgelord Duma to GTFO (oh god, Werdna is getting to me!) and Mila decides to follow her brother around. Then Loptyr goes to Jugdral when the war with the Divine Dragons and Earth Dragons goes south for him. 

Not gonna lie, I'll be salty as all hell if that was the case.
Next, they gonna say that Formortiss is related to the Earth Dragons or some crap, when it's clear it's not the case at all.
Inb4 people tell me it's Grima, cuz obviously, that's totally better. :p.

One good thing came out from it, it seems that apparently this whole Dragon Tablet plan was just as much as a protection for the dragons as it was for the humans, and well, it's cool because non-human always got the shaft in Fire Emblem.

Edited April 10, 2017 by B.Leu

[Emperor Hardin]

2 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Not gonna lie, I'll be salty as all hell if that was the case.
Next, they gonna say that Formortiss is related to the Earth Dragons or some crap, when it's clear it's not the case at all.
Inb4 people tell me it's Grima.

That'd be dumb beyond belief if Formortiis was a dragon, let alone an Earth Dragon.

2 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

One good thing came out from it, it seems that apparently this whole Dragon Tablet things was just as much as a protection for the dragon as it was for the humans, and well, it's cool because non-human always get the shaft.

Oh, where was this?

[B.Leu]

52 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That'd be dumb beyond belief if Formortiis was a dragon, let alone an Earth Dragon.

Oh gee, you think ? :p
Just you wait, the new meme of Fire Emblem: Dragons. Dragons everywhere. Or: Shut up it's dragons.

52 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Oh, where was this?

Mila basically state becoming mad is the destinty of all dragons. It sort of imply that locking them up in an eternal sleep until a solution come out would be the sensible thing to do.

It's still a blatant retcon (Hello Bantu, Tiki, Naga,,Nowi and Nah.), but one I can appreciate.

Unless Milaor the writer are BSing which is just as likely, but like I said, it's something that I can appreciate.

Though to be honest, I could have sworn, I had read something about it in another topic, but I can't seem to find it, so...

Edited April 10, 2017 by B.Leu

[Emperor Hardin]

3 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Oh gee, you think ? :p
Just you wait, the new meme of Fire Emblem: Dragons. Dragons everywhere. Or: Shut up it's dragons.

I remember someone pushing that as a theory and me rolling my eyes, pointing out the impossibilities. Also its boring to have Earth Dragons always be the antagonist, even Shouzou Kaga realized that. Especially when they have a point in not wanting to give the world and everything in it to a race that is in heated conflict with most races of dragons.

2 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Oh gee, you think ? :p
Just you wait, the new meme of Fire Emblem: Dragons. Dragons everywhere. Or: Shut up it's dragons.

Mila basically state becoming mad is the destinty of all dragons. It sort of imply that locking them up in an eternal sleep until a solution come out would be the sensible thing to do.

It's still a blatant retcon (Hello Bantu, Tiki, Naga,,Nowi and Nah.), but one I can appreciate.

Unless Milaor the writer are BSing which is just as likely, but like I said, it's something that I can appreciate.

Thats weird, even the super powerful Tiki can be kept sane by staying as a manakete with the complete Binding Shield/Shield of seals.

[Acacia Sgt]

Fire Emblem: Here be Dragons

Anyway, regarding the current subject, I would think the fact Duma and Mila left Archanea before dragonkind found the whole "becoming Manaketes" thing may impact what she knows or not knows on the matter?

[B.Leu]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I remember someone pushing that as a theory and me rolling my eyes, pointing out the impossibilities. Also its boring to have Earth Dragons always be the antagonist, even Shouzou Kaga realized that. Especially when they have a point in not wanting to give the world and everything in it to a race that is in heated conflict with most races of dragons.

Thats weird, even the super powerful Tiki can be kept sane by staying as a manakete with the complete Binding Shield/Shield of seals.

It's too bad that the writers themselves want to link everything to dragons. And everything to everything.

To be fair, back in the Archanea games, they weren't very clear either with Tiki and the Fire Emblem, so... *shrug*

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Fire Emblem: Here be Dragons

Anyway, regarding the current subject, I would think the fact Duma and Mila left Archanea before dragonkind found the whole "becoming Manaketes" thing may impact what she knows or not knows on the matter?

