How to fix Swordmasters?

[Magical Glace]

5 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Swords' 2-range options are not as viable (outside of Fates which finally balanced this)

Just gonna take a sec to point out FE10 addressed the 2 range problem as well, with Wind Edges, etc., Awakening took it away for some reason.

 

[BravuraLevi]

22 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Just gonna take a sec to point out FE10 addressed the 2 range problem as well, with Wind Edges, etc., Awakening took it away for some reason.

 

This. It was unfortunate that awakening tried to bring back weapons from pretty much ever game, but only brought Amatsu, Ragnell and the Levin sword for ranged swords...

I think the swordsmaster class, in addition to being sword locked, tends to have a lot units who are hit-or-miss, or even plain out bad, like Guy, gets strength screwed super easily, Hinata with his wack growths, or Karla who's... Karla. On the other hand, however, I'm legitimately struggling to think of a bad mercenary. The closest I can think of is Oujay, but he's more outclassed than he is bad. If the next game doesn't have reclassing, then they really need to fix up the Swordmaster's growths.

 

[Shadow Mir]

On April 27, 2017 at 7:09 AM, Augestein said:

Duelist blow is a good skill. +30 avoid on an attack is really good. Sure it's once / twice (if you are danced for) per turn, but it's basically a 1 range archer with the evasion being pushed to reliable levels. Vantage is still a decent skill if you're not placing your unit in 1-2 range units but rather, just 1 range. It happens enough in Fates to be considered. Astra isn't that bad when you place it with a unit that frequently doubles and can be paired up to have more defensive power with dual guards and the like. Hana's offense is actually pretty solid. If it weren't for Raijinto, they'd be about the same. The biggest problem with Hana is that miserable base 20% hp growth. They should have made it about 35 or 40. 

Except archers actually make their hits hurt this time around, and don't have to worry about eating counters, which is a big boon considering that most Hoshidan units take hits like chumps. As for Vantage, I don't see it doing much good unless you get lucky or are attacked by an enemy weak enough that you can kill them before they attack.  Astra filling up the shield gauge sounds amazing at first glance, but (1) it's unreliable, (2) that's assuming that the enemy doesn't die before all 5 hits go off, and (3) pair up getting nerfed means there's less incentive to pair up (and it's much more situational as well). That being said, I'll grant that Hana has good offence, but she dies in two hits to most anything physical for pretty much the whole game (particularly strong enemies can do her in in one hit!).

On April 27, 2017 at 9:05 AM, YouSquiddinMe said:

First: If you're trying to tank in any way on Fates enemy phase you're doing it wrong as the game is designed for player phase. I could write a whole essay on that, but I'm sure you'd disagree with me for some other petty reason. 

As @Augestein seemed to allude to (forgive me if I'm mistaken), Swordmasters are player phase units designed to kill a thing and stay out of the way for Enemy Phase, and they do that job well - whether that job itself is good or not depends on what your unit composition is for the end game. Hence, they're "fine." Vantage is useful for if you screw up and put one in harm's way on enemy phase but I wouldn't call it super reliable on SM's and Myrms themselves.

Besides that, though, they are significantly better in Fates because 

-swordlock is no longer a major detriment to a unit's viability

-movement is no longer a major detriment to a unit's viability (thanks to pairup)

Well, unless you're running a team full of mounted units, eventually you're gonna have to have the enemies come to you (especially in chapters like 23 Birthright, where nearly all the enemies are mounted units). Also, if pair up means movement isn't as much of a problem as before, why are generals looked down on in Awakening (besides pair up being busted in that game)? 

BTW, I might let it slip sooner or later, so I might as well come out and say it now: I'm very cynical when it comes to Swordmasters, especially since they're pretty much THE most overhyped class in all Fire Emblem.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Augestein]

On 4/30/2017 at 6:51 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except archers actually make their hits hurt this time around, and don't have to worry about eating counters, which is a big boon considering that most Hoshidan units take hits like chumps. As for Vantage, I don't see it doing much good unless you get lucky or are attacked by an enemy weak enough that you can kill them before they attack.  Astra filling up the shield gauge sounds amazing at first glance, but (1) it's unreliable, (2) that's assuming that the enemy doesn't die before all 5 hits go off, and (3) pair up getting nerfed means there's less incentive to pair up (and it's much more situational as well). That being said, I'll grant that Hana has good offence, but she dies in two hits to most anything physical for pretty much the whole game (particularly strong enemies can do her in in one hit!).

