How to fix Swordmasters?

[eclipse]

18 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Just for the record, I haven't played FE9 and FE10. Its just that whenever I see comments about units who are swordmasters, the criticism that is most common is lack of ranged weapons and being swordlocked.

In the older games, a good chunk of a unit's quality focused on their enemy phase performance.  Thanks to Fates, most 1-2 range weapons were heavily nerfed, which gave swords an indirect buff.

But if you really want to buff swordmasters, make more maps with inaccurate axe units.

[Jedi]

11 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Idk..FE13 seemed to have great ones like Lon'qu, Stahl and Owain?

Awakening is a game dominated by 1-2 range, and Swordmasters lack a good options for it, while they can work. They aren't the best by any stretch. 

3 hours ago, Augestein said:

Yeah, but that's my point. He's not entirely broken. The weapon makes him broken, but he's still a good unit with his prf.

He's hilariously broken still, you just made a point that if you intentionally gimp him, he's not. Which no one in their right mind would do, do note that even if he can't use Raijinto he still gets a 4+ str boost, despite not being able to wield it. Even without the access to swords he'd be solid. But doing so intentionally (unless you're making him a Pegasus or something for whatever reason) is kind of strange. 

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

People don't praise him because of redundancy when Shiva and Mareeta exist.

His tankiness aside, his skill growth's lower, but not enough for it to be a problem, his strength is lower, but again, not enough to be a problem given the caps of the game, and his speed, luck, defense and build are the exact same as Shiva's.

If you adjust Shiva's levels to match Troude's bases, Shiva has 3 lower HP than Troude, 1 lower bld, 1 higher speed, 2 higher luck, while speed, strength, defense and magic are the exact same. By 20/20, they'll both probably cap strength, skill, speed and luck, while Troude will have higher HP by 10 points and build by 1 point, while Shiva gets nothing over him.

The only things really separating Troude and Shiva are their skills, both of which are good, and not outstanding(Nihil for Troude, Sol for Shiva).

And you don't even get Troude late enough to the point where he's unusable. He joins two chapters after Mareeta, but 6 levels higher.

There's absolutely nothing about Troude that would make him "bad" or "not solid" while considering Shiva "good". They're definitely not on opposite ends of the spectrum. EXP is abundant enough in FE5 that you can pretty freely swap units in and out pretty consistently(And is actually expected of you from a gameplay perspective), so Troude joining 8 chapters later isn't actually that big of a deal. The game tosses low level units from chapter 14 onward and you can pretty comfortably use all of them.

If you suddenly decide after getting Mareeta that you want to use another Swordmaster, I'd recommend Troude over Shiva simply due to how similar the two are, with Troude being a higher level.

Whos going to 20/20 in Thracia? The lower caps means you benefit from early promotion even more than usual, Shiva gets a massive headstart if you're using him. Neither are particularly good compared to a good number of units in Thracia to begin with though.

Nihil would be a good skill, if it was like relevant besides 2 or 3 certain enemies in the game. Trewd isn't bad, you're right. But he's not really comparable to Shiva, and has less PCC to boot. 

Plus by the time Trewd shows up, you should have a good number of S-Drinks. To entirely mitigate fatigue.

[Slumber]

19 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Whos going to 20/20 in Thracia? The lower caps means you benefit from early promotion even more than usual, Shiva gets a massive headstart if you're using him. Neither are particularly good compared to a good number of units in Thracia to begin with though.

Nihil would be a good skill, if it was like relevant besides 2 or 3 certain enemies in the game. Trewd isn't bad, you're right. But he's not really comparable to Shiva, and has less PCC to boot. 

Plus by the time Trewd shows up, you should have a good number of S-Drinks. To entirely mitigate fatigue.

Experience is abundant enough in Thracia that going 20/20 really isn't a problem. I've only ever promoted a few very specific utility units early(Like Marty), and it's never been a problem getting units to 20/20. The lower caps are generally balanced out by generally lower bases and middle-y growths. Shiva's 45% strength growth is considered "high". Plus, with scrolls being a thing, and movement have its own growth tied to it, you're really not doing yourself any favors by limiting your chances of leveling up movement. On top of this, very, very few units will cap HP, even at 20/20, so giving yourself more HP is never a bad idea.

