Your opinions on Karel

[Harvey]

So I was looking for Karel overall comments in Fire Emblem wiki and oddly, he doesn't seem to have any comments on his strengths and weaknesses. No one seems to discuss so much about Karel both as a unit and character..even reddit doesn't say much about him.

So I'd like to know your opinions on Karel because I didn't get him on my first playthrough and I'm thinking about using him on my next playthrough. So your opinions about him might convince me to use him.

Now look, I get that Blazing Blade encourages you to use anyone you like and all but...idk. If that was the case, then why do most people use Harken over him? Don't get me wrong, I love Harken and all..but still...kinda feels sad to leave Karel in the dark like that.

 

[Slumber]

Harken is a good substitute for an RNG screwed Raven, who otherwise could be one of the best physical units in the game. Karel isn't even a good replacement for an RNG screwed Guy, who is a decent unit at best. He's a bit stockier than Guy, but otherwise that's about it. Even then, Swordmasters are pretty niche in FE7. The low defenses of late-game enemies makes Swordmasters workable, but they're still not preferable.

There's just not a lot Karel has going for him. He's not an awful unit by any means, but Harken is just a better unit. Plus, Harken gets HM bonuses, while Karel does not.

[De Geso]

@Slumber basically nailed it, but beyond that in FE7 Heroes will always be better than Swordmasters because Hand Axe access and more control over the weapon triangle is far better than a crit bonus. Karel is a fine man, and he can certainly do work during the end game, but Harken does it better.

[Xanaxian]

Harken's niche for me is a solution to Raven's susceptibility to being RNG-screwed, but I haven't really had an RNG-screwed Raven in any of my playthroughs. Harken's definitely a solid unit though.

As for Karel... I kind of like him too. Swordmasters in FE7 aren't nearly the swift powerhouses they were in FE6, but I had a pretty good streak going on with Karel. Objectively, yes, he is a worse unit than Harken, but I'm biased towards swordmasters on the basis of flair and skill/speed. I tried using Guy in one of my playthroughs, and he was made of glass. Also, his strength could barely cut butter. And because I wanted a swordmaster, Karel had to fit the bill.

Perhaps my one experience with Karel was oddly good because of how RNG-blessed he was, but the guy avoided everything thrown at him and actually had decent enough strength and skill to deal some heavy damage. Moreover, the Wo Dao is such a pretty blade...

Edited April 24, 2017 by Xanaxian

[Harvey]

14 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Hand Axe access and more control over the weapon triangle is far better than a crit bonus.

Uggh....I'm sick of this criticism of being sword locked.

There's a reason why swordmasters are swordlocked..because they are swordmasters...they are suppose to master in swords so what do you expect?

Is that the main reason why Karel isn't preferable? Because by that logic, Rutger is better than Dieck in so many ways despite Dieck being useful.

.

 

[Slumber]

9 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Uggh....I'm sick of this criticism of being sword locked.

There's a reason why swordmasters are swordlocked..because they are swordmasters...they are suppose to master in swords so what do you expect?

Is that the main reason why Karel isn't preferable? Because by that logic, Rutger is better than Dieck in so many ways despite Dieck being useful.

.

 

wat

I think you got that second statement backwards. And the comparison of Rutger and Dieck to Harken in Karel doesn't work. Axes in FE6 aren't as good as axes in FE7, so having access to handaxes isn't quite a clear cut advantage, Swordmasters have a higher crit ratio in FE6, and Rutger is the one who gets an HM bonus instead of Dieck.

And yes, being sword-locked sucks in FE7 where everyone and their grandmother has some sort of 1-2 range weapon. Swordies have no practical answer to range. They're fine on your turn, but it's much better to have access to ranged weaponry on enemy phases. Swordmasters just aren't a super good class. Thieves/Assassins at least get utility.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Slumber

[Harvey]

16 minutes ago, Slumber said:

wat

I think you got that second statement backwards. And the comparison of Rutger and Dieck to Harken in Karel doesn't work. Axes in FE6 aren't as good as axes in FE7, so having access to handaxes isn't quite a clear cut advantage, Swordmasters have a higher crit ratio in FE6, and Rutger is the one who gets an HM bonus instead of Dieck.

