I don't get this bit...

[fangpoint333]

Athos trivializing endgame is really more of a testament to how broken Luna was then anything else.

Obviously the game needed you to fight a Fire Dragon at the end because it needed a way to kill off Athos and Bramimond, revive Ninian, and to have you fight a dragon at least once after touting how powerful they were the whole game. 

War Dragons and Jahn were obviously weaker since they live in this world which they can't adapt to well. Also the war dragons are mass produced and barely more than a few years old at best.

[Irysa]

3 hours ago, Florete said:

There's a difference here you're not noticing, Irysa. As Glaceon Mage pointed out, you need little more than the units you've been using all game to trivialize FE6's finale. But for FE7's? You need one specific unit, and not only that, you need a specific knowledge of what to do in regards to what weapon to use and possible stat boosters, and it's easy to screw up since the Fire Dragon's 3 range can easily catch players off guard, not to mention the staff users and long-range tomes limiting your movement space.

Sure, you can trivialize FE7's Endgame, but you need to know exactly what you're doing. For FE6 you can pretty much just go in and handle things pretty easily. I consider that to be significantly less trivial. Think of it this way: if the reason you find FE7's Endgame so easy is because you know the game very well and are very good at it, is it actually so easy?

 

2 hours ago, fangpoint333 said:

Athos trivializing endgame is really more of a testament to how broken Luna was then anything else.

 

You don't even need Athos to handle both the Final Chapter and the Fire Dragon though, you can use the units you've been using all game there too. Even 0% can get away without Athos. Beating Idun without using Roy or Fae is actually kind of annoying because she's bulkier, has displayed crit on just about everyone, 2HKOs everyone, moves, and there's endless Manakete reinforcements that combo with her for 2HKOs. You're also not in range of her on Turn 1 unless you used a bunch of boots or have remaining Warps. The Fire Dragon does not move, the Bolting Sage/Sleep Druid can never combo onto the person fighting the Fire Dragon, and the other guys can just be ignored entirely. You even reach it in 1 turn without doing anything but walking up.

It's silly to make an argument about how difficult a boss or chapter is if we exclude the best possibly strategy though, so I'm sure nobody's keen to accept that kind of logic, but in that case, why negate all the tools you have at your disposal to trivialise the Fire Dragon? Trying to act like somehow it's somehow more difficult to have Athos just attack the Fire Dragon with Forblaze (which he comes with ffs) whilst someone heals him, even if he didnt get any Boosters is being really disingenous. At worst it just takes longer. Is the tier of difficulty now decided by how many turns it takes to kill the boss from the worst possible player?

The fact is Athos is just a much better unit than Roy or Fae are, both in the Final Chapter and against the Final Boss, and this really cannot be argued against. Meaningless point scoring around on which has the most difficult endgame overall is pretty fruitless given they're both simple. Maybe FE7 has more illusion of being a bigger deal than it really is because you have to possibly enter combat with the Fire Dragon a few more times and Nergal is more present in the story than Jahn is, but I can easily just flip that around and point out that Zephiel (who is effectively a Final Boss in his own right) is a huge arsehole and more annoying than any enemy in FE7 period.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Irysa

[Just call me AL]

8 hours ago, fangpoint333 said:

Athos trivializing endgame is really more of a testament to how broken Luna was then anything else.

Except it's only available in limited quantities, tied to two specific units (one of whom is mediocre), and has no Mt. How's it "broken"?

[Magical Glace]

14 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

Except it's only available in limited quantities, tied to two specific units (one of whom is mediocre), and has no Mt. How's it "broken"?

Ignoring Def/Res in the endgame is no joke, enemies are much stronger.  Being able to do flat damage equal to your magic without worrying about tankiness, on a tome with a 20 crit/95 hit weapon is pretty awesome later.

...The weight is annoying, though.

[Interdimensional Observer]

34 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

Except it's only available in limited quantities, tied to two specific units (one of whom is mediocre), and has no Mt. How's it "broken"?

