The word "Echoes" and "series of remakes" notion

[Apples]

My two cents, but I haven't been a fan of the "Echoes" part of the title from day one. It makes the title sound clunkier and it looks like a goofy last-minute addition on the logo. I wouldn't like a remake sub-series to be called "Echoes" and hope that it is indeed just to sound "cool" by the developers. The logo is probably one of if not the biggest contributing factors to the remake speculation. The internet doesn't need much of a spark to be set ablaze in speculation. 

[shadowofchaos]

8 minutes ago, BlizzardWolf95 said:

If we compare both Echoes and Fates Japanese titles, stylistically, "Echoes" and "if" are written in English, whilst the secondary titles are written in Japanese. In Fates, this was to showcase that it had different, yet connected, versions, while there's no legitimate reason for Echoes to even be present on the title at all, as ファイアーエムブレム: もうひとりの英雄王 would've sufficed, or hell, even just ファイアーエムブレム: エコーズ. This is what leads me personally to believe that this would be the first in a set of Echoes games, likely remakes, at least in the most hopeful of conditions.

I have a direct counter for you.

"Fire Emblem: New Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light" (Shadow Dragon)

"Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem ~Heroes of Light and Shadow~"

They didn't need the last part for FE12. Yet they did.

Edited April 24, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I don't fault the person who catches something in writing and takes it as a "possibility" while fully understanding what the word means.

I pity the fool who catches something in writing, takes it as evidence and goes on to suggest it's fact or "definitely happening".

Quote

I can definitely see SoC's point, and I'd never say "Echoes being in the title means that every game is getting a remake for certain", but honestly, the only way to truly find out is to just wait and see if the Echoes subtitle ever appears again. I do agree saying that it's concrete evidence is foolish, especially when looking at the linguistic facts.

Bingo.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Captain Karnage]

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

I have a direct counter for you.

"Fire Emblem: New Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light" (Shadow Dragon)

"Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem ~Heroes of Light and Shadow~"

They didn't need the last part for FE12. Yet they did.

I don't think that they were planning "that" far ahead

and the Japanese title was New Dark Dragon and The Sword of Light  New Dark Dragon and the Sword of LightNew Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light

and now your comparing an English title with a Japanese title

[omegaxis1]

Honestly, the title of "Echoes" never once convinced me that there was some subseries making of remakes at all. Its purely the fact that we even have a Gaiden remake that convinced me of the possibility. Out of all the games, Gaiden feels like the most out of place series compared to other titles, alongside Sacred Stones. Now, not saying it was bad. Its more like how Gaiden never got its own sequel or anything. There was nothing saying the "Valentia series" at all. 

We have:

- Archanea

- Jugdral

- Elibe

- Tellius

Magvel and Valentia are the only ones without a series mark to them. Okay, Ylisse and Valm can sort of count as that, but not that much. 

So seeing how the Japan exclusive of Gaiden is being remade, despite how there's every bit of chance or likelihood of there being a Binding Blade remake, we get Gaiden remake instead. So this just opens up to the large possibility of Echoes being a door for the possibility of there being a remake, but only from its existence, not for a title that has no meaning as of yet. 

Also, what the other guy said. It makes no sense that we should look so deeply into a title like "Echoes" when there's really no evidence to back it up.

[BlizzardWolf95]

2 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I have a direct counter for you.

"Fire Emblem: New Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light" (Shadow Dragon)

"Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem ~Heroes of Light and Shadow~"

They didn't need the last part for FE12. Yet they did.

Japan's love of flashy titles really is a double-edged sword. It makes every one sound epic and unique, but can throw consistency out the window, given the right circumstances. 

That said, if another remake comes up in the future and doesn't feature the "Echoes" title, it'll be amusing to imagine the Japanese fanbase not even skipping a beat in accepting the new title, while the English speaking fanbase is too busy freaking out about why IS didn't call it Echoes.

