Then and now...Awakening

[Refa]

I'm fairly certain that the only difference between Lunatic and Lunatic+ is the upgraded enemy skills.  Lunatic definitely didn't buff stats that much lol.

[Slumber]

9 minutes ago, Refa said:

I'm fairly certain that the only difference between Lunatic and Lunatic+ is the upgraded enemy skills.  Lunatic definitely didn't buff stats that much lol.

Definitely does. You can look up Youtube videos of chapter 3 and see generic Archers with 30+ HP and Knights with 15+ Strength and Defense. I think I may have been wrong about the speed buffs they got, though, as Frederick seems to still be able to double Knights.

It doesn't get to the point of feeling hopeless until Lunatic+ when they start getting stupid enemy only skills, but vanilla Lunatic isn't much fun either.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Slumber

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Definitely does. You can look up Youtube videos of chapter 3 and see generic Archers with 30+ HP and Knights with 15+ Strength and Defense. I think I may have been wrong about the speed buffs they got, though, as Frederick seems to still be able to double Knights.

It doesn't get to the point of feeling hopeless until Lunatic+ when they start getting stupid enemy only skills, but vanilla Lunatic isn't much fun either.

Firstly, you originally said ~40HP instead of ~30, which is a fairly sizeable difference.  Secondly, Knights cap Str/Def at 30, so that's not near the cap.

[Slumber]

7 minutes ago, Refa said:

Firstly, you originally said ~40HP instead of ~30, which is a fairly sizeable difference.  Secondly, Knights cap Str/Def at 30, so that's not near the cap.

The Knights are closer to 35-40. The Archers, the squishy units in the map, have 30-35.

And this is true, I forget that Awakening has high caps for unpromoted units. Regardless, my point was that these Knights had higher stats than Frederick, and this remains true, as Frederick starts with 12 Str and 14 Def, so they'll definitely beat his strength, and they'll likely match his defense. They'll also have higher HP.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Slumber

[eclipse]

2 hours ago, Barrel said:

what

The only reason why you're not getting a spamming warning is because that was the exact same thing that I was thinking.  However, you'll need to do better than that as a counter-argument.

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Definitely does. You can look up Youtube videos of chapter 3 and see generic Archers with 30+ HP and Knights with 15+ Strength and Defense. I think I may have been wrong about the speed buffs they got, though, as Frederick seems to still be able to double Knights.

It doesn't get to the point of feeling hopeless until Lunatic+ when they start getting stupid enemy only skills, but vanilla Lunatic isn't much fun either.

The great thing about Serenes Forest is that there's a lot of nifty information on the main site.

Like so

You'll also notice that everyone has 1-2 Res.  A properly trained Robin has a field day here.  Once you get the Hammer, Frederick can help take out the Knights.

[Barrel]

6 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The only reason why you're not getting a spamming warning is because that was the exact same thing that I was thinking.  However, you'll need to do better than that as a counter-argument.

 

yeah i'm not sure why i bothered honestly, my bad

[Slumber]

11 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The great thing about Serenes Forest is that there's a lot of nifty information on the main site.

Like so

You'll also notice that everyone has 1-2 Res.  A properly trained Robin has a field day here.  Once you get the Hammer, Frederick can help take out the Knights.

It's not quite so easy, especially at the start of the map, where Archers and Knights are pretty inter-mixed. Moving Miriel or Robin out to chip at the Knights will leave them open to the Archers, who will likely have the speed advantage over them(They'll definitely double Miriel if she isn't paired with somebody who gives her speed). The whole reason the chapter isn't fun is because it's a lot of baiting with Frederick, and praying to the RNG gods that you don't get hit by everything, where there's still a pretty high possibility of that happening.

And, again, that's just Lunatic. Definitely doable with some patience, but still not very well balanced. You basically have one usable unit, and hopefully you get some opportunities to poke with Robin and Miriel.

It's that whole rightmost column on that page where it just gets straight up reset city on Lunatic+.

And if I recall, that Hammer is on the upper level of the map. Chances are, that will be one of the last enemies you take out.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Slumber

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

It's not quite so easy, especially at the start of the map, where Archers and Knights are pretty inter-mixed. Moving Miriel or Robin out to chip at the Knights will leave them open to the Archers, who will likely have the speed advantage over them(They'll definitely double Miriel if she isn't paired with somebody who gives her speed). The whole reason the chapter isn't fun is because it's a lot of baiting with Frederick, and praying to the RNG gods that you don't get hit by everything, where there's still a pretty high possibility of that happening.

