3+2=Pie

Class Designs Discussion

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How do you want the armor, clothes, and weapons of the classes to be styled in this game? How do you expect them to be styled? Should they be realistic and practical or fantastic and interesting? Which past FE game (if any) should they try to emulate? While the series is by no means new to fanservice, it has certainly ramped up recently with Awakening and especially Fates. Will they scale it back with this installment, or do you think it's here to stay?

Also, how do you think classes and battle models will be handled? In fates and awakening, a system of "uniforms" is used, where the exact same outfit is used for each class regardless of the character occupying it, including the color palette. This is likely due to the nature of reclassing in those games, but still: should this system stay? How should it be reworked or tweaked if it does?

 

 

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Much less fanservice, please. No more stupid battle panties and boob plates and junk. They're impractical and not even appealing in any way. The dark mage design really needs work too. It's looked really dumb in both Awakening and Fates, especially the latter, imo.

Also, GIVE WOMEN PANTS AGAIN. I'm tired of almost all of them being in skirts.

Edited by Anacybele

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I was pretty much fine with the way the classes in Awakening and Fates looked. I didn't have much of an issue with any class in particular, but I did think that some of the female classes had really questionable outfits. For one, the female Cavaliers and Paladins had their butts exposed... why?

Also, I agree with Ana that the dark mages could be given better outfits. I thought Sorcerers looked pretty cool in Awakening and Fates, but the Dark Mages were... odd.

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My major pet peeve that I know will never die, are the thigh boots/stalkings or just the boots that go past their knees (extra points if they have heels on it or something).  I think almost every FE is guilty of this and the whole time I just think of how uncomfortable those would be to put on everyday and wear all the time. The worst offender in my opinion is Catria (Fe12 version), just because of how tight it looks on her legs.

Spoiler

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I don't need every piece of clothing/armor to be super efficiently practical or realistic. Just as long as it would be reasonably comfortable, or something that would fit in the time period. 

I like Echoes's class designs so far, so hopefully we get more designs similar to that in the future.

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I think the only thing I want from the designs are proper pants on both women and men. I pretty much hated the Fighter class design in Fates, outside of Arthur, and I tolerated Charlotte in the Berserker class because I thought she pulled it off rather well. I will admit that I have a guilty soft spot for the Dark Mage class line - both the Fates and Awakening version - but I wouldn't mind a return to the more classic heavy robes, hoods and monocles of old for the class; that goes for both Dark Mages and regular Mages, by the way.

Like, the class designs are generally solid, but the absence of pants - or tights at the very least - for some of the classes perplexed me.

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I actually quite like Fates aesthetic if everyone just had the male version of the design. Except fighter, that one is just bad. Didn't like awakening's aesthetic much in general.

Actually I just want no gender disparity in the class designs in general. There's no reason a battle uniform should be different within a class outside of fit, if they serve the same exact function---with the exception of female versions of shirtless classes should have something that can function as a sports bra (because it is not fun to do highly physical activities without one), like Rinkah's bandages are pretty good. Individual character having deviations---even major deviations from the class design? That's welcome. I actually don't really like it when the characters follow class designs to basically a T with only palette and minor changes like no sleeves or something. As long as it fits the rough class aesthetic (ie an armor knight should have a lot of armor, a berserker should be reasonably buff, etc) and the character then whatever. But I really don't like that "if female, no pants" thing that FE has going on for fucking ever.

And no more fucking exposed panty type classes for any gender---I don't care of a Roman gladiator wore the equivalent look in fates fighter. You don't actually go to war looking like that. That's where people go to fight to the death for entertainment.

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9 hours ago, Carter said:

I was pretty much fine with the way the classes in Awakening and Fates looked. I didn't have much of an issue with any class in particular, but I did think that some of the female classes had really questionable outfits. For one, the female Cavaliers and Paladins had their butts exposed... why?

Also, I agree with Ana that the dark mages could be given better outfits. I thought Sorcerers looked pretty cool in Awakening and Fates, but the Dark Mages were... odd.

