3+2=Pie

Class Designs Discussion

50 posts in this topic

Well to be fair, what you describe at the end isn't universal across all games. Of course weapons never breaking at all, eating food to heal wounds instantly (being just as or more effective than the medicine) and using magic rings to increase strength (and sometimes magic) is hardly more realistic. Heck magic rings should cover it. 

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Posted (edited)

As an aside, I always thought the Awakening Dark Mages looked ridiculous. It's like a hamfisted attempt at looking dark, edgy and dangerous but just ends up doubling back on itself and looking ridiculous. I also prefer the heavy dark mage robes. Simple, gets the point of across.

Though I never had anything against the wizard hat. Works for me, though I'm not opposed to the mage hoods (But can we at least get some consistency? Can female mages wear hoods too?).

9 hours ago, Silverdawn77 said:

I just don't get the hate with fanservice. Fire emblem has pretty mild fanservice on the whole, especially compared to other games. And honestly if you don't like it it's pretty easy to ignore.

The hate with fanservice is the fact that it objectifies female characters more often than not, when women in media in general have been oversexualized at the expense of fleshing out their characters and treating them as people, rather than objects to be consumed for the pleasure of people attracted to women.

And ordinarily, I would agree with you on FE having tame fanservice in comparison to a lot of other things...until the Camilla camera orbit on the Birthright path. That's completely inarguable 100% sexualization, and the camera goes out of its way to ogle her tits and ass.

When one of the game's main, dramatic cinematics is guilty of objectification, it's pretty damn hard to ignore.

10 hours ago, Silverdawn77 said:

Who are you to decide wether someone has a good reason to wear what they are wearing.

Here's the thing though. Fictional characters don't have agency. Nobody is judging a fictional character for its taste in clothes, because it is literally cannot make decisions; we don't criticize Camilla or Charlotte for their, ahem, "armor." We criticize the character designers, because they're the ones who drew it in the first place, simply for the aim of fanservice. Her tits are the first thing you see about her, and even in the Conquest ending they're the first thing you see about her. If a real women with a bust like Camilla's wanted to wear whatever the hell she's wearing, then more power to her. It's good that she feels comfortable enough with herself to do so.

But Camilla  has no agency. She didn't "decide" to have her 4DD tits hanging out for everyone to see and a battle thong when she's atop her wyvern. People, character designers, deliberately designed her that way to titillate people attracted to women, and they did the same (albet to a lesser extent) with Tharja.

Edited by Extrasolar

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Posted (edited)

31 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

As an aside, I always thought the Awakening Dark Mages looked ridiculous. It's like a hamfisted attempt at looking dark, edgy and dangerous but just ends up doubling back on itself and looking ridiculous. I also prefer the heavy dark mage robes. Simple, gets the point of across.

Though I never had anything against the wizard hat. Works for me, though I'm not opposed to the mage hoods (But can we at least get some consistency? Can female mages wear hoods too?).

The hate with fanservice is the fact that it objectifies female characters more often than not, when women in media in general have been oversexualized at the expense of fleshing out their characters and treating them as people, rather than objects to be consumed for the pleasure of people attracted to women.

And ordinarily, I would agree with you on FE having tame fanservice in comparison to a lot of other things...until the Camilla camera orbit on the Birthright path. That's completely inarguable 100% sexualization, and the camera goes out of its way to ogle her tits and ass.

When one of the game's main, dramatic cinematics is guilty of objectification, it's pretty damn hard to ignore.

Here's the thing though. Fictional characters don't have agency. Nobody is judging a fictional character for its taste in clothes, because it is literally cannot make decisions; we don't criticize Camilla or Charlotte for their, ahem, "armor." We criticize the character designers, because they're the ones who drew it in the first place, simply for the aim of fanservice. Her tits are the first thing you see about her, and even in the Conquest ending they're the first thing you see about her. If a real women with a bust like Camilla's wanted to wear whatever the hell she's wearing, then more power to her. It's good that she feels comfortable enough with herself to do so.

