Which Villains Will Appear?

[bethany81707]

5 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But the nostalgia for the first game is only there for a very select group of the fanbase. If you're Japanese that nostalgia might exist but if from the west then one most likely started with either Blazing sword or Awakening. Then when trying out shadow dragon you come across this generic wizard you've already seen done better and that is then the one you see getting special treatment. 

That's what makes it so off putting to me. It would be an attempt to please one select part of the fanbase over all the others who probably outnumber those that started with new history. The west is no longer some fringe demographic in the fanbase.

This argument, and a little further, basically sums up my hatred of the concept of 'first installment wins'.

A story about another franchise, for instance. My first Pokemon game was Diamond or Pearl (both found their way into my family, so my memory's hazy on which came first). This is largely because of my age: Pokemon Red and Blue are older than I am, and Pokemon just happened to be at Gen IV when I dived in: I have vague memories of the Heartgold/Soulsilver TV adds. My first starters were Turtwig, Chimchar and Piplup. My favourite was Chimchar, but I wound up using the other two in my many playthroughs following. Pikachu is an odd encounter off the beaten path (as in, you have no reason to ever go to where you can find it to beat the main story), and I never considered replacing my Luxray for it. Team Galactic was my first evil team, and man, did they set a bar.

And yet, when it comes to Pokemon's market, everything's "Bulbasaur, Charmander, Squirtle this", "Pikachu that", "Team Rocket for life". It took a long time for me to recognise that this is because Kanto came first, and a longer time for me to realise why this was so important.

So yeah, what @Jedi ninja'd me with is a good reason to pick someone from the first generation. But you will always have fans who look at that generation and tilt their heads in confusion, not recognising these strange people that claim to be characters in their favourite franchise. I knew what a Jeigan meant when I heard people call Titania that- because Slim and Fedule made sure to explain that. I did not know who Jeigan was, and if you showed me a picture, I would not have identified him.

[Folt]

18 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But the nostalgia for the first game is only there for a very select group of the fanbase. If you're Japanese that nostalgia might exist but if from the west then one most likely started with either Blazing sword or Awakening. Then when trying out shadow dragon you come across this generic wizard you've already seen done better and that is then the one you see getting special treatment. 

That's what makes it so off putting to me. It would be an attempt to please one select part of the fanbase over all the others who probably outnumber those that started with new history. The west is no longer some fringe demographic in the fanbase.

I believe Musou games often pander to Japanese fans.

Mostly because Musou games, much like Fire Emblem, was essentially a niché series in the west until recently. (Or still is.)

And of course, what Jedi said. I think we should expect at least one Jagen character, and in terms of villains (which is the main topic here), I think we should expect at least one Gharnef and one Hardin as fightable characters. And at least one villain is probably gonna be playable since a lot of them (whether old or new) has high potential for interesting movesets.

[Jedi]

13 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

So yeah, what @Jedi ninja'd me with is a good reason to pick someone from the first generation. But you will always have fans who look at that generation and tilt their heads in confusion, not recognising these strange people that claim to be characters in their favourite franchise. I knew what a Jeigan meant when I heard people call Titania that- because Slim and Fedule made sure to explain that. I did not know who Jeigan was, and if you showed me a picture, I would not have identified him.

Then on the opposite side of the spectrum you have the people who despise the current direction of a franchise and are upset if said new thing (lets use Lucina as an example). Suddenly gets tons of attention, I know quite a number of people who both like and a number who quite dislike Lucina, and she is heavily marketed. Even with her inclusions in Project X Zone 2 people were salty that she was "representing FE". In a crossover game and they felt it should have been the old guard. Like Marth & Roy. 

Long running franchises have to play celebrations/spinoffs very carefully due to this. Which is why I feel they'll appeal to the Japanese and their like of 3 and 6 while also using 13 and 14 for the main draws.

@Folt brings up an excellent point, Musou games usually only care about their Japanese audience initially, because they know it'll be well recieved in Japan, they eat that stuff up, while the west is a lot more apathetic towards the franchise as a whole.  

Edited April 15, 2017 by Jedi

[bethany81707]

1 minute ago, Jedi said:

Then on the opposite side of the spectrum you have the people who despise the current direction of a franchise and are upset if said new thing (lets use Lucina as an example). Suddenly gets tons of attention, I know quite a number of people who both like and a number who quite dislike Lucina, and she is heavily marketed. Even with her inclusions in Project X Zone 2 people were salty that she was "representing FE". In a crossover game and they felt it should have been the old guard. Like Marth & Roy. 

