Thane's non-spoilery thoughts on the gameplay

[The DanMan]

I saw this on the subreddit and the more I read it and the comments I began thinking "Wait, is that Thane?"

Probably the most even-keeled review of SoV out there right now.

 

[Thane]

37 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

I saw this on the subreddit and the more I read it and the comments I began thinking "Wait, is that Thane?"

I need two sites worth of discussion to feed my ego. 

Also, if someone brings up Ace Attorney, chances are I'm going to respond.

38 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

Probably the most even-keeled review of SoV out there right now.

Thanks, Danny my boy! I'm sure I'll participate more in the story discussion when the game comes to the West.

[B.Leu]

"Chapter 6 to hell with it". Ah ? you don't like it ? Why ?

Witches can warp everywhere they want but they use that in the worst way possible from I've seen. Kinda funny to see them...:
-Warp: Attack an archer or a mage and get rekt.
-Warp: Attack a random guy, but never, ever, finish him off.
-And the best, Warp: Walk near you and do nothing.

Guess it was needed, I mean, it would be broken otherwise but it's too funny to not talk about it.

From what I've seen, the maps are either too closed or too open. Kinda funny.
But compared to Fates.... yeaaaaah.

4 hours ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Heh, sorry, she's got you there too I like my ladies with pants

*Insert Out of context joke there*

[ChibiToastExplosion]

5 hours ago, Thane said:

It's okay, we can't all have sophisticated, immaculate tastes.

It's okay. I know you chose Sonya and regretted it.

Deen knows.

(That's right, I changed it just for you, archnemesis ;p)

[Thane]

13 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

It's okay. I know you chose Sonya and regretted it.

Deen knows.

(That's right, I changed it just for you, archnemesis ;p)

Excalibur + Magic Ring, brah. Sonya doesn't what Deenot!

Yeah? Well I've already got anime Sherlock Holmes as my avatar, and you're my Moriarty, so I was already a step ahead of you. I could always change it to Catria in support of the superior Whitewing.

Quote

"Chapter 6 to hell with it". Ah ? you don't like it ? Why ?

@B.Leu It would be quicker to explain what I do like about it. It is a considerably shorter list.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Thane

[ChibiToastExplosion]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

Excalibur + Magic Ring, brah. Sonya doesn't what Deenot!

Yeah? Well I've already got anime Sherlock Holmes as my avatar, and you're my Moriarty, so I was already a step ahead of you. I could always change it to Catria in support of the superior Whitewing.

I'm gonna have a ton of fun souping up Deen to massacre all mages with his bonkers res and his Brave sword.. I'll show ya ;p

For those who didn't know, Deen did get a pretty significant buff in his slash line:

Gaiden
40/20/15/15/10/10/0

Echoes
60/45/35/40/15/40/0

Look, I'm not gonna argue that Sonya isn't overall better, but it should be noted that Deen isn't quite the pile of hot garbage that he used to be. There is actually more of a choice now - I just hope the people see it, instead of assuming he's unchanged. Both characters are ultimately a glut of their class in a route packed with mages and mercenaries.

You don't have to change anything, I just feel like I'm the only guy in Deen's corner. Didn't realize you liked Palla that much tho.

[Cyas]

13 minutes ago, Thane said:

It would be quicker to explain what I do like about it. It is a considerably shorter list.

Please do, though I would appreciate it if you could mention the cons too. Hardly anybody has given an in-depth explanation about the gameplay of Chapter 6.

[Thane]

5 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

I'm gonna have a ton of fun souping up Deen to massacre all mages with his bonkers res and his Brave sword.. I'll show ya ;p

You mean the Brave Sword I pried from his cold, dead hands? It's a pretty nice weapon; Saber has been putting it to good use.

2 minutes ago, Cyas said:

Please do, though I would appreciate it if you could mention the cons too. Hardly anybody has given an in-depth explanation about the gameplay of Chapter 6.

Fair enough.

The good: 

Spoiler

The fact that it explains where Grima comes from, making him both much more different and much scarier than any other dragon in the series.

The bad:

Spoiler

The rest.