We're speaking the limited context of endgame with Athos, where it does 30 damage to things with like 16 Res minimum.

Outside of it, Luna is a weak Killer weapon vs. normal enemies for Canas, with anti-boss properties (because they generally have high Resistance). Nothing too special (you'll be sticking with Flux most of the time, with little lost as a result), but it does at least make Canas a little different from his two rivals, more than the-all-too-heavy Nosferatu does or Eclipse does.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[Just call me AL]

18 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Ignoring Def/Res in the endgame is no joke, enemies are much stronger.  Being able to do flat damage equal to your magic without worrying about tankiness, on a tome with a 20 crit/95 hit weapon is pretty awesome later.

Okay. But most enemies in the Endgame are handled by a basic tome, Aureola or Forblaze anyways. Sure the enemies will be much stronger, but so will your units.

And besides, I was only pointing out flawsthat pretty much prevent the tome from being broken. I wasn't denying that was powerful. All the same, I just wouldn't mention it in the same breath as other weapons like the Wing Spear or Forseti.

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

We're speaking the limited context of endgame with Athos, where it does 30 damage to things with like 16 Res minimum.

Most of which, again, are easily handled by tomes like Thunder, with Forblaze/Aureola used if necessary.

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Outside of it, Luna is a weak Killer weapon vs. normal enemies for Canas, with anti-boss properties (because they generally have high Resistance). Nothing too special (you'll be sticking with Flux most of the time, with little lost as a result), but it does at least make Canas a little different from his two rivals, more than the-all-too-heavy Nosferatu does or Eclipse does.

And what I bolded is precisely my point. Because, be honest. Shouldn't the fact that you're sticking with Flux most of the time when using Canas be an indicator to just how "broken" Luna is?

Also, "two rivals"?

[Interdimensional Observer]

I meant Lucius and Erk. Not actual rival Shamans, but given Canas is sticking with the normal Flux most of the time and the Trinity of Magic meaning little, he is only a little different from the other two early game magic users. Thus I consider them rivals.

Time for some math:

Normal Mode Jerme has 53/16 HP/Res- the weakest of the boss morphs (the couple of non-boss ones are presumably jokes). Thunder!Athos is 38 Atk, Aureola 45. We're dealing 23 (WTA) for a 3HKO on Jerme with Thunder, a 29 for a 2HKO with Aureola. So Luna only equals Aureola (or Forblaze) here I concede. The strongest Morph is HM Kenneth, with 58/30. Thunder is dealing 10 damage for a 6HKO, and because Luce is heavy, Athos should double for a 3RKO. Forblaze is 15x2 for 30 damage, or 2RKO. Non-Luna equals Luna again outside of a critical 1HKO. Hard Mode Ursula can't be doubled though, so her 50/27 is actually bulkier. We're dealing 17 for a 4RKO with Aureola, Luna will 2RKO. 

Aureola has doubled might vs. Nergal, so it's 30 from Luna vs. 30 from Aureola, both 3RKO on HHM.

FD is 120/40. No boosters is 20 damage from Aureola so 6RKO vs. a 4RKO with Luna.

Note that on Normal Mode, Ursula, and the FD are both liable to being doubled by Luna with a Body Ring, Nergal on Hard too. NM Nergal is naturally doubled by Luna, but a Body Ring makes Aureola do it too.

Conclusion: Barring the Fire Dragon, Luna only saves you at most 2 turns unless it criticals. At it's worst on Normal Mode, it only saves time on the FD. My logic assertion that Luna = broken in endgame is hereby defeated.

[Florete]

15 hours ago, Irysa said:

You don't even need Athos to handle both the Final Chapter and the Fire Dragon though, you can use the units you've been using all game there too. Even 0% can get away without Athos. Beating Idun without using Roy or Fae is actually kind of annoying because she's bulkier, has displayed crit on just about everyone, 2HKOs everyone, moves, and there's endless Manakete reinforcements that combo with her for 2HKOs. You're also not in range of her on Turn 1 unless you used a bunch of boots or have remaining Warps. The Fire Dragon does not move, the Bolting Sage/Sleep Druid can never combo onto the person fighting the Fire Dragon, and the other guys can just be ignored entirely. You even reach it in 1 turn without doing anything but walking up.

