Fire Emblem Echoes sold less on its first week in Japan than either Shadow Dragon or New Mystery did.

[Silas Crowley]

I'm seeing "Enemy-only things are in every FE game" and "FE is being innovative" shot back at some of the things I've said in the same breath. 

But maybe I'm just not understanding this; really cool items and abilities are being locked to enemies, to the point where Echoes doesn't even let you touch a finger on really dark magic. I'm also not so keen on the way Fates and Echoes seem to have nerfed a lot of things; plenty of stuff was broken in Awakening, yet- the "fixes" to that more or less just made other things broken, such as Replicate and Warp. This applies less to Echoes (currently; it all depends on the DLC)

It isn't innovative. Dragon Veins are actually not a unique thing; in most Fire Emblem games, chapters offer you the ability to go somewhere to trigger an event. That's all a Dragon Vein is. It's a royalty-locked event trigger, which is arguably a step down from previous mechanics, in that they're now generic and less dialogue-rich events. They did make gameplay better, but I would've rather they done this the old way; i.e, having to move someone like Flora or Felicia onto lakes to freeze them, rather than using a Dragon Vein to do this.

And going straight for Imhullu when I say I want us to have Enemy Only things is a really obvious extreme; no, I didn't say you should give the player weapons that make you invincible, but what about Iago's staves? What about the monster-summoning Messiah tomes? What about mostly-fine dark magic that's still locked to enemies? You just can't have dark mage guys in your party...?

That and giving axes the axe (horrid pun) was a stupid move. I know a few devoted players who really loved the axe, and they had charm even though I'm a mage kind of guy.

What I meant was that the ability to summon monsters would've been really cool. Summoning phantoms in FE8 was actually very useful and interesting, even if it was a tougher strategy to use effectively. Summoning 1-2 zombies and using them as meatshields would actually open up some options you don't normally have in this game, as those would be expendable units you'd intentionally put into fatal situations to advance your actual units with. 

You almost never do that in FE, unless you've just made a mistake you're willing to go through the rest of the game with.
The phantoms are used in the similar way, but they're inferior to and less flexible than monsters, which have specialized roles.

If I lacked lance-users or archers in a chapter, then a valid counterplay could be to summon Bonewalkers when I needed them!
Users of both those weapons would of course remain the superior option, however, so it's not as if we obsolesce real units with necromancy.

I'm saying things like a special staff-sorcerer, or the use of advanced summoning / necromancy, and yes even some wild tomes like Grima's Truth (which isn't the strongest weapon, but its infinite durability would've been handy in the endgame, where it's just a chore because you can afford to keep replacing your rapidly-breaking weapons) would've been good to have. 

Making these things enemy-only doesn't make me feel impressed, nor does it make these things truly 'special'. It only restricts their use, leaving you with less strategies to use that you could've potentially had, none of which are really broken; even if they were- they could just be balanced, or have less-powerful obtainable versions the player can acquire as optional/challenge objectives.

It's more or less a bad mechanic to make excusably "broken" items, which the AI is afforded because its intelligence is inferior to a human's- err, usually. 
Saying it's too strong or that it would become boring if obtainable isn't a valid argument: because of A: the ability to balance and even make separate player-obtainable variants of such items/abilities, and B: that it can be just as 'special' if it is a rare or difficult-to-obtain reward, i.e; having to fulfill secondary objectives in a hard chapter while fulfilling your main objective. 

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

really cool items and abilities are being locked to enemies, to the point where Echoes doesn't even let you touch a finger on really dark magic.

And? As mentioned before, every FE does this in some way. A Dark Magic user wasn't even playable until Thracia.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

I'm also not so keen on the way Fates and Echoes seem to have nerfed a lot of things; plenty of stuff was broken in Awakening, yet- the "fixes" to that more or less just made other things broken, such as Replicate and Warp. This applies less to Echoes (currently; it all depends on the DLC)

This is something that just happens in general. It's impossible to have a perfectly balanced game. Look at Smash. Bayonetta was the best character in the game, got nerfed, and now Cloud is the best character in the game.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

It isn't innovative. Dragon Veins are actually not a unique thing; in most Fire Emblem games, chapters offer you the ability to go somewhere to trigger an event. That's all a Dragon Vein is. It's a royalty-locked event trigger, which is arguably a step down from previous mechanics, in that they're now generic and less dialogue-rich events. They did make gameplay better, but I would've rather they done this the old way; i.e, having to move someone like Flora or Felicia onto lakes to freeze them, rather than using a Dragon Vein to do this.

