Thane's non-spoilery thoughts on the gameplay

[Thane]

Hello everyone.

Thane talking about gameplay? On my forum? It's more likely than you think!

So since I've all but finished Shadows of Valentia, I figured I should share my thoughts and maybe compare them with those of other chaps on the forum. Keep in mind though that they're my opinions and might clash with yours or others. I'll split it up into the good and the bad, since I think that'll make it easier to digest. 

The Good

Worldbuilding and presentation

Maybe it's just me being a fan of point and click