On 4/27/2017 at 10:05 AM, YouSquiddinMe said:

And Swordmaster's make sure they pretty much don't get hit on player phase. Especially with access to dual Katanas, you can attack most of the weapon triangle with little fear of getting hit. It's the enemy phase you have to worry about. I agree archers are overall more useful at their niche, but I can't deny what these guys can do. 

[The DanMan]

If they aren't broken, don't fix them. The only real complaint extends to swords in general, and that's the lack of a reliable ranged weapon within the type (though the Fates' nerf that will likely carry over makes this much less of an issue).

[henrymidfields]

I actually do wonder why they decided to get rid of the 2RNG in Fates. It doesn't really serve a purpose other than making dodging unreliable, and dodging is supposed to be the defensive answer for Swordmasters. Unless if one was playing Binding Blade where axes and lances had actually bad base accuracy and Swordslayers non-existent, there are already ways to get around a Swordmaster's avoid tank anyway (via bonuses from weapon triangle advantage, Swordslayers, or in Fates, Skillsets that raises your unit's accuracy), so that was a case of don't fix what wasn't broken. Or would that make Birthright too easy?

Edited May 3, 2017 by henrymidfields

[Shadow Mir]

On 5/2/2017 at 5:38 PM, Augestein said:

And Swordmaster's make sure they pretty much don't get hit on player phase. Especially with access to dual Katanas, you can attack most of the weapon triangle with little fear of getting hit. It's the enemy phase you have to worry about. I agree archers are overall more useful at their niche, but I can't deny what these guys can do. 

I dunno about you, but not getting hit is something I wouldn't take for granted unless you were using a pathetically weak weapon (Sunrise Katana) or a weapon that makes you fight at reduced capacity every other time, to say nothing of it being S rank and only having like 3 chapters' worth of availability (Hagakure Blade); while I'm at it, that's another thing - some weapons in Fates drop your avoid. Also, I don't really see dual katanas helping swordmasters that much since it still won't help much against the likes of Generals and Great Knights, who tend to have two weapons. Oh, and I've seen what they can do, too, except I was unimpressed, else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SavageVolug]

If it was up to me I would have swordmasters be more like the trueblades of Radiant Dawn in terms of design anyway. Next I would fix how vantage and astra work to how they functioned in games prior to Awakening. As of right now vantage is a bad skill because you DO NOT WANT your myrmidons getting below 50% health in the first place and if they're higher leveled their avoid is so high it's rare for them to get hit (at least if the myrmidon is designed properly). Also I would give them lancebreaker as this skill would be more useful on a myrmidon, it's pointless on units who wield axes primarily. So how did vantage and astra work originally? Glad you asked. Now it depend on the game but there was a game where it was activated based off of the unit's speed stat (Radiant Dawn) some of the others it was guaranteed all the time or based off of skill. Given the nature of this skill I believe it being activated by a speed stat makes a lot of sense. I also want myrmidons to have adept which we haven't seen for a while but in most if not all games this skill also was based off of the speed stat and again given the nature of this skill I think it makes perfect sense. Lastly fix astra, it used to strike five times at normal damage go back to this but criticals cannot be activated nor can any other offense skills be activated either, if we go back to this version of astra lock this skill to the 3rd tier class of myrmidons assuming we go more with 3rd tiers of course. Also I'm assuming in this situation that 2nd seals do not exist as they are retarded. Basically only top tier myrmidons have this skill and no unit other than a top tier myrmidon has it.

Now I would say a great way to fix their range problem and they are literally the ONLY unit with this problem is give the myrmidons some ranged swords like Ragnell. Ok, ok Ragnell is overpowered and only belongs to Ike alright. I propose instead bring back the wind edge, storm edge and tempest blade swords which have magical like beam attacks but a unit does not have to have good magic to use them, another idea is to introduce a new weapon perhaps called the Short Sword which allows for direct and indirect combat but maybe has the same problem as hand axes (less reliable hit rate). If you read this Harvey I'd be interested in what you think.

[goodperson707]

^ 1, Vantage originally worked as it does now. 2 Why presume skills just being connected to class or working anything like the last two class skill systems anyway (or focusing on these skills specifically for that matter) especially if you go with no reclassing (Assuming that is what you mean by no 2nd seals) 3 Tellius is what gave us 1/2 Astra, pretty much all mastery skills were given damage boosts in RD. 