These are pretty much my thoughts exactly. I mean, I'm not bothered by a bit of fanservice, but things like female mounted classes not having any pants made me reluctant to use them because 1) If I'm playing FE on the go, it gives people the wrong idea and 2) It makes me uncomfortable to think of how chafed their legs are.

Basically, as long as no one's running around in their underwear, I'm fine with most previous games' class design.

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I think it was cool that they tried a different style for the dark mages in Awakening and Fates, but I'm really ready for the heavy robes and such to return. The Fates sorcerers had a few great and interesting design elements like the black wings on the back, but with all the see-through fabric, exposed skin, and visible butt crack on the female variant I just can't take the class seriously.

10 hours ago, Limstella said:

I like Echoes's class designs so far, so hopefully we get more designs similar to that in the future

Definitely agree. I also enjoy the return of characters of the same class wearing different clothes in Echoes. Just helps each character stand out and gives them each their own unique flair.

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I'd also like to see less fan-service outfits. When I hear "dark Mage" I think of something like this:

Spoiler

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I also prefer the more medieval type classes, (Awakening's Sage vs Fates' Onmyoji). So, I'd like to see more class designs in that setting. I'd like to see classes look like they are from Lord of the Rings, instead of "How can we make this character/ class show more skin?"

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I want characters to have somewhat functional clothing with a bit of fantasy flair. (Fates Mercenaries or Awakening's Tactician, for example) There should be no "fanservice" class like Awakening/Fates Dark Mages or Fighters, and there should definitely not be any unreasonable fanservice differences between genders. A girl wearing a modest skirt to contrast her male counterpart is fine. What's not cool is adding ass-windows to Armor Knights. I think PoR/RD and SoV hit this balance between functionality and fantasy well.

On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Limstella said:

My major pet peeve that I know will never die, are the thigh boots/stalkings or just the boots that go past their knees (extra points if they have heels on it or something).  I think almost every FE is guilty of this and the whole time I just think of how uncomfortable those would be to put on everyday and wear all the time. The worst offender in my opinion is Catria (Fe12 version), just because of how tight it looks on her legs.

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latest?cb=20100712013750Clarinelatest?cb=20170305062708latest?cb=20160930095751latest?cb=20160816011653latest?cb=20160821042141latest?cb=20170304185422Cordelia (FE13 Artwork)Felicia Artwork Expo(and Maybe Echoes!Celica, still on the fence with that one)

I don't need every piece of clothing/armor to be super efficiently practical or realistic. Just as long as it would be reasonably comfortable, or something that would fit in the time period. 

I like Echoes's class designs so far, so hopefully we get more designs similar to that in the future.

Heard you talking shit about my zettai ryouiki like I wouldn't find out.

(jk, can't do strikethrough on my phone)

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I don't mind as long as they look cool.

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16 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

 

Heard you talking shit about my zettai ryouiki like I wouldn't find out.

Trust me I got a whole list of them ready to go :3

  I really like Clair's design in echoes (how practical it is in battle is debatable), one of a handful of pegasus/falco knights that have leggings/tights that actually cover all her legs. please keep them while you promote

Edited by Limstella

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I for one do not want units to wear the same costumes as enemies, although with reclassing it might be an inevitability. In terms of reclassing, I can tolerate playable characters using enemy outfits when reclassing, however I'd like at least playable units base outfits to always be unique in some way. This annoyed me profusely during Awakening & Fates and became even more of a problem when a lot of the generic enemies you faced had cooler designs than the majority of the cast.

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I really like the aesthetic from Fates, except for Fighters which I think look silly. 

Something that I wish IS would do is ditch the "uniformity" among classes - for example, why on Earth doesn't Fighter Beruka wear her normal Wyvern Riding outfit? 

I'm fine with exposed cleavage and I think battle panties are good for a laugh but if the latter was gone I wouldn't really be bothered. 