Dragon Veins made a significant change on maps, something that never happened in older games. The closest I think of is in Binding Blade, in Ch.18A, where Niiume (or whatever her name is) freezes all the rivers and even then, that's story-based. I can't really remember a time in older FEs where going somewhere would trigger an event (not counting stuff like recruitment obviously)

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

but what about Iago's staves? What about the monster-summoning Messiah tomes? What about mostly-fine dark magic that's still locked to enemies? You just can't have dark mage guys in your party...?

Iago doesn't have any personal Staffs. Are you referring to Staff Savant? Yeah, that breaks the game. The monster-summoning Messiah tomes? Do you want to cheese the game with Draco Zombie Summons? Dark Magic being locked to enemies? See Fire Emblems 1 through 4. And 15, of course.

 

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

That and giving axes the axe (horrid pun) was a stupid move. I know a few devoted players who really loved the axe, and they had charm even though I'm a mage kind of guy.

In the context of Gaiden/Echoes, it's not that big of a deal, really. In any other game, it would have been, but the first three games in the series+their remakes barely had playable axe users (Gaiden/Echoes having none).

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

What I meant was that the ability to summon monsters would've been really cool.

Yeah, it would have. It would also break the game. When the enemy summons Draco Zombies, it presents a challenge for you to overcome. When you summon Draco Zombies, the game just plays itself.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

Summoning 1-2 zombies and using them as meatshields would actually open up some options you don't normally have in this game, as those would be expendable units you'd intentionally put into fatal situations to advance your actual units with. 

Or, you could use the Invoke spell Silque, Genny, and Tatiana have to summon more than just 2 meatshields. Silque summons Dread Fighters, Genny summons Soldiers, and Tatiana summons Pegasus Knights iirc.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

The phantoms are used in the similar way, but they're inferior to and less flexible than monsters, which have specialized roles.

 

Not really.

 

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

If I lacked lance-users or archers in a chapter, then a valid counterplay could be to summon Bonewalkers when I needed them!

Assuming the Bonewalker has the weapon you require. Also........why would not have any Lance-users or Archers in a chapter? I mean, i can understand Archers a bit, but Lance-users? There's enough of them to go around, to where you would have at least 2 or 3 on the field.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

even some wild tomes like Grima's Truth (which isn't the strongest weapon, but its infinite durability would've been handy in the endgame, where it's just a chore because you can afford to keep replacing your rapidly-breaking weapons) would've been good to have. 

The game literally throws money at you. And no offense, but if your weapons are breaking that quickly, then your doing something wrong.

 

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

Making these things enemy-only doesn't make me feel impressed, nor does it make these things truly 'special'. It only restricts their use, leaving you with less strategies to use that you could've potentially had, none of which are really broken; even if they were- they could just be balanced, or have less-powerful obtainable versions the player can acquire as optional/challenge objectives.

Except it really doesn't restrict your strategies. If anything, you have to come up with a strategy to overcome them. Also, again, it's impossible to have a perfectly balanced game. Some things will inherently be more broken than others. You can try to fix it but then a new "OP thing" appears in it's place.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

It's more or less a bad mechanic to make excusably "broken" items, which the AI is afforded because its intelligence is inferior to a human's- err, usually. 
Saying it's too strong or that it would become boring if obtainable isn't a valid argument: because of A: the ability to balance and even make separate player-obtainable variants of such items/abilities, and B: that it can be just as 'special' if it is a rare or difficult-to-obtain reward, i.e; having to fulfill secondary objectives in a hard chapter while fulfilling your main objective. 

