How is Ike the strongest ever, again?

[Junkhead]

I actually forgot where this whole thing came about. Is it due to popularity? Because I can see how the writers made it seem that way in terms of lore in Awakening and Heroes, especially considering they're the iconic stars in Smash. I don't see any story feats standing out all that much in regards to Ike, in comparison to other Lords in the series. inb4 "oh he beat a goddess"- With help, by the way. Like every other Lord and their respective endgame bosses, pretty much?

[Slumber]

Ike is the closest in franchise history to ever actually beating God. I'm not sure how "pretty much every other Lord" beat a God/Goddess, since FE1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 13, and 14 all involve beating dragons, or somebody channeling a dragon's power. Which are powerful, but not literal Gods who can just stop all life on a whim like Ashera could. The only game that broke away from beating dragons other than FE9/10 is FE8, where you basically fight Satan, who doesn't really have any crazy feats.

He's popular, but the strength of the villains in RD outdo pretty much everything else in the franchise, so Ike managing to one-up THEM makes him pretty damn OP in the grand scheme of the series. Deghinsea would be the closest analogue to most FE final villains(Even then, he's stronger than Medeus, Duma, Veld, Idunn and the Flame Dragon. It's really just Loptyr, Grima and Anankos who are even comparable to him.), and he's not even the main villain's right-hand.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Acacia Sgt]

He's certainly strong. Not sure if strongest, but one of the strongest, definitely.

Also, yeah, I wouldn't really count on beating Ashera as being that meaningful considering he needed the power of Ashera's counterpart, who was said to be her equal, just the opposite of what they represent. If he didn't needed Yune to beat Ashera, then yes, that would've been quite impressive, and certainly would've launch him to the No. 1 spot. But as it stands, it wasn't.

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

He's certainly strong. Not sure if strongest, but one of the strongest, definitely.

Also, yeah, I wouldn't really count on beating Ashera as being that meaningful considering he needed the power of Ashera's counterpart, who was said to be her equal, just the opposite of what they represent. If he didn't needed Yune to beat Ashera, then yes, that would've been quite impressive, and certainly would've launch him to the No. 1 spot. But as it stands, it wasn't.

This applies to nearly everyone, though.

To beat Medeus, Loptyr and Grima(Which accounts for 4 games in the franchise), the heroes needed Naga's power. To beat Idunn, Roy needed a sword specifically designed to kill/seal dragons. Eliwood and co. needed dragon-slaying weapons to beat beat the flame dragon. Ephraim and Eirika needed demon slaying weapons. I can't even remember if Anankos and Duma needed anything specific. The only one who didn't need any help with the final villain is Leif, who still needed the Blaggi Sword to counter the secondary antagonist.

[Junkhead]

On 25/4/2017 at 10:01 PM, Slumber said:

Ike is the closest in franchise history to ever actually beating God. I'm not sure how "pretty much every other Lord" beat a God/Goddess, since FE1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 13, and 14 all involve beating dragons, or somebody channeling a dragon's power. Which are powerful, but not literal Gods who can just stop all life on a whim like Ashera could. The only game that broke away from beating dragons other than FE9/10 is FE8, where you basically fight Satan, who doesn't really have any crazy feats.

He's popular, but the strength of the villains in RD outdo pretty much everything else in the franchise, so Ike managing to one-up THEM makes him pretty damn OP in the grand scheme of the series. Deghinsea would be the closest analogue to most FE final villains(Even then, he's stronger than Medeus, Duma, Veld, Idunn and the Flame Dragon. It's really just Loptyr, Grima and Anankos who are even comparable to him.), and he's not even the main villain's right-hand.

You seem to be forgetting the fact that he didn't solo the Tower, and let alone Ashera herself. It she was truly as almighty as you imply she is, then she would've wiped out Ike with the flick of a rest. He got a goddess boost himself, and he definitely wasn't on his own on that. If we are going by canon (which is the whole point of my question), he only really dealt the finishing blow. If anything, Ashera's overrated and the whole god-status is taken too literally. Like you said, Dheginsea might've been an even bigger threat (and the game sort of states this; somebody look into this if you want). 

If anything, I find Chrom pretty overlooked. People automatically assume BK is a bigger threat than Walhart, and it wouldn't be farfetched to say they're in the same ball park.

Quote

 

This applies to nearly everyone, though.

To beat Medeus, Loptyr and Grima(Which accounts for 4 games in the franchise), the heroes needed Naga's power. To beat Idunn, Roy needed a sword specifically designed to kill/seal dragons. Eliwood and co. needed dragon-slaying weapons to beat beat the flame dragon. Ephraim and Eirika needed demon slaying weapons. I can't even remember if Anankos and Duma needed anything specific. The only one who didn't need any help with the final villain is Leif, who still needed the Blaggi Sword to counter the secondary antagonist.

 

Thing is, it wasn't just a weapon boost. Yes, everyone else on his team needed to get their weapons blessed, but, in canon, it's stated that the only two to get a power boost (like, an actual boost in power to themselves and not just weapons) are Ike and Sothe. Even the final blow required an extra boost from Yune.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Soul~!

