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How to fix Swordmasters?


Harvey
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5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

So what? Doesn't make them all that great, as I see it. Hana in particular doesn't help your case - she's better off in a different class, one where she doesn't need to put herself on the chopping block every time she attacks. Also, I consider her personal very questionable in terms of usefulness, so that's no help either.

The point is, is that Swordmasters have a niche and are much better than beforehand where they weren't very good units. FE6 they were good, and then it's kinda downhill from there. Swordmasters here don't just suck now. 

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What swordmasters need is a class defining trait that makes them a different option.
One could say oh but they have Astra - True but it is heavily dependent on rng, You could pick an Assassin if you really wanted to get the job done and atleast have access to other skills
Boosted Crit- in the older games (Fe6 for example) this was pretty nutso, it got toned back in Fe7 and they were still decent but failed to get the job done sometimes (whereas assassins for instance didn't fail) because of their pitiful str caps
Lets bring back something to make them stand out, how about bring back boost crit, but bring it back in a big way. But also make it so they don't deal as much as a normal crit, (make it 2x instead of 3x) but say they get 40-50 bonus crit. So roughly they are dealing 2x the damage almost consistently so it makes them better in a way but not too crazy.
I feel like swordmasters in essence we're always about the crits, they always have seemed to shine with crits in one way or another. Whether through multi astra crits or just critting all the time. Lets keep that as a class essential so they feel unique and are still threatening one way or another. It makes them decent on enemy phase and player phase, and just keep their dodge as good as it was.

Edited by Tsak
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6 minutes ago, Tsak said:

What swordmasters need is a class defining trait that makes them a different option.
One could say oh but they have Astra - True but it is heavily dependent on rng, You could pick an Assassin if you really wanted to get the job done and atleast have access to other skills
Boosted Crit- in the older games (Fe6 for example) this was pretty nutso, it got toned back in Fe7 and they were still decent but failed to get the job done sometimes (whereas assassins for instance didn't fail) because of their pitiful str caps
Lets bring back something to make them stand out, how about bring back boost crit, but bring it back in a big way. But also make it so they don't deal as much as a normal crit, (make it 2x instead of 3x) but say they get 40-50 bonus crit. So roughly they are dealing 2x the damage almost consistently so it makes them better in a way but not too crazy.
I feel like swordmasters in essence we're always about the crits, they always have seemed to shine with crits in one way or another. Whether through multi astra crits or just critting all the time. Lets keep that as a class essential so they feel unique and are still threatening one way or another. It makes them decent on enemy phase and player phase, and just keep their dodge as good as it was.

A 40-50 crit bonus would be way too much.

Even the 30% bonus in FE6 was ridiculous(Though it was a lot more frightening on Berserkers than SMs).

A 15-20% bonus+Locking the Astra skill to Swordmasters and making Astra hits able to be crits would help a lot.

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6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

A 40-50 crit bonus would be way too much.

A 15-20% bonus+Locking the Astra skill to Swordmasters and making Astra hits able to be crits would help a lot.

yeah maybe it would be a bit much but knocking the multiplier down to x2 from x3 is a pretty big hit i'd say. Dealing double damage is still strong, so if they are still quite faster its basically a brave sword effect if they hit twice.

6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Even the 30% bonus in FE6 was ridiculous(Though it was a lot more frightening on Berserkers than SMs).

Yup, too bad axes were downright terrible though.. Still arena in Fe6 was quite scary because of those buggers

Edited by Tsak
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1 minute ago, Tsak said:

yeah maybe it would be a bit much but knocking the multiplier down to x2 from x3 is a pretty big hit i'd say. Dealing double damage is still strong, so if they are still quite faster its basically a brave sword effect if they hit twice.
 

 

Yup, too bad axes were downright terrible though.. Still arena in Fe6 was quite scary because of those buggers

Axes were bad, but running into normal enemies with ~30% crit rates was still terrifying.