Long running franchises have to play celebrations/spinoffs very carefully due to this. Which is why I feel they'll appeal to the Japanese and their like of 3 and 6 while also using 13 and 14 for the main draws.

With single characters in massive crossovers, it can get potentially problematic, yes.

But in a game like this? It'll be ridiculously easy to fit everyone in. Trying to fit all six generations of Pokemon, or indeed, all six continents of Fire Emblem, into the one Smash game isn't going to be easy. But all seven continents (now that Fates exists) into a game whose cast size is lowballed at around fourteen?

You don't need to be a mathematician to spot the easy way out.

Honestly, part of the reason Smash (or indeed, other crossovers, but Smash is known for it) is so good at introducing other people to new franchises is because they bother to put in the obscure characters. I knew who Mario and Pikachu were when I first got Brawl- I did not recognise Zelda Link, Olimar or Ike. And now look at how much I like those franchises.

"Who's the Black Knight? I like how strong he is." *Oh look, Path of Radiance is finally on the VC* *People start buying the game now that Ike's been in Smash the Black Knight's been in Warriors and went toe-to-toe with Chrom.* *Path of Radiance finally gets the sales figures to stand beside its comrades.*

[Jedi]

6 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

With single characters in massive crossovers, it can get potentially problematic, yes.

But in a game like this? It'll be ridiculously easy to fit everyone in. Trying to fit all six generations of Pokemon, or indeed, all six continents of Fire Emblem, into the one Smash game isn't going to be easy. But all seven continents (now that Fates exists) into a game whose cast size is lowballed at around fourteen?

You don't need to be a mathematician to spot the easy way out.

Honestly, part of the reason Smash (or indeed, other crossovers, but Smash is known for it) is so good at introducing other people to new franchises is because they bother to put in the obscure characters. I knew who Mario and Pikachu were when I first got Brawl- I did not recognise Zelda Link, Olimar or Ike. And now look at how much I like those franchises.

"Who's the Black Knight? I like how strong he is." *Oh look, Path of Radiance is finally on the VC* *People start buying the game now that Ike's been in Smash the Black Knight's been in Warriors and went toe-to-toe with Chrom.* *Path of Radiance finally gets the sales figures to stand beside its comrades.*

It's not quite as easy to make Warriors movesets as you think, considering Koei likes trying to make everyone stand out with unique movesets more so nowdays and while they've done a good number with similar weapons, i'm not sure how many characters they can manage of FE Warriors. Base rosters of the original Dynasty Warriors & Samurai Warriors were really small and they are based on historical periods with literally thousands of people they could choose to make into playable people. 

Going back to the proper topic at hand, we are probably only going to get 2 or 3 villains, maybe 4 or 5 if they actually decide to do more than 20 or 30 characters.

I actually don't see the Black Knight being one of them purely for the fact that he's from Tellius, the Japanese didn't really get into Tellius and only really know who Ike is. If we get a powerful foe like that whos supposed to be like Lu Bu, it'll probably be Camus. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Jedi

[vanguard333]

There are quite a number of villains for them to choose. But, there are only so many archetypes that the villains fall under (note there is some overlap and the number of characters is not complete):

1. Heavily-Armoured guy with a powerful weapon: Hardin, Rudolf, Arvis, Zephiel, Black Knight, Garon

2. Cavalry; usually of the Camus archetype, but with some exceptions: Camus, Berkut, Petrine, Bertram, Walhart, Xander

3. Flier: Michalis, Ashnard, Aversa

4. (Usually Dark) Magic User: Gharnef, Julius, Nergal, Lyon, Lekain, Lehran, Ashera, Validar

5. Evil Dragon: Medeus, Duma, Dheginsea, Grima (who probably would be a stage or fought while possessing future Robin), Anankos

6. A joke in comparison/just a joke: Gangrel, Oliver

Medeus would be great as he can start as an Earth Dragon and transform into a Dark Dragon as an ability, and he's the original Evil Dragon bad guy and the second best in my opinion (the best being Dheginsea because he's not the big bad guy and because of his backstory and the several-hundred years of guilt and sorrow he has had to endure that made him a haunted man; which is similar to Medeus but, unlike Medeus, his backstory is explained better). Gangrel could make a decent minor antagonist if the game needs one. Oliver would be funny. If Duma gets in, it will be due to FE Echoes: SoV (same with Rudolf and Berkut).

