Let's clear some things up about Faye

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Alright, so lately I have been browsing the various FE forums and sub Reddits and have been noticing a lot of hate for a certain new character in Echoes, Faye. I have seen her compared to the likes of Camilla and Tharja and I have to completely disagree with this comparison. Faye, albeit not exactly the best character, isn't bad like the formers. Apparently, people seem to equate Bad Person to Bad Character which is just absurd. So, I would like to point to anyone who has concerns with Faye to read this: 

I am confident it will change your opinion on her. WARNING The post does have spoilers for Echoes.

Spoiler

 

 

[property of nuvelle]

Jesus Christ, that was a lot just to defend Faye Lol. Interesting interpretation of her character you have. 

Well, people are entitled to their own opinion. If they hate her or like her, it won't change much. For me, I'm kind of in between. I definitely don't hate her, but she's far from my favorites in SoV. I think my problem is that her character is entirely about someone else, similar to Tharja. While other seemingly unrequited love characters are noted for their love, they also have other traits that make them a character. Cordelia is noted for liking Chrom, BUT also for being a perfectionist (she also can find love besides him). Faye's lack of supports only hurts the character she could've had.

Another thing, I heavily prefer her over Tharja. Their obsession are pretty much at opposite sides of the scale. No matter how doting she is towards Alm, her "obsession" consists of an innocent childhood crush while Tharja... I don't even know. I don't understand where "creepy" comes from really when speaking of Faye. She's really working towards becoming Alm's ideal woman,(which she obviously never became or will be) by pleasing him with her actions, agreeing with him regardless of what he does, and staying by him always. I'm certain Tharja would've kept hidden and stalked him forever if Robin never found out about her.

I really wish she could've had a better end. Many of the other characters have bad endings, but only if someone close dies. It's really a shame that it's set in stone and nothing can change her outcome. They really didn't need to make her have a forced/unhappy marriage. (I always thought her and Lukas could've worked honestly, especially with his lackluster ending)

Just a minor thing, I always thought it was weird that Faye is older than Alm, Kliff, and Tobin, despite being the most childish of everyone from the Village. She doesn't seem like she needed to be older.

Oh, and this has nothing against her, but I think it's funny how her support bonus from Alm actually gives her a decreased Avoid rate.

[ZoeTrent]

34 minutes ago, KongDude88 said:

I think my problem is that her character is entirely about someone else, similar to Tharja. While other seemingly unrequited love characters are noted for their love, they also have other traits that make them a character. Cordelia is noted for liking Chrom, BUT also for being a perfectionist (she also can find love besides him). Faye's lack of supports only hurts the character she could've had.

I'd say that's what makes her worse than Tharja. Just like Cordelia, Tharja has an obsession with somebody, and interests and character outside of that. She loves dark magic and hexing, she has Noir and her various complex feelings about her and the difference between her and her future self, she makes connections with other people in Chrom's army and decides to not be a terrible person to them after interacting enough (for the most part), she talks about her family back home and bonds with Kellam over that, etc.

Tharja is a worse person though, but at least that's front and center and clear as day for people to see. I'd actually like Faye better if she was more like that, but the more important point here is that Tharja actually has much more going for her in comparison to Faye just like Cordelia, which isn't even to say much for Tharja, but points out one reason among a few people don't like what they have seen of her character.

Edited April 16, 2017 by ZoeTrent

[warchiefwilliams]

Your points are valid, and, baring any drastic changes in translations (unlikely, given that the damn game is going to be fully voiced, you can't do really change things last minute), you probably will not have to eat your words with a dash of Worcester sauce. If nothing else, your thoughts help to propagate the viewpoint that Faye is just as you describe; an immature young lady shaped by the worst aspects of her culture thrown into an unenviable position. If nothing else, the writers at least managed to a bit of subtle world-building if your analysis is correct, which is more than they did for Fates. 

Unfortunately, I don't pity Faye. Even though her situation demands some sympathy, her actions quickly earn my scorn. Whether its in her base conversations or in her supports, she, as you say, comes off being a selfish, immature brat only concerned with her perceived image of what her crush wants (without actually checking with him first as to what he wants). A result of the culture she grew up in, perhaps, but completely inexcusable regardless. My problem mostly stems from how no one calls her out on her shit. Giving how she hovers around Alm constantly, I would expect Alm to say something a lot sooner about his unwelcome satellite. Given Alm's assertiveness, why didn't he shoot down Faye's generally creepy advances (I've been in Alm's position here, it is fucking creepy) sooner? Why didn't any of the other villagers who have spent several years growing up together, or Mycen, the mentor-like figure for all of them, say anything? Why isn't any of this addressed?

Faye does represent stagnation, as you say. But why does she stay stagnated? As you brought up, Alm and Celicia are in many ways polar opposites yet they still come together for the good of the continent. They work through their differences, and it can be assumed that their partnership will help to slowly mitigate/fix the worst of both their respective cultures. So why doesn't that affect Faye? Faye's development through base convos and supports (and there should have been at least one more) should focus on how her stagnation, selfishness and apathy harms her and those around her. Maybe have her support with Alm end with her determining to try and fix this part of her personality, to learn how to be less selfish in this regard. Perhaps even represent that in game with her other supports being either A) locked off pre-A!Support with Alm or B) different post-support.  Perhaps if she A supports Alm, she can learn to move on, and her epilogue would be one where she learned to embrace the positive aspects of her culture, otherwise she continues to wallow in her self-induced misery. Gah, so many ways to improve Faye's character, so little time! I got to get some sleep!