It's silly to make an argument about how difficult a boss or chapter is if we exclude the best possibly strategy though, so I'm sure nobody's keen to accept that kind of logic, but in that case, why negate all the tools you have at your disposal to trivialise the Fire Dragon? Trying to act like somehow it's somehow more difficult to have Athos just attack the Fire Dragon with Forblaze (which he comes with ffs) whilst someone heals him, even if he didnt get any Boosters is being really disingenous. At worst it just takes longer. Is the tier of difficulty now decided by how many turns it takes to kill the boss from the worst possible player?

The fact is Athos is just a much better unit than Roy or Fae are, both in the Final Chapter and against the Final Boss, and this really cannot be argued against. Meaningless point scoring around on which has the most difficult endgame overall is pretty fruitless given they're both simple. Maybe FE7 has more illusion of being a bigger deal than it really is because you have to possibly enter combat with the Fire Dragon a few more times and Nergal is more present in the story than Jahn is, but I can easily just flip that around and point out that Zephiel (who is effectively a Final Boss in his own right) is a huge arsehole and more annoying than any enemy in FE7 period.

Anything feels easy with experience. Metroid Fusion is a cakewalk for me because I've played it a ton, but I often hear of how people have a lot of trouble with it. Is it right for me to call it easy just because I'm so good when it's not for most people?

Most of the people fighting the Fire Dragon are likely not like us. They likely do not know the best strategies, don't have the best tools to use (or don't realize how effective they are), and may have lost or not recruited the important characters. But you can't not recruit Roy or Fae, you can't lose Roy, Roy will probably be used by most players since he's the main character (and he doesn't need to be used much to be effective here, anyway), and it's unlikely that his sword will be completely used up by the time he gets to the final boss even if it does have few uses.

I think it's silly to argue the ease of something based on only the best possible strategy when said strategy doesn't come naturally to people. I think it's wrong to base a game's difficulty on the skills of those who know it in and out. If Radiant Dawn's difficulty was based on my skill with it, it wouldn't be nearly as hard as its reputation has led it to be.

Zephiel is definitely a harder time than Idunn and a more worthy final boss, though I don't remember the game well enough to say whether he's harder than the Fire Dragon or not. But that's not what I'm arguing.

[Irysa]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

Anything feels easy with experience. Metroid Fusion is a cakewalk for me because I've played it a ton, but I often hear of how people have a lot of trouble with it. Is it right for me to call it easy just because I'm so good when it's not for most people?

It's not about what feels easy and I've never argued that. It's about objective metrics. The fact that some people are bad at say, Pokemon single player does not mean that it is not easy. Fortunately the rest of your post is about metrics but I want to make this clear first.

1 hour ago, Florete said:

Most of the people fighting the Fire Dragon are likely not like us. They likely do not know the best strategies, don't have the best tools to use (or don't realize how effective they are), and may have lost or not recruited the important characters. But you can't not recruit Roy or Fae, you can't lose Roy, Roy will probably be used by most players since he's the main character (and he doesn't need to be used much to be effective here, anyway), and it's unlikely that his sword will be completely used up by the time he gets to the final boss even if it does have few uses.

You can't not recruit Athos, you can't lose Athos, he comes with Forblaze and Aureola, both are tailor made to fight the Final Bosses. The story even hypes him up as a huge badass and he has shiny green numbers everywhere. Athos even specifically tells you that he's carrying Dragonslaying weaponry.

Your line of reasoning is not effective at making a distinction here.

1 hour ago, Florete said:

I think it's silly to argue the ease of something based on only the best possible strategy when said strategy doesn't come naturally to people. I think it's wrong to base a game's difficulty on the skills of those who know it in and out. If Radiant Dawn's difficulty was based on my skill with it, it wouldn't be nearly as hard as its reputation has led it to be.