Hardin and Black Knight are surprisingly similar; where Black Knight has blessed armour (which gameplay-wise could grant him temporary invincibility or a chapter where he's on the stage but you cannot hope to beat him), Hardin has the Darksphere. The Black Knight, however, is more iconic, so I would expect the Black Knight, but not both. Arvis would basically be an armoured fire mage, Garon has dragon transformation and goo transformation, and Zephiel, sadly, doesn't really have anything that sets him apart, except maybe his sword/lance weapon.

EDIT: Apparently, from what people below are saying, Hardin is rather iconic. But the Black Knight has appeared outside Fire Emblem (albeit as a Smash Bros. Trophy and as a Mii Swordfighter costume).

Cavalry-wise, Walhart, Camus and Xander are the most likely. Walhart would give some Awakening representation (though Gangrel could be used for that), and Camus is the best written of the three, but that's not saying much. Hard to say, but, in all likelihood, I think only one would get in at first and the other two would be reserved for DLC. The rest, aside from Berkut (and only due to Echoes), have almost no hope of getting in.

Fliers: I would be surprised if even one of them gets in.

Here is the problem: there are so many evil magic wielders in Fire Emblem. Some, such as Validar and Lekain, can be eliminated for being unlikely. But, that still leaves so many; each with something that sets them apart from the rest. Gharnef is the original, Julius is possessed by a dark dragon's soul inside an evil tome, Nergal has quintessense and morphs, Lyon is possessed by an evil monster, Lehran has both light and dark magic, and Ashera uses her "judgement" light magic and can turn all the minor characters on a stage to stone.

Edited April 18, 2017 by vanguard333

[Jedi]

Honestly I'd call Hardin way more iconic than the BK, gotta remember that FE1/3 and even 11/12 actually sold unlike fe9 and 10.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Jedi

[Folt]

22 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Honestly I'd call Hardin way more iconic than the BK, gotta remember that FE1/3 and even 11/12 actually sold unlike fe9 and 10.

On top of that, FE3!Hardin has the Gradivus which, on top of him being the original "Emperor" type enemy (well, kinda; Rudolf actually came first but he is very atypical compared to the usual "opposing king" characters, and FE3!Hardin codified a good deal of the things regarding that type) makes him rather well suited as an on-foot Lu Bu-type enemy in this game.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Folt

[Jedi]

3 minutes ago, Folt said:

On top of that, FE3!Hardin has the Gradivus which, on top of him being the original "Emperor" type enemy (well, kinda; Rudolf actually came first but he is very atypical compared to the usual "opposing king" characters, and FE3!Hardin codified a good deal of the things regarding that type) makes him rather well suited as an on-foot Lu Bu-type enemy in this game.

Could you imagine Hardin with Lu Bu's old Dynasty Warriors 4 grab and maybe GBA styled General hook shot Lances with Gradivus.

[Folt]

Just now, Jedi said:

Could you imagine Hardin with Lu Bu's old Dynasty Warriors 4 grab and maybe GBA styled General hook shot Lances with Gradivus.

Just looked that up and oh my God, that is awesome!

I am now going to be extremely disappointed if Hardin doesn't have GBA style General attacks with the Gradivus.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

No, please don't make me choose between Hardin, Zephiel, and the Black Knight. I want them all. 

[Jedi]

8 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

No, please don't make me choose between Hardin, Zephiel, and the Black Knight. I want them all. 

Man I just imagined that trio having like a special triple attack, and it looked really awesome in my head, I kind of hope we could have em all, but I don't think it'll happen

I just imagined Zephiels Musou being his crit from FE6, but hitting the ground causing electricity to hit in like an AoE.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Jedi

[Shadow Mir]

14 hours ago, Jedi said:

I actually don't see the Black Knight being one of them purely for the fact that he's from Tellius, the Japanese didn't really get into Tellius and only really know who Ike is. If we get a powerful foe like that whos supposed to be like Lu Bu, it'll probably be Camus. 

Speaking of, that's one thing that I had wondered - who'd be the FE version of Lu Bu (assuming that an OC isn't used for such)?