At the end of the day, she isn't Tharja at least. So I'm not as pre-disposed to engineer any battlefield "accidents" ("I swear officer, I do not know why that person got caught in the trebuchet's firing mechanism. No I don't know why they dove in head first"). If nothing else, what worries me the most about Faye is the people who wrote her character. She had a lot of potential, as your analysis shows, and if they brought more of it to light, or shifted more focus on it as opposed to seemingly prioritizing her yandere tendencies, Faye could have been an amazing addition to Alm's army and could have been a more overt foil to Alm and Celica, representing the very cultural element that led to conflict (and the conflict the duo are trying to prevent from continuing) in the first place. She could have been that and so much more. Either the writers were planning for this contingency or something similar, but either decided that they couldn't hack it, and just left Faye unrefined, or they are just so bad at developing character's like Faye, they trigger discussions regarding a character from a game that has yet to even come out in its home country, let alone abroad. It's making me really worried regarding their ability to storycraft/develop-characters/craft-lore for the Switch game if an addition to a twenty five year old game causes this much ruckus...

Who knows, we might all be wrong. If that is the case, I will happily eat my words with Worcester sauce. Though given what we know from the data mine, pre-release stuff, and from FE Heroes, I think I can save my sauce for my Easter steak. Oh happy Easter by the way for those of you who celebrate it.

[property of nuvelle]

1 hour ago, ZoeTrent said:

I'd say that's what makes her worse than Tharja. Just like Cordelia, Tharja has an obsession with somebody, and interests and character outside of that. She loves dark magic and hexing, she has Noir and her various complex feelings about her and the difference between her and her future self, she makes connections with other people in Chrom's army and decides to not be a terrible person to them after interacting enough (for the most part), she talks about her family back home and bonds with Kellam over that, etc.

Tharja is a worse person though, but at least that's front and center and clear as day for people to see. I'd actually like Faye better if she was more like that, but the more important point here is that Tharja actually has much more going for her in comparison to Faye just like Cordelia, which isn't even to say much for Tharja, but points out one reason among a few people don't like what they have seen of her character.

That's a fair point. I probably overlooked a lot of things since I never really liked Tharja.

Faye is very clear with her purpose for her actions. It's literally all for Alm. She doesn't confess her dreams and her feelings until the A support, but she makes it very clear by going up to him with nonstop chatter and telling him that she's there even if Celica isn't (but she conveys this message in such a bad way). Even if it was clear to people that Tharja was obsessed, she never intended to be. I'm pretty sure Robin just caught her in the act and confronted her.

Oh, and I'm actually really upset right now because in Heroes, I tried to pull for Alm and got Tharja instead lol

 

I tried to edit my post to respond to the post above but couldn't quote it here, but anyways:

I think it's a little more understandable to dislike her character than to like. As I've stated, I don't hate Faye, but she's far from my favorite now. There's her Supports that make hurt her as a character, the base convos that hurt her as a character, and an ending that, in a way, hurts her as a character. The only thing that can really help her now is based on how people can interpret it.

I can't really say anything about how your experience with people making moves on you, but you have to understand how long these people have been close friends for. It's not like she came out of no where to hit on Alm. But, that opinion is yours. If you choose to dislike her, so be it.

Happy easter to you, too.

Edited April 16, 2017 by KongDude88

[ZoeTrent]

1 hour ago, KongDude88 said:

Another thing, I heavily prefer her over Tharja. Their obsession are pretty much at opposite sides of the scale. No matter how doting she is towards Alm, her "obsession" consists of an innocent childhood crush while Tharja... I don't even know. I don't understand where "creepy" comes from really when speaking of Faye.

I think at first, at least in threads I've seen, it was jokes, but being obsessive about someone in the way Faye is (almost literally only talking about her crush to the point of looking like she has no personality besides that) is also pretty creepy in itself anyway which only helps fuel the joke and make people annoyed and or creeped out by Faye.

Then the base convo's started coming out and now we have this (minor spoiler if you don't want to see more dialogue) http://imgur.com/a/X6Igc (god it took me way to long to find this so I could make this reply).

Also lol look at this page https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Faye/Quotes_(Heroes)

25 minutes ago, KongDude88 said:

Faye is very clear with her purpose for her actions. It's literally all for Alm. She doesn't confess her dreams and her feelings until the A support, but she makes it very clear by going up to him with nonstop chatter and telling him that she's there even if Celica isn't (but she conveys this message in such a bad way). Even if it was clear to people that Tharja was obsessed, she never intended to be. I'm pretty sure Robin just caught her in the act and confronted her.

I meant more clear about being a bad person and/or obsessive and creepy. You can tell Tharja is a creep just from looking at her and she is also creepy in her character and dialogue to the point of audacity.

And I didn't mean she makes it clear to the characters in the story that she is like that, but to the player.

25 minutes ago, KongDude88 said:

Oh, and I'm actually really upset right now because in Heroes, I tried to pull for Alm and got Tharja instead lol

lol sorry bro

Edited April 16, 2017 by ZoeTrent

[property of nuvelle]

19 minutes ago, ZoeTrent said:

I think at first, at least in threads I've seen, it was jokes, but being obsessive about someone in the way Faye is (almost literally only talking about her crush to the point of looking like she has no personality besides that) is also pretty creepy in itself anyway which only helps fuel the joke and make people annoyed and or creeped out by Faye.