And, again, that's just Lunatic. Definitely doable with some patience, but still not very well balanced. You basically have one usable unit, and hopefully you get some opportunities to poke with Robin and Miriel.

It's that whole rightmost column on that page where it just gets straight up reset city on Lunatic+.

And if I recall, that Hammer is on the upper level of the map. Chances are, that will be one of the last enemies you take out.

I've done Lunatic before.  The trick is training Robin to ridiculous levels.  There's a reason why a Heal staff is an exclusive Lunatic drop.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

@Harvey

You should definitely try out Hard after Normal, if you feel like Normal is way too easy.

Hard (IMO) the most sane difficulty. For example, on Hard, your units don't get two shotted on the first chapter, while IIRC on Lunatic, everybody does bar Freddy (correct me on this if I am wrong).

The only issue is that Hard tends to have ridiculous jumps in enemy stats. Still, nothing that grinding can't fix if you have a large team!

I must also add, the game is quite fun on Hard with no Pair Up. I'd definitely try that out if you get tired of Hard but you find Lunatic too frustrating to tackle.

[Seafarer]

On 25/04/2017 at 6:33 PM, Slumber said:

it just gets straight up reset city on Lunatic+.

and other wrong things about L+

You realise there's a whole thread about how most of what you've said about Lunatic+ is wrong, right? The balance thing is the only one that you have any case for.

Meanwhile, Lunatic is fairly easy after Chapter 3. Chrom's arc has enemies that don't keep up with your own stat inflation, then by Valm you have Nostank and Galeforce access. The only bad balance in Lunatic is how simple it is to break.

Now, to be more on-topic: I agree with OP that Awakening is better than Fates in many areas. My experience with Laurent (and Apotheosis, actually) also corroborates the Galeforce thing: it's not the be-all and end-all of the kids.

I dunno whether this is the place to say this, but I get really annoyed at people claiming that Robin takes over the show. To me, that's kinda the point. There are three plot arcs in the game, and each focuses on one of the three main characters. Chrom gets the Plegia arc; Valm covers Lucina and her attempts to change the future; then the Grima arc finally tells us what's up with the amnesiac genius.

Maybe I'll do another run. I mean, it's not as though I have all the supports and max Renown or anything...

[Harvey]

I also forgot to mention that I like the map expolartion in Awakening more than fates. Not only do you get to go to places to do various skirmishes but you can go sightseeing for shopping! :3

Oh and just a reminder from Nintendo of what would've happened if Awakening didn't do well.....

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

Just because Awakening saved the series doesn't mean we have to praise it to highest heavens all the time.

You don't see anyone saying the original Super Mario Bros./the NES is the best game/console ever just because it saved non-PC gaming. We acknowledge the historical role of these things, and then set it aside respectful of it when discussing whether we like the games or not. Qualitative judgements are not the same as historical judgements.

[Harvey]

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Just because Awakening saved the series doesn't mean we have to praise it to highest heavens all the time.

I'm not asking for praising the game...I know the game from many FE fans is not perfect and yeah there's nothing I can do to argue about that. I was just trying to have comments avoid bashing the game for what it is and I just made a reminder of it...that's it.

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

I confess I was a little too rude with that statement.

[Arthur97]

On 4/28/2017 at 9:14 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Just because Awakening saved the series doesn't mean we have to praise it to highest heavens all the time.

You don't see anyone saying the original Super Mario Bros./the NES is the best game/console ever just because it saved non-PC gaming. We acknowledge the historical role of these things, and then set it aside respectful of it when discussing whether we like the games or not. Qualitative judgements are not the same as historical judgements.

Actually, I have seen the original SMB top at least one best video game of all time list for that very reason.

[SavageVolug]

I like some of the characters in this game, however I think what I dislike most about this game is how rushed the story is and that many of the skills got nerfed. Such as movement +1 is a nerfed version of Celerity which increased movement by two. I dislike that sol and luna have been nerfed as well compared to radiant dawn, while astra has remained the same. I wouldn't mind this as much if all units had access to a kill skill but some really got the short end of the stick. For instance I wish sages or sorcerers could learn Corona, Donnell really doesn't learn any good damage amplifier skills which bugs me. If sol had not been changed he would be all set even if he was restricted to Hero, Warrior and Bowknight classes. I also wish they had included Colossus for berserkers as that skill is so fun to watch and so rewarding Corrosion also would have been a fun addition although it just allows you to break enemy's weapons. I don't like it that Chrom has aether when he's supposed to be a descendant of Marth not Ike, also how Ike performed that skill looks way better.