A. I'm not going to repeat my points about game balance

B. This ties into my previous points about game balance. If I can get my hands on the power to summon Draco Zombies, or being able to use Staffs infinite, then that just breaks the game.

Basically, from what i'm reading here, what you want is the perfect Fire Emblem game where the player has everything at their disposal.

 

Edit: But this is really off-topic actually. If you want to discuss this, just make a different thread for it.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Armagon

[Tryhard]

15 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

and "FE is being innovative" shot back at some of the things I've said in the same breath. 

I don't necessarily think FE is always innovative at all, but calling a remake of one of the games that is noted as being more experimental and introducing a lot of elements that are either not in the series since or have been adopted later is off. They very well could have just stuck with making Fates 2.

Also, you talk about innovation as if it's necessary, regardless. We've seen plenty of examples of games that just straight up take previous genres and more or less do nothing new with them do extremely well both critically and with popularity. You may not be happy with it but Fire Emblem has been at its top form for Awakening and Fates that you seem to have a problem with for not 'innovating' enough. That doesn't speak for any quality that you may find in them, but it's worth noting that it's not necessarily a good or bad thing.

Axes are my favourite weapon type too - I don't care so much as to base a complaint about them not being in the game, and while if they were added (along with the weapon triangle) I wouldn't mind seeing them, both it would require an overhaul to the enemies in the Gaiden remake, and people severely overestimate the impact the weapon triangle has past the early game in most Fire Emblems.

By the way, if we're going there, should enemies be able to use all the powerful player-only preferred weapons like Falchions at some point? Is it only fair when the player gets (most) of everything?

Edited May 5, 2017 by Tryhard

[RJWalker]

8 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

I'm seeing "Enemy-only things are in every FE game" and "FE is being innovative" shot back at some of the things I've said in the same breath. 

I fail to the see the problem with this. No, seriously, I fail to see how these two statements being said in the same post is some sort of problem. You thinking it is a problem implies that any mechanic that remains the same between games is evidence of lack of innovation.

I'm gonna be honest here. Complaining about enemy exclusive stuff seems stupid.

[Harvey]

15 hours ago, Lyon's Dirge said:

 

Wow a remake of an unpopular Fire Emblem game not selling too well doesn't equate to Fire Emblem dying. Nintendo isn't going to drop Fire Emblem like that because they've been shown they can sell well in the past. I wish people would quit it with these knee-jerk reactions. This also doesn't mean that only "Waifu Emblem" can sell well and that traditional Fire Emblem can't, especially when Gaiden and Echoes aren't even traditional Fire Emblem games. So I also wish people would stop looking at things in black and white.

Except the problem is that people are already bashing at the season pass which while COMPLETELY optional, is more than the game itself...by five dollars difference..

So that would just imply that people are going to avoid getting the game because its making them think that the DLC is needed to fully experience the game or something...kinda like how people got brainwashed into thinking that Fates is a cash grab despite the fact that each path has more content than Awakening combined with the DLC.

 

[Armagon]

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Except the problem is that people are already bashing at the season pass which while COMPLETELY optional, is more than the game itself...by five dollars difference..

So that would just imply that people are going to avoid getting the game because its making them think that the DLC is needed to fully experience the game or something...kinda like how people got brainwashed into thinking that Fates is a cash grab despite the fact that each path has more content than Awakening combined with the DLC.

 

Ehh. Despite all things, the announcment video still has 3K likes compared to 1K dislikes. 

Plus Breath of the Wild's Season Pass still recieved similar outcry (yes i know BotW is a much bigger game).

[DragonLord]

8 hours ago, Harvey said:

Except the problem is that people are already bashing at the season pass which while COMPLETELY optional, is more than the game itself...by five dollars difference..

So that would just imply that people are going to avoid getting the game because its making them think that the DLC is needed to fully experience the game or something...kinda like how people got brainwashed into thinking that Fates is a cash grab despite the fact that each path has more content than Awakening combined with the DLC.