I meant more clear about being a bad person and/or obsessive and creepy. You can tell Tharja is a creep just from looking at her and she is also creepy in her character and dialogue to the point of audacity.

And I didn't mean she makes it clear to the characters in the story that she is like that, but to the player.

 

I don't think it's creepy for the fact that they are close friends that have been together for a long time. Tharja used to be an enemy who decided to join Chrom.

Edit: Making sudden advancements that are unwanted is definitely creepy. Faye's case is very different as it's been a long time and Alm doesn't mind.

Well, I guess that's my bad for misunderstanding it being "clear". I kind of don't like the stalker/creepy trope though... Plus, it wouldn't fit her character of the childhood friend who supports protagonist.

Edited April 16, 2017 by KongDude88

[Thunderstar]

I can see why Faye could represent stagnation especially that Alm and Celica are often compared to Rigel/Zofia and Duma/Mila.

An another point that could be added, is that her wanting Alm is a bit similar to how the King of Zofia wanted Celica's mom and her not liking him.
Though at least she didn't force him to marry her.

However, the main problem I have with her is that, compared to all the other new characters (Conrad, Berkut, Fernand and Rinea) she doesn't do much in the story.
An another problem is that the game never really talks about that flaw at all.

Because of this, I am not sure if that's what IS wanted to do with her and it could be just seen as an another theory/headcanon just like how Camilla has a ton of them.

The closest thing we got is her third base convo where her family asked her to talk more about herself than Alm since she mainly sent letters where she talked about Alm's actions. She seemed to find that tough coming from them but sadly she doesn't seem to care that much then she said that she just wants to talk about him and the convo ends.

Seriously Alm should have just tell her to care more for herself than him. That's a shame because I found the last convo nice and interesting.
I must admit that now I want to see her dialogue when she's recruited by Celica.

For her ending, let's just say that the new harem master Kiran would take good care of her .

At least she gains bonus points since she she has a very good design compared to Tharja and Camilla imo and she doesn't threaten Alm or anyone unlike them.

[NekoKnight]

A theme as grand and overarching as what the OP theorizes is going to need more than a minor character with 2 supports and a base conversation to explore properly. Faye's flaws aren't discussed or examined as far as I'm aware.

You can do these "it's actually a brilliant deconstruction" theories with anyone. Here, let's do one with Peri.

"While on the surface, Peri seems a irredeemable psychopath, she actually represents the themes of Fates. First, Peri is a foil to the protagonist in that while they both had a parent murdered when they were a child, Corrin was able to grow up into a moral human being because of the influence of his siblings. Peri didn't have anyone like this and went down a darker path. Peri and Corrin are naive and don't consider the consequences of their actions, but where Corrin is horrified by senseless death, Peri enjoys it.The next theme is one specific to Conquest, which is stated multiple times by Xander. "Justice is an illusion". The just thing would be to throw Peri in prison for her crimes but as Xander values her competency in battle over the lives of innocents, there really is no justice in Nohr. Clearly the ends justify the means in this brutal world and Corrin demonstrates this stark reality when he makes the decision to conquer Hoshido to get a chance at dethroning Garon. Corrin is able to assist in the conquering of Hoshido but no one blames him for this, just like no one blames Peri. The game doesn't explicitly state Corrin to be a Karma Houdini but that's the central theme being implied.    

Yes, Peri is a terrible person but she's supposed to be. It's consistent with the themes of Fates."

Edited April 16, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

1 minute ago, NekoKnight said:

A theme as grand and overarching as what the OP theorizes is going to need more than a minor character with 2 supports and a base conversation to explore properly. Faye's flaws aren't discussed or examined as far as I'm aware.

You can do these "it's actually a brilliant deconstruction" theories with anyone. Here, let's do one with Peri.

"While on the surface, Peri seems a irredeemable psychopath but she actually represents the themes of Fates. First, Peri is a foil to the protagonist in that while they both had a parent murdered when they were a child, Corrin was able to grow up into a moral human being because of the influence of his siblings. Peri didn't have anyone like this and went down a darker path. Peri and Corrin are naive and don't consider the consequences of their actions, but where Corrin is horrified by senseless death, Peri enjoys it.The next theme is one specific to Conquest, which is stated multiple times by Xander. "Justice is an illusion". The just thing would be to throw Peri in prison for her crimes but as Xander values her competency in battle over the lives of innocents, there really is no justice in Nohr. Clearly the ends justify the means in this brutal world and Corrin demonstrates this stark reality when he makes the decision to conquer Hoshido to get a chance at dethroning Garon. Corrin is able to assist in the conquering of Hoshido but no one blames him for this, just like no one blames Peri. The game doesn't explicitly state Corrin to be a Karma Houdini but that's the central theme being implied.    

Yes, Peri is a terrible person but she's supposed to be. It's consistent with the themes of Fates."

God I love you.

[Party Moth]

A character can be a symbol/demonstration of a game's themes while actually having more than one single trait. That's no excuse for how poorly Faye is written.

[ZoeTrent]

4 hours ago, KongDude88 said:

I don't think it's creepy for the fact that they are close friends that have been together for a long time. Tharja used to be an enemy who decided to join Chrom.

Edit: Making sudden advancements that are unwanted is definitely creepy. Faye's case is very different as it's been a long time and Alm doesn't mind.