If I could change this game I would add more depth to the plot for instance I would show scenes where the Mad king is consulting with Averssa in a war room or something for example, have war councils with the Shepherds, I would build up suspense prior to facing general Mustave (I think that's his name) especially with how respected and important he seemed to be I would make Chrom and his sword more significant to the plot as he's not needed for killing Grima in short I would try to prevent Chrom from getting outshined by the avatarr. I would add a couple castle battles both defensive and invasion (rescuing Emmeryn doesn't' count as you are inside). I also would probably imply that Vaike either is from Ferox especially when so many of the Feroxians appear to be fighters and Flavia looks similar to Vaike as well. I could go on but this will give you an idea, what I don't like with Awakening is it feels like underused potential which I think is a shame considering it was believed that it would be the last game. 

[Arthur97]

39 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

I like some of the characters in this game, however I think what I dislike most about this game is how rushed the story is and that many of the skills got nerfed. Such as movement +1 is a nerfed version of Celerity which increased movement by two. I dislike that sol and luna have been nerfed as well compared to radiant dawn, while astra has remained the same. I wouldn't mind this as much if all units had access to a kill skill but some really got the short end of the stick. For instance I wish sages or sorcerers could learn Corona, Donnell really doesn't learn any good damage amplifier skills which bugs me. If sol had not been changed he would be all set even if he was restricted to Hero, Warrior and Bowknight classes. I also wish they had included Colossus for berserkers as that skill is so fun to watch and so rewarding Corrosion also would have been a fun addition although it just allows you to break enemy's weapons. I don't like it that Chrom has aether when he's supposed to be a descendant of Marth not Ike, also how Ike performed that skill looks way better.

If I could change this game I would add more depth to the plot for instance I would show scenes where the Mad king is consulting with Averssa in a war room or something for example, have war councils with the Shepherds, I would build up suspense prior to facing general Mustave (I think that's his name) especially with how respected and important he seemed to be I would make Chrom and his sword more significant to the plot as he's not needed for killing Grima in short I would try to prevent Chrom from getting outshined by the avatarr. I would add a couple castle battles both defensive and invasion (rescuing Emmeryn doesn't' count as you are inside). I also would probably imply that Vaike either is from Ferox especially when so many of the Feroxians appear to be fighters and Flavia looks similar to Vaike as well. I could go on but this will give you an idea, what I don't like with Awakening is it feels like underused potential which I think is a shame considering it was believed that it would be the last game. 

There's no rule saying that Aether was exclusive to Ike. It's not like it's tied to his genetic code since even he had to learn it somewhere.

[SavageVolug]

7 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

There's no rule saying that Aether was exclusive to Ike. It's not like it's tied to his genetic code since even he had to learn it somewhere.

True, but we are not given any explanation for why Chrom has aether it's not like Chrom is a descendant of Ike and thus the Aether skill was probably taught to Ike's successors. Chrom just "has it" for some reason, nor is Chrom in Tellius as far as we know Tellius does not exist in Chrom's world. What I'm saying is there is no reason for Chrom to pick up Aether when he's a descendant of Marth as oppossed to Ike. And it's not like his promotion resembles Ike's vanguard class or anything. It would be like if Vaike suddenly had the Armads axe for no reason (the real one not the imitations from the Regalia map) or if Lon'qu suddenly had the manni katti. Why? It doesn't make any sense.

[Arthur97]

54 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

True, but we are not given any explanation for why Chrom has aether it's not like Chrom is a descendant of Ike and thus the Aether skill was probably taught to Ike's successors. Chrom just "has it" for some reason, nor is Chrom in Tellius as far as we know Tellius does not exist in Chrom's world. What I'm saying is there is no reason for Chrom to pick up Aether when he's a descendant of Marth as oppossed to Ike. And it's not like his promotion resembles Ike's vanguard class or anything. It would be like if Vaike suddenly had the Armads axe for no reason (the real one not the imitations from the Regalia map) or if Lon'qu suddenly had the manni katti. Why? It doesn't make any sense.