Edited April 16, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jedi]

10 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Speaking of, that's one thing that I had wondered - who'd be the FE version of Lu Bu (assuming that an OC isn't used for such)?

It'll likely be one of the many Camus type characters, as they are always shown as really competent fighters.

They may do a Honda & Lu Bu like rivalry thing (Tadakatsu Honda and Lu Bu were equally billed in Orochi as super power contenders) so they could do that with Ryoma & Xander if they so wish.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Jedi

[Etrurian emperor]

16 hours ago, Jedi said:

Honestly I'd call Hardin way more iconic than the BK, gotta remember that FE1/3 and even 11/12 actually sold unlike fe9 and 10.

I think Hardin might be one of the more iconic Akenea characters for both sides of the market. Hardin was one of the few characters given proper due in shadow dragon. From his introduction, honest chat with Marth and how other people speak about him we know what Hardin is about. His performance as solid unit with easy access to silver weapons is also bound to impress. Hardin's design with his white turban and cloak is instantly recognizable and while Hardin would go on to influence villains that inspiration has always been fairly subtle in comparison to Gharnef who's archtypes are clear clones a lot of the time. This prevents Hardin from standing in his successors shadow. 

But I think its a different and certainly lesser sort of iconic than the black knight. Hardin has a lot of things going for him but he never exactly stole the show in either game he's in. The Black knight however was a clear spotlight stealer with his intimidating presence, theme song and many appearances where he displays his might. When a western fan thinks of a Fire emblem villain I think its BK who would first spring to mind.

As for Hardin being a Lu Bu, I think that his character falls more into the general type like Cao Cao or Ieyasu rather than a straight up warrior like Lu Bu and Tadakatsu. Hardin is a warrior but he's a prince, emperor and commander as well. His fame as ''cyote'' seems to stem more from his commanding abilities against the invasion as opposed to his performance as a singular combatant. Giving orders and coming up with strategies would be a more suitable role for Hardin. 

[bethany81707]

Besides, Lu Bu in a Dynasty game is the guy who walks into the room and everyone knows "you run away from this guy". I'd argue that Volga from HW, despite being a pain to fight, failed in that regard, but I digress.

Hardin was always the story of a villain with a tragic backstory- his 'invincibility' thing came second. The Black Knight is the opposite: from the moment he walks onto the map, you run as far as you can in the opposite direction. (At least in PoR... RD Black Knight is much like Volga in that you never really run away from him). His backstory as a Branded is just kinda... well, it's there, but everyone knows the strength before it.

Zephiel sits somewhere in between- his strength makes the greatest imposition in the early story, but his fame as a tragic villain eclipses it in the second half and outside of his game.

[Thane]

On 2017-04-15 at 4:55 PM, vanguard333 said:

6. A joke in comparison/just a joke: Gangrel, Oliver

Maybe they'd be jokes, but I don't think I can come up with two Fire Emblem characters that would have sweeter movesets than those two.

I wonder what the risks are of Koei Tecmo going full TMS #FE on us, with only Akaneian and Ylissean characters appearing (though for this game I'm sure Fateslandia would be involved as well). I do hope they can find a way to honor the entire franchise, and at the very least offer good DLC for the titles that don't appear in in the initial release.

Of course, if they don't, then Walhart's inclusion is certain.

[Jedi]

On 4/16/2017 at 3:18 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

I think Hardin might be one of the more iconic Akenea characters for both sides of the market. Hardin was one of the few characters given proper due in shadow dragon. From his introduction, honest chat with Marth and how other people speak about him we know what Hardin is about. His performance as solid unit with easy access to silver weapons is also bound to impress. Hardin's design with his white turban and cloak is instantly recognizable and while Hardin would go on to influence villains that inspiration has always been fairly subtle in comparison to Gharnef who's archtypes are clear clones a lot of the time. This prevents Hardin from standing in his successors shadow. 

But I think its a different and certainly lesser sort of iconic than the black knight. Hardin has a lot of things going for him but he never exactly stole the show in either game he's in. The Black knight however was a clear spotlight stealer with his intimidating presence, theme song and many appearances where he displays his might. When a western fan thinks of a Fire emblem villain I think its BK who would first spring to mind.

