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I don't get this bit...


Harvey
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The final boss seems pretty pathetic in terms of scale, seeing as its just 1 Fire Dragon, and Roy (a much weaker character than Eliwood) kills these things with his personal weapon easily...., while Eliwood, Hector, and Lyn have a hard time killing one of these dragons..... 

And while Roys enemies are War Dragons, they were made for combat so wouldn't that make them stronger....

 

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How I always saw it is that the dragon Eliwood fights is an actual dragon while the wardragons of Bern are more like mass produced mooks. They certainly are a lot smaller than the dragon Eliwood fights. 

But I do agree that just a regular dragon makes for a poor final boss. At least have Nergal's magic empower it somehow. 

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Well considering that the dragon was more of a threat in game than Idun was (due to the broken blade), it works out to make FE7's boss fight a lot more fun.

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But it's not tougher in game, or at least noticeably tougher.  Athos trivializes the boss with barely any effort on the player's part.

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28 minutes ago, Refa said:

But it's not tougher in game, or at least noticeably tougher.  Athos trivializes the boss with barely any effort on the player's part.

I mean, Athos was made to trivialize the end game in case your team was shitty. So saying he trivializes the boss is sort of irrelevant to how strong the boss is, especially since without Luna he can't outright one-shot the boss (I think?)

The binding blade and Fae trivialize Idun so badly that she's almost a joke in the community. Especially the BB.

Edited by YouSquiddinMe
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2 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

I mean, Athos was made to trivialize the end game in case your team was shitty. So saying he trivializes the boss is sort of irrelevant to how strong the boss is, especially since without Luna he can't outright one-shot the boss (I think?)

The binding blade and Fae trivialize Idun so badly that she's almost a joke in the community. Especially the BB.

How does this make any sense? Athos being made to trivialise the end game doesn't negate the fact he's trivialising the endgame and final boss. FE6 has no endgame trivialiser nearly as stupid as Athos (Karel is way way way behind), so given that Fae is likely getting oneshot by Idun, how is Roy' ability to roughly 2 or 3HKO the final boss more of a joke than Athos, who also 2RKOs? Because you get him earlier?

Edited by Irysa
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1 hour ago, Irysa said:

How does this make any sense? Athos being made to trivialise the end game doesn't negate the fact he's trivialising the endgame and final boss. FE6 has no endgame trivialiser nearly as stupid as Athos (Karel is way way way behind), so given that Fae is likely getting oneshot by Idun, how is Roy' ability to roughly 2 or 3HKO the final boss more of a joke than Athos, who also 2RKOs? Because you get him earlier?

@Paper Jam said basically what I was going to say

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@Paper Jam @YouSquiddinMe

Except they don't? Fae is doubled and oneshot by Manaketes and Idun without statboosters or significant investment and isn't oneshotting them without a low % crit. The Binding Blade only has 20 uses and you have to kill like 20 Manaketes to even get to Idun. She is definitely not a difficult final boss, but considering Athos is pretty capable of soloing the entire endgame without much fuss I don't see how FE7's handling of it is somehow particularly better.

Edited by Irysa
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The Fire Dragon is fairly annoying actually as far as final bosses go, not Ashnard or Julius bad, but still annoying. Hector and Athos have an easy time at it (and if you're on HHM and the FD gets 40 Atk, Athos can't fight it- throwing a Robe in somebody's inventory just in case fixes that though). Eliwood can also damage it, but Eliwood needs to be fast enough to avoid being doubled- not easy when Durandal weighs a gigaton (why IS?). Serra, Lucius and Canas all stand a chance too. Everyone else, including Lyn needs all the Strength/Magic in the world to do even minimal damage to the 40 Def/Res monster. Dart deals only 12x2 damage at most to it without supports.

As for why the FD is so much more powerful than FE6's Manaketes, beside not being injured, heartless, or a mass production model, the FD just crossed over from a world able to better sustain draconic forms. Presumably it'd weaken if it walked away from the Dragon's Gate and adjusted to the magical climate of Elibe.

As for size- do recall Ninian's dragon form is also colossal. Jahn's the oddity here.

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17 minutes ago, Irysa said:

@Paper Jam @YouSquiddinMe

Except they don't? Fae is doubled and oneshot by Manaketes and Idun without statboosters or significant investment and isn't oneshotting them without a low % crit. The Binding Blade only has 20 uses and you have to kill like 20 Manaketes to even get to Idun. She is definitely not a difficult final boss, but considering Athos is pretty capable of soloing the entire endgame without much fuss I don't see how FE7's handling of it is somehow particularly better.