Simple, the game designers modeled Chrom after Ike initially so it made sense to give him Aether. The lack of a special animation is probably due to how concerned they were over hardware limitations (see no feat). It is possible that the skill made it's way into the Archanean/Ylissean royal family at some point either through a descendant of Ike or from someone else who knew the skill. It could have been written down too since I think Ike did have to use a scroll to use it. I mean, Tiki used it in a special mode. Besides, comparing it to a sacred weapon is a little extreme. It's still just a skill in the end.

[SavageVolug]

Actually Ike learned Aether when Yuna promoted him to Vanguard. And you're argument is why I don't like Chrom he's trying to copy Ike. Chrom is not Ike, nor is he Ephraim, nor Hector, nor is he Alm. These lords while having similar characteristics are not reskinned copies of each other. Ephraim is different from Hector. Chrom's base class might look a little like Ike, however is promotion which is where he learns Aether has more resemblance to Marth than it does to Ike or the Vanguard class so I don't see how that's any validation for giving him Aether. Aether may just be a skill but it is specific to Ike just as much as the Ragnell sword or the Ettard for that matter. Lastly Chrom's design has never made sense to me he's a noble he should look like it, look at Ephraim, Eliwood, Roy, even Hector all of these lords are nobles and they look like it Chrom does not, he looks more like a commoner which that fact that he's not comes off as patronizing when he dresses like a commoner. This is something my brother has said who by the way has only played Awakening and Fates he thinks it's patronizing that Chrom's like "Isn't this nice guys I'm roughing it just like you?" Which I hadn't thought of until he brought it up and then I realized how right he was. Chrom's design had always bugged me but I couldn't really say why exactly but then my brother nailed it.

 

[Arthur97]

25 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

Actually Ike learned Aether when Yuna promoted him to Vanguard. And you're argument is why I don't like Chrom he's trying to copy Ike. Chrom is not Ike, nor is he Ephraim, nor Hector, nor is he Alm. These lords while having similar characteristics are not reskinned copies of each other. Ephraim is different from Hector. Chrom's base class might look a little like Ike, however is promotion which is where he learns Aether has more resemblance to Marth than it does to Ike or the Vanguard class so I don't see how that's any validation for giving him Aether. Aether may just be a skill but it is specific to Ike just as much as the Ragnell sword or the Ettard for that matter. Lastly Chrom's design has never made sense to me he's a noble he should look like it, look at Ephraim, Eliwood, Roy, even Hector all of these lords are nobles and they look like it Chrom does not, he looks more like a commoner which that fact that he's not comes off as patronizing when he dresses like a commoner. This is something my brother has said who by the way has only played Awakening and Fates he thinks it's patronizing that Chrom's like "Isn't this nice guys I'm roughing it just like you?" Which I hadn't thought of until he brought it up and then I realized how right he was. Chrom's design had always bugged me but I couldn't really say why exactly but then my brother nailed it.

 

Well, I think you're carrying a fair amount of bias, but that's your opinion. However, the difference between his lord and great lord outfits makes sense. When he is a lord, he is not in charge of a country, he just leads a small militia so he wears simple attire not to be patronizing but because he prefers it, but once he ascends to the throne, he adopts a more regal appearance. And again, just because he's descended from Marth doesn't mean he has to resemble him. Tiki even admits that he doesn't resemble Marth. Also, just because he's based off of Ike doesn't necessarily make him a reskin. I honestly don't know enough about Ike to say any more than that though. 

I think you're putting way to much concern over how he dresses though. It doesn't really matter what he's wearing, he learned aether from somewhere (maybe he just so happened to come up with it on his own), and that is nowhere near the heinous crime you paint it to be.

[SavageVolug]

First of all unit and class design is something I always take notice of. Secondly Eliwood, Ephraim, Hector, Roy ect weren't leading countries either but they still looked like nobility Chrom does not. What bothers me about Chrom is that rather than be his own person it feels like he's imitating previous characters, there's a difference between being similar to a character and copying a character. Hector and Ephrahim are similar in some ways but they are not copies of each other.  Also I think it would have been neat to elaborate more on the significance of the Ylissian Brand as this looked pretty cool and it would have been nice to have more significance about it. I just think Chrom could have been a better character than what he is (although that is true of just about if not every character in Awakening) and the fact that he needs Fredrick and Robin for almost every decision doesn't help.