[sirmola]

The primary reason that I was convinced that the word echoes heralded a sequal is because I am currently playing "Etrian Odyssey Untold: The Millennium Girl". Which is a remake of etrian odyssey with the same tital format, which was duly followed by "Etrian Odyssey 2 Untold: The Fafnir Knight". For reference, the japanese titals are 新・世界樹の迷宮 ミレニアムの少女 and 新・世界樹の迷宮2 ファフニールの騎士 Respectively. Wikipedia translates these as: "New Yggdrasil Labyrinth: Millennium Girl" and "New Labyrinth of the World Tree 2 The Knight of Fafnir" respectively. (keep in mind that the series is called "Yggdrasil Labyrinth" in japan. the origional first game had no subtital, and the second game had an entirely different subtital) However, in that case, the tital format was adopted by the translaters because just slapping the word "new" on the front of the title does not work in english. THis does show how this tital format can imply "remake series" in english but not japanese. Keeping that in mind, there is another possibility: it is possible that the english localisers intend echoes to imply "remake series", even if intsys did not.

Edited April 24, 2017 by sirmola

[VincentASM]

37 minutes ago, BlizzardWolf95 said:

If we compare both Echoes and Fates Japanese titles, stylistically, "Echoes" and "if" are written in English, whilst the secondary titles are written in Japanese. In Fates, this was to showcase that it had different, yet connected, versions, while there's no legitimate reason for Echoes to even be present on the title at all, as ファイアーエムブレム: もうひとりの英雄王 would've sufficed, or hell, even just ファイアーエムブレム: エコーズ. This is what leads me personally to believe that this would be the first in a set of Echoes games, likely remakes, at least in the most hopeful of conditions.

The way I understand it and this is just conjecture on my part.

They couldn't re-use "Gaiden" because it's too generic. It literally means "sidestory" so if they had called it "Fire Emblem Gaiden: Another Hero-King", people in Japan would think it's merely a new spin-off, not something connected to the original Fire Emblem Gaiden.

Therefore, they substituted "Gaiden" for a similar and cooler-sounding name, "Echoes". But then they needed a way to make Japanese players understand the connection since "Echoes" means nothing to them. Hence the subtitle "Another Hero-King".

In any case, I do agree it's clunky.

Likewise, I agree we'll only find out in many years. Which is sadly an eternity on the Internet : P

Edited April 24, 2017 by VincentASM

[Falcom]

39 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Again, everyone is sourcing English. That is my main point. All the time.

I mean it's not like people can easily understand Japanese like you. Not to mention google translator is not always accurate. It's just I think people kinda want some sort of official confirmation of the translated title. As such, people automatically assume that it's the translated title rather than a modified and exotic one (and will often times not look it up, like me for instance just now). I looked up Echoes in Japanese and translated it with google and yeah I suppose you're right since it says 'Another Hero King'. But that's what happens when Nintendo of America decides to cut that part out.

56 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

SoC will probably get to it eventually, but it's called "World of Echoes" in the Japanese version. I am not sure why they changed it in the localisation. Plus it will be really awkward if they ever decide to do Shadow Dragon (although I doubt it since Mystery seems to be the main world).

Is it really called World of Echoes in Japanese? *facepalm* Why do they have to make this complicated?!
Ahem. Well then. Also the chapter name, "World of Dragon" kinda sounds cool and silly at the same time.

[shadowofchaos]

40 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

I don't think that they were planning "that" far ahead

and the Japanese title was New Dark Dragon and The Sword of Light  New Dark Dragon and the Sword of LightNew Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light

and now your comparing an English title with a Japanese title

Where?

I was comparing Japanese titles for FE11 and FE12. Both of which are "New" + Old Title.

But FE11 didn't have a subtitle and FE12 did. With no implications of other associated titles like If.

[Thane]

I've honestly never really assumed the word Echoes guarantees a set of remakes. I'm sure remakes will happen (at least provided Shadows of Valentia and the rest of the series do well) anyway.

That being said, who knows, maybe Shadows of Valentia's Echoes will be Legacy or Legends or some other generic word like that for Genealogy of the Holy War.