But Camilla  has no agency. She didn't "decide" to have her 4DD tits hanging out for everyone to see and a battle thong when she's atop her wyvern. People, character designers, deliberately designed her that way to titillate people attracted to women, and they did the same (albet to a lesser extent) with Tharja.

and whats wrong with that? i'm sorry, but people who wanted to see her like that are customers too. women aren't sexualized in fire emblem any more than the men are. all the buff toned exposed arms of (pick an axe wielder) or shirtless hunks like hawkeye,  and thats my point, hawkeye isnt wearing a shirt, noone complains that it isnt practicle. like the armor knight thing its ignored but god forbid if someone has some cleavage, or alot in camilla's case. im not saying the fanservice isnt there, if literally 80% of the female cast were bikini wearing strippers i'd agree with you, but as far as i can tell, theres usually a pretty well rounded spread of different looking units with a few fanservicy ones, for every camilla theres 3 hinokas. 

the fact is some people like the fan service so they get a bone thrown at them. i don't see why they cant have something in the game for them as well. its not like the character designers are saying all women should look like this, they decided that this one does.

i do acknowledge that the camera panning around camilla was a bit silly tho

Edited by Silverdawn77

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Silverdawn77 said:

and whats wrong with that?

What's wrong with objectification? Well, it relegates a female character to nothing but her assets, which is insulting and demeaning on several levels.

As a disclaimer, I'm not saying that there can't be more scantily-clad women or women wearing revealing outfits. But there's a huge, huge line between "revealing outfit done tastefully" and "has everything but what would bump the game up in rating hanging out."

Look at Nailah from Radiant Dawn. She shows a lot of skin, but it's never over exaggerated to the point that it becomes objectification, and the game itself focusing on her boobs and ass. She's still got an alluring/sexy design, especially in comparison to many of the other women, but it's in good taste. Camilla and Charlotte? Not so much.

12 minutes ago, Silverdawn77 said:

all the buff toned exposed arms of (pick an axe wielder) or shirtless hunks like hawkeye,

Those are power fantasy designs (like Conan the Barbarian and Hawkeye), which are designed to be wish fulfillment for men. Hey, look at this super ripped, buff as hell guy, man! Bet you wished you could look this good!

Not to mention, Hawkeye's exposed chest is meant to show off how muscular and built he is, not as eye candy for women. On the contrary, there is zero reason for a woman to be wearing a bikini and thong on the battlefield, except for fanservice purposes.

12 minutes ago, Silverdawn77 said:

noone complains that it isnt practicle.

Hawkeye is a Berserker, which are generally known for wearing very little armor and few clothes. It fits with his profession. They're glass cannons.

When you're a wyvern knight or an armor knight, you're generally very defensive and tanking through hard hitters. Wearing non-armor and a thong is counterproductive to that.

12 minutes ago, Silverdawn77 said:

the fact is some people like the fan service so they get a bone thrown at them. i don't see why they cant have something in the game for them as well. its not like the character designers are saying all women should look like this, they decided that this one does.

True, the character designers have designed more modest and toned-down women alongside Camilla and Charlotte, but it's a problem of scope. Camilla is so hyper-exaggerated in her fanservice elements that it eclipses the more modest elements. When you've got something screaming so loud, you tend to get drawn

And it's the fact that the fanservice aspect of just so played up about her, to the expense of the rest of her character (she's poorly written in the first place in my opinion, but the focus on her cleavage certainly doesn't help matters).

I mean, when a huge part of the reason Camilla was popular in the first place (before Fates even released) was because of her tits that the game itself emphasized (that goddamn cutscene)...

12 minutes ago, Silverdawn77 said:

women aren't sexualized in fire emblem any more than the men are.

I'm gonna have to stop you right here. Women are undoubtedly far more sexualized in FE (and in media in general) more than men are.

Edited by Extrasolar

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i mean if you compare the male and female fates class designs it's kinda undeniable that the women are way more sexualized

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Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

 

Those are power fantasy designs (like Conan the Barbarian and Hawkeye), which are designed to be wish fulfillment for men. Hey, look at this super ripped, buff as hell guy, man! Bet you wished you could look this good!

Not to mention, Hawkeye's exposed chest is meant to show off how muscular and built he is, not as eye candy for women. On the contrary, there is zero reason for a woman to be wearing a bikini and thong on the battlefield, except for fanservice purposes.