 

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

If it was up to me I would have swordmasters be more like the trueblades of Radiant Dawn in terms of design anyway. Next I would fix how vantage and astra work to how they functioned in games prior to Awakening. As of right now vantage is a bad skill because you DO NOT WANT your myrmidons getting below 50% health in the first place and if they're higher leveled their avoid is so high it's rare for them to get hit (at least if the myrmidon is designed properly). Also I would give them lancebreaker as this skill would be more useful on a myrmidon, it's pointless on units who wield axes primarily. So how did vantage and astra work originally? Glad you asked. Now it depend on the game but there was a game where it was activated based off of the unit's speed stat (Radiant Dawn) some of the others it was guaranteed all the time or based off of skill. Given the nature of this skill I believe it being activated by a speed stat makes a lot of sense. I also want myrmidons to have adept which we haven't seen for a while but in most if not all games this skill also was based off of the speed stat and again given the nature of this skill I think it makes perfect sense. Lastly fix astra, it used to strike five times at normal damage go back to this but criticals cannot be activated nor can any other offense skills be activated either, if we go back to this version of astra lock this skill to the 3rd tier class of myrmidons assuming we go more with 3rd tiers of course. Also I'm assuming in this situation that 2nd seals do not exist as they are retarded. Basically only top tier myrmidons have this skill and no unit other than a top tier myrmidon has it.

Now I would say a great way to fix their range problem and they are literally the ONLY unit with this problem is give the myrmidons some ranged swords like Ragnell. Ok, ok Ragnell is overpowered and only belongs to Ike alright. I propose instead bring back the wind edge, storm edge and tempest blade swords which have magical like beam attacks but a unit does not have to have good magic to use them, another idea is to introduce a new weapon perhaps called the Short Sword which allows for direct and indirect combat but maybe has the same problem as hand axes (less reliable hit rate). If you read this Harvey I'd be interested in what you think.

Aside from stuff already mentioned, I seriously doubt third tiers will be making a return any time soon (no, I'm not counting Shadows of Valentia). Also, given that most breakers are learned by classes that use weapon types that trump the weapon type whose breaker skill they get, Lancebreaker being learned by Swordmasters would make negative sense (not to mention that the faire skills are all learned by weapon locked classes,for the most part).

Edited May 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[L9999]

On 28/4/2017 at 0:43 PM, BravuraLevi said:

This. It was unfortunate that awakening tried to bring back weapons from pretty much ever game, but only brought Amatsu, Ragnell and the Levin sword for ranged swords...

I think the swordsmaster class, in addition to being sword locked, tends to have a lot units who are hit-or-miss, or even plain out bad, like Guy, gets strength screwed super easily, Hinata with his wack growths, or Karla who's... Karla. On the other hand, however, I'm legitimately struggling to think of a bad mercenary. The closest I can think of is Oujay, but he's more outclassed than he is bad. If the next game doesn't have reclassing, then they really need to fix up the Swordmaster's growths.

I don't know what is so hard about bringing back FE1 Thunder Swords or Light Brands. On the subject of mercenaries, I can think of some "bad" ones: FE1 Mercenaries actually suck, they don't have a niche. You have 3 solid cavaliers who outclass them in combat entirely, you have Marth who trivializes the game with Rapier, and you have Barst who kills bosses in early game and a couple dudes with Hammer. Ogma and Navarre work as filler but if they die you won't really miss them. The other ones are for shopping, giving their items to Sheeda and then serve as mage fodder in the desert chapter to get everyone else to safety. FE2: Celica route has a lot of them and none of them I would call good. Oujay isn't going anywhere with his bases, specially when Deke, who is better than him, is already outclassed by Rutger

 

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, L9999 said:

I don't know what is so hard about bringing back FE1 Thunder Swords or Light Brands. On the subject of mercenaries, I can think of some "bad" ones: FE1 Mercenaries actually suck, they don't have a niche. You have 3 solid cavaliers who outclass them in combat entirely, you have Marth who trivializes the game with Rapier, and you have Barst who kills bosses in early game and a couple dudes with Hammer. Ogma and Navarre work as filler but if they die you won't really miss them. The other ones are for shopping, giving their items to Sheeda and then serve as mage fodder in the desert chapter to get everyone else to safety. FE2: Celica route has a lot of them and none of them I would call good. Oujay isn't going anywhere with his bases, specially when Deke, who is better than him, is already outclassed by Rutger

 

I dunno about the former, but I feel the latter would be just another magic based sword (and thus wouldn't help much).

[L9999]

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I dunno about the former, but I feel the latter would be just another magic based sword (and thus wouldn't help much).

Judgral Light Brand would be great, as it doesn't goes off from Magic stat, it goes from a division from attack plus the weapon's might. I think the 25 uses is OK as long as they are continually buyable like FE1 Thunder Swords, and to not be biased towards the player the enemies could have light brands.