[Troykv]

I'll never understand way Shadows of Valentia/Another Hero-King has a part of its title in english... At least in Fire Emblem If I can understand it contextually...

The problem isn't making a "stylish" usage of English, it's more a.... Why they do it now? A franchise where pretty much every other game outside of these two its named completely in JP in the Japanese fandom (even Heroes, that uses both an mainly English Logo and Japanese Subtitles below)... It's so random.

[sirmola]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

I've honestly never really assumed the word Echoes guarantees a set of remakes. I'm sure remakes will happen (at least provided Shadows of Valentia and the rest of the series do well) anyway.

That being said, who knows, maybe Shadows of Valentia's Echoes will be Legacy or Legends or some other generic word like that for Genealogy of the Holy War.

They might also reuse echoes in the US but not japan, simply because it works better in english than in japanese.

[shadowofchaos]

One could say that the Echoes in "Fire Emblem: Echoes" is literally "New Gaiden".

"Fire Emblem: New Gaiden ~Another Hero King~"

Like if anything I was surprised the "remake subseries" wasn't the 新 shin kanji in front of the title.

Edited April 24, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[sirmola]

8 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

One could say that the Echoes in "Fire Emblem: Echoes" is literally "New Gaiden".

"Fire Emblem: New Gaiden ~Another Hero King~"

Like if anything I was surprised the "remake subseries" wasn't the 新 shin kanji in front of the title.

I note that that kangi is in front of both of the etrian odyssey titles that a pasted in above.

[shadowofchaos]

4 minutes ago, sirmola said:

I note that that kangi is in front of both of the etrian odyssey titles that a pasted in above.

Yeah I got that.

But just as Vincent said, they couldn't reuse Gaiden.

And Shin Gaiden is a... well it doesn't work.

新 ▪ 外伝 doesn't look pretty or mean anything.

Echoes was most likely used as a substitute. And since it doesn't mean anything to the typical Japanese speaker... the subtitle "Another Hero King" was tacked on.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I feel like the word Echoes is not solid evidence of a series of remakes. However, Doing a third remake of a game from the Kaga Saga, and that particular game being Gaiden? You've got to admit it's a little suspicious. Who wanted a Gaiden remake? It does not star Marth or any character the JP community explicitly likes. And we in the West had a fringe knowledge of the game as well. If they wanted to do a remake for the basic reason any franchise wants to do a remake (money for low effort), why not go with Elibe? Tellius? Literally any other title besides I guess Thraccia on its own.

Choosing Gaiden implies that legacy is high on their priority list, perhaps higher than what fans explicitly ask for. 

[Armagon]

26 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

I feel like the word Echoes is not solid evidence of a series of remakes. However, Doing a third remake of a game from the Kaga Saga, and that particular game being Gaiden? You've got to admit it's a little suspicious. Who wanted a Gaiden remake? It does not star Marth or any character the JP community explicitly likes. And we in the West had a fringe knowledge of the game as well. If they wanted to do a remake for the basic reason any franchise wants to do a remake (money for low effort), why not go with Elibe? Tellius? Literally any other title besides I guess Thraccia on its own.

Choosing Gaiden implies that legacy is high on their priority list, perhaps higher than what fans explicitly ask for. 

I mean, the other two Archanea games got remakes. Remaking Gaiden makes a whole lot of sense, as then, all three Archanea games will have been remade. Plus, Gaiden was in desperate need of a remake.

 

I will agree that an Elibe or Tellius remake would sell a lot more tho.

[Agro]

You've gotta admit, the way the title screen is designed, it makes Echoes look like a subseries of the main game

[shadowofchaos]

44 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

I feel like the word Echoes is not solid evidence of a series of remakes. However, Doing a third remake of a game from the Kaga Saga, and that particular game being Gaiden? You've got to admit it's a little suspicious. Who wanted a Gaiden remake? It does not star Marth or any character the JP community explicitly likes. And we in the West had a fringe knowledge of the game as well. If they wanted to do a remake for the basic reason any franchise wants to do a remake (money for low effort), why not go with Elibe? Tellius? Literally any other title besides I guess Thraccia on its own.