As for Hardin being a Lu Bu, I think that his character falls more into the general type like Cao Cao or Ieyasu rather than a straight up warrior like Lu Bu and Tadakatsu. Hardin is a warrior but he's a prince, emperor and commander as well. His fame as ''cyote'' seems to stem more from his commanding abilities against the invasion as opposed to his performance as a singular combatant. Giving orders and coming up with strategies would be a more suitable role for Hardin. 

I wouldn't call the Black Knight iconic in any sort of regard however because he's yet another Darth Vader clone, and he doesn't stand out due to the poor sales of Tellius as a whole, alot more people would likely know Hardin than the BK, just from Sales alone. 

I honestly think more people would point to Nergal, Lyon or someone like Gangrel before they pointed to the BK. He might be iconic in Tellius itself, but not the franchise as a whole. 

But I do agree with Hardin falling more into the Cao Cao or Ieyasu kind of deal.

[TheZakkAttack]

TBH Zephiel, Nergal, and Lyon would be awesome. But the ones I want more are Ephidel (since we didn't get a fight with him in FE7 and we all wanted to punch him in his morph face), Sonia (because if they depict her in the game the same as her official artwork... well, there's gonna be a lot of money flowing in), Idun (so we get a bossfight that isn't 30 seconds long),  and Valter (because, like Idun, his boss fight was so freaking easy).

[a bear]

4 hours ago, Jedi said:

I wouldn't call the Black Knight iconic in any sort of regard however because he's yet another Darth Vader clone, and he doesn't stand out due to the poor sales of Tellius as a whole, alot more people would likely know Hardin than the BK, just from Sales alone. 

I honestly think more people would point to Nergal, Lyon or someone like Gangrel before they pointed to the BK. He might be iconic in Tellius itself, but not the franchise as a whole. 

But I do agree with Hardin falling more into the Cao Cao or Ieyasu kind of deal.

Not that it's necessarily the best metric, but the Black Knight had far and away the most votes for a villain (around 10-11k combined or 5k individually if I remember right) in the Choose Your Legends poll for Heroes. Also let's not forget his greatest moment.

[bethany81707]

6 hours ago, Jedi said:

I wouldn't call the Black Knight iconic in any sort of regard however because he's yet another Darth Vader clone, and he doesn't stand out due to the poor sales of Tellius as a whole, alot more people would likely know Hardin than the BK, just from Sales alone. 

I honestly think more people would point to Nergal, Lyon or someone like Gangrel before they pointed to the BK. He might be iconic in Tellius itself, but not the franchise as a whole. 

But I do agree with Hardin falling more into the Cao Cao or Ieyasu kind of deal.

I would also like to point out that the Black Knight appeared as a trophy and a Mii costume in Smash, while Hardin-as-villain failed to get out of Japan twice.

I believe Tellius's poor sales in comparison to its current following is strictly due to predating Brawl. I got into Tellius (and FE as a whole) thanks to Ike in Smash- who knows who else did.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

13 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

I would also like to point out that the Black Knight appeared as a trophy and a Mii costume in Smash, while Hardin-as-villain failed to get out of Japan twice.

Also, the General standing in front of the throne during phase 2 of Brawl and Smash 4's Castle Siege stage looks very much like the Black Knight. It's just too low res of a sprite to definitively say whether it's actually him or inspired by him.

[Folt]

14 hours ago, a bear said:

Not that it's necessarily the best metric, but the Black Knight had far and away the most votes for a villain (around 10-11k combined or 5k individually if I remember right) in the Choose Your Legends poll for Heroes. Also let's not forget his greatest moment.

 

12 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

I would also like to point out that the Black Knight appeared as a trophy and a Mii costume in Smash, while Hardin-as-villain failed to get out of Japan twice.

I believe Tellius's poor sales in comparison to its current following is strictly due to predating Brawl. I got into Tellius (and FE as a whole) thanks to Ike in Smash- who knows who else did.

That assumes that Tellius representation actually gets more than Ike at base though, which is not guaranteed by any meaning of the word. I don't think Ike is as guaranteed unlike many other people here, but he is a character who can pretty much appear without any of the people from the game he comes from by virtue of his character being a ridiculously strong sellsword who canonically travels the world at the end of his game. Whatever character relationships he can form could possibly be with any of the characters from the other games, and you could even get in a few mythology gags to Tellius using Ike and characters from other games as well.

(Not to mention that something like how Tadakatsu Honda essentially became the Lu Bu of Samurai Warriors could happen with this game.)

Edited April 18, 2017 by Folt