Oh hey, good point ! Unless they decided to fly back to Arch, they shouldn't know about Manaketes or dragonstones in the first place !
... So how are they still sane ? Sealing themselves shouln't do much, especially if they are still conscious to do things.
 

[omegaxis1]

You know what they say. Dragons make everything better.

Actually, the verse of Archanea (later Ylisse), which exists in the same realm as Valentia (later Valm) and Jugdral, dragons have likely to be the source of major conflicts. Unlike Tellius, where we have actual gods, and Magvel, that has actual demons, dragons have been the major things in Fire Emblem. Also, in a sense, one of the sense of wonders in this one is that gods in Archanea aren't truly gods, but dragons with godly powers. If anything, for most Fire Emblem, there are no true gods. 

I do agree that we shouldn't have anymore Earth Dragons as enemies. Actually, there has not been a SINGLE Earth Dragon that is good, and likely there never will. Medeus was once good, but humans screwed that up by becoming prejudiced against Manaketes, and Loptyr always hated humans. The rest of the Earth Dragons went insane, and the only being descended from Earth Dragons is Grima, and he's not even a true Earth Dragon, or a true dragon in general, but an abomination that exists between life and death created by a mad alchemist.

The thing with Manaketes is that it was a proposal made by the Divine Dragon elders. I think based on how we're seeing it, dragons always had the ability to take human form, but before, they could retain all the powers they held as dragons. However, when becoming a Manakete, their dragon powers are forever sealed away in a stone, meaning that Manaketes become as powerless as a true human without their stone. What drove dragons to madness was their own dragon powers. Now how this relates to Mila and Duma not being Manakets (I think), and them still being somewhat sane, is unknown.

[Lord-Zero]

Wow, great stuff regarding the Valentian Falchion. Now that makes me wonder what happened to it after Alm became king. Was it lost in time or...does Walhart have it in storage somewhere in Valm...? (Or post-Awakening Walhart takes it with him to the Outrealms) If this Falchion is anything like the Archanean/Ylissean Falchion, its blade should be intact or...Walhart smashed that thing until it was somewhat usable as an axe.

As for the remaining chapters, there's the possibility of those becoming available via Spotpass or DLC. 

 

@ Fomortiis: They can always go the Grima route and say that some of that crazy research Forneus did manage to find its way to early Magvel and some crazy alchemist there attempted to do the same but ended up creating Fomortiis and the demons instead. 

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Lord-Zero

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Lord-Zero said:

Wow, great stuff regarding the Valentian Falchion. Now that makes me wonder what happened to it after Alm became king. Was it lost in time or...does Walhart have it in storage somewhere in Valm...? (Or post-Awakening Walhart takes it with him to the Outrealms) If this Falchion is anything like the Archanean/Ylissean Falchion, its blade should be intact or...Walhart smashed that thing until it was somewhat usable as an axe.

As for the remaining chapters, there's the possibility of those becoming available via Spotpass or DLC. 

Basically from the timeline, Duma's Falchion that went to Alm was the first Falchion. Then after the war with the Earth Dragons, Naga made another Falchion as well as the Shield of Seals, and then with Loptyr, Naga had the Book of Naga made. Now, Walhart being possibly Alm's descendent, it makes some interesting sense. Think of this, Alm fought and failed to kill Grima. Walhart naturally feels it is his destiny to slay Grima. Also, given that the Fire Emblem can be used to unlock Falchion's true power, then Walhart could potentially perform an Awakening as well, if he's got the bloodline of Duma in him. 

[B.Leu]

I think multiple games already proven that dragons have overstayed their welcome. :p
Especially when the writers do crap. We talk a lot about Grima, hello Anankos. Like, fuck the dragons. They spoil everything in Fire Emblem nowadays.

Before I took comfort in the fact that it was gods that were in Gaiden, you know how I took that retcon. :p

There's also Elimine in the Elibe series who somehow ascended to Heaven by climbing a tower and joined God or something.. Heaven Ascended Elimine and her Stand, Aurora Over Heaven, eh.
And miracle miracle, dragons are not raging beast. and doesn't need dragonstones apparently, they 'just' went to war with humans, that caused an apocalypse (GG legendary weapons. :p)... but are also shown to live happily with humans in a desert village, in their true form. Though there's implication that Ninian and Nils had dragonstones that were stolen by Nargal, but that's doesn't change anything.