Well, I guess that's my bad for misunderstanding it being "clear". I kind of don't like the stalker/creepy trope though... Plus, it wouldn't fit her character of the childhood friend who supports protagonist.

I get that. That's all understandable, and I don't want to beat this dead horse any longer but just wanna say I like a morally bad character over a boring character any day. Faye is boring. Actually thinking about it Faye is a real example of what some people say all/most Awakening and Fates characters are. Boring, flat, and one note

Not to mention her quirk can be kind of annoying, and being honest I'm not fond of the fact that this is literally a female character who's entire person and life is centered around a man.

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

A theme as grand and overarching as what the OP theorizes is going to need more than a minor character with 2 supports and a base conversation to explore properly. Faye's flaws aren't discussed or examined as far as I'm aware.

You can do these "it's actually a brilliant deconstruction" theories with anyone.

 

54 minutes ago, Party Moth said:

A character can be a symbol/demonstration of a game's themes while actually having more than one single trait. That's no excuse for how poorly Faye is written.

Well said. I agree with both of these points. Honestly to me these giant theory posts about Faye seem like bs and I think people are really reaching

[Thunderstar]

3 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

A theme as grand and overarching as what the OP theorizes is going to need more than a minor character with 2 supports and a base conversation to explore properly. Faye's flaws aren't discussed or examined as far as I'm aware.

You can do these "it's actually a brilliant deconstruction" theories with anyone. Here, let's do one with Peri.

"While on the surface, Peri seems a irredeemable psychopath, she actually represents the themes of Fates. First, Peri is a foil to the protagonist in that while they both had a parent murdered when they were a child, Corrin was able to grow up into a moral human being because of the influence of his siblings. Peri didn't have anyone like this and went down a darker path. Peri and Corrin are naive and don't consider the consequences of their actions, but where Corrin is horrified by senseless death, Peri enjoys it.The next theme is one specific to Conquest, which is stated multiple times by Xander. "Justice is an illusion". The just thing would be to throw Peri in prison for her crimes but as Xander values her competency in battle over the lives of innocents, there really is no justice in Nohr. Clearly the ends justify the means in this brutal world and Corrin demonstrates this stark reality when he makes the decision to conquer Hoshido to get a chance at dethroning Garon. Corrin is able to assist in the conquering of Hoshido but no one blames him for this, just like no one blames Peri. The game doesn't explicitly state Corrin to be a Karma Houdini but that's the central theme being implied.    

Yes, Peri is a terrible person but she's supposed to be. It's consistent with the themes of Fates."

 

2 hours ago, Party Moth said:

A character can be a symbol/demonstration of a game's themes while actually having more than one single trait. That's no excuse for how poorly Faye is written.

Conquest's story truly is the Fire Emblem's version of the Godwin's law.

But yeah pretty much this as well.
Like I said before, it's pretty much how Camilla is defended as well all the time and how she has a ton of theories/headcanons.

People tend to use the whole "Concubine wars" to justify her behaviours even though we don't know a lot of things about it.

Sometimes they even make up stuffs that weren't in the game.
Once I even read that Camilla probably had lost one of her eyes, killed her own mom and some of her half-siblings.

[Yula]

21 minutes ago, Thunderstar said:

 

Conquest's story truly is the Fire Emblem's version of the Godwin's law.

But yeah pretty much this as well.
Like I said before, it's pretty much how Camilla is defended as well all the time and how she has a ton of theories/headcanons.

People tend to use the whole "Concubine wars" to justify her behaviours even though we don't know a lot of things about it.

Sometimes they even make up stuffs that weren't in the game.
Once I even read that Camilla probably had lost one of her eyes, killed her own mom and some of her half-siblings.

The thing is, people will go out of their way to defend Camilla for obvious design reasons...  I doubt people will go out of their way to defend Faye, because of her plain appearance.

 

The thing is that Camilla is what people in this fandom seem to consider beautiful, and while there is some hint of backstory that is tragic, she had Xander as her older brother. Xander had to be going through mostly the same shit and look how he turned out, but yet defenders flock to Camilla(and Tharja, who is actually a deeper character than Camilla, though that's not saying much >.>). 

 

So while Camilla will be defended to the end of the earth, Faye will be torn apart, torn down, set on fire and the ashes burned in a heartbeat. Ironically, *I* find Faye's design beautiful, yet, because my experience with actual women and being an author, I will admit openly that she is a poorly written character.

[NekoKnight]

36 minutes ago, Thran Starcrod said:

The thing is, people will go out of their way to defend Camilla for obvious design reasons...  I doubt people will go out of their way to defend Faye, because of her plain appearance.

 

The thing is that Camilla is what people in this fandom seem to consider beautiful, and while there is some hint of backstory that is tragic, she had Xander as her older brother. Xander had to be going through mostly the same shit and look how he turned out, but yet defenders flock to Camilla(and Tharja, who is actually a deeper character than Camilla, though that's not saying much >.>). 

 

So while Camilla will be defended to the end of the earth, Faye will be torn apart, torn down, set on fire and the ashes burned in a heartbeat. Ironically, *I* find Faye's design beautiful, yet, because my experience with actual women and being an author, I will admit openly that she is a poorly written character.

It's true that Faye is lacking two things that make Camilla and Tharja popular, but she is still charmingly designed. Quite the opposite, I've heard people make the case that people who criticize Faye are just upset that she's not a morally flawless waifu.

[Armagon]

I said this about Faye in another thread so i'm just gonna quote myself here

13 hours ago, Armagon said:

You know, despite all the things we've seen about Faye, I actually don't really hate her, for a couple of reasons actually.