No, seriously. There's no story or voice acting tied to it, making it just an odd epilogue - I say odd because we already read all the characters' endings. However, the gameplay is by far the biggest complaint. You explore a massive dungeon that's 10 floors deep that does not have save points. The enemies get ridiculous after a while, and I've only cleared the eighth floor so far because I'm spamming illusions to distract the more powerful enemies - we're talking enemies with a Strength of 49, with my Alm having by far the best Defense on my team with 24. If you want to grind, it'll take forever, because you get almost no EXP for defeating units at this point

It's bizarrely out of place, anachronical and a chore to play through.

 

[Azz]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

You mean the Brave Sword I pried from his cold, dead hands? It's a pretty nice weapon; Saber has been putting it to good use.

Fair enough.

The good: 

  Hide contents

The fact that it explains where Grima comes from, making him both much more different and much scarier than any other dragon in the series.

The bad:

  Hide contents

The rest.

No, seriously. There's no story or voice acting tied to it, making it just an odd epilogue - I say odd because we already read all the characters' endings. However, the gameplay is by far the biggest complaint. You explore a massive dungeon that's 10 floors deep that does not have save points. The enemies get ridiculous after a while, and I've only cleared the eighth floor so far because I'm spamming illusions to distract the more powerful enemies - we're talking enemies with a Strength of 49, with my Alm having by far the best Defense on my team with 24. If you want to grind, it'll take forever, because you get almost no EXP for defeating units at this point

It's bizarrely out of place, anachronical and a chore to play through.

 

inb4 @ChibiToastExplosion says if you recruited Deen you would have had an easier time.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

2 minutes ago, Thane said:

The bad:

  Reveal hidden contents

The rest.

No, seriously. There's no story or voice acting tied to it, making it just an odd epilogue - I say odd because we already read all the characters' endings. However, the gameplay is by far the biggest complaint. You explore a massive dungeon that's 10 floors deep that does not have save points. The enemies get ridiculous after a while, and I've only cleared the eighth floor so far because I'm spamming illusions to distract the more powerful enemies - we're talking enemies with a Strength of 49, with my Alm having by far the best Defense on my team with 24. If you want to grind, it'll take forever, because you get almost no EXP for defeating units at this point

It's bizarrely out of place, anachronical and a chore to play through.

 

To be serious for a moment - yeowch, really? What kind of HP/Def do these creatures have - are we talking about a "kill or be killed" scenario? Or do they also have redonk defenses to go along with the stronk, which I would agree would not be fun. Are there also a lot of them per map? Good positioning might enable a range-fest if you can focus on one at a time.

@Azz Ya rly tho, everyone cowers at fighting witches but I always found that map to be more fun to play.

By the sounds of it, having fast durable characters is going to help. Not getting attacked twice sounds like the best defense.

[Thane]

Just now, ChibiToastExplosion said:

To be serious for a moment - yeowch, really? What kind of HP/Def do these creatures have - are we talking about a "kill or be killed" scenario? Or do they also have redonk defenses to go along with the stronk, 

Spoiler

They've purposefully got low Defense...but ridiculous Speed. Basically, it's bows or bust, as they've got good Resistances, too. At least the ones I'm referring to right now.

There are also enemies with weapons that inflict poison that have very high Strength and "??" HP, meaning above 52. If memory serves, they've got around 85 or something, making it even more than in Awakening in spite of your units having just above high level Gaiden stats. Thankfully, it's their only super high stat aside from Strength, but still, it's a time sink.

In short, it's not fun. Even if you can work around them, it takes TIME. And grinding takes forever. Honestly, it makes me wonder if this was made just to sell DLC.

 

[ChibiToastExplosion]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

  Hide contents

They've purposefully got low Defense...but ridiculous Speed. Basically, it's bows or bust, as they've got good Resistances, too. At least the ones I'm referring to right now.

There are also enemies with weapons that inflict poison that have very high Strength and "??" HP, meaning above 52. If memory serves, they've got around 85 or something, making it even more than in Awakening in spite of your units having just above high level Gaiden stats. Thankfully, it's their only super high stat aside from Strength, but still, it's a time sink.

In short, it's not fun. Even if you can work around them, it takes TIME. And grinding takes forever. Honestly, it makes me wonder if this was made just to sell DLC.