Choosing Gaiden implies that legacy is high on their priority list, perhaps higher than what fans explicitly ask for. 

There are possibly other reasons:

That being that one of the key mechanics of Gaiden's is the lack of weapon durability.

IIRC, one of the interviews from devs said that they're pretty much doing away with that feature.

3 minutes ago, Agro said:

You've gotta admit, the way the title screen is designed, it makes Echoes look like a subseries of the main game

Yet, despite being the same in Japanese format... it has never been mentioned in any of the Japanese BBS sites that I've seen.

If it has been discussed, it's very rare.

Edited April 24, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Pikappa93]

I saw a lot of speculation about Echoes being intended as a remake subseries, but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, for reasons you all already explained.

Anyway, I believe opinions from Japanese speakers like shadowofchaos are the most reliable for this particular matter, so I gotta agree with him.

[shadowofchaos]

3 minutes ago, Pikappa93 said:

I saw a lot of speculation about Echoes being intended as a remake subseries, but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, for reasons you all already explained.

Anyway, I believe opinions from Japanese speakers like shadowofchaos are the most reliable for this particular matter, so I gotta agree with him.

I'm gonna ping more Japanese speakers too, then.

@Ice Dragon (If you don't want to weigh in on this, then I apologize for dragging you into here)

@Kirokan You're like the well known translator for other FE media. I'll probably ping you on twitter too.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

15 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I mean, the other two Archanea games got remakes. Remaking Gaiden makes a whole lot of sense, as then, all three Archanea games will have been remade. Plus, Gaiden was in desperate need of a remake.

See I don't think that's good enough. They didn't "save" Gaiden for when they could develop on better hardware, they skipped it entirely.

That having been said, I've given it more thought, and the Archanea connection may hold some water given the crisis the franchise faced during the DS/Wii generation, and that the eventual next title was Awakening. Maybe a trilogy of remakes (FE1-3) was meant to be their setup for Awakening which revisits lore of those three games. I'm interested to know if they wanted to do Gaiden as a third DS game but the plans fell through.

2 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

There are possibly other reasons:

That being that one of the key mechanics of Gaiden's is the lack of weapon durability.

IIRC, one of the interviews from devs said that they're pretty much doing away with that feature.

Well I can only see that as coincidence. And not one of the premier features that makes Gaiden stand out, like town exploration, random battles, other Final Fantasy standards. While it's true that in pre-fates terms Gaiden was unique for its lack of weapon durability, I'm almost certain that decision wasn't made for the sake of nuanced weapon balance like it is now. Heck I even have a theory that the HP cost of spells was simply due to them being incapable of programming a separate mana bar for mages.

[shadowofchaos]

4 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

Well I can only see that as coincidence. And not one of the premier features that makes Gaiden stand out, like town exploration, random battles, other Final Fantasy standards. While it's true that in pre-fates terms Gaiden was unique for its lack of weapon durability, I'm almost certain that decision wasn't made for the sake of nuanced weapon balance like it is now. Heck I even have a theory that the HP cost of spells was simply due to them being incapable of programming a separate mana bar for mages.

Well another possibility is that the devs actually wanted Gaiden to be what it was supposed to be.

Like it's ridiculously faithful. To a fault.

The first got a remake as the third... and even remade after that.

While Gaiden is pretty much *UNKNOWN* to most FE fans of this day. Even among people here, it wasn't exactly the most played game among the veterans.

[Pikappa93]

4 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

While Gaiden is pretty much *UNKNOWN* to most FE fans of this day. Even among people here, it wasn't exactly the most played game among the veterans.

Just to further validate what you're saying, sometime ago an old fan wrote an interesting retrospective of the FE fandom pre-FE6 release and I remember him claiming Gaiden had always been the less popular FE title even back then. Like, very few people played it and nobody used to talk about it. Probably it was barely recognized as a "proper" FE because of how weird it is.