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

This applies to nearly everyone, though.

To beat Medeus, Loptyr and Grima(Which accounts for 4 games in the franchise), the heroes needed Naga's power. To beat Idunn, Roy needed a sword specifically designed to kill/seal dragons. Eliwood and co. needed dragon-slaying weapons to beat beat the flame dragon. Ephraim and Eirika needed demon slaying weapons. I can't even remember if Anankos and Duma needed anything specific. The only one who didn't need any help with the final villain is Leif, who still needed the Blaggi Sword to counter the secondary antagonist.

Exactly. The status of the final bosses is not a clear measure of the strength of the protagonists, since they all couldn't beat them all with just their own power.

[Slumber]

16 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

You seem to be forgetting the fact that he didn't solo the Tower, and let alone Ashera herself. It she was truly as almighty as you imply she is, then she would've wiped out Ike with the flick of a rest. He got a goddess boost himself, and he definitely wasn't on his own on that. If we are going by canon (which is the whole point of my question), he only really dealt the finishing blow. If anything, Ashera's overrated and the whole god-status is taken too literally. Like you said, Dheginsea might've been an even bigger threat (and the game sort of states this; somebody look into this if you want). 

If anything, I find Chrom pretty overlooked. People automatically assume BK is a bigger threat than Walhart, and it wouldn't be farfetched to say they're in the same ball park.

You can't just take away feats attributed to the main character because they don't have to beat them in your specific gameplay. Ike HAS to be the one to finish Ashera, and he's treated as the one who beats her. Just like Chrom is attributed with beating Walhart and Gangrel, even though he doesn't even ever have to fight either. Roy beats Idunn. Julia and Seliph take out Julius/Loptyr. Robin beats Grima(Though he does at least have to do this in the context of the gameplay, too). Marth beats Medeus. The list goes on.

Plus, if you find Walhart comparable to the Black Knight, in both gameplay and story, Ike completely solos the Black Knight in their last fight with absolutely no help from anybody. Ike then immediately goes on to fight Deghinsea, THEN Sephiran, and THEN Ashera. These are considered escalating threats, since Deghinsea is capable of wiping out countries by himself, Lehran is one of the ancient heroes(And the one actually tasked with sealing the Gods away), and Ashera is, well, a God.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Interdimensional Observer]

Well if we consider the lords in terms of intelligence/independence from others for strategy, all the overly perfect people: notNM!Marth, (possibly Sigurd- Oifaye giving advice didn't appear very much in the script) Seliph, Roy, Ephraim and Corrin, all come out on top. And Ike is towards the bottom with Eliwood and Hector.

That said, I do have my own unique rankings for the lords that sorts them out each according to their abilities. I call it the "Pan-FE Ideal Heroic Army":

Spoiler

Supreme Commander of Allied Forces: Sigurd

Field Commanders: Hector, Chrom, Alm, Celica (guess I'll toss her here for now- haven't played Echoes yet)

Cavalry Commander: Ephraim

Special Forces Commander: Ike

Chief Strategists: Seliph, Roy

Head of Reconnaissance: Lyn

Chief Diplomat: Eliwood

Administrator on the Domestic Front or Occupied Territories: Marth

If She Hears the Goddess's Voice then a Chief Strategist, Otherwise a Lesser Officer of Some Sort: Micaiah

All Purpose Lackey Trying to Do Something Right: Leif

Goodwill Ambassadors/Troop Morale Boosters (to not offend their feelings): Corrin, Eirika

 

[Junkhead]

...when did I ever bring gameplay into this? That's the whole point of the thread. It isn't. Ike didn't beat any of those single-handedly bar Black Knight. 

Acacia is right. These aren't exactly proper feats. I still don't feeel Ike did anything far too exclusive, other than single-handedly beating one of the strongest ("human") characters. 

[Slumber]

17 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

...when did I ever bring gameplay into this? That's the whole point of the thread. It isn't. Ike didn't beat any of those single-handedly bar Black Knight. 

Acacia is right. These aren't exactly proper feats. I still don't feeel Ike did anything far too exclusive, other than single-handedly beating one of the strongest ("human") characters. 

You said "Ike didn't solo the tower", which is true from a gameplay perspective, but as far as the story is concerned, Kurth, Micaiah, Sothe, Ike and whichever Laguz royal you decide to take are basically only ones who go to the tower. Anything else is gameplay. You can kill Fomortiis with Amelia for all you want, but as far as the story is concerned, it's just Eirika and Ephraim who deal with Lyon and Fomortiis.

If you didn't mean that from a gameplay perspective, then sorry, I was just inferring.

Five people taking out that entire tower is an incredible feat, and most of it is attributed to Ike from a story perspective.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Junkhead]

Even with story side, 5 people did not take the Tower out by themselves. They're strong, but nowhere near that level. 

[Slumber]

3 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Even with story side, 5 people did not take the Tower out by themselves. They're strong, but nowhere near that level. 