 

I'm sure the reviews will rectify this notion that the base game is incomplete, judging from the previews at least. From what I've seen of the DLC, most of it has little to no bearing on the core game other than grinding purposes, side stories, and some new OP classes. Although ridiculously priced, I think people will come to realize it's not necessary to enjoy the base game.

Edited May 5, 2017 by DragonLord

[Armagon]

10 minutes ago, DragonLord said:

I'm sure the reviews will rectify this notion that the base game is incomplete, judging from the previews at least. From what I've seen of the DLC, most of it has little to no bearing on the core game other than grinding purposes, side stories, and some new OP classes. Although ridiculously priced, I think people will come to realize it's not necessary to enjoy the base game.

This.

Now of course, the real question is, will this game get good scores? And you know, i think it will. People who were invited to those preview events had mostly positive thoughts on the game.

[Silas Crowley]

@Armagon Dragon Veins are still nothing more than trivial event triggers. I criticized what was said about them because they were being treated as an "innovation"; I don't doubt that old FE games didn't do a whole lot with events, but even if true that also fails to be relevant when we're talking about FE as a whole, and the fact that Dragon Veins just made inserting events easier in newer FE installments- yet, that they can be used by any royal / anyone who has dragon's blood takes over-simplifies the event trigger mechanic. 

FE6's water-freezing event required you to at least use one specific character. Not just any royal could do it. In Fates, your (potentially) most powerful unit, Kamui, could just use ALL Dragon Veins you stumbled across. There was little dialogue or story centered around the Veins either. If it had been something unique tailored to each level- such as a machine that only a Mechanist could operate, or using Felicia / Flora to freeze water exclusively- then the mechanic could've been more interesting.

Dragon Veins aren't really a new feature. They're just a standardized event trigger. 

See: Summoning.
I never said the player should be able to summon Dracoliches; I'm not really against it as long as it's not truly cheese, but you're ignoring what I was talking about, which is Necromancy. The ability to summon monsters which have a weapon or damage type your party lacks is absolutely a depth-adding mechanic. You could, if you wished, focus on training mages and tanks instead while just raising Bonewalkers / Maelduins (or whatever) for bow-based damage. The ability of having a unit able to raise something like revenants around themselves could also be a good mechanic; revenants aren't going to "play the game for you" or overwhelm whatever ambushed you, but you might get 1-2 turns of survival to save that unit. 

Like any other spell or equipment, summoning would also need durability and limitations. If you can only raise zombie meatshields once in a chapter, it just becomes another tool to balance with the rest of your arsenal, something you may choose to make use of but not something that would trivialize the game's difficulty. If you could indeed raise summons to tank briefly for you, then you might be able to use more Archers in a level, something which might be quite good if you were up against a lot of fliers in a chapter. 

See: Iago / Staff Savant.
Iago does have staves even without Staff Savant. Unlike normal sorcerers, he has the ability to use them in conjunction with tomes. If we could use Staff Savant as-is... sure, it would be broken, but you should go back and re-read my posts prior if that's what you think I said because I specify that when something enemy-only is intentionally overpowered, the player should have a weakened version of it obtainable as an alternative. I think we should look at some of the mechanics Awakening used: "Plus" versions of skills, which are enemy-only. You can consider any non-obtainable skill of this kind to be a "plus" type skill for the purpose of my argument. A weaker, player-obtainable version exists for each, something that wouldn't have been hard to do.

Say you defeated Iago in Lunatic mode; you could obtain a base-level Staff Savant scroll then, enabling one of your Sorcerers to use staves and offering a smaller variant of the skill's effects.

See: Phantoms in FE8
I don't understand how you can just say "not really" when I state that phantoms are an inferior alternative; they only had 1HP, and exclusively used axes, which offers very little to your arsenal. They can only take one hit as well and consume a turn to make. The ability to get a variety of weapon types out of your summons, as well as the ability to use summons for tanking, would be a preferable expansion to summoning as we have it. 

You should focus more on my Bonewalker example, which you seem to have gotten. This is especially good in chapters where you have a small number of units available to you, as you can use your sub-par summon equivalents in the stead of specialized units, which you might have neither the desire nor the resources to commit to. 