1. A character has to actually try to make me hate them. Despite what we've seen from Faye, she hasn't tried hard enough to me. The only character in the entire series who has actually tried to make me hate them is Peri.
2. All of what we've seen from Faye is from the Japanese version of Echoes. We don't know if the localization is gonna keep her exactly the same or change her up a bit, and this leads to point #3.
3. Faye's portrayal in Heroes has actually improved my opinion on her. Yes, her dialogue is Alm-ost haha puns always about Alm but she's not being creepy about it. In fact, maybe it's just me, but in Heroes, she sounds genuinely happy, like that type of girl that has fallen in love at first sight and can't stop thinking about her crush.
   •   Reveal hidden contents

     Like, some of her Heroes quotes are ""You on patrol? Thanks for watching out for us! Pass a note to Alm, if you happen by him? Nothing much... Just a little "hi" from me!"

     and ""The Askran Kingdom is so pretty! I should visit all the nicest spots. I bet you can guess... with who."

     Maybe it's just me, but from these quotes, i get the feeling that's she gets genuinely excited about the very thought of Alm. Oh, and there are also some quotes about sewing flowers and making good luck charms. What i really liked was this line from her Lv.40 quote: "Funny how people can be so stuck on someone... that they don't see what's right there." She's basically admitting that she does obsess over Alm. 

     Also, taking a quick look at her summon quote ""I'm Faye. Glad to help. I've trained a bit with the Deliverance, you know, for Alm and all my friends." and her quote when she levels up 5-6 stats "For Alm and the others, I have to get even better!". Those two quotes suggest that while she's overly-attached to Alm, she still cares about her other friends.

     Of course, this could just be stuff exclusive to Heroes but honestly, Heroes has done a pretty good job of accurately describing and portraying the characters. And considering that the Echoes Focus is promoting Echoes, it'd be pretty weird if Faye in Heroes was portrayed entirely differently than how she is portrayed in the actual game. While a lot of people would still be disappointed that she's obsessed with Alm, i think people would at least prefer it if the localization made her more cheerfully obsessed with him rather than creepily obsessed.

On a related note, I heard somewhere that Faye has Base Conversations with Celica. I'm curious to see how that turns out, if it's a thing. Especially since Celica does get Support Bonuses from Faye (but not the other way around). I also find it interesting that Faye gets Support Bonuses from Mycen of all people. And it works the other way around too. And if I remember correctly, the whole point of passive Support Bonuses like that was that the characters' relationships are strong enough, that they get the bonuses from the get-go. Maybe that means something.

Anyways, I just thought i'd throw in my opinion on the matter. Feel free to agree or disagree.

 

[BANRYU]

4 hours ago, Party Moth said:

A character can be a symbol/demonstration of a game's themes while actually having more than one single trait. That's no excuse for how poorly Faye is written.

100% agree. Cordelia was a great example of this and it's highly disappointing that IntSys has put so little effort into this new character.

Even if there is something to the argument in the OP... I can buy that Faye was deliberately written as an asshole but it doesn't mean she's remotely pleasant or that I have to like her. So far she's easily shaping up to be my most disliked Fire Emblem character for representing that sexist anime trope I despise so much (more in the sense of 'why did you write a female character whose sole purpose is worshipping a man'), easily beating Awakening's Anna (whose sole personality trait was 'greed')...

1 hour ago, Thran Starcrod said:

The thing is, people will go out of their way to defend Camilla for obvious design reasons...  I doubt people will go out of their way to defend Faye, because of her plain appearance.

 

The thing is that Camilla is what people in this fandom seem to consider beautiful, and while there is some hint of backstory that is tragic, she had Xander as her older brother. Xander had to be going through mostly the same shit and look how he turned out, but yet defenders flock to Camilla(and Tharja, who is actually a deeper character than Camilla, though that's not saying much >.>). 

 

So while Camilla will be defended to the end of the earth, Faye will be torn apart, torn down, set on fire and the ashes burned in a heartbeat. Ironically, *I* find Faye's design beautiful, yet, because my experience with actual women and being an author, I will admit openly that she is a poorly written character.

42 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

It's true that Faye is lacking two things that make Camilla and Tharja popular, but she is still charmingly designed. Quite the opposite, I've heard people make the case that people who criticize Faye are just upset that she's not a morally flawless waifu.

While I appreciate the sweeping generalization, Thran (I don't, that's sarcasm), some of us have slightly better reasons for liking Camilla (and Tharja incidentally). 

I can say without a doubt that, from what I've seen so far and heard from a few people who HAVE played the game, Faye is a worse character than Camilla, which I think is saying something considering how relatively-barebones SHE was written (she at least has conversations with other characters that aren't related to her Corrin doting)... Camilla might very well arguably be a worse person, but she's definitely characterized less poorly (which again, isn't saying much). And I feel safe in saying Tharja is not only a better character but a better person lol. come at me, child abuse accusers, you got nothin' I guarantee

I'll be fair and reserve full judgment for when I see her in-game, but if she seriously has nothing substantial to talk about other than Alm, I think that's unlikely to change. 

 

The thing that I can't tolerate is the fact that a lot of the fandom seems to find the notion that defending Camilla/Tharja on the basis of their designs is not okay, but defending Faye for hers IS? I guess because she's not overtly sexualized? Even though she's shaping up to be a possibly-worse person and overall worse character in general?? 