There are nearly infinite suboptimal strategies to any challenge though. Trying to define how intuitive an approach is requires assumptions on the part of the player. I do not accept that considering the lowest common denominator of player in a strategy game of all things (ie, someone who does not read item descriptions or do basic calculations) is a reasonable starting point for evaluating difficulty. If that were the case, basically any action game would have to assume a severe handicap or motor deficiency on part of the player too.

Basically, what's the point in considering people like that journalist who used character faces in Fates to determine if she should attack or not instead of looking at the on screen numbers? Most players posting on these forums are at least half-way informed about game mechanics after all.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Irysa

[Florete]

48 minutes ago, Irysa said:

It's not about what feels easy and I've never argued that. It's about objective metrics. The fact that some people are bad at say, Pokemon single player does not mean that it is not easy. Fortunately the rest of your post is about metrics but I want to make this clear first.

You can't not recruit Athos, you can't lose Athos, he comes with Forblaze and Aureola, both are tailor made to fight the Final Bosses. The story even hypes him up as a huge badass and he has shiny green numbers everywhere. Athos even specifically tells you that he's carrying Dragonslaying weaponry.

Your line of reasoning is not effective at making a distinction here.

There are nearly infinite suboptimal strategies to any challenge though. Trying to define how intuitive an approach is requires assumptions on the part of the player. I do not accept that considering the lowest common denominator of player in a strategy game of all things (ie, someone who does not read item descriptions or do basic calculations) is a reasonable starting point for evaluating difficulty. If that were the case, basically any action game would have to assume a severe handicap or motor deficiency on part of the player too.

Basically, what's the point in considering people like that journalist who used character faces in Fates to determine if she should attack or not instead of looking at the on screen numbers? Most players posting on these forums are at least half-way informed about game mechanics after all.

You very much can lose Athos. You do not get a game over for losing him.

It's not about the lowest common denominator, it's thinking about a beginner versus a veteran. A beginner is going to have a much easier time in FE6's finale than FE7's based solely on how they're built. To a veteran FE7's finale might also be simple, but just about anything will be. The point is that it's not as obvious and it's a lot easier to screw it up. Given that, it feels very wrong to consider FE7's finale as simple as FE6's.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Florete said:

You very much can lose Athos. You do not get a game over for losing him.

Athos can die yes, but because he joins the final chapter, if you lose the final fight, he is guaranteed to come back when you restart by choice or forced by a game over, because you can't save during the final fight, the only time he can die. If he joined in any other chapter, then you could possibly not have him for the final fight because he died in an earlier chapter and you saved after doing so. Yet because he is an automatic recruit right before the final fight, it is impossible to not have him available for it. You can always plan the chapter with him in mind, just as you can always plan Chapter 12 with Oswin in mind, because that is when he automatically joins.

[fangpoint333]

All of the GBA games had easy final bosses. FE6's was noticeably easier though as you have a unit that can literally ORKO the boss with a bare minimum of effort. FE7's boss can really only be one rounded by getting lucky crits and using a limited attack buff. How is this a debate on which one is harder?

[Harvey]

24 minutes ago, fangpoint333 said:

How is this a debate on which one is harder?

The actual topic is how Eliwood and others struggle to beat one dragon unlike Roy who easily kills them with the binding blade which I think is already answered.

 

[Florete]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Athos can die yes, but because he joins the final chapter, if you lose the final fight, he is guaranteed to come back when you restart by choice or forced by a game over, because you can't save during the final fight, the only time he can die. If he joined in any other chapter, then you could possibly not have him for the final fight because he died in an earlier chapter and you saved after doing so. Yet because he is an automatic recruit right before the final fight, it is impossible to not have him available for it. You can always plan the chapter with him in mind, just as you can always plan Chapter 12 with Oswin in mind, because that is when he automatically joins.