In summary: "Iago doesn't have any personal Staffs. Are you referring to Staff Savant? Yeah, that breaks the game. The monster-summoning Messiah tomes? Do you want to cheese the game with Draco Zombie Summons? Dark Magic being locked to enemies? See Fire Emblems 1 through 4. And 15, of course."

You say you don't want me to make you repeat your points on game balance, but you've made me re-state a lot of things I've already said. The only new thing you've added to the discussion is you want to critique me for "wanting the perfect fire emblem game where the player has everything at their disposal", which isn't much better than the rest of what I've been answering because it's another extreme statement that doesn't try to look into what I've said. Summoning could've expanded into something good, and rare skills derived from previously enemy-only skills would've been the ultimate endgame rewards, a new and rewarding mechanic for achieving difficult challenges.

It isn't off-topic to say why I think Echoes isn't going to sell well and why I think that is. 
I will not make a different topic, as this one suits the subject just fine. 

@Tryhard It does get to opinion at this point- but I think it is sensible to expect innovation, because the FE franchise has had many years and new entries to experiment with. At this point: yeah, I do want new tools and mechanics, without losing existing ones like Axes or Darkness tomes, both of which were some of my favorite weapons. Awakening did well and Fates was recycling its engine. There should've been more than what was in Fates considering how many advantages the development team had to work with.

It doesn't matter to me that these things weren't in the old FE games for the most part. They were in most of the newer games, and they were fun, complete additions that gave the player more tools. If Echoes is supposed to be a remake of Gaiden, shouldn't it be expanding on it and using features from the FE games that came after it? If I had any love of Gaiden, I would've been glad to see the experiment that it was expanded upon and added-onto. As-is, Echoes is just using an antiquated formula for a game that didn't do well. 

I wouldn't mind if enemies were to obtain previously player-only items, either. Let's say Falchion is in the game, but it's in the hands of a corrupt royal rather than the protagonist: now, in order to presumably face enemies which only Falchion could deal with, you'll have to first rebel against that same noble and claim the holy sword. While somewhat generic this example plot has more potential than a lot of the newer FE writing. Giving an enemy something that's usually player-only is an excellent mechanic, although only as good as the plot / story purposes behind said item.

@Ranger Jack Walker As you've said, it would be stupid if all I was saying was any mechanic not changed between games is just dull or lacking in innovation, but being that I'm complaining about mechanics we've lost or almost had to fruition (Summoning) you either got lost somewhere or you didn't pay attention, so you shouldn't be calling anyone stupid. 

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Silas Crowley

[Dandy Druid]

There goes my hopes for a FE4 remake.

I wonder if it would've sold better on the Switch.

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

FE6's water-freezing event required you to at least use one specific character.

No actually. Niiume would freeze the water, but she's recruited AFTER the chapter is over.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

The ability to summon monsters which have a weapon or damage type your party lacks is absolutely a depth-adding mechanic.

I don't see how.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

You could, if you wished, focus on training mages and tanks

The games don't give you enough of one Class to do that though. I mean, you could try a mage-only run of Blazing Blade, but that'd be pretty tough, as the only mages in the game are Erk, Canas (he's a Shaman, i know), Lucius (Monk, i know), Pent, and Nino. That's 5 mages. 5!

 

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

just raising Bonewalkers / Maelduins (or whatever) for bow-based damage. The ability of having a unit able to raise something like revenants around themselves could also be a good mechanic; revenants aren't going to "play the game for you" or overwhelm whatever ambushed you, but you might get 1-2 turns of survival to save that unit. 

Summons in general typically aren't that powerful. Like, the Phantoms in FE8 can barely do anything, since they die in one hit.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

I specify that when something enemy-only is intentionally overpowered, the player should have a weakened version of it obtainable as an alternative.

Except in almost every FE, somethings are enemy-exclusive, and that's the end of the story.

2 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

 "Plus" versions of skills, which are enemy-only. You can consider any non-obtainable skill of this kind to be a "plus" type skill for the purpose of my argument. A weaker, player-obtainable version exists for each, something that wouldn't have been hard to do.