And that just seems like a really shitty double standard to me. If you (addressing all readers btw, not necessarily the specific people I quoted) don't condone defending a character who you perceive as shitty on the basis of their design, then don't turn around and do the same exact goddamn thing just because you have a higher tolerance for 'cute/innocent' designs than sexual ones. That's stupid. 

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by BANRYU

[NekoKnight]

3 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

And that just seems like a really shitty double standard to me. If you (addressing all readers btw, not necessarily the specific people I quoted) don't condone defending a character who you perceive as shitty on the basis of their design, then don't turn around and do the same exact goddamn thing just because you have a higher tolerance for 'cute/innocent' designs than sexual ones. That's stupid. 

Why did you quote me? I didn't make a case for or against Faye/Camilla/Tharja being good characters based on their design, only responding that others do make that argument. I mean, I have opinions on the designs but that's not the basis of my like or dislike of them.

[Yula]

15 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

While I appreciate the sweeping generalization, Thran (I don't, that's sarcasm), some of us have slightly better reasons for liking Camilla (and Tharja incidentally). 

1. I understand sarcasm, I've been using it longer than most people on this forum have been alive.

2. If y'all want to like Camilla and Tharja, go ahead. There's a difference between defending someone for legitimate reasons and defending someone because, "Lel, anime breasts." We discussed this on discord. The thing is, I'm lazy sometimes and don't want to type out, "While some of you have legitimate reasons for liking these characters... the majority of people I've come across like them for their designs." and then have to go into a long winded explanation so I don't offend several dozen people while trying to get my point across. 

 

15 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

I can say without a doubt that, from what I've seen so far and heard from a few people who HAVE played the game, Faye is a worse character than Camilla, which I think is saying something considering how relatively-barebones SHE was written (she at least has conversations with other characters that aren't related to her Corrin doting)... Camilla might very well arguably be a worse person, but she's definitely characterized less poorly (which again, isn't saying much). And I feel safe in saying Tharja is not only a better character but a better person lol. come at me, child abuse accusers, you got nothin' I guarantee

I'll be fair and reserve full judgment for when I see her in-game, but if she seriously has nothing substantial to talk about other than Alm, I think that's unlikely to change. 

Never said that she's a better character. Not once, not ever, I said to me she's more beautiful. Those are two very different distinctions in my book. 

 

15 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

The thing that I can't tolerate is the fact that a lot of the fandom seems to find the notion that defending Camilla/Tharja on the basis of their designs is not okay, but defending Faye for hers IS? I guess because she's not overtly sexualized? Even though she's shaping up to be a possibly-worse person and overall worse character in general?? 

And that just seems like a really shitty double standard to me. If you (addressing all readers btw, not necessarily the specific people I quoted) don't condone defending a character who you perceive as shitty on the basis of their design, then don't turn around and do the same exact goddamn thing just because you have a higher tolerance for 'cute/innocent' designs than sexual ones. That's stupid. 

I'd like to point out that the whole point of the post I made was telling people to stop ignoring things they'd call bad character traits in characters they like the design of while simultaneously bashing the same traits in characters they dislike the design of. It's called consistency. That's all I ask of people, but sometimes, no not even sometimes, it almost always feels like that's too much to ask of people.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thran Starcrod

[BANRYU]

15 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Why did you quote me? I didn't make a case for or against Faye/Camilla/Tharja being good characters based on their design, only responding that others do make that argument. I mean, I have opinions on the designs but that's not the basis of my like or dislike of them.

...I think to illustrate the point of 'defending cute / condemning sexy is dumb', as the comment I quoted sounded borderline like a defense but TBQH I think I didn't read your comment or the context closely enough. ><

And let me clarify, I do think it's a perfectly fine design and I appreciate that people can like it, just don't condone defending her bad character on the basis of it (which I realize you weren't doing, is just something I've seen/heard happen elsewhere). 

8 minutes ago, Thran Starcrod said:

1. I understand sarcasm, I've been using it longer than most people on this forum have been alive.

2. If y'all want to like Camilla and Tharja, go ahead. There's a difference between defending someone for legitimate reasons and defending someone because, "Lel, anime breasts." We discussed this on discord. The thing is, I'm lazy sometimes and don't want to type out, "While some of you have legitimate reasons for liking these characters... the majority of people I've come across like them for their designs." and then have to go into a long winded explanation so I don't offend several dozen people while trying to get my point across. 

I'd like to point out that the whole point of the post I made was telling people to stop ignoring things they'd call bad character traits in characters they like the design of while simultaneously bashing the same traits in characters they dislike the design of. It's called consistency. That's all I ask of people, but sometimes, it feels like that's too much to ask.

That's true and I appreciate you acknowledging that. Yeah all I ask is that people have an informed opinion lol... Case in point, Ghast Station doesn't like Camilla, but also did an in-depth psychological analysis of her character, so I trust that his opinion is informed and stuff.

 

One thing I will say on behalf of Faye is the same thing that saddens me about Camilla: she seems very much like a victim of the sexism of the writers. In Camilla's case this comes in the form of her character development and plot involvement being sidelined for fanservice (her violent tendencies are never proven to exist by anything in the writing, which makes her seem like less of a threat or presence than she should be), and in Faye's case it comes in the form of her being a female character who exists only to worship a male character-- and while infatuation is a very normal, natural thing that can happen, and yeah it's a part of life and romance, it's pretty insulting to women when that's her sole defining characteristic.