Edited May 5, 2017 by L9999

[Shadow Mir]

15 minutes ago, L9999 said:

Judgral Light Brand would be great, as it doesn't goes off from Magic stat, it goes from a division from attack plus the weapon's might. I think the 25 uses is OK as long as they are continually buyable like FE1 Thunder Swords, and to not be biased towards the player the enemies could have light brands.

I don't think the Light Sword worked like that in Jugdral, which had magic and strength coexisting. Also, I fail to see a ranged weapon that uses the user's attack divided plus the weapon's might as anything other than laughably underpowered - why use that when javelins and hand axes beat the tar out of it???

Edited May 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[L9999]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't think the Light Sword worked like that in Jugdral, which had magic and strength coexisting. Also, I fail to see a ranged weapon that uses the user's attack divided plus the weapon's might as anything other than laughably underpowered.

It does wonders in FE5. Think it this way: what is better, Jugdral Light Brand or no 1-2 range?

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, L9999 said:

It does wonders in FE5. Think it this way: what is better, Jugdral Light Brand or no 1-2 range?

Far as I'm concerned, I'd consider having bad 1-2 range tantamount to not having it at all - if you had a weapon akin to the Runesword or Light Brand as they were in FE7 and FE8, anything even remotely defensive would likely only get tickled by the ranged attack...

Edited May 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SavageVolug]

32 minutes ago, L9999 said:

It does wonders in FE5. Think it this way: what is better, Jugdral Light Brand or no 1-2 range?

Not only that but in general having a ranged weapon equipped discourages ranged attackers from targeting said unit. Usually they will target someone who cannot counter. 1 ranged sword option is better than no ranged sword option, although I'm still waiting for the Tempest Blade to return for myrmidons and I want another myrmidon like Stefan or Navarre those guys have awesome personality, although Joshua is pretty cool too. Besides they're still better than every myrmidon in Fates and Awakening.

Edited May 5, 2017 by SavageVolug
I accidentally submitted before I was finished.

[Shadow Mir]

44 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

Not only that but in general having a ranged weapon equipped discourages ranged attackers from targeting said unit. Usually they will target someone who cannot counter. 1 ranged sword option is better than no ranged sword option, although I'm still waiting for the Tempest Blade to return for myrmidons and I want another myrmidon like Stefan or Navarre those guys have awesome personality, although Joshua is pretty cool too. Besides they're still better than every myrmidon in Fates and Awakening.

I don't see it that way - as is, swordmasters aren't known for high offensive strength, and as of recent games, I think they don't solely choose targets based on who can't counter.

[SavageVolug]

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't see it that way - as is, swordmasters aren't known for high offensive strength, and as of recent games, I think they don't solely choose targets based on who can't counter.

You may be right I was merely going off of personal experience and observation I can't say it's a 100% fact that they will only target those who can't counter if given the option but it certainly seemed that way. As far as the strength thing goes you make a fair point but at the same time there are exceptions to that rule namely Edward and Stefen although Hinata seems to fall into this category as well. For a myrmidon Edward had amazing strength most of the time he caps it without stat boosters making him a great candidate for Alondite as he wont' suffer speed penalties from using it unlike all the other myrmidons except for Stefan.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, SavageVolug said:

You may be right I was merely going off of personal experience and observation I can't say it's a 100% fact that they will only target those who can't counter if given the option but it certainly seemed that way. As far as the strength thing goes you make a fair point but at the same time there are exceptions to that rule namely Edward and Stefen although Hinata seems to fall into this category as well. For a myrmidon Edward had amazing strength most of the time he caps it without stat boosters making him a great candidate for Alondite as he wont' suffer speed penalties from using it unlike all the other myrmidons except for Stefan.

Here's the problen with this:

1. Edward's a terrible unit. 

2. He's in Radiant Dawn, where BEXP is abusable.

3. None of the other myrms would get weighed down by Alondite by the time it's relevant.

[SavageVolug]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Here's the problen with this:

1. Edward's a terrible unit. 

2. He's in Radiant Dawn, where BEXP is abusable.

3. None of the other myrms would get weighed down by Alondite by the time it's relevant.

Wrong. Edward is one of the best myrmidons in the game if not THE BEST. I do not use bonus EXP, and even if I did it is not abusable as you have a limited amount and are going to run out if you do that. Actually there are only two myrmidons who can wield Alondite unhindered and that's Edward and Stefan. Everyone else I've tried get's hindered by it. I don't know how much you've tried using Edward but if you put a little work into him he will be one of if not your best myrmidon in the game. Again, I've done this without abusing or using Bonus EXP period I like the bonus EXP but using it to level up gives subpar level ups also again you'll run out crazy fast.