I mean, you can lose him pre-Nergal and not have him for the Fire Dragon. It's entirely possible. And if that causes you to fail, well, that's part of my point.

[Irysa]

24 minutes ago, Florete said:

I mean, you can lose him pre-Nergal and not have him for the Fire Dragon. It's entirely possible. And if that causes you to fail, well, that's part of my point.

You can lose Fae in Chapter 24 and you can lose the Binding Blade. So again, that point isn't really very relevant as a distinction.

Comparatively it's possible to actually save over your chapter 24 file for endgame so you have no easy way to deal with Idunn.

10 hours ago, Florete said:

It's not about the lowest common denominator, it's thinking about a beginner versus a veteran. A beginner is going to have a much easier time in FE6's finale than FE7's based solely on how they're built. To a veteran FE7's finale might also be simple, but just about anything will be. The point is that it's not as obvious and it's a lot easier to screw it up. Given that, it feels very wrong to consider FE7's finale as simple as FE6's.

How is it any less obvious to have Athos fight enemies? Again, short of that freak scenario where the Fire Dragon rolls 40 Atk (assuming that can actually happen), he can basically just sit there Forblazing the Dragon over and over with some healing, whilst the LRTs do nothing. And this IS the beginner strat. This is not particularly more complicated than what a beginner would do for Idun.

Heck, a beginner is likely to have trained up the Lords so they could do it instead if they have enough HP.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Irysa

[Harvey]

...............................................................................................................................................Ok, I ought to shut up for a while

 

[Tamanoir]

1 hour ago, Irysa said:

You can lose Fae in Chapter 24 and you can lose the Binding Blade. So again, that point isn't really very relevant as a distinction.

Comparatively it's possible to actually save over your chapter 24 file for endgame so you have no easy way to deal with Idunn.

How is it any less obvious to have Athos fight enemies? Again, short of that freak scenario where the Fire Dragon rolls 40 Atk (assuming that can actually happen), he can basically just sit there Forblazing the Dragon over and over with some healing, whilst the LRTs do nothing. And this IS the beginner strat. This is not particularly more complicated than what a beginner would do for Idun.

Heck, a beginner is likely to have trained up the Lords so they could do it instead if they have enough HP.

In HHM, it WILL happens. But if you play HHM, you should know how to play already, so it's not really as relevant. (Eclipse actually helps a lot here. if it hits twice, you have won.)

We should stay to NM where Athos is "only" 2 rounded)

You have all the time in the world to beat the fire dragon, so if you're carefull enough (not putting your healer in the ennemy's range, like I did the first time...), you should win eventually. I'm not as knowledgeable with BB as I'm with Blazing Sword, so I can say which one is easier, but honnestly, it's an easy level. The only real threat is the Dragon and it doesn't move. He 2-shot or 1-shot everyone in your party, but he can't heal, so it's simply a battle of attrition. No great strategy is actually needed, just playing it extremely safe, and having enough Staff uses.

It's easier two 1-turn Idoun, but in the long term, the Fire Dragon is easier.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Tamanoir

[XeKr]

In FE6 your effective damage options for Idun are on units that start at level 1 with lowish bases (for their jointime), and are 20/30 uses with several chapters of prior availability.

In FE7 your effective damage options for the Fire Dragon are on units that start at level 1 with lowish bases, a Shaman that starts at level 8 (if we include Luna), a few other Bishops that reached S rank Light magic, and also a 20/20 unit with some maxed stats at base. You get these weapons with 30/25/20/20/20 uses in this final chapter (alongside said 20/20 superunit), plus up to 70 Luna uses from prior chapters. 

Those are some factual things, you can ofc continue to argue to subjective difficulty of the final boss in general (based on relative stats, damage, range, etc). FE7 Light in particular also has a boss rush in the same chapter, though if including difficulty in getting to the final boss, FE6 has chapters like 7 and 22. As noted by others, probably also want to focus on NM for this theoretical player of debatable competence.

Edited April 25, 2017 by XeKr