BUT it occurs to me that most people in here more or less agree so perhaps I'm getting too up in arms without warrant ~__~ In which case, I should be aiming my points solely at the Redditor in the OP, and specifically addressing people in here is probably misallocation of this rant ;; Apologies if I've gone overboard, gents. Reigning it in.

Edited April 16, 2017 by BANRYU

[Armagon]

20 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

The thing that I can't tolerate is the fact that a lot of the fandom seems to find the notion that defending Camilla/Tharja on the basis of their designs is not okay, but defending Faye for hers IS? I guess because she's not overtly sexualized? Even though she's shaping up to be a possibly-worse person and overall worse character in general?? 

And that just seems like a really shitty double standard to me. If you (addressing all readers btw, not necessarily the specific people I quoted) don't condone defending a character who you perceive as shitty on the basis of their design, then don't turn around and do the same exact goddamn thing just because you have a higher tolerance for 'cute/innocent' designs than sexual ones. That's stupid. 

 

I agree, liking or bashing a character based solely on design is stupid. For me, I like both Faye AND Camilla but not Tharja and here's why. Tharja, unlike Faye and Camilla, is a yandere (or stalker, whatever). A lot of people are classifying Faye as a yandere, and I personally feel that she shouldn't be. For starters, Faye isn't going out of her way to get Alm to love her. Whereas Tharja would resort to hexes and voodoo and whatever, all Faye is doing is just being close to Alm. That's it. Going off her Heroes dialouge (as that's the one look we have at her localized version), she sounds genuinely happy at just the thought of Alm. Now yes, Faye does say in a Base Conversation something about obeying all of Alm's orders and she also says something about fighting enemies for Alm. But in the world of anime, you can say that and still not be classified as a yandere or stalker (example: Juvia from Fairy Tail).

Then there's the fact that Faye has known Alm since childhood. Despite being obsessed with him, she's known him long enough. Compare that to Tharja, who was just an enemy soldier until Chrom came in and recruited her. Because it was Chrom that recruited her, i'm surprised she's not going after him instead. And then there's the interactions. Looking at Faye's Supports with Alm, Alm doesn't feel awkward around Faye. He even says "She gets so excited over little things. Maybe I should learn from her" and then in their A-Support "I only found those things because of you all helping me along the way. Thank you, Faye. I'm glad we could have this journey together." Alm in no way is creeped out by Faye. Now compare this to Robin's Supports with Tharja. In those Supports, Robin is very much creeped out by Tharja, which makes sense. I too would be creeped out if someone was watching me sleep, taking notes of how many times I turned over while sleeping.

 

As for Camilla, what made me like her was her Supports with Niles. I truly believe that's one of the best Supports in Fates. Yes, Camilla does obsess over Corrin, but she's got a legitimate reason.

I will agree that Faye should've been more than just "Alm love me pls", but I'm not really mad about it. When Faye's character was revealed thanks to the datamines, I figured people would dislike her, but I didn't think it would be this much. I personally do feel that Faye is getting too much undeserved hate.

[KliffIsTheOG]

1 hour ago, BANRYU said:

One thing I will say on behalf of Faye is the same thing that saddens me about Camilla: she seems very much like a victim of the sexism of the writers.

Given the fact that there are strong women in this game, and in the series (Lyn, Celica, May, the priestesses, etc.) I argue that the writers are not being sexist. Considering the fact that there are women in real life who have these characteristics, would it not be sexist to ONLY include strong women, while ignoring and not representing those who are imperfect? 

[BANRYU]

41 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I agree, liking or bashing a character based solely on design is stupid. For me, I like both Faye AND Camilla but not Tharja and here's why. Tharja, unlike Faye and Camilla, is a yandere (or stalker, whatever). A lot of people are classifying Faye as a yandere, and I personally feel that she shouldn't be. For starters, Faye isn't going out of her way to get Alm to love her. Whereas Tharja would resort to hexes and voodoo and whatever, all Faye is doing is just being close to Alm. That's it. Going off her Heroes dialouge (as that's the one look we have at her localized version), she sounds genuinely happy at just the thought of Alm. Now yes, Faye does say in a Base Conversation something about obeying all of Alm's orders and she also says something about fighting enemies for Alm. But in the world of anime, you can say that and still not be classified as a yandere or stalker (example: Juvia from Fairy Tail).

Then there's the fact that Faye has known Alm since childhood. Despite being obsessed with him, she's known him long enough. Compare that to Tharja, who was just an enemy soldier until Chrom came in and recruited her. Because it was Chrom that recruited her, i'm surprised she's not going after him instead. And then there's the interactions. Looking at Faye's Supports with Alm, Alm doesn't feel awkward around Faye. He even says "She gets so excited over little things. Maybe I should learn from her" and then in their A-Support "I only found those things because of you all helping me along the way. Thank you, Faye. I'm glad we could have this journey together." Alm in no way is creeped out by Faye. Now compare this to Robin's Supports with Tharja. In those Supports, Robin is very much creeped out by Tharja, which makes sense. I too would be creeped out if someone was watching me sleep, taking notes of how many times I turned over while sleeping.

 

As for Camilla, what made me like her was her Supports with Niles. I truly believe that's one of the best Supports in Fates. Yes, Camilla does obsess over Corrin, but she's got a legitimate reason.