True, Troude's PCC is quite a bit lower than Shiva's, but it's not like a case with Asbel where having high PCC immediately makes him way better because of something intrinsic to him(IE Crit multiplier on Grafcalibur). Shiva's probably not earning himself a spot on the team because of his PCC, though it is definitely something Troude will never make up for, unless you waste your Wrath book on him. But Nihil's a solid skill in the end game, since the last stretch of chapters just gives bosses obnoxious skills, and the prevalence of Big Shield makes Nihil handy throughout the game. Sol's generally too unreliable for me to place it that highly, which is why I think both are alright skills. They're both nice additions to solid units, but I don't think one is above the other.

Also, I think you only have like, two or three S-drinks by the time you get Troude, unless you're spending your money on them in the few shops they show up in. You should probably be using them to make sure units like Orsin or Asbel get more play, either way. If you're going to waste them on any Sword Fighter/Sword Master, you're going to be using them on Mareeta, who probably won't be higher than level 5 by the time you get Troude.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Irysa]

4 hours ago, Slumber said:

Experience is abundant enough in Thracia that going 20/20 really isn't a problem.

There's basically no reason to wait to 20 to promote in Thracia for like, anyone. You should be promoting units as soon as possible because promotion gains are insane in that game and the enemy stat curve isn't steep. Caps are low but hitting the caps matters even less because base + promotion and Wrath Linoan, Sety and Sara can handle the lategame that you can't just skip.

Trewd isn't bad but Shiva is already a pretty superfluous unit, so a later and slightly worse version of him isn't exactly making waves.

 

On the main topic, just have enemies that are dangerous enough that you want to double and ORKO them and that difficult to double for classes that aren't Swordmasters. Done.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Irysa

[Shadow Mir]

19 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

As of Fates Swordmasters are a good class. Ryoma being overpowered notwithstanding, Hana and Hinata are both very strong units as SMs. Mounted units are no longer at as much of an advantage as they were previously (the higher mov does help them but it isn't like they are strictly better because of it). 

Swordmasters are fine.

I seriously doubt that - I thought Fates Swordmasters were no better than in other games, particularly Hana, who's sunk if anything physical hits her.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[De Geso]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I seriously doubt that - I thought Fates Swordmasters were no better than in other games, particularly Hana, who's sunk if anything physical hits her.

The 1-2 range nerf (Javelins and Hand Axes can't double and get doubled easier, Spears and Tomahawks are 2 range only) would have helped them enough, but the game also gave Swordmasters access to those types of weapons as well via Wakizashi and Kodachi. 

1-2 range was Swordmasters' biggest issue and it's been alleviated in Fates, how on Earth are they not better?

Edited April 26, 2017 by YouSquiddinMe

[ping]

This reminds me a bit of this thread over in General FE, or more specifically the distinction between the classes and the units in it. I can't say anything definitive about Fates' balancing, so I'll just put out the question if Hana does better or would do better in a different class. Are her problems part of her class, or does she just have bad stats, or stats that don't work well with the swordmaster's base stats, class growths, and skills? And on the other side of the spectrum, how well does Ryoma do when he's reclassed into another class with a sword rank? Is the swordmaster class part of why he's broken?

Out of the games I've played myself (6-12), I agree with Jedi that they were at their best in 6 and 12, quite decent in 10 and mediocre at best otherwise (not counting 11 because I'm not as familiar with it as I am with the others). In 6, Rutger would certainly be great in every class except maybe knight (assuming that his stats wouldn't change), but the swordmaster's big crit boost allows him to kill enemies and particularly bosses on player phase with much higher reliability. The following games not only nerfed the crit bonus, but enemies are generally easier to kill, making the SM's niche less valuable than it was in FE6.

In 12, they're a bit more situational, although they might be useful more often on the highest difficulties, when their high speed (both base and cap) and maybe sword rank (for magic-oriented characters to use the levin sword) are relevant.