Plus Skills are different. Plus Skills just exist as a "fuck you" to the player, as it makes something harder for the sake of being harder. Something like Iago using Staffs isn't that, mainly since it's a unique ability only he has. Plus Skills are shared among several enemies.

3 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

I don't understand how you can just say "not really" when I state that phantoms are an inferior alternative; they only had 1HP, and exclusively used axes, which offers very little to your arsenal.

I was referring to Gaiden/Echoes Phantoms. Silque summons Dread Fighters, Genny summons Soldiers, and Tatiana summons Pegasus Knights iirc.

3 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

The only new thing you've added to the discussion is you want to critique me for "wanting the perfect fire emblem game where the player has everything at their disposal

Well excuse me, because that's honestly what it sounds like to me.

3 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

without losing existing ones like Axes or Darkness tomes,

That's literally only for Echoes. Did you forget FE Switch is a thing?

3 hours ago, Silas Crowley said:

If Echoes is supposed to be a remake of Gaiden, shouldn't it be expanding on it and using features from the FE games that came after it? If I had any love of Gaiden, I would've been glad to see the experiment that it was expanded upon and added-onto. As-is, Echoes is just using an antiquated formula for a game that didn't do well. 

Did you forget the game has Support Conversations, Base Conversations, Forging, Skills,, Fatigue, and Casual Mode? And then there's new features such as Mila's Turnwheel, Memory Fragments, and a post-game chapter? And there's expanded features such as dungeon exploration getting upgraded to be actual dungeons, and villages feeling like actual villages. So no, Echoes isn't just using an antiquated formula. It's still Gaiden at it's core, but it expanded upon that.

3 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

I wonder if it would've sold better on the Switch.

FE16 is on the Switch tho. That's IS' main project right now. Echoes was a side-project for them.

[RJWalker]

No, I will continue to call it stupid because it is stupid. Every game has enemy exclusive stuff. This is not new. And yes, all your complaining is pretty much boiling down to "This is the same as it was before, wahhh, why no innovation?"

[Salamud]

Enemy-only skills, equipment, and stat boosts are unavoidable when trying to make something like a challenge. The AI isn't skilled enough to overall match humans. Other genres have the AI use exclusive moves or otherwise do things beyond the player's reach.

[Folt]

On Tuesday, May 02, 2017 at 9:27 PM, Armagon said:

The Warioware, Yoshi, and DK games all still take place in the Mario universe, which is why i don't consider them it's own entity unless it's Smash.

As for the Mii games, it's weird. Miis are an enigma. I guess they could be S-Tier.

Mario is technically a spin-off of the DK franchise... or you can say that the two of them are sibling series spun off from the original Donkey Kong arcade game series.

[Harvey]

Oh well...atleast Echoes made it on top three selling games list...

 

[The DanMan]

42 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Oh well...atleast Echoes made it on top three selling games list...

 

Funnily, MHXX is actually doing sub-par by series' standards. Being the 4th mainline game the 4th generation (every other generation had 3) is probably to blame.

SoV will easily break half a million after the Western launch week(end).

[Dandy Druid]

On 5/7/2017 at 4:33 PM, Armagon said:

FE16 is on the Switch tho. That's IS' main project right now. Echoes was a side-project for them.

I was fully aware of that. I was just wondering if it would've sold better. That's all.

[Salad98]

Guys remember that the sales released are from 17th april to the 23rd. Echoes released on the 20th so the sales recorded here aren't for a full week. Only 4 days. 

[Nobody]

1 hour ago, Salad98 said:

Guys remember that the sales released are from 17th april to the 23rd. Echoes released on the 20th so the sales recorded here aren't for a full week. Only 4 days. 

Already brought up, but Shadow Dragon's and New Mystery's first weeks also only had three days.

also, second and third week sales have also been released, so that's irrelevant by now.

it sold 131.668 copies on its first week, 22.722 copies on its second week and 14.765 copies on its third week, for a total of 169.154 copies sold so far, acording to media create. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Nobody