Hawkeye is a Berserker, which are generally known for wearing very little armor and few clothes. It fits with his profession. They're glass cannons.

I'm gonna have to stop you right here. Women are undoubtedly far more sexualized in FE (and in media in general) more than men are.

i will again give you that camilla was very fanservicy, not every instance of fanservice is tasteful or modestly. 

however i find you saying exposed skin on men is somehow just magically different than exposed skin on women, frankly insulting. if you believe that when women have their bodies exposed in clothing is demeaning or sexist as it treats them like a prop, but men shown in the exact same way as ''just a power fantasy'' you are limiting our bodies as a whole. why can't i see camilla as my ''power fantasy''?  i would love to look that sexy and kick ass at the same time. i also enjoy seeing the men in revealing outfits, so no its not just a power fantasy, and if you try and tell me no female player has looked at a hunky male player and ate the beefcake you going to hell for lying.

i do also agree on nailah, but as far as hawkeye is concerned, if his class being a glass cannon is excusing him then you should see charlottes outfit in the same light, they are the same class, but i guess that its also just different. mages in general wear flowing robes or dresses because as mages they aren't expecting to get in a melee fight, that would explain why alot of them are in a dress of some sort.

if you want to make a case for a female character that is done horribly, design and writing wise, why arent you talking about peri? i find psychotic bubblegum haired crazy bitch waaay more insulting than some tits in my face. and i can get into an evil character, hell it works with sonia from gaiden. peri is such a bad character shes a plot hole

Edited by Silverdawn77

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, Silverdawn77 said:

however i find you saying exposed skin on men is somehow just magically different than exposed skin on women

That's because it is different. Men and male characters simply don't have the history of being objectified, of being reduced to nothing but their bodies, that female characters have. You don't get camera pans in movies that ogle a man's body the way you get camera pans in movies, video games, television, and everything else that ogle a woman's body. Tell me honestly. When is the last time you saw the camera and/or the audience checking a male out the same way they did to a female, and when it wasn't played for some type of joke? I'll wait.

I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head. I know they exist, but they are far, far fewer than the ones objectifying women. Tarzan, Hawkeye and Conan may be wearing nothing but loincloths, but that's meant to mark them as "savage" so to speak, and powerful, primal and strong. Am I saying that no women and/or people attracted to men haven't appreciated them for their looks/bodies? No. Of course not. But that's not the authorial intent. These writers, artists and animators aren't depicting those men with the sole purpose of pleasing people attracted to men, whereas Camilla, Tharja and Charlotte's designs are designed explicitly to appeal to people attracted to women, logic and good taste being  thrown out the window.

Sure, you could argue that Charlotte being scantily clad makes sense for her being a Berserker, but look at a few of the male Berserkers we've gotten. Hawkeye is the least dressed, but put him in a thong or a speedo, and then come talk to me about him being objectified and him being equivalent to her.

Edited by Extrasolar

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Hawkeye, not needing armour because of low defence, huh? 1 I don't think he's really that big of a glass cannon. (and he has his own sprite so the class matters less) 2 He's wearing freaking armour, quite a bit in volume and general heaviness/quality (how many full gauntlets like his are there in the series anyway?) It just dosen't cover his chest/thighs, ect. 

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4 hours ago, Silverdawn77 said:

i think your being a little ridiculous with this in a game where the armor knights are basically walking around in an armored car but the girl in a revealing outfit is too much of a stretch on realism. mages are also supposed to be units that hang in the back like dancers, so why don't they go in the same category? i'll admit the art designer for awakening is a bit out there with the class designs and im not a fan of the battle panties either but im not against fan service in a game if its not at a ridiculous level.

fire emblem isnt and never has been a game focused on being realistic. yes, units die permanently, but in real war swords, axes, and lances don't run out of ammo, you can't rub some powder on someone to heal injuries instantly, and sprinkling ...what... ''strength drops'' on someone won't make someone just stronger. its in the fantasy genre and its just that, FANTASY. it doesn't have to be realistic.