So yeah, that would be two ways to make the class relevant while keeping their traditional Skl/Spd focus: Have enemies that other classes struggle to hit, don't drop the crit boost, and make sure there is actually a difference between 26 and 30 speed (to take the Hero and SM caps in the GBA games as an example) in the later parts of the game. Making dodge-tanking against axe users reliable would help too, but that would not be as big a boost to the class itself, unless it gets a flat +avoid bonus or the higher speed compared to heroes and other swordwielding classes makes a difference.

[Augestein]

8 hours ago, Jedi said:

He's hilariously broken still, you just made a point that if you intentionally gimp him, he's not. Which no one in their right mind would do, do note that even if he can't use Raijinto he still gets a 4+ str boost, despite not being able to wield it. Even without the access to swords he'd be solid. But doing so intentionally (unless you're making him a Pegasus or something for whatever reason) is kind of strange. 

Not really. Without raijinto in his inventory, he's just above average. But having extra avoid and critical is enough to make swordmaster a good class. Without that, he still has shaky defense and okay attack... Still needing to rely on evasion.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

The 1-2 range nerf (Javelins and Hand Axes can't double and get doubled easier, Spears and Tomahawks are 2 range only) would have helped them enough, but the game also gave Swordmasters access to those types of weapons as well via Wakizashi and Kodachi. 

1-2 range was Swordmasters' biggest issue and it's been alleviated in Fates, how on Earth are they not better?

Granted, lack of 1-2 range was the biggest issue Swordmasters suffered from, and nerfing that helped... But it didn't help ENOUGH, especially in the face of Fates bitchslapping evade with the nerf bat. So in the end, we have a class that tends to have shaky defence, and has to rely on something that's less reliable than ever to survive. That's no bueno.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[De Geso]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Granted, lack of 1-2 range was the biggest issue Swordmasters suffered from, and nerfing that helped... But it didn't help ENOUGH, especially in the face of Fates bitchslapping evade with the nerf bat. So in the end, we have a class that tends to have shaky defence, and has to rely on something that's less reliable than ever to survive. That's no bueno.

I said they're "fine" as in they're in a fine place right now, where before they were just outclassed. They are serviceable units that can get the job done and have a role to fill on a given team. I didn't say they were the best class or even particularly good. They're just fine. 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

I said they're "fine" as in they're in a fine place right now, where before they were just outclassed. They are serviceable units that can get the job done and have a role to fill on a given team. I didn't say they were the best class or even particularly good. They're just fine. 

Compared to what games, though? This is the main issue I have with your prior statement. Also, it's a matter of perspective - I don't see Swordmasters as "fine" in Fates because of the evade nerf making their lackluster defenses harder to ignore.

[ping]

Well, I'd say that the swordmaster class is very clearly inferior to heroes in both FE7 and FE8. I don't think there is any huge benefit from having more than 26 speed, and the +15 crit isn't enough to make banking on a crit as reliable as it was in FE6 where Rutger and Fir could comfortably hit 80% crit or so. OTOH, hand axes are a E rank weapon in both games, giving Heroes an instant 1-2 range option that swordmasters lack. In PoR, swordmasters are probably the worst physical class except for archers - ranged swords are both magical (which none of the swordmasters are any good in) and limited in supply, even axe users don't have huge issues hitting stuff thanks to forging and the general whimpiness of the enemy, and of course horses and especially flyers reign supreme. There is really very little that the swordmastser class has going; even their caps are largely meaningless.

Again, I'm not familiar with Fates' gameplay, but in many of the older games, the _class_ swordmaster just sucks. Mind that I'm explicitly talking about the class and not necessarily the units in it, even though I think that Joshua isn't quite as good as many claim ;) But I'll repeat my question for these games: Would Guy/Joshua/FE9!Mia be better or worse in a different class with identical stats? Because as long as they don't change into archers, I'm pretty sure that this time the answer is "better" in all three cases.

[Extrasolar]

I think swordmasters for the most part are perfectly fine where they are, and I actually really like them. People complain about the swordlock a lot, but from my experience that's never a problem, simply due to hugenormous amount of axe units that the enemy fields in general. The weapon triangle in the main games aren't really make or break like it tends to be in Heroes.

But the swordmaster class' strength is very delicate, so to speak, as they require a favorable RNG in order to truly shine.