I will agree that Faye should've been more than just "Alm love me pls", but I'm not really mad about it. When Faye's character was revealed thanks to the datamines, I figured people would dislike her, but I didn't think it would be this much. I personally do feel that Faye is getting too much undeserved hate.

There IS the difference between Tharja and Faye in that the latter was (presumably, as far as I know) raised in a generic normal anime village, while Tharja was raised by a violent, fanatical cult-- not too surprising the way she treats Robin when you consider what they really are lol (though Robin, being perfectly normal as far as they know, is creeped out and that's understandable too lol). All things considered, Tharja's not that bad IMO, and her intentions are generally sincere even if her methods are highly dubious.

Mostly Faye bothers me because I worry that if enough apologists are willing to defend her on the basis of her cute, innocent design, IntSys might think that Faye is more popular than she deserves to be, and might continue this trend of shoddy Catria ripoffs with no defining character traits. It's especially worrying that they seem to be deliberately pushing for her to be a popular character -sideyes her appearance in FE Heroes-

38 minutes ago, KliffIsTheOG said:

Given the fact that there are strong women in this game, and in the series (Lyn, Celica, May, the priestesses, etc.) I argue that the writers are not being sexist. Considering the fact that there are women in real life who have these characteristics, would it not be sexist to ONLY include strong women, while ignoring and not representing those who are imperfect? 

The problem with this argument is that Faye is the ONLY new character in this game-- Celica had her character more or less established years ago, and is simply being adapted and updated for now. Considering how many women of both varieties there were in Awakening (Lucina, Say'ri, Flavia, and Tiki all being characters with a lot of plot agency, positions of political significance, or both, while you have Lissa being a constant passive presence in a good way and delicate characters like Olivia treated with respect by both the game and the characters in it), I find it rather telling and questionable that there are virtually no female characters in Fates with comparable power and agency (none of the princesses are treated with as much importance as the princes are by the plot; even Hinoka, who's presented as the most likely to take action among the female royals, barely does anything substantial in the plot at large), and now we have Faye, a female character whose sole defining character trait is her thirst for Alm. 

That isn't sexist HOW exactly?

And your feeble argument of 'hurdur it'd be sexist to ONLY have strong women' trying to turn things around back on me-- first of all no, it wouldn't be, and second of all that's neither what I'm asking for nor what Fire Emblem has ever done-- they've always been pretty good at having a balance of women who are strong active characters as well as nice, passive ones-- both varieties having examples that are both flawed and good characters in their own right-- UNTIL RECENTLY, and THAT is the point I'm making. Bad writing is bad writing, regardless of whether a character is strong or passive. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by BANRYU

[Armagon]

22 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

It's especially worrying that they seem to be deliberately pushing for her to be a popular character -sideyes her appearance in FE Heroes-

Regarding Heroes, that's probably just showing a bit of what the English version of SoV is gonna do with Faye. Her character is mostly same but toned down a bit. I mentioned it in my first post on this thread.

22 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

The problem with this argument is that Faye is the ONLY new character in this game

But like, Berkut is also new. And Linea. And Conrad. And Fernand. And Forenus even though he never actually appears in the game. This actually leads into a point I do want to make: I think Faye can be forgiven. Yes, her character is just "Alm love me pls" but at the end of the day, if she is a bad character, she's just this one little black spot in a good game.

Again, I don't hate Faye, I think she's alright and harmless. But I do see where people are coming from, even if I do feel that they are hating on Faye more than necessary.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Armagon

[KliffIsTheOG]

57 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

And your feeble argument of 'hurdur it'd be sexist to ONLY have strong women' trying to turn things around back on me-- first of all no, it wouldn't be, and second of all that's neither what I'm asking for nor what Fire Emblem has ever done--

A very good example of argumentation finesse. Rather than being mature and providing a respectful counter-argument, they instead decide to make fun of their discussion partner. This is a sure-fire way to convince the other person that they are wrong!  Another thing to notice is that the substance of your counter argument is, and I quote, "no it wouldn't be". Because you provide nothing of substance to support that claim, it holds no value. Please be more conscientious of your actions in the future.

For the sake of argumentation, let us look to the dictionary to see the definition of sexism: "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." Let's break it down in how it relates to Faye and Camilla.

Prejudice is, according to the dictionary, "a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." The defining characteristic of Faye is that she pines for Alm. Because there are females who have crushes and pine for people, this is a character that can be based on reason or actual experience, and is thus not prejudiced. Now, let us look at Camilla. The main reason that people say that Camilla is sexist id due to her fanservice nature. Is it prejudiced? No. Due to the fact there are conventionally attractive and shallow women in real life, and the game does not imply that all women are like Camilla, it is not prejudiced.

Stereotyping is, according to the dictionary, "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing." Faye and Camilla are not stereotyped because there are other women in their same games who do not share the undesirable characteristics of obsessive love, and physical appearance (Celica, Tatianna, Sonia, Delthea, Silk, May, Peri, Beruka, Setsuna, Reina, Severa, etc.).

Discrimination, again, according to the dictionary is, "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex." Are Faye and Camilla discriminatory to women? No, because their "category of people" (women) are not receiving prejudiced treatment based upon their category, as shown by the other women in their own games (the aforementioned Celica, Tatianna, Sonia, Delthea, Silk, May, Peri, Beruka, Setsuna, Reina, Severa, etc.).

I have just systematically laid out why your argument that the writers are sexist is invalid. If you would like to counter-argue, feel free to do it in a mature fashion.

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by KliffIsTheOG