Going back to this, I'd say it's more about consistency and being appropriate for the role the character has than it is about realism. For example, armor is depicted as being operating, so to speak - classes with high defense (knights/generals, great knights, wyvern riders) usually wear heavier armor than more squishy units (myrms, berserkers, peg knights). Because of that, I do raise an eyebrow when characters leave some vital areas unprotected, like for example Nephenee or the majority of peg knights who seem to have incredibly tough thigh skin. I'm not offended by it at all, but it feels off to me. OTOH, I don't really have an issue with skimpy designs when it fits the role - dancers or berserkers being the easiest examples. But I actually agree that Charlotte's design makes sense in a way. She's a (potential) berserker, and she's depicted as someone who isn't exactly subtle about seducing the men in the army. Similarly, Orochi's teasing character (and the fact that she's not a melee fighter) means that her fanservice-y outfit doesn't clash with her character. But Camilla is supposed to be 2nd in line of succession for the Nohrian throne, at least before Siegbert is born. And fantasy setting or not, her battle panties really don't scream ROYAL, if you ask me.

I should add that this is not necessarily about tittilation, but generally about odd clothing designs. In FFX, I found Lulu's fur-trimmed décolleté and... belt-heavy front much weirder than any fanservice the game throws at the player, considering that she lives on a tropical island. And although the outfit isn't particularly arousing, I do not think that Doc Snyder should be the inspirations for the coming bard design. :D

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I want customization and make cute outfits on my girls, that's all that matters.

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9 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

That's because it is different. Men and male characters simply don't have the history of being objectified, of being reduced to nothing but their bodies, that female characters have. You don't get camera pans in movies that ogle a man's body the way you get camera pans in movies, video games, television, and everything else that ogle a woman's body. Tell me honestly. When is the last time you saw the camera and/or the audience checking a male out the same way they did to a female, and when it wasn't played for some type of joke? I'll wait.

I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head. I know they exist, but they are far, far fewer than the ones objectifying women. Tarzan, Hawkeye and Conan may be wearing nothing but loincloths, but that's meant to mark them as "savage" so to speak, and powerful, primal and strong. Am I saying that no women and/or people attracted to men haven't appreciated them for their looks/bodies? No. Of course not. But that's not the authorial intent. These writers, artists and animators aren't depicting those men with the sole purpose of pleasing people attracted to women, whereas Camilla, Tharja and Charlotte's designs are designed explicitly to appeal to people attracted to women, logic and good taste being  thrown out the window.

Sure, you could argue that Charlotte being scantily clad makes sense for her being a Berserker, but look at a few of the male Berserkers we've gotten. Hawkeye is the least dressed, but put him in a thong or a speedo, and then come talk to me about him being objectified and him being equivalent to her.

im sorry but this is just some feminist lib class victim bullshit. this isnt about objectification, its a video game, noone was in a room drawing character designs up thinking ''this will show women to get back in the kitchen''

and no it is not different. and you know what even if you were right about the power fantasy thing, that is still a form of fan service. i just don't ascribe to that way of thinking, im going to just say we will have to agree to disagree, i don't see this going anywhere but the salt mines, and i don't feel like feeding you anymore of my time with a stupid feminist argument about how men being sexy is just different

12 minutes ago, ping said:

Going back to this, I'd say it's more about consistency and being appropriate for the role the character has than it is about realism. For example, armor is depicted as being operating, so to speak - classes with high defense (knights/generals, great knights, wyvern riders) usually wear heavier armor than more squishy units (myrms, berserkers, peg knights). Because of that, I do raise an eyebrow when characters leave some vital areas unprotected, like for example Nephenee or the majority of peg knights who seem to have incredibly tough thigh skin. I'm not offended by it at all, but it feels off to me. OTOH, I don't really have an issue with skimpy designs when it fits the role - dancers or berserkers being the easiest examples. But I actually agree that Charlotte's design makes sense in a way. She's a (potential) berserker, and she's depicted as someone who isn't exactly subtle about seducing the men in the army. Similarly, Orochi's teasing character (and the fact that she's not a melee fighter) means that her fanservice-y outfit doesn't clash with her character. But Camilla is supposed to be 2nd in line of succession for the Nohrian throne, at least before Siegbert is born. And fantasy setting or not, her battle panties really don't scream ROYAL, if you ask me.