On FE6 hard mode, the binding blade kills Idun in one round (if not, 3 hits will definitely kill it). The other manaketes are weak to every other legendary weapon. 

There are instances in the hard modes of FE7 where Athos can't stand up to the dragon on his own. 

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20 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

On FE6 hard mode, the binding blade kills Idun in one round (if not, 3 hits will definitely kill it). The other manaketes are weak to every other legendary weapon. 

Athos kills the Dragon like 2 or 3 rounds of combat with Forblaze, or less if you use Luna. The other manaketes being weak to other legendary weapons doesn't help your argument that Roy and Fae trivialise the endgame.

 

20 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

There are instances in the hard modes of FE7 where Athos can't stand up to the dragon on his own. 

Athos can always oneshot the Dragon with a Fillias Mt + Luna crit. And as far as I'm aware, assuming the Fire Dragon can actually roll 40 attack (never seen it myself), it should only have like a sub 10% chance of happening anyway given you have to get a 9/8 into a .25 on the stat generation. Furthermore you could just give him a Robe or something, it's not like they're in high demand.

I repeat, Athos can pretty much singlehandedly take on the Final Chapter, let alone the Final Boss. How are Roy and Fae trivialising anything harder than he is?

Edited by Irysa
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Literally any good unit holding one of the Divine Weapons tears Chapter 24 to shreds, Jahn included.  Roy can easily 2HKO Idoun so long as he has 16 Str (Idoun has 80 HP and 30 Defense on Hard, Binding Blade has 54 effective might), which isn't hard for him to achieve in all honesty, and will ORKO if he has at least 16 Str and 20 Speed.

A moderately well trained Roy shouldn't have too much trouble doing this.

Honestly FE6's endgame is probably the easiest one in the series simply because of how OP the Divine Weapons and the Binding Blade are.

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Those points aren't relevant to the question of whether Roy and Fae trivialise FE6 endgame more than Athos trivialises FE7 endgame. The point has never been that FE6 has a difficult endgame, merely that FE7's is not really much harder either.

Edited by Irysa
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6 minutes ago, Irysa said:

The other manaketes being weak to other legendary weapons doesn't help your argument that Roy and Fae trivialise the endgame.

The point was that you don't need to use the Binding Blade on those Manaketes so the number of uses on the thing is largely irrelevant. 

Having to rig a luna crit with Filla's might is not the same as just walking (warping, I guess, but outside of LTC when else do you warp?) up to Idun and one-rounding her. 

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20 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

The point was that you don't need to use the Binding Blade on those Manaketes so the number of uses on the thing is largely irrelevant. 

It's not irrelevent if both you and Paper Jam claim Roy and Fae are trivialising endgame way more than Athos does, because Endgame includes the Final Chapter?

20 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Having to rig a luna crit with Filla's might is not the same as just walking (warping, I guess, but outside of LTC when else do you warp?) up to Idun and one-rounding her. 

Roy typically does not get the required Strength/Speed to ORKO Idun unless you rigged levelups, spent a while grinding him post promotion (why) or gave him Statboosters. Athos is given to you for free, no training required and can take on the entire Final Chapter, along with 2 to 3RKOing the Dragon with basically no assistance beyond like, some Healing. He is capable of ORKOing with Statboosters, and the second Body Ring improves him a lot in general.

If the sole reasoning for the Fire Dragon being less of a joke is that less than 10% of the time you have to give Athos a Robe then that's pretty poor since it's not like Roy's accuracy is perfect against Idun either. Sure, Roy 2/3HKO's Idun, but is that really any more lame than the Fire Dragon going down in 1 or 2 turns? The point is not "FE6 has a hard endgame", the point is "FE7's is also very easy".

Edited by Irysa
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Well, Athos does trivialize singlehandedly the Kenneth and Jerme rooms in FE7 Final, seeing how they only pack Res-hitters. With his 30 Magic and Luna, he can two-three shot everyone else. Toss him the Sleep and he can disable 3 others. A Light Rune + Berserk can also be used to get Linus to attack Lloyd, killing Linus, while possibly crippling Lloyd. And of course, Nergal and the FD are not threat either. Only physical attacks endanger him, but a use of Ninis's Grace fixes that for a turn. And hey, Nosferatu should probably be safe on anyone not Linus, Lloyd, or Uhai (and a Body Ring can fix the Linus problem).