When you get Fates' weird 1 Rn when calculating hit percentages sub 50, swordmasters suddenly start getting hit by 30% hits that otherwise they'd easily dodge, and it's then that their awful HP and defense starts to shine through. I can only see that Rn change as a way to nerf the prevalence of dodgetanking in the Tellius games and Awakening, as a dodgetanking swordmaster that proc'd Astra or a crit was pretty much a one-man army, no matter what was thrown at them.

Without those crits, their mediocre attack starts showing through, and they stop one-round killing things with decent defense, despite doubling them most every single time. A swordmaster who can't proc a crit or an Astra, or dodge attacks thrown at him, is a very sub optimal unit that's liable to get itself killed very quickly due to its low defenses and HP.

While other classes may not dominate like a swordmaster with a favorable RNG, their performance is generally more consistent - armors will always be slow, good at tanking physical hits (unless they're named Meg...), and with good attack but with poor resistance and movement, for instance. Mages will be fragile to physical hits, but tear through armors.

Swordmasters are ultimate luck-based glass cannons, which with a slight tweaking of RNG and some bad luck can be rendered pretty bad as units.

Of course, this is speaking of the default swordmaster stat spread, not a tank like Hinata or a god purposefully strong unit like Ryoma.

There's really not much you can do to the default swordmaster spread that would "fix" their weaknesses, other than buffing their defensive stats in order to make them less RNG/luck reliant, but that turns them less into glass cannons and more into strong all-arounders, which is where the mercenary class is meant to be (with less luck, speed and crit stuff).

Edited April 26, 2017 by Extrasolar

[De Geso]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Compared to what games, though? This is the main issue I have with your prior statement. Also, it's a matter of perspective - I don't see Swordmasters as "fine" in Fates because of the evade nerf making their lackluster defenses harder to ignore.

Compared to the GBA games and Awakening where they were completely awful? (Besides FE6 because I know someone will be petty enough to say it)

And if it's a matter of perspective why do you insist on bickering with me at every opportunity?

Edited April 27, 2017 by YouSquiddinMe

[Augestein]

2 hours ago, ping said:

Well, I'd say that the swordmaster class is very clearly inferior to heroes in both FE7 and FE8. I don't think there is any huge benefit from having more than 26 speed, and the +15 crit isn't enough to make banking on a crit as reliable as it was in FE6 where Rutger and Fir could comfortably hit 80% crit or so. OTOH, hand axes are a E rank weapon in both games, giving Heroes an instant 1-2 range option that swordmasters lack. In PoR, swordmasters are probably the worst physical class except for archers - ranged swords are both magical (which none of the swordmasters are any good in) and limited in supply, even axe users don't have huge issues hitting stuff thanks to forging and the general whimpiness of the enemy, and of course horses and especially flyers reign supreme. There is really very little that the swordmastser class has going; even their caps are largely meaningless.

Again, I'm not familiar with Fates' gameplay, but in many of the older games, the _class_ swordmaster just sucks. Mind that I'm explicitly talking about the class and not necessarily the units in it, even though I think that Joshua isn't quite as good as many claim ;) But I'll repeat my question for these games: Would Guy/Joshua/FE9!Mia be better or worse in a different class with identical stats? Because as long as they don't change into archers, I'm pretty sure that this time the answer is "better" in all three cases.

Guy would definitely be better as a different class. Randomizers show that enough. He's still decent though. So Joshua is the same deal. Mia on the other hand? Is just mediocre. She's basically Ike but weaker. Changing her class wouldn't help with that outside of giving her different base stats. She'd still be lackluster. 

In Fates, Swordmasters get a bonus of +10 critical and + 10 avoid. Sure the critical is less than 15 or 30, but it also reverted back to PoR styled Astra where you can critical on the hits, AND it fills up a shield gauge automatically if you're paired up. With Duelist Blow, they are looking at a flat out +40 avoid on player phase-- combine that with any unit that has decent speed, and the chances of you getting hit are pretty low. Swordmasters in Fates are basically 1 range archers that point at a unit and destroy it. It's nice to have, as there are enough 2-range units that wreck you at moments to cause problems. Hana isn't a great unit, but that's largely because people are used to throwing their Swordmaster into a sea of enemies and watching them all die-- something people like Ryoma can do, and because screw dodge tanking when you can use people like Azama, Rinkah or Oboro. Instead what Hana does is look at someone on Player Phase and they die with little problems. But if you had someone tankier like say... Silas turn into a swordmaster? He'd be pretty happy too. Having extra avoid would be nice, and the base speed for Silas would help him to actually start doubling things that he wouldn't as a Pally or a Great Knight. And with his durability, he could make some use of Vantage as well-- which is now HP reliant rather than speed like RD. 