And yes, being sword-locked sucks in FE7 where everyone and their grandmother has some sort of 1-2 range weapon. Swordies have no practical answer to range. They're fine on your turn, but it's much better to have access to ranged weaponry on enemy phases. Swordmasters just aren't a super good class. Thieves/Assassins at least get utility.

Its not just in FE7..its the class Swordmaster in general. Every single time a swordmaster is made, people often bash at their lack of ranged weapons or that they are stuck on foot and don't use horse.

Ayra is criticized because of her low movement in holy war and the same goes for Rutger..you need to balance units right and me personally, I don't see how being sword locked and having low movement makes a unit that bad so long as their stats are solid. 

 

[De Geso]

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

Its not just in FE7..its the class Swordmaster in general. Every single time a swordmaster is made, people often bash at their lack of ranged weapons or that they are stuck on foot and don't use horse.

Ayra is criticized because of her low movement in holy war and the same goes for Rutger..you need to balance units right and me personally, I don't see how being sword locked and having low movement makes a unit that bad so long as their stats are solid. 

 

But the problem is that he's sword locked AND he's got all the other problems mentioned ITT.

Karel is a decent unit. He's just worse than Harken. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use one over the other, since neither of them are OP hard carries, but Harken is just the superior unit statistically.

Besides that though, being sword and foot locked means no consistent 1-2 range AND you have a hard time keeping up with horse boys. It's part of why units like Roy are considered bad too.

[Harvey]

27 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

But the problem is that he's sword locked AND he's got all the other problems mentioned ITT.

Karel is a decent unit. He's just worse than Harken. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use one over the other, since neither of them are OP hard carries, but Harken is just the superior unit statistically.

Besides that though, being sword and foot locked means no consistent 1-2 range AND you have a hard time keeping up with horse boys. It's part of why units like Roy are considered bad too.

Except like that's the whole point of being a sword master? The class tends to have high skill and speed which means that they will often do critcs more frequently than other units even in FE7.Even if they don't have range attacks, they tend to avoid enemy attacks more frequently than most classes. Its just that FE games don't have much of ranged swords for sword users besides the Binding blade, Xander & Ryoma's main swords, Sol and Amatsu. Most swords like levin sword use magic rather than strength.

I may be new to this but since Swordmasters are dodgers, I still don't see how being sword locked and having low movement makes Karel worse than Harken.

The main problem that Roy has isn't because of him being swordlocked because you can use lancereavers and whatnot. Its his late promotion that's his big problem.

 

[De Geso]

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Except like that's the whole point of being a sword master? The class tends to have high skill and speed which means that they will often do critcs more frequently than other units even in FE7.Even if they don't have range attacks, they tend to avoid enemy attacks more frequently than most classes. Its just that FE games don't have much of ranged swords for sword users besides the Binding blade, Xander & Ryoma's main swords, Sol and Amatsu. Most swords like levin sword use magic rather than strength.

I may be new to this but since Swordmasters are dodgers, I still don't see how being sword locked and having low movement makes Karel worse than Harken.

The main problem that Roy has isn't because of him being swordlocked because you can use lancereavers and whatnot. Its his late promotion that's his big problem.

 

It's about a culmination of problems affecting Karel specifically, man. 

• Bad class (even if you take into account their dodginess they're still just worse Heroes in the GBA games)
• No 1-2 range besides the lol brand (unlike Harken)
• No HM bonuses (unlike Harken)

If you look at Karel in a vacuum and assume Harken doesn't exist, he's still not a great unit. Mediocre growths, average bases, sword locked, no horse, few support options, the list goes on and on. He isn't useless and because FE7 (excluding HHM) isn't that difficult he can be good in the endgame, but unless you like his character (which is reasonable, he's a cool guy) there's no major reason to choose him over Harken ever.

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Bad class (even if you take into account their dodginess they're still just worse Heroes in the GBA games)

This doesn't make any sense..what does bad class have anything to do with the actual unit? By that logic, I can think of several good units that are under bad classes if that's the case. Like archers being the worst class before Gaiden/Echoes and yet you get Virion, Rebecca, Wil etc.