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3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Axes were bad, but running into normal enemies with ~30% crit rates was still terrifying.

True facts
that being said, if Swordmasters are considered in a meh spot what about Berserkers? They're basically the slower bulkier version of a Swordmaster tied to a different class
I'd imagine it depends on how axes are in general in the new fire emblem. Berserkers always seemed better because of tomahawks but maybe that's just me

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27 minutes ago, Tsak said:

True facts
that being said, if Swordmasters are considered in a meh spot what about Berserkers? They're basically the slower bulkier version of a Swordmaster tied to a different class
I'd imagine it depends on how axes are in general in the new fire emblem. Berserkers always seemed better because of tomahawks but maybe that's just me

Berserkers tend to fare quite a bit better in modern interpretations. They typically have the highest strength cap, and wielding axes really only adds to their effectiveness. They tend to make better use of their crit bonuses than SMs.

Edited by Slumber
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14 hours ago, Tsak said:

True facts
that being said, if Swordmasters are considered in a meh spot what about Berserkers? They're basically the slower bulkier version of a Swordmaster tied to a different class
I'd imagine it depends on how axes are in general in the new fire emblem. Berserkers always seemed better because of tomahawks but maybe that's just me

Personally, I'd say Berserkers are better in theory, but in actual practice, the class suffers from most of the units that can access it being hit-or-miss or even outright bad.

14 hours ago, Slumber said:

Berserkers tend to fare quite a bit better in modern interpretations. They typically have the highest strength cap, and wielding axes really only adds to their effectiveness. They tend to make better use of their crit bonuses than SMs.

I dunno - I felt Fates made Berserkers outright unusable (I don't like that they face crit chances from everything under the sun, especially since crits are much more powerful for the enemy than they are for the player; it made them a high risk, low reward class, far as I'm concerned. Of course, that goes out the window when they're on the enemy side).

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Fate's Berserkers felt weird, most of the time their crit chance was much higher than their hit chance. Building one proved difficult to say the least, it always felt like a gamble to engage.

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I have 2 alternatives:

 

a) Make them just like in FE6 where they had a pretty huge crit boost

b) Give them bows upon promotion to make up for that lack of 1-2 range option and keep the crit boost of 15%

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RD had the right idea by having classes having innate passives tbh. Giving Swordmasters a critical boost just serves one purpose, but I'd honestly have them have a "quick riposte" or something that deals damage back when someone "misses" them. Adding more emphasis on that "glass cannon" idea. Simply have it be a stance that they can activate on the player phase or turn off, and you'd have a match made in heaven. 

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I second that +30% crit boost too - I mean, that's what the Luck stat's primarily there for. Also return the RNG to the two-roll system, actually have higher Speed than Heroes do, and have dodge-tanking actually a viable defensive method. (Oh wait...that's FE6.)

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Gosh we like talking about Swordmasters.

I'm going to say we should dump the FE6-13 2RN hitting system for good in favor of something where the displayed and the true chances of hitting are closer to each other. But maybe program it so that SMs actually use the 6-13 two RN system for dodging (which at 25% displayed would equal a 12.75% true), if that wouldn't be too difficult. Restrict other classes' access to the more evasive formula.

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On May 15, 2017 at 6:22 AM, Harvey said:

I wonder if future swordmasters should have the exact same growth rates as Rutger inorder for them to be less niche...

I don't think that'd work, because what made Rutger good was other factors.

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18 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't think that'd work, because what made Rutger good was other factors.

Yeah, Guy(A few tweaks here and there) was more or less a carbon copy of Rutger, and Guy's very middle of the road.

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4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't think that'd work, because what made Rutger good was other factors.

Such as? Because his skill growth is the most reliable if you ask me.

4 hours ago, Slumber said:

Yeah, Guy(A few tweaks here and there) was more or less a carbon copy of Rutger, and Guy's very middle of the road.