I should add that this is not necessarily about tittilation, but generally about odd clothing designs. In FFX, I found Lulu's fur-trimmed décolleté and... belt-heavy front much weirder than any fanservice the game throws at the player, considering that she lives on a tropical island. And although the outfit isn't particularly arousing, I do not think that Doc Snyder should be the inspirations for the coming bard design. :D

i actually agree with you for the most part, id just argue that again if we are suspending disbelief on some designs we should on all of them. hawkeye wasnt that much of a glass cannon no, but his entire upper body is exposed, but a peg knight has exposed thighs, while on a flying horse, being realistic i don't think her thighs are what you would hit(again if we are being realistic) however hawkeye would fall to pretty much any blow. i guess what im trying to say is, im cool with a character design that looks cool even if it isnt realistic or if it wouldn't work in a real fight. i love hawkeyes design, idk sue me :/

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3 minutes ago, Silverdawn77 said:

im sorry but this is just some feminist lib class victim bullshit. this isnt about objectification, its a video game, noone was in a room drawing character designs up thinking ''this will show women to get back in the kitchen''

Yeah...I think we're done here. I should have known the second you used "SJW" non-ironically. You can be willfully blind, ignoring and simplifying my points all you want. Have a nice day.

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Posted (edited)

45 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Yeah...I think we're done here. I should have known the second you used "SJW" non-ironically. You can be willfully blind, ignoring and simplifying my points all you want. Have a nice day.

Nvm that was petty. You have a nice day as well

Edited by Silverdawn77

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5 hours ago, Silverdawn77 said:

i actually agree with you for the most part, id just argue that again if we are suspending disbelief on some designs we should on all of them. hawkeye wasnt that much of a glass cannon no, but his entire upper body is exposed, but a peg knight has exposed thighs, while on a flying horse, being realistic i don't think her thighs are what you would hit(again if we are being realistic) however hawkeye would fall to pretty much any blow. i guess what im trying to say is, im cool with a character design that looks cool even if it isnt realistic or if it wouldn't work in a real fight. i love hawkeyes design, idk sue me :/

That's not the issue with horse-units and lack of pants. Those aren't normal targets, yes (though what you're going to hit apart from the giant horse in the way, I couldn't tell you), but the thighs rubbing against the horse's back. And wyvern riders? Tough scales. You'd probably need leg armour just to protect yourself against your own mount's back!

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5 hours ago, ping said:

In FFX, I found Lulu's fur-trimmed décolleté and... belt-heavy front much weirder than any fanservice the game throws at the player, considering that she lives on a tropical island. And although the outfit isn't particularly arousing,

Never thought too much about Lulu's design, but now that you've said it, it is very much out of place. She should be dying of heat in it!

The outfit is fairly conservative though. A few belts on the upper part of the dress's bottom may be a bit out of place, and there is some topside cleavage being shown, which is mild fanservice at most. Top cleavage being fanservice or not depends a bit on the character's overall design. On Lulu's dress it could be construed as normal and acceptable, but on Hyrule Warriors!Zelda, it is clearly unrealistic fanservice.

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3 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

That's not the issue with horse-units and lack of pants. Those aren't normal targets, yes (though what you're going to hit apart from the giant horse in the way, I couldn't tell you), but the thighs rubbing against the horse's back. And wyvern riders? Tough scales. You'd probably need leg armour just to protect yourself against your own mount's back!

no i totally  see that, and yes the chafing would be real lol. but to me at least its on the same level of suspended disbelief of say, people getting hit with lightning and surviving, or being lit on fire, or again the fact that the armor knights can even move at all. maybe i havent been paying attention but don't the peg knights usually have long boots or thigh highs? And again im not a fan of the cavelier panty thing

but if you ask me what my fav designs were, id have to say tear ring saga. if we could get something like that again i would enjoy it

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I really liked Yamada Akihiro's artwork in Heroes (for Zephiel, Ogma, Jaigen and Gunter), so it would be a dream if he could illustrate for a full blown FE game. Although for him to do it would be very unlikely, so I'm just hoping for something closer to Shadows of Valentia's art direction atm. 