I think if they had showed war council scenes with Chrom, Bassilo, Fredrik ect throughout the story (not before every battle that would be overkill) maybe at important plot developments it would have made Chrom seem like a more competent leader than feeling like he relies on Fredrik and Robin's decision making skills. As you said this is my opinion but how we perceive something makes all the difference. It dictates whether we will approve, like, or enjoy something how we perceive people will affect how likely we are to make friends with that person ect. It's pretty clear I think Chrom is just a copycat character who needs Fredrik and Robin for almost every decision (not so much in Arc 1 but after that). While you're perception is completely different, and our perceptions can be enforced or changed depending on who we talk to. As I said my brother came to the same opinion as I did and since we talk a lot about Fire Emblem our opinions on Chrom are not likely to change. 

[Arthur97]

1 hour ago, SavageVolug said:

First of all unit and class design is something I always take notice of. Secondly Eliwood, Ephraim, Hector, Roy ect weren't leading countries either but they still looked like nobility Chrom does not. What bothers me about Chrom is that rather than be his own person it feels like he's imitating previous characters, there's a difference between being similar to a character and copying a character. Hector and Ephrahim are similar in some ways but they are not copies of each other.  Also I think it would have been neat to elaborate more on the significance of the Ylissian Brand as this looked pretty cool and it would have been nice to have more significance about it. I just think Chrom could have been a better character than what he is (although that is true of just about if not every character in Awakening) and the fact that he needs Fredrick and Robin for almost every decision doesn't help.

I think if they had showed war council scenes with Chrom, Bassilo, Fredrik ect throughout the story (not before every battle that would be overkill) maybe at important plot developments it would have made Chrom seem like a more competent leader than feeling like he relies on Fredrik and Robin's decision making skills. As you said this is my opinion but how we perceive something makes all the difference. It dictates whether we will approve, like, or enjoy something how we perceive people will affect how likely we are to make friends with that person ect. It's pretty clear I think Chrom is just a copycat character who needs Fredrik and Robin for almost every decision (not so much in Arc 1 but after that). While you're perception is completely different, and our perceptions can be enforced or changed depending on who we talk to. As I said my brother came to the same opinion as I did and since we talk a lot about Fire Emblem our opinions on Chrom are not likely to change. 

Well, Chrom's starting outfit still isn't peasant attire. Have you actually looked at it? All of that blue with gold trim, excessive amounts of buttons, and a generally well made look not to mention that fact that he's parading around the symbol of the royal family on his shoulder (which does give him a reason to only wear one pauldron) means that he really doesn't look like any commoner.

One might argue that Ephraim is copying Hector since they are so similar (both love to fight yet actually make able leaders when the chips are down). A lot of the lords can blur together though, and, yes, I think you are too hard on Chrom. A lot of it comes down to the little things with the lords as they seem to have two archetypes: the gentle (Marth, Eirika, Eliwood) and the rough (Ike, Hector, Ephraim).

[SavageVolug]

Sure Chrom's outfit is blue most protagonists in Fire Emblem are heavily associated with blue whether it's the color of their hair, their outfit or both. What gold? I see blue and grey with a little silver if you count the pauldron. Maybe the official artwork shows details I don't pick up on in the game I don't know but you don't see gold on him until he promotes and has the Fire Emblem. As units Ephraim and Hector are similar in that they are one of the best units of the game for the entire game. The only units with better strength, defense or speed might be a Wyvern lord, Berserker or General. In terms of character Hector is more like Boyd or in some ways similar to Bartre while Ephraim has a calmness to him that reminds me of either Eliwood or Roy.

If it was up to me I would first of all have a few more battles take place before Chrom trusts the avatar so completely. I mean quite honestly Fredrik's concerns do have some merit when their borders have been attacked lately by Plegian bandits, plus it is extremely naive to be so trusting of a complete stranger knowing nothing about their background. I mean all you do is fight two battles and suddenly Chrom trusts you 100% it doesn't make any sense. 

[ckc22]

Not having any 5* or an Insane map killed Fates for me. Coupled with a meta that boiled down to "mycastle everything." I spent way more time playing awakening than all three routes of fates added together simply because the min/max aspect of it and Apotheosis was fun. 

There's a reason why there are threads that are hundreds of pages long on the meta in awakening while fates has virtually nothing at all. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by ckc22