If you give him the supports that he can use, Guy can come on par with Rutger.

 

Edited by Harvey
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2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Such as? Because his skill growth is the most reliable if you ask me.

Mostly being in a game where his niche (reliable boss killer and delete button for dangerous enemies in general) is harder to come by than in most, if not all, other FE titles.

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On 5/17/2017 at 0:15 AM, Harvey said:

Such as? Because his skill growth is the most reliable if you ask me.

If you give him the supports that he can use, Guy can come on par with Rutger.

Pretty much what ping said (him getting +30 crit, thus allowing him to be a reliable delete button). 

The problem with that, though, is the units he supports (two mounts, one super slow support, a utility unit, and a mutually exclusive unit that happens to be the worse option).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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If you ask me, I'd say higher terrain bonuses for avoidance (though not at the level of the graves) and lower hit rates for most units. Swords could also stick to having less weight or drawbacks than other weapons. Though to put them on par with Heroes or other sword classes, exclusive weapons couldn't hurt. The Amatersu and the Wo Dao are two great examples. Fir always was a goddess because it was impossible to hit her in a forest and could always have a constant crit thanks to her weapon.

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...the fundamental problem with the swordmaster is that its a squishy offensively-oriented class, AND its usually forced to fight on the front-lines with 1 range weapons. 

 
...this is a very unfortunate combination of things to be...

Frontline units fighting at melee range want to be big, bulky damage sponges. (i.e. knights and fighters)

Squishy offensive units want to be attacking from range while standing behind big, bulky damage sponges (i.e. archers and mages)
  
...the high availability of javelins and hand axes traditionally made this much less of a problem for lance and axe users, who could go ranged as needed if they didn't have the survivability for the frontlines. 

Swordmasters typically did't have this luxury, and they suffered for it. (a large part of what makes Ryoma so good is that sexy 1-2 range on Raijinto--which is so much more useful then the swordmaster's usual boon of +crit, and what allows him to really distinguish himself as an offensive juggernaut) 

Basically...to blance swordmasters...I'd say all FE really has to do is increase the availability of magical swords with 1-2 range attacks, like the light brand and the wind sword. Balance the stats on those weapons; don't give them unusably low hit and might and drawbacks, but don't make them stupid-good.

  And if they do that, swordmasters will be a balanced class. 

Edited by Shoblongoo
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1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

...the fundamental problem with the swordmaster is that its a squishy offensively-oriented class, AND its usually forced to fight on the front-lines with 1 range weapons. 

 
...this is a very unfortunate combination of things to be...

Frontline units fighting at melee range want to be big, bulky damage sponges. (i.e. knights and fighters)

Squishy offensive units want to be attacking from range while standing behind big, bulky damage sponges (i.e. archers and mages)
  
...the high availability of javelins and hand axes traditionally made this much less of a problem for lance and axe users, who could go ranged as needed if they didn't have the survivability for the frontlines. 

Swordmasters typically did't have this luxury, and they suffered for it. (a large part of what makes Ryoma so good is that sexy 1-2 range on Raijinto--which is so much more useful then the swordmaster's usual boon of +crit, and what allows him to really distinguish himself as an offensive juggernaut) 

Basically...to blance swordmasters...I'd say all FE really has to do is increase the availability of magical swords with 1-2 range attacks, like the light brand and the wind sword. Balance the stats on those weapons; don't give them unusably low hit and might and drawbacks, but don't make them stupid-good.

  And if they do that, swordmasters will be a balanced class. 

I highly doubt your "fix" would be much of one considering that they're magic weapons, and Swordmasters aren't exactly known for having high magic scores. . .

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Swordmasters are at their best when they aren't squishy; that is, when they have a lot of avoid. That or their speed needs to be supremely relevant (e.g. they double and few other units do). GBA games managed to create solid to great swordmasters by having their speed be relevant early and their evade be outstanding late, so units like Rutger and Guy always had a decent niche.

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