However if they do decide to go for more fanservice instead, so long as it's equal oppertunity I'm not going to complain.

Spoiler

Heck let's have everyone nekkid! NUDIST EMBLEM!!!!!! 

 

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The outfit is fairly conservative though. A few belts on the upper part of the dress's bottom may be a bit out of place, and there is some topside cleavage being shown, which is mild fanservice at most. Top cleavage being fanservice or not depends a bit on the character's overall design. On Lulu's dress it could be construed as normal and acceptable, but on Hyrule Warriors!Zelda, it is clearly unrealistic fanservice.

Well, in her victory pose she leans forward towards the camera, so I daresay fanservice still was a factor in her design process. ;) But as I said, I'm more puzzled about the fur than anything else. Or the fact that the group wanders the icy Mt. Gagazet in their default outfits, although I can forgive them for not wanting to put in an alternative design for all the party members.

Edited by ping

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Let's see...

Generalization: Less fanservice.

Dark Mages: Give them back their hoodies.

Mages: Cone hoods again, anyone?

Knights: The Archanean design is good.

Mercenary: Less soldiery/formal, more casual.

That's about it, really. Personally, I like the GBA designs. Also the animations. So cartoony.

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-No big witch hats on mages pls, draped robes and forehead gems

-No awkward exposed spots on armor

-If they bring back maids/butlers make them wear both wear pants and a blouse/dress shirt + vest

-More lightly armored peg knights

 

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Mage/Sage-i feel like what i've seen in echoes is how i want mages in the future. i love my female mages, and i have a thing for the long robes with a slit up the side, or both sides.  i honestly don't think ive ever seen a male mage design i didnt like, altho the male robins robes are my fave

Mercenary/Hero- i like the older games looks for them, sleevless arms just give them a cocky look and i feel like it fits

Armor knights- never a class i liked using, however echoes look for them i enjoy alot, cuz it gives them armor that they can actually move in.

Lord- kinda hoping for a lady lord but hey whatev. maybe move away from the blue for a minute.

Dark Mage- i would LOVE if dark mages got a more gypsy fortune teller look.

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What I'd actually like is to have some variation based on the host army; like a berserker from one kingdom could look different from another kingdom's. As for how that translates to design, I feel the easiest solution is to allow some customization for characters outside the MU; want the mages to have a hat, bam. want the usually-armored knights to be riding in battle thongs (with slight buldge for the gents)? done.

 

Being serious though, If they want fanservice, make it equal. Balance your shapely riders with exposed tits with shirtless cavaliers with sharply-defined pecs. Want to have mages with thongs, make it apply to both genders. I don't buy the argument of titillation vs. power fantasy; the execution is the same, and anyone trying to make that argument that there's a difference between male flesh and female flesh are just making excuses...

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I'd like to see class designs that adhere more to the GBA art style and have some sort of historical inspiration, if not accuracy (such as Great Knights as Byzantine Cataphracts for example, War Monks/Clerics in Crusader garb, or even Heroes as Viking foot soldiers)

As for fanservice, I have no problem with it as long as they keep it subtle (which probably won't happen).

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In general I want classes to look like how they did in the Tellius games with some inspirations from the GBA games as these classes look awesome. So far to date (I have not played Echoes so I cannot speak to well about that but it looks really good) the BEST class designs that I have seen were in the Tellius games compare Titania as a gold knight to Piere, or Jill at any tier to Camilla. Why some sprinkling of fan service is nice (Boyd not covering his arms in armor or Lyn's legs for example) it was all in good taste the current fan service is overdone and more like pandering Nintendo needs to scale it back. Overall the armor designs in the Tellius games looked sensible, practical and made sense making the characters seem like rational individuals and those in Fates seem oblivious to their own safety. The Marshalls look unstoppable, I love the soldier design, sadly there's no berserker so I would advise look at the GBA sprites and official artwork of notable Berserkers in the series past for ideas. Same thing with hero (Ike's hero class is really that of the mercenary and Vanguard looks like a combination of GBA hero and berserker).