Let see just how much time it'll take before they screw that up.

If they retconed Formortiss as an alchemical thing, that'll be just lazy and dumb, imo. Like saying he's a dragon thing.
They already did that.

[omegaxis1]

In all honesty, I think the Demon King will remain as such. Unlike Grima, we get more info on him than we did with Grima. Grima lacked any and all forms of background information, and its only now that we are seeing some stuff about Grima, and already Grima's more epic just knowing that. Grima isn't some dragon or anything, no, he is an abomination, a creature that should never have existed, created using dark alchemy from corpses of feral dragons, and living blood from Divine Dragons (possibly Naga or Tiki even) and created this creature that's both alive and dead (Frankenstein much? XP).

I was actually glad to find out that Mila and Duma are in fact Divine Dragons. It just feels weird that one continent has real gods that meddle with humans, and then another continent had dragons hailed as gods. If they remake the Elibe and Magvel series, I would wanna know if they are planning on making the worlds be the same. 

[TheWerdna]

On 4/9/2017 at 9:29 PM, B.Leu said:

Oh gee, you think ? :p
Just you wait, the new meme of Fire Emblem: Dragons. Dragons everywhere. Or: Shut up it's dragons.

Mila basically state becoming mad is the destinty of all dragons. It sort of imply that locking them up in an eternal sleep until a solution come out would be the sensible thing to do.

It's still a blatant retcon (Hello Bantu, Tiki, Naga,,Nowi and Nah.), but one I can appreciate.

Unless Milaor the writer are BSing which is just as likely, but like I said, it's something that I can appreciate.

Though to be honest, I could have sworn, I had read something about it in another topic, but I can't seem to find it, so...

Actually, this could still make sense. Duma was banished long before when Naga made the decision for them to become Manaketes, so its entirety possible both Mila and Duma were unaware of this solution to avoid denagration. I mean, according to the timeline that was only 1500 years prior to the events of this game while Mila and Duma have been in Valentia for at lesst 3000 years (if not longer)

 

Anyhow, I don't think making Mila and Duma Divine Dragons was a bad thing, as they always did stand out as being a bit of of place next to all the other games of that universe. Since before they were the only gods in a world where every other "god" was merely a powerful dragon worshipped as one. Now, I think this should only hold true for the Archanea/Valentia/Jugdral-verse, as that's where the whole dragom thing makes the most sense from a thematic and narrative standpoint 

Edited April 11, 2017 by TheWerdna

[Emperor Hardin]

Duma's powers were darkness based, while Mila's powers were earth based.

[omegaxis1]

6 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Duma's powers were darkness based, while Mila's powers were earth based.

And Forseti was wind based. Its interesting how the Divine Dragons possessed powers and abilities that are not limited to just light element. What makes this more intriguing is that Jugdral, where even the dragon that gave Valflame, Salamand/er, might have been a Divine Dragon as well, rather than a Fire Dragon. 

[TheWerdna]

34 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And Forseti was wind based. Its interesting how the Divine Dragons possessed powers and abilities that are not limited to just light element. What makes this more intriguing is that Jugdral, where even the dragon that gave Valflame, Salamand/er, might have been a Divine Dragon as well, rather than a Fire Dragon. 

Exactly. Because of FE4, Mila and Duma's powers still makes sense given we see Divine Dragons who favored other elements.

Divine =/= Light

Edited April 11, 2017 by TheWerdna

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, TheWerdna said:

Exactly. Because of FE4, Mila and Duma's powers still makes sense given we see Divine Dragons who favored other elements.

Divine =/= Light

This actually begs the question as to whether the Divine Dragons were revered to be the most powerful because they were not limited to some single element, but aside from their normal Mist Breath attack, they possessed an affinity toward an element of power that allowed them to be exceptionally powerful. Naga definitely possessed the Light element, but Mila might not be as much of an earth element as opposed to a Life element. She is revered to restore the dead to life, and it wouldn't surprise me if Mila used her life restoration powers to bring crops to life. 

[Dark Kain]

Let me make a wild guess about the Echoes/Awakening/Genealogy continuity:

Grima was created from the corpse of

Loptyr.
Somebody travelled from Jugdral to Akaneia bringing both Loptyr's corpse and the Jugdralian holy weapons.