The class isn't winning awards for "best class," but it's no longer just a crappy hero that can't use axes and gets an underwhelming critical bonus. Instead it's a 1 range nuke. And it's one of the few classes that gets good skills from start to finish. It's easier to see in Fates that they wanted Swordmaster to be the offensive sword class and hero to be the defensive one with skills like Good Fortune that heal you on your turn, Sol, Strong Riposte (more damage on enemy phase counters) etc. It actually has a niche now. 

[Refa]

58 minutes ago, Augestein said:

Guy would definitely be better as a different class. Randomizers show that enough. He's still decent though. So Joshua is the same deal. Mia on the other hand? Is just mediocre. She's basically Ike but weaker. Changing her class wouldn't help with that outside of giving her different base stats. She'd still be lackluster. 

Changing her base stats wouldn't make her better?  Really?  Assuming the same personal bases, as a wyvern rider she'd have...

Lv4 23HP 10Str 9Skl 10Spd 6Lck 11Def 2Res

That's better than Jill (at a lower level to boot), and most of her growths are either comparable or better.  Of course she'd be better as a different class lol.  Even as a worse class, say Fighter, she's be better thanks to having better bases and access to a better weapon type (not to mention her growths would work better with these classes).

Lv4 28HP 9Str 8Skl 10Spd 6Lck 7Def 1Res

Edited April 27, 2017 by Refa

[Jedi]

Yeah Mia as a wyvern would actually outdo Jill due to awesome class bases, an amazing weapon type for Tellius and early join time plus BEXP.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Compared to the GBA games and Awakening where they were completely awful? (Besides FE6 because I know someone will be petty enough to say it)

And if it's a matter of perspective why do you insist on bickering with me at every opportunity?

Granted, they were lackluster in those games you mentioned due to various reasons, but I fail to see them as significantly better in Fates, where they're surprisingly hittable and one or two unlucky rolls means the next thing you're gonna be doing is reaching for L R Start (other than Hinata, who's the exception and not the rule).

Because some of the stuff you post, I can't help but disagree with.

6 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

People complain about the swordlock a lot, but from my experience that's never a problem, simply due to hugenormous amount of axe units that the enemy fields in general.

Erm, which games do you play that you see a lot of axe units, as opposed to lancers? Because in general, I've seen some FEs referred to as lance heavy.

3 hours ago, Augestein said:

In Fates, Swordmasters get a bonus of +10 critical and + 10 avoid. Sure the critical is less than 15 or 30, but it also reverted back to PoR styled Astra where you can critical on the hits, AND it fills up a shield gauge automatically if you're paired up. With Duelist Blow, they are looking at a flat out +40 avoid on player phase-- combine that with any unit that has decent speed, and the chances of you getting hit are pretty low. Swordmasters in Fates are basically 1 range archers that point at a unit and destroy it. It's nice to have, as there are enough 2-range units that wreck you at moments to cause problems. Hana isn't a great unit, but that's largely because people are used to throwing their Swordmaster into a sea of enemies and watching them all die-- something people like Ryoma can do, and because screw dodge tanking when you can use people like Azama, Rinkah or Oboro. Instead what Hana does is look at someone on Player Phase and they die with little problems. But if you had someone tankier like say... Silas turn into a swordmaster? He'd be pretty happy too. Having extra avoid would be nice, and the base speed for Silas would help him to actually start doubling things that he wouldn't as a Pally or a Great Knight. And with his durability, he could make some use of Vantage as well-- which is now HP reliant rather than speed like RD. 