[goodperson707]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Here's the problen with this:

1. Edward's a terrible unit. 

2. He's in Radiant Dawn, where BEXP is abusable.

3. None of the other myrms would get weighed down by Alondite by the time it's relevant.

Just adding to #3. As far as I can tell it's actually impossible for any of the Female myrms to use Alondite and be weighed down. (Female physical units gain + 3 str on promotion to 3rd tier, and they have 17 and 18 strength. And Female swordmasters don't get  an SS rank like their male counterparts, Don't know why though.) The males (aka edward) is at least possible though likely requires conscious use of arms scrolls to not be a incredibly unlikely event. Just a random edition, I'm pretty much raising my hands and scratching my head at this point in the thread. 

^Yeah no, mechanical impossibility for the girls and super unlikely for Zihark. (Also Bexp may not be in regards to Edward but in regards to the other Myrms, specifically that a weaker str growth dosen't really matter if Bexp raises that weaker stat since the other ones are capped.)

[Shadow Mir]

33 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

Wrong. Edward is one of the best myrmidons in the game if not THE BEST. I do not use bonus EXP, and even if I did it is not abusable as you have a limited amount and are going to run out if you do that. Actually there are only two myrmidons who can wield Alondite unhindered and that's Edward and Stefan. Everyone else I've tried get's hindered by it. I don't know how much you've tried using Edward but if you put a little work into him he will be one of if not your best myrmidon in the game. Again, I've done this without abusing or using Bonus EXP period I like the bonus EXP but using it to level up gives subpar level ups also again you'll run out crazy fast.

Spoken like someone who only looks at the growths and ignores everything else. While he might be the best unit in the prologue, that says very little when your only other units are ones that can't take hits well. Anyways, Edward's problem is that he's a fragile melee unit, AKA the type of unit that the Dawn Brigade DOESN'T need. I've tried using him, and all he did was make the already hard DB chapters even harder than they needed to be because he's a liability. It doesn't help that Zihark renders him obsolete. Also, your point on Alondite is straight up BS - Mia and Lucia can just promote and bam, they have the neded Strength to use it without losing AS. And Zihark? Needs a grand total of - drumroll please - 1 level up in strength before he isn't weighed down.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SavageVolug]

2 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Spoken like someone who only looks at the growths and ignores everything else. While he might be the best unit in the prologue, that says very little when your only other units are ones that can't take hits well. Anyways, Edward's problem is that he's a fragile melee unit, AKA the type of unit that the Dawn Brigade DOESN'T need. I've tried using him, and all he did was make the already hard DB chapters even harder than they needed to be because he's a liability. Also, your point on Alondite is straight up BS - Mia and Lucia can just promote and bam, they have the neded Strength to use it without losing AS. And Zihark? Needs a grand total of - drumroll please - 1 level up in strength before he isn't weighed down.

Well if you don't look at growths for an idea on how good a unit is I'd like to know what you are supposed to look at. In terms of damage output if Edward is in the same class as Mia and Lucia Edward WILL do MORE damage than them. I don't know what you're playstyle is but I've played the game at least 5 times and every time Edward helps make things easier. Can he tank? No. He's not supposed to, that's Nolan's, Aran's, Jill's and maybe Meg's job depends if she's class changed yet or not. If she hasn't she's a lost cause. Myrmidons are not good tanks but boy can he dodge and he can dish out damage. He ALMOST killed Ike which is practically unheard of. If Edward is promoted by the end of part 1 he is incredible and probably will have better stats than Zihark although everyone else in the Dawn Brigade should be promoted too. I have done comparisons on performance multiple time Edward and Stefan are the top two myrmidons of the game. Zihark may have enough strength with a stat booster, but Edward doesn't NEED a stat booster. His strength will be capped meaning I can just give it to someone else unless I've used them already. If Mia and Lucia have trouble wielding Iron Blade swords there's no way they can wield Alondite. When all your units split up I've near the end of the game I've had Edward and Mia on the same team as they kind of have similar personalities and Edward outperformed Mia even though they were side by side and should have had a similar performance.

[goodperson707]

Okay, now I'm definitely not sure game you were playing. Unless I'm missing something in how weight works (going by the calculation page on the main site) the only Myrm who can possibly be weighed down by any sword but the aforementioned 20 wt sword is your vaunted Edward.