 

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Honestly, I like realism but also think there should be some amount of fantasy in the design. Rule of cool: if you are going to do something unrealistic/inaccurate, at least make it cool. The Black Knight's armour: greatly oversized pauldrons and an oversized helmet, but it is very cool so I give it a pass (although the armour might look better if the pauldrons weren't as wide). The mercenary/hero armour in FE Fates: practical for the most part and, apart from the metal headband and the hero's helmet, is cool. Armour knight/General outfits in Awakening and Fates: seriously uncool; especially the shield that looks like something someone might find in an old abandoned car factory. The chestplate makes it look like they cannot lean forward, run, or even turn around, and the pauldrons, while better in Fates, still have dangling bits of metal that just make it look more silly than it already does.

I think fantasy armour looks its best when it is inspired by (inspired by does not necessarily mean based on) historical armour. For example: mercenaries in Fates are wearing a gambeson and possibly a brigandine, and when they promote they get a chestplate, pauldrons, a bigger shield, and an actual helmet. The cavalry armour in Fates looks like its inspired by both medieval and Roman armour, and I think that's cool.

One Fantasy cliché that I am glad FE for the most part has avoided is floppy leather armour. I see it all the time in thing like WoW, Vikings (stopped watching after episode 2), The Last Kingdom (these latter two being TV shows their creators insist on calling 'historical' even though they are terribly inaccurate), and the way it is designed is usually neither authentic nor cool. It usually just looks floppy and silly; especially studded leather. This is a perfect example of what I do not want to see in FE.

In short, I want designs that make sense.

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Like lots of people said, tone down the ridiculous fanservice. There is absolutely no good, in-universe reason why wyvern riders, fighters and armor knights (!) would inexplicably drop the pants and wear thongs on the battlefield.

Equal-opportunity armor, with both genders being as covered as their job entails would be the dream for me. Even when talking about classes they don't wear armor, can we have less female mages in miniskirts and more female mages in long robes or even - gasp - trousers?! Same goes for pegasus knights - Tanith still has by far my favorite pegasus knight design in the series, because she's wearing those elusive pants.

It's also a realism thing. Wearing pants to protect your legs when you riding an animal? Makes perfect sense.

Now I'm fine with more stylized armor and armor that doesn't necessarily make 100% sense (I'm a big fan of the Tellius designs, and their armor isn't necessarily realistic at all), but the key is making it feel believable. RD Gatrie's ridiculously hugenormous shoulder pauldrons are definitely not realistic, but they're cool, and believable in the game's universe.

I'll admit I don't like a lot of the strange ornamentation and bells and whistles that a lot of the 3DS designs add on to the armor, because in my opinion it makes the armor look cluttered and busy. You can go stylized, but give me at least some practicality in the designs. Tellius armor did it best for me in a lot of ways.

Edited by Extrasolar

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I personally don't really care much for ''it has to look practical/people wouldnt wear that' bla bla. in my opinion its a game and since the units on screen dont have real skin that can chafe im fine with the clothes looking impractical or fanservicy if they do they indeed look cool. like the fates and awakening dark mage lines. they looked really cool, and hey who doesnt like some exposed skin, i for one am thankful that they gave the men some sexy clothes too. 

however i do not like the battle panties, they just look stupid. my one wish is that we could get a female mage thats older than 15 and a little on the sexy side(like sonia from echoes) im kinda sick of the little girl mage thing

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On 4/17/2017 at 0:51 AM, Silverdawn77 said:

I personally don't really care much for ''it has to look practical/people wouldnt wear that' bla bla. in my opinion its a game and since the units on screen dont have real skin that can chafe im fine with the clothes looking impractical or fanservicy if they do they indeed look cool. like the fates and awakening dark mage lines. they looked really cool, and hey who doesnt like some exposed skin, i for one am thankful that they gave the men some sexy clothes too.

I disagree completely. The weird mesh body suit over underwear+Cape looks AWFUL. For both sexes. The bulky, tattered robes of classical Dark Mages/Shamans looks 100x better, and again, make way more sense now that Awakening/Fates decided that Dark Mages should have high physical defense for whatever reason.