All you need for FE6 endgame is Legendary Weapons and decently competent users of them. Durandal and Maltet are practically guaranteed good users, Apocalypse only requires some Niime use (Flux chip, Nostanking after a Robe or two, and Eclipsing). Murgleis has Igrene with some elbow grease, or Klein with a little less. Forblaze needs yet more grease to get but chances are you'll be likely to raise a user. Armads takes effort given the horrible accuracy of axes making you less likely to raise a user. Yodel can provide Aureola, but it's much harder for him to earn the wexp than Niime.

Overall, Athos wins vs. Roy and Fae at trivialization. Roy and Fae have to compete with at least two, probably five, possibly seven, other Manakete ORKOers. Nobody can quite replicate Athos's versatility in FE7. Canas can come close, he's gonna need RNG blessings up the wazoo to match Athos.

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On 4/19/2017 at 6:32 PM, YouSquiddinMe said:

The binding blade and Fae trivialize Idun so badly that she's almost a joke in the community. Especially the BB

I just assume that Idun's main purpose was mass producing War Dragons which is why she isn't a great fighter (heck, her HP is less than Jahn, a normal manakete).

 

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6 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I just assume that Idun's main purpose was mass producing War Dragons which is why she isn't a great fighter (heck, her HP is less than Jahn, a normal manakete).

To be fair, the HP thing is only the case on Normal mode.

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Just now, Glaceon Mage said:

To be fair, the HP thing is only the case on Normal mode.

Ah, I see, I didn't know since I only played on Normal mode, so...

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As much as I like Idunn, I definitely would have preferred it if her own personal weapon had more range, and something like a "Dragonskin" effect like Medeus's weapon has in his Super NES incarnations, or the Loptyr tome has against most other weapons. Don't know how much harder that would have made her, but at least she'd put up more of a challenge.

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On 4/19/2017 at 11:14 AM, Irysa said:

It's not irrelevent if both you and Paper Jam claim Roy and Fae are trivialising endgame way more than Athos does, because Endgame includes the Final Chapter?

Roy typically does not get the required Strength/Speed to ORKO Idun unless you rigged levelups, spent a while grinding him post promotion (why) or gave him Statboosters. Athos is given to you for free, no training required and can take on the entire Final Chapter, along with 2 to 3RKOing the Dragon with basically no assistance beyond like, some Healing. He is capable of ORKOing with Statboosters, and the second Body Ring improves him a lot in general.

If the sole reasoning for the Fire Dragon being less of a joke is that less than 10% of the time you have to give Athos a Robe then that's pretty poor since it's not like Roy's accuracy is perfect against Idun either. Sure, Roy 2/3HKO's Idun, but is that really any more lame than the Fire Dragon going down in 1 or 2 turns? The point is not "FE6 has a hard endgame", the point is "FE7's is also very easy".

On 4/19/2017 at 11:01 AM, Glaceon Mage said:

Literally any good unit holding one of the Divine Weapons tears Chapter 24 to shreds, Jahn included.  Roy can easily 2HKO Idoun so long as he has 16 Str (Idoun has 80 HP and 30 Defense on Hard, Binding Blade has 54 effective might), which isn't hard for him to achieve in all honesty, and will ORKO if he has at least 16 Str and 20 Speed.

A moderately well trained Roy shouldn't have too much trouble doing this.

Honestly FE6's endgame is probably the easiest one in the series simply because of how OP the Divine Weapons and the Binding Blade are.

There's a difference here you're not noticing, Irysa. As Glaceon Mage pointed out, you need little more than the units you've been using all game to trivialize FE6's finale. But for FE7's? You need one specific unit, and not only that, you need a specific knowledge of what to do in regards to what weapon to use and possible stat boosters, and it's easy to screw up since the Fire Dragon's 3 range can easily catch players off guard, not to mention the staff users and long-range tomes limiting your movement space.

Sure, you can trivialize FE7's Endgame, but you need to know exactly what you're doing. For FE6 you can pretty much just go in and handle things pretty easily. I consider that to be significantly less trivial. Think of it this way: if the reason you find FE7's Endgame so easy is because you know the game very well and are very good at it, is it actually so easy?

Edited by Florete
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