If you're separating story and gameplay, again, Micaiah, Sothe, Kurthnaga, Ike and your royal of choice are the only people who go in.

Oh, and Sanaki and Ena, so it's 7. Wait, the Royal reinforcements aren't mandatory, so 6.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Junkhead]

Pretty sure Caineghis and Giffca are canon.

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Pretty sure Caineghis and Giffca are canon.

Oh right.

So that's 8 people. Again, most of what happens in the tower is attributed to Ike.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Acacia Sgt]

For the record, if we're trying to canonize the unit deployment limit, they do at least say in script "best 11" when Yune lists who should come in.

Also... where is it stated that there's attributions to the events in the tower? I'm going over the script, both regular and extended, and I don't see much of that. The only thing certain is Ike dueling the BK, and Ike dealing the final blow to Ashera.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[Slumber]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

For the record, if we're trying to canonize the unit deployment limit, they do at least say in script "best 11" when Yune lists who should come in.

Also... where is it stated that there's attributions to the events in the tower? I'm going over the script, both regular and extended, and I don't see much of that.

There's no attribution of stuff like taking out the senators and who takes out Deghinsea, but beating the Black Knight and Ashera are things only Ike can do. Dealing with Sephiran is also treated as a joint deal between Ike and Micaiah, if I recall.

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Slumber said:

There's no attribution of stuff like taking out the senators and who takes out Deghinsea, but beating the Black Knight and Ashera are things only Ike can do. Dealing with Sephiran is also treated as a joint deal between Ike and Micaiah, if I recall.

BK is a given. But there's actually nothing stating Yune couldn't boost anybody else. Ike being the one to deal the final blow is actually part of the gameplay, that the story aknowledges, but nothing is ever stated that he was the only one. It's canon that he did, but nothing suggests he was the only one that could.

[Slumber]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

BK is a given. But there's actually nothing stating Yune couldn't boost anybody else. Ike being the one to deal the final blow is actually part of the gameplay, that the story aknowledges, but nothing is ever stated that he was the only one. It's canon that he did, but nothing suggests he was the only one that could.

Yune boosted him because he had the best shot at it.

also because Sothe and Micaiah wouldn't do shit from a gameplay perspective, but still

There'd be no reason to boost Ike if, in the context of the story, he wasn't the best suited for it. Above EVERYONE ELSE who wasn't turned to stone, Yune chose Ike as the sole person to beat Ashera.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Yune boosted him because he had the best shot at it.

also because Sothe and Micaiah wouldn't do shit from a gameplay perspective, but still

There'd be no reason to boost Ike if, in the context of the story, he wasn't the best suited for it. Above EVERYONE ELSE who wasn't turned to stone, Yune chose Ike as the sole person to beat Ashera.

And that's the thing. We're not told if there really is a reason Ike had the best shot. Yune was already possessing Micaiah, why not use her? Why not someone using Alondite? Heck, Ike could've even ditched Ragnell and used Alondite, since likewise there's nothing stating Ragnell had to be the weapon to do the deed, either.

Yune states she'll give all the power she has. In this case, Ike is only what tips the scales between the goddesses powers, since it's a case of "Infinity vs Infinity+1". Anyone could be that +1.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[dragonlordsd]

I don't know. It actually doesn't make a ton of sense, since Ike wasn't alone when he beat Ashera.

If anything, I'd expect robin to be the strongest, since technically he/she is grima, but that's more of a technicality.

really, all the lords are pretty equal in strength. I mean, demon!Lyon was a heck of a lot more terrifying than ashera was.

[Salamud]

Ike is one of the few the Lords who is treated as a divine fighter by himself. What with how he defeated Ashnard and Zelgius, spars with some Laguz Kings, and can apparently make the Daein army lose just by his presence. 

At least, he's a cut above any Lord who doesn't have dragon blood.

Also, RD has the strongest set of antagonists in any FE short of Fates.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Salamud

[Slumber]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

And that's the thing. We're not told if there really is a reason Ike had the best shot. Yune was already possessing Micaiah, why not use her? Why not someone using Alondite? Heck, Ike could've even ditched Ragnell and used Alondite, since likewise there's nothing stating Ragnell had to be the weapon to do the deed, either.

We get to work with what we have. Even if there's no reason Yune decided Ike was the best bet at taking out Ashera, we're still given that Ike was most suited for the job.

[Junkhead]

I'm going to go ahead and say "plot", because, honestly. I mean, who else was going to. Sothe??????

[dragonlordsd]

Just now, Salamud said:

Ike is one of the few the Lords who is treated as a divine fighter by himself. What with how he defeated Ashnard and Zelgius, spars with some Laguz Kings, and can apparently make the Daein army lose just by his presence. 

At least, he's a cut above any Lord who doesn't have dragon blood.

But that's the thing isn't it? He "spars with some of the Laguz Kings" but all of them are stronger than him. So are we not counting them as heroes? I mean, if so, fine, you're probably right, but it's a weird statement.

[Salamud]

Double post here. A mistake.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Salamud