It especially makes little sense in Awakening/Fates where Dark Mages continue the trend of being seclusive/reclusive people. Tharja/Rhajat has a general phobia/distaste of people, but hey, she's got rocking tits, so who gives a shit about designing an outfit she'd actually wear? Henry might actually wear something like that, but there's no contextual reason given for why he actually is. It's just "Oh, this guy with his underwear visible wants to join... uh... alright."

Ludonarrative dissonance is a thing, and it can seriously get in the way of peoples' ability to suspend their disbelief, which is never a good thing for fictional worlds. Fates/Awakening(Especially Awakening) seem to go out of the way to make you wonder why anyone is wearing what they wear. I don't think it'd be smart to continue this.

Edited by Slumber

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I'm guessing Awakening/Fates wanted to make out Dark Mages as hexing immoral sex addicts or something when giving them those outfits. And I find Mages in Awakening bad too- FE didn't need generic witches'/wizards' hats.

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Generic outside the series? Yeah maybe, sure.  Contained in the context of the series? Yeah not really, to my knowledge they're pretty unique beyond being a hat for mages. I'd say Generic is the similar hoods/hats that we had (well I can't account for thracia. and I guess the saga games outside the series)  in varying degrees for the 22 years before hand. 

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19 hours ago, Slumber said:

I disagree completely. The weird mesh body suit over underwear+Cape looks AWFUL. For both sexes. The bulky, tattered robes of classical Dark Mages/Shamans looks 100x better, and again, make way more sense now that Awakening/Fates decided that Dark Mages should have high physical defense for whatever reason.

It especially makes little sense in Awakening/Fates where Dark Mages continue the trend of being seclusive/reclusive people. Tharja/Rhajat has a general phobia/distaste of people, but hey, she's got rocking tits, so who gives a shit about designing an outfit she'd actually wear? Henry might actually wear something like that, but there's no contextual reason given for why he actually is. It's just "Oh, this guy with his underwear visible wants to join... uh... alright."

Ludonarrative dissonance is a thing, and it can seriously get in the way of peoples' ability to suspend their disbelief, which is never a good thing for fictional worlds. Fates/Awakening(Especially Awakening) seem to go out of the way to make you wonder why anyone is wearing what they wear. I don't think it'd be smart to continue this.

I think you're trying real hard to be offended by something your blowing out of purportion. Who are you to decide wether someone has a good reason to wear what they are wearing.

Let's pretend the units in the game are real people then. If Camilla decided to wear her clothes what would the issue be? Some people like looking good and there's nothing wrong with that. It gets a little into slut shaming territory. I thought you SJWs didn't like that?

 

Also just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad. Lots of people liked the sorcerer model in fates. 

I just don't get the hate with fanservice. Fire emblem has pretty mild fanservice on the whole, especially compared to other games. And honestly if you don't like it it's pretty easy to ignore.

I don't tend to like armor units, so I tend to not use them. I don't try and say armors shouldn't be in the games I just ignore them. The game isn't made for just me, it's for alot of people with different tastes.

Edited by Silverdawn77

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23 minutes ago, Silverdawn77 said:

Also just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad. Lots of people liked the sorcerer model in fates. 

I just don't get the hate with fanservice. Fire emblem has pretty mild fanservice on the whole, especially compared to other games. And honestly if you don't like it it's pretty easy to ignore.

I don't tend to like armor units, so I tend to not use them. I don't try and say armors shouldn't be in the games I just ignore them. The game isn't made for just me, it's for alot of people with different tastes.

Someone wearing skimpy clothing in a slice of life game? I'm fine with that- it characterises them, and it's reasonable in context.

Someone wearing skimpy clothing in the middle of a battlefield? The normal people barely wear chainmail as is! Tharja would get chopped in half by a well-placed sword stroke (and hint, she will, because she's a dark magic caster). Camilla is riding a wyvern less because it's her class and more because she's getting her legs chafed to uselessness.

(Also, don't double post).

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Just improve the famale designs.  Males look more or less okay (aside from Dark Mages sans Henry and infantry axes), but females... ugh.  Do away with the battle panties, please.