 

1 hour ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

No 1-2 range besides the lol brand (unlike Harken)

Still don't get how that's a flaw with the unit/class but ok whatever....

Now I really don't care how bad Karel is..but the way you're saying the class is overall bad because of sword lock and lack of range is pretty unfair since you do get ranged units and again, as I said eariler..its SWORDMASTERS! Why oh why else would they be called that to begin with?!?!

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Harvey

[De Geso]

10 minutes ago, Harvey said:

This doesn't make any sense..what does bad class have anything to do with the actual unit? By that logic, I can think of several good units that are under bad classes if that's the case. Like archers being the worst class before Gaiden/Echoes and yet you get Virion, Rebecca, Wil etc.

 

Still don't get how that's a flaw with the unit/class but ok whatever....

Now I really don't care how bad Karel is..but the way you're saying the class is overall bad because of sword lock and lack of range is pretty unfair since you do get ranged units and again, as I said eariler..its SWORDMASTERS! Why oh why else would they be called that to begin with?!?!

 

You aren't getting it. 

It is the CULMINATION OF ALL OF THOSE FACTORS that makes Karel a mediocre unit. 

If he had broken stats, he'd be good despite being a swordmaster. If he could use 1-2 range, it could salvage his middling stats. If he had a horse, it could salvage his stats. 

He has all of those things going against him. 

And if you really don't follow how not having 1-2 range in a game where 2/3 or more of the enemies have Javelins/Hand Axes/Tomes/Bows is bad then I don't know what to say. 

If you get other ranged units, why would you ever use units that can't use 2 range unless they are INSANELY powerful/force deployed, rather than just using another Paladin or Hero? Besides liking them, that is. And if you like Swordmasters that's fine! You can like whatever you want and use whatever you want. I like using L'Arachel in Sacred Stones and I know she's a mediocre unit for her join time, I just don't care. 

[Moblin Major General]

9 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Still don't get how that's a flaw with the unit/class but ok whatever....

FE7 is as close to Mage Emblem as you can get, and is also sort of Archer Emblem as well. Without the Light Brand and (much later) the Runesword, Swordmasters are extremely vulnerable, especially on Hector Mode Cog of Destiny. Also, those blades target Res at 2 range, which most mages will have a non-zero amount of. Will Guy or Karel get hit? Most likely not, if they are blessed, but why would you want to take that chance? You say that the swordmaster is a whirlwind? That is true, but isn't a whirlwind easily stalled by a mountain?

[Just call me AL]

10 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

FE7 is as close to Mage Emblem as you can get, and is also sort of Archer Emblem as well. 

I don't think that's the case, though. Since no mage is particularly stellar in FE7 for a good chunk of the game. Definitely not in regards to anyone who's bowlocked.

[Moblin Major General]

Just now, Just call me AL said:

I don't think that's the case, though. Since no mage is particularly stellar in FE7 for a good chunk of the game. Definitely not in regards to anyone who's bowlocked.

Enemy Mages. There are lots of mages, sages, monks, bishops, shamans, and druids on the enemy side. If you lack 1-2 range, they will fuck you.

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Enemy Mages. There are lots of mages, sages, monks, bishops, shamans, and druids on the enemy side. If you lack 1-2 range, they will fuck you.

And then...there's Pent.

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

What Swordmasters as a class is supposed to be, is different from what is most desirable in the game overall. Other classes have more desirable attributes than SMs do for FE7 (being played with some notion of efficiency in mind).

If you like SMs, there is no problem with that, use them as you will. Let your personal style be your style, most will respect that. 

[Just call me AL]

6 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Enemy Mages. There are lots of mages, sages, monks, bishops, shamans, and druids on the enemy side. If you lack 1-2 range, they will fuck you.

And normally, when someone refers to an FE installment as "X Emblem", they're often referring to playable units.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Even among Swordmasters, Karel is workable but not very impressive. His HP and avoid are both significantly lower than Guy's, and his offensive advantage ranges from marginal to non-existent/reversed depending on whether Matthew is in play for Guy to support. That's a comparison to NM Guy, never mind HHM.