 

I'm actually... okay with that. I think that's a good risk reward scenario. Tobin, Leo, and Python just got real important - incentive to make Kliff another archer with EG in mind?

And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised - I didn't really see any other reason to shoehorn the grime in.

Also, maybe you or anyone can answer this as it might help some of the grinding - is it possible to "save" the lionhead statues until later in the game, so that you can give their bonuses to a third/final tier, so that their gains aren't "lost" when promotions are just bumped up to the class floor anyway? Can also help decide who they would help the most a little more clearly.

[Thane]

1 minute ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

I'm actually... okay with that. I think that's a good risk reward scenario. Tobin, Leo, and Python just got real important - incentive to make Kliff another archer with EG in mind?

Spoiler

You might change your tune when you see Palla dropping from 39 to 0 in the battle "forecast", unable to finish off the monsters in one hit. They're not that weak defensively, and they're fast as hell.

 

2 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised - I didn't really see any other reason to shoehorn the grime in.

Huh? 

3 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Also, maybe you or anyone can answer this as it might help some of the grinding - is it possible to "save" the lionhead statues until later in the game, so that you can give their bonuses to a third/final tier, so that their gains aren't "lost" when promotions are just bumped up to the class floor anyway? Can also help decide who they would help the most a little more clearly.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be the case. I've thought about doing that myself on a hard run.

[Cyas]

Well, that's a shame, and it's only Normal mode too. Thanks for the info in any case. I hate grinding in games so I suppose I'll have to be creative and very patient.

[Armagon]

So basically, Ch.6 is harder than Conquest Endgame on Hard/Classic?

[B.Leu]

I dunno, Sonya seems the better choice. I mean, Saber already do a good job at being a swordfighter, so why bother ? He'll make a better use of the Brave Sword.
Wherea Sonya is a Mage, it's like having access to mutiple weapons.

I agree with the good, I spoiled myself and I think it's a fantastic idea to have done that.
So basically, it's both a Brutal Bonus Level, and a Boring Bonus Level ? Huh.
I trust you, as such, I'm a tad hesitant approching this dungeon now. Seems like a Apo DLC.

Oh well, at least, it's far, far away from Awakening plot wise... but I'm the only one who's fine with it. :p

[Thane]

4 minutes ago, Armagon said:

So basically, Ch.6 is harder than Conquest Endgame on Hard/Classic?

I wouldn't even say it's hard; it's a bit unfair and tedious, more than anything. The lack of save points in particular is a baffling design choice remeniscent of the SNES era where games were purposefully made harder to lengthen the playtime. Which, in a sense, is fitting, but it does not make it funnier to play.

[Armagon]

Just now, Thane said:

I wouldn't even say it's hard; it's a bit unfair and tedious, more than anything. The lack of save points in particular is a baffling design choice remeniscent of the SNES era where games were purposefully made harder to lengthen the playtime. Which, in a sense, is fitting, but it does not make it funnier to play.

Huh, interesting. I've heard that on Hard mode, enemies have zero luck for some reason, which makes it super easy to land crits. Assuming that carries over into Ch.6 Hard Mode, it may actually be easier, since enemies defenses are low.

As for the unfairness, i'll have to judge it myself. So far, the most unfair chapter i've ever played through is Binding Blade Ch.21 (thanks infinite reinforcements that spawn when i get to certain places. And that's not counting the turn limit if you want Apocalypse). Conquest Endgame too but that's more of just the fact that if you reset, the game sends you back to Ch.27.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

I agree with all of this, except Catria having a better design than Palla. >:(

Est is supposed to be better than both Palla and Catria once trained up, so the comparison to show that they're not unique is a bit strange to me tbh.

Also, I love the character designs and outfits. I'd be 100% fine if Hidari replaced Kozaki.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

16 minutes ago, Thane said:

  Reveal hidden contents

You might change your tune when you see Palla dropping from 39 to 0 in the battle "forecast", unable to finish off the monsters in one hit. They're not that weak defensively, and they're fast as hell.

Huh? 