The class isn't winning awards for "best class," but it's no longer just a crappy hero that can't use axes and gets an underwhelming critical bonus. Instead it's a 1 range nuke. And it's one of the few classes that gets good skills from start to finish. It's easier to see in Fates that they wanted Swordmaster to be the offensive sword class and hero to be the defensive one with skills like Good Fortune that heal you on your turn, Sol, Strong Riposte (more damage on enemy phase counters) etc. It actually has a niche now. 

Personally, I disagree. Swordmasters, and their skills, just don't measure up to me. Duelist's Blow? Once a turn. Vantage? You're playing with fire, especially since 1-2 range got nerfed. Astra? Is unreliable. Also, outside of squishy units, Swordmasters aren't "point at a unit and destroy it" unless you get lucky with a critical hit (outside of Ryoma, that is). Their avoid bonus is nice, but sadly, this is Fates, where evade's reliability pretty much got gutted.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Augestein]

9 hours ago, Refa said:

Changing her base stats wouldn't make her better?  Really?  Assuming the same personal bases, as a wyvern rider she'd have...

Lv4 23HP 10Str 9Skl 10Spd 6Lck 11Def 2Res

That's better than Jill (at a lower level to boot), and most of her growths are either comparable or better.  Of course she'd be better as a different class lol.  Even as a worse class, say Fighter, she's be better thanks to having better bases and access to a better weapon type (not to mention her growths would work better with these classes).

Lv4 28HP 9Str 8Skl 10Spd 6Lck 7Def 1Res

Okay, fair enough. But her base level is 6. I did the calculations instead of guessing, and yeah, that defense boost she would hypothetically get would make her a slightly more fragile Jill but she'd have about 4 more speed at 20. And I admittedly did underrate how much those changes to bases would help. Yeah, PoR Swordmasters are kinda trash now that I think about it. Worse in the Japanese version because they don't even get the critical bonus. That's... Horrible.

 

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Personally, I disagree. Swordmasters, and their skills, just don't measure up to me. Duelist's Blow? Once a turn. Vantage? You're playing with fire, especially since 1-2 range got nerfed. Astra? Is unreliable. Also, outside of squishy units, Swordmasters aren't "point at a unit and destroy it" unless you get lucky with a critical hit (outside of Ryoma, that is). Their avoid bonus is nice, but sadly, this is Fates, where evade's reliability pretty much got gutted.

Duelist blow is a good skill. +30 avoid on an attack is really good. Sure it's once / twice (if you are danced for) per turn, but it's basically a 1 range archer with the evasion being pushed to reliable levels. Vantage is still a decent skill if you're not placing your unit in 1-2 range units but rather, just 1 range. It happens enough in Fates to be considered. Astra isn't that bad when you place it with a unit that frequently doubles and can be paired up to have more defensive power with dual guards and the like. Hana's offense is actually pretty solid. If it weren't for Raijinto, they'd be about the same. The biggest problem with Hana is that miserable base 20% hp growth. They should have made it about 35 or 40. 

[Refa]

59 minutes ago, Augestein said:

Yeah, PoR Swordmasters are kinda trash now that I think about it. Worse in the Japanese version because they don't even get the critical bonus. That's... Horrible.

Duelist blow is a good skill. +30 avoid on an attack is really good. Sure it's once / twice (if you are danced for) per turn, but it's basically a 1 range archer with the evasion being pushed to reliable levels. Vantage is still a decent skill if you're not placing your unit in 1-2 range units but rather, just 1 range. It happens enough in Fates to be considered. Astra isn't that bad when you place it with a unit that frequently doubles and can be paired up to have more defensive power with dual guards and the like. Hana's offense is actually pretty solid. If it weren't for Raijinto, they'd be about the same. The biggest problem with Hana is that miserable base 20% hp growth. They should have made it about 35 or 40. 

I think they were supposed to be a replacement for the mercenary class?  Although that doesn't explain the promotion and the poor defensive stats, so uh.../shrug.

Yeah, Swordmaster has really good skills in Fates.  Vantage can be planned for as well, as long as your hit rates are reliable (and it improves durability on someone like Hinata who can take a few hits even if he doesn't crit/dodge).  If Hana had better defensive stats or was just better at dodgetanking, she'd be really good TBH.