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6 hours ago, Silverdawn77 said:

I think you're trying real hard to be offended by something your blowing out of purportion. Who are you to decide wether someone has a good reason to wear what they are wearing.

Let's pretend the units in the game are real people then. If Camilla decided to wear her clothes what would the issue be? Some people like looking good and there's nothing wrong with that. It gets a little into slut shaming territory. I thought you SJWs didn't like that?

Way to jump to about 8 different conclusions. 

I don't dislike the outfits because they're offensive to my sensibilities. I don't give a shit about that, and never have. Those outfits are far too conservative to be offensive in any way. Camilla's a whole other bag of worms, but at least her outfit is something her character(Her awful, awful character) would wear. 

I don't like the outfits because they're fucking stupid and don't make sense for the most of the people wearing them. They don't do anything but take you out of the world to remind you "Oh, yeah. This is a video game, and some sweaty 40 year old in Japan probably designed because he thought the series was dead after this and didn't care anymore."

Look at it like this: Dancers in the series have historically been the one case where skimpy clothing actually made sense. Units like Sylvia and Lalum dressed in loose/revealing clothing because A. They're support units who hang in the back, away from combat, and B. Are dancers, who historically wear little clothing for allure and easy movement. 

Then Awakening gives you Olivia, whose main character quirk is being shy and self-conscious. They give you a unit whose clothes you probably wouldn't question in any other circumstance, then deliberately give her a personality that makes you stop and go "Wait, what?". It ends up being a combination of bad writing, bad design, and bad world building.

Even if they were able to somehow justify why Dark Mages legitimately walked around in their underwear in the story, and didn't make them physically tanky, the same would still go for recluse Tharja/Rhajat walking around out in the open in her underwear. 

Edited by Slumber

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48 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Way to jump to about 8 different conclusions. 

I don't dislike the outfits because they're offensive to my sensibilities. I don't give a shit about that, and never have. Those outfits are far too conservative to be offensive in any way. Camilla's a whole other bag of worms, but at least her outfit is something her character(Her awful, awful character) would wear. 

I don't like the outfits because they're fucking stupid and don't make sense for the most of the people wearing them. They don't do anything but take you out of the world to remind you "Oh, yeah. This is a video game, and some sweaty 40 year old in Japan probably designed because he thought the series was dead after this and didn't care anymore."

Look at it like this: Dancers in the series have historically been the one case where skimpy clothing actually made sense. Units like Sylvia and Lalum dressed in loose/revealing clothing because A. They're support units who hang in the back, away from combat, and B. Are dancers, who historically wear little clothing for allure and easy movement. 

Then Awakening gives you Olivia, whose main character quirk is being shy and self-conscious. They give you a unit whose clothes you probably wouldn't question in any other circumstance, then deliberately give her a personality that makes you stop and go "Wait, what?". It ends up being a combination of bad writing, bad design, and bad world building.

Even if they were able to somehow justify why Dark Mages legitimately walked around in their underwear in the story, and didn't make them physically tanky, the same would still go for recluse Tharja/Rhajat walking around out in the open in her underwear. 

sorry bout the double post

anyway, how i see it, i feel like it is fine for designers to prioritize a look over how realistic it might be. in particular im not the biggest fan of dark mages in awakening, but i like the sorcerer alot, male and female. in fates both the dark mage and sorcerer i love. also rhajat isnt wearing her underwear, idk what you mean by that.

i think your being a little ridiculous with this in a game where the armor knights are basically walking around in an armored car but the girl in a revealing outfit is too much of a stretch on realism. mages are also supposed to be units that hang in the back like dancers, so why don't they go in the same category? i'll admit the art designer for awakening is a bit out there with the class designs and im not a fan of the battle panties either but im not against fan service in a game if its not at a ridiculous level.

fire emblem isnt and never has been a game focused on being realistic. yes, units die permanently, but in real war swords, axes, and lances don't run out of ammo, you can't rub some powder on someone to heal injuries instantly, and sprinkling ...what... ''strength drops'' on someone won't make someone just stronger. its in the fantasy genre and its just that, FANTASY. it doesn't have to be realistic.

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