Spoiler

The Grime, aka, Grima. I know people seem to be alright with his inclusion and I'll wait and see, but I'm initially not happy about it. It's not even an Awakening thing, as I'm fine with that game as a whole, I just don't know why they had to shoehorn anything in there really. It would have been more interesting if they created a new super dragon that nobody ever heard about - or would hear about it, because you take care of them. An untold story, so to speak.

Also I'm willing to chip first - how much damage does a peg sister do on their first strike, typically? Slap on a Gradivus and try to pump their attack as much as you possibly can, that might help. Defensive items seem to have no place in Thabes.

[Thane]

4 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Spoiler

The Grime, aka, Grima. I know people seem to be alright with his inclusion and I'll wait and see, but I'm initially not happy about it. It's not even an Awakening thing, as I'm fine with that game as a whole, I just don't know why they had to shoehorn anything in there really. It would have been more interesting if they created a new super dragon that nobody ever heard about - or would hear about it, because you take care of them. An untold story, so to speak.

 

Spoiler

Honestly, it's pretty darn cool if you ask me, but to each their own. I think including just another world-ending dragon for the hell of it would be super boring.

 

4 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Slap on a Gradivus and try to pump their attack as much as you possibly can, that might help.

Already on Catria, buddy.

5 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Defensive items seem to have no place in Thabes.

Not really, no. You'll be unable to kill the enemies fast enough if you go for shields. 

I don't know, maybe I'm doing something wrong or I'm missing something, but I don't think so.

[Tamanoir]

15 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Huh, interesting. I've heard that on Hard mode, enemies have zero luck for some reason, which makes it super easy to land crits. Assuming that carries over into Ch.6 Hard Mode, it may actually be easier, since enemies defenses are low.

As for the unfairness, i'll have to judge it myself. So far, the most unfair chapter i've ever played through is Binding Blade Ch.21 (thanks infinite reinforcements that spawn when i get to certain places. And that's not counting the turn limit if you want Apocalypse). Conquest Endgame too but that's more of just the fact that if you reset, the game sends you back to Ch.27.

Thracia is pretty good at unfair chapters too. 24xwho decide that combining warping points with FoW is the epitome of fun. The final chapter when any of your units can be randomly berserked on the first turn isn't bad either (+Infinite reiforcement as well, even if they're pushovers that are only there to slow you down.)

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Just now, Thane said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Honestly, it's pretty darn cool if you ask me, but to each their own. I think including just another world-ending dragon for the hell of it would be super boring.

I don't know, maybe I'm doing something wrong or I'm missing something, but I don't think so.

I haven't played it yet, so I can't say. I know I'm eager to try it out for myself, as I'll be jumping right in on hard.

Correct me if I'm wildly wrong, but from the sounds of it the game is asking you to really exemplify what it's taught you up to that point - get the first strikes, know movement ranges, use your archers and ranged magics to the best of your abilities, abuse terrain if you can, and hit hard. It's stupid hard, sure, but that makes a good postgame and frankly good game design to master the tools given. I'll have to judge for myself, but you have me excited.

Even if first strikes only take down 10 or so hp, in situations like these you definitely don't want to be caught the other way.

I always want Camus to have the Gradivus by rights, but if it gives the Pegasus sisters the extra oomph to secure the KO (and then honestly, it should be Palla if you can't live to make a second strike anyway and she's a tad stronger) I might have to rethink that.

[Thane]

4 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

It's stupid hard, sure, but that makes a good postgame and frankly good game design to master the tools given. I'll have to judge for myself, but you have me excited.

I can handle it being difficult - I love challenges. This is just tedious and strikes me as almost purposefully unfair in order to get people to grind - and guess what kind of DLC is just around the corner. 

I'm fairly confident when I say my complaints don't mean that my skills are not up to snuff. I've yet to actually die in Thebes.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Thane

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Just now, Thane said:

I can handle it being difficult - I love challenges. This is just tedious and strikes me as almost purposefully unfair in order to get people to grind - and guess what kind of DLC is just around the corner. 

I'm fairly confident when I say this has not to do with my skills not being up to snuff.

I'm sure that has something to do with it, sure, and I'm not questioning your skills, so relax.

I'm definitely going to try without the DLC, though. Even though I have been fighting it, Faye is going to be a cleric with Rescue and Again. Hit 'em and run 'em. Crit 'em with Deen.