[Jedi]

1 hour ago, Augestein said:

Okay, fair enough. But her base level is 6. I did the calculations instead of guessing, and yeah, that defense boost she would hypothetically get would make her a slightly more fragile Jill but she'd have about 4 more speed at 20. And I admittedly did underrate how much those changes to bases would help. Yeah, PoR Swordmasters are kinda trash now that I think about it. Worse in the Japanese version because they don't even get the critical bonus. That's... Horrible.

Well in the Japanese version you can just abuse the 255% crit forging glitch, which is fun with people like Mia, and of course the obvious Marcia & Jill.

[De Geso]

8 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Granted, they were lackluster in those games you mentioned due to various reasons, but I fail to see them as significantly better in Fates, where they're surprisingly hittable and one or two unlucky rolls means the next thing you're gonna be doing is reaching for L R Start (other than Hinata, who's the exception and not the rule).

Because some of the stuff you post, I can't help but disagree with.

First: If you're trying to tank in any way on Fates enemy phase you're doing it wrong as the game is designed for player phase. I could write a whole essay on that, but I'm sure you'd disagree with me for some other petty reason. 

As @Augestein seemed to allude to (forgive me if I'm mistaken), Swordmasters are player phase units designed to kill a thing and stay out of the way for Enemy Phase, and they do that job well - whether that job itself is good or not depends on what your unit composition is for the end game. Hence, they're "fine." Vantage is useful for if you screw up and put one in harm's way on enemy phase but I wouldn't call it super reliable on SM's and Myrms themselves.

Besides that, though, they are significantly better in Fates because 

-swordlock is no longer a major detriment to a unit's viability

-movement is no longer a major detriment to a unit's viability (thanks to pairup)

[Emeraldfox]

9 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

First: If you're trying to tank in any way on Fates enemy phase you're doing it wrong as the game is designed for player phase. I could write a whole essay on that, but I'm sure you'd disagree with me for some other petty reason.

I disagree with you on the grounds that you're telling someone else the way they're playing their game is wrong. Is that petty.

 

I never understood how being locked to a weapon was bad in past games when there are weapons within the type that deals with the weakness. Did people simply not give them the weapon to combat their weakness? It sure sounds like it.

[De Geso]

56 minutes ago, Emeraldfox said:

I disagree with you on the grounds that you're telling someone else the way they're playing their game is wrong. Is that petty.

 

I never understood how being locked to a weapon was bad in past games when there are weapons within the type that deals with the weakness. Did people simply not give them the weapon to combat their weakness? It sure sounds like it.

First point: If you want to play it a certain way, fine - I apologize if I came off as saying you're "playing the game wrong," what I meant by that was that there is an optimal way to play Fates and enemy phase tanking isn't that way, since Fates (CQ in particular but the other routes also) is about big Player Phase pushes due to the strength of enemy units and the way Ninja/Maids/Status Staves work. So "not being able to dodge tank" is not a point against SM viability in Fates, since tanking isn't that good anyway as a strategy due to the game design. 

Second, Swords' 2-range options are not as viable (outside of Fates which finally balanced this) as Lances and Axes are. They have horrible availability, while Hand Axes and Javelins are available early and are cheap. 

Being weapon locked also hurts your control over the weapon triangle until reaver weapons and similar come around, but those are also less freely available than standard weapons. Why use a Swordmaster who needs a Lancereaver when you can stick an Iron Axe on a Hero and get roughly the same effect (not to mention Heroes are a better class anyway in most Fire Emblem games). 

Being able to "deal with a weakness" badly is worse than not having that weakness at all. 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Emeraldfox said:

I disagree with you on the grounds that you're telling someone else the way they're playing their game is wrong. Is that petty.

 

I never understood how being locked to a weapon was bad in past games when there are weapons within the type that deals with the weakness. Did people simply not give them the weapon to combat their weakness? It sure sounds like it.

That isn't the problem so much as it is other flaws inherent to the weapon type itself. Swords lacked good ranged options in most FE games (most ranged swords were magic weapons, and swordmasters tended to have low magic scores, not to mention being rare as opposed to hand axes and javelins, which were buyable). There's also the part where in the games that have them, lancereavers are fairly expensive and have little in the way of uses.