I guess what I'm saying is I appreciate some level of realism but this is fantasy we need to find the right balance between the two. For example it doesn't make sense for Brom to not wear a helmet, but I admit I like seeing Brom's face. At the same time I don't want it to look like Fire Emblem meets bikini competition. Also realistically swords are much more slender than they appear in most Fire Emblem games same thing with axes but I get a kick out of seeing huge axes and swords swung around. I guess what I'm saying is we need a presence of both without one overshadowing or shoving the other out the window.

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In terms of class design I would say refer to the GBA games artstyle and official artwork and Radiant Dawn as Radiant Dawn has the BEST class design I have seen for their classes.

Let's take for instance the knight every tier of this class line looks defensible and is a great design and the Marshalls remind me a lot of the GBA generals they almost look the same. Although I miss the axe and lance animation where there was a rope or chain attached that allowed the general to reel it back in, I would like to see this again but otherwise I would like them to base their design off of what I've just described.

Soldier I enjoy the soldier class, Aran is an absolute beast and a great tank so I'm looking forward to using this class again in Echoes. I like Aran's design a lot, I like his boots and when he promotes he gets a big ol shield. When he becomes Sentinal though his get's a massive kite shield he almost looks like a Spartan (uh Greek Warrior not class) but with more armor.

Archer, is a great class but let's face it the reason I like archers is because.....Shinon. Now Leonardo can be a pretty good archer but he takes work however I do like his Sniper and Marksman design. Marksman is awesome and I want to see something either like this where archers shoot up to 3 squares away or what Gaiden did where the top tier archer is on horseback. GBA snipers also looked cool with their GIGANTIC bows. So again something like that and I'm talking about using these as maybe benchmark ideas I still want them to be creative and maybe come out with something even better but so far I have not seen it.

Cavalier, is an awesome class they are a class I use a lot. And again I love the design in Radiant Dawn first of all I like the horses they look strong but they also don't all look exactly the same either. Makalov has a different horse from Kieran who has a different horse than Titania ect. And when they promote to Gold Knight they look a lot like a historical knight including the drapings which I love. They're just missing the kite shield, guys a knight on horseback had a shield give them shields. Big, kite shields.

Fighters, Boyd is one of my favorite fighters however my favorite warrior design would have to be from the GBA games. I like their armored shirt or breastplate, the spiked pauldrons and the horned helmet. This is what I would like to see for warriors.

Mages, Monks/Light Mages and Shamans while I like the individual outfits for the archsage class in Radiant Dawn my favorite sage and druid class design comes again from the GBA games. The cloak looks so comfortable 10x better than the Fates/Awakening design. Also I love how druids caused a heal staff to levitate, but I'm thinking I would like to see magic work more like how it does in Gaiden.

Mercenaries I always enjoy the design of the GBA games with their massive swords. My favorite would have to be from GBA I like their armor, the belt they wear and the shield that their sword or axe goes into. A detail I want to see return again, give Heroes a shield that they slip their weapon into.

Pirates/Barbarians are awesome as they promote to Berserkers. I always like the helmet and armored glove that GBA berserkers wore and would love to see that return but with 3d modeling. Largo also had a cool design.

Now one of my favorites the Wyvern Rider or Dragon Rider in Radiant Dawn, use the four legged wyvern or dragon that not only the GBA games used but Radiant Dawn did as well this trumps the two legged designs every time. It looks bigger, better and stronger. The two legged ones always look like they're struggling to uphold their rider. I definitely love Harr's and Jill's armor it is the best I've see for any Wyver/Dragon rider unit up to this point. Nothing I've seen has surpassed it.

Pegasus have them like the GBA games or the Tellius games where it basically looks like a flying unicorn but the flying animation was the best in the Tellius games and again nothing I've seen has matched or surpassed it yet. However give pegasi better strength and defense. It's a FLYING UNICORN why is it so frail? Healers almost have better defense than pegasus. Alright yes I'm exaggerating there but you get my point.

Now I'm not saying "Copy" the GBA or Tellius games but use them as a benchmark or comparison of sorts. If you want the models in the next Fire Emblem game to be the best you have to beat the best which right now is the models and animations not to mention the music of Radiant Dawn. I want the Fire Emblem Switch to surpass everything prior to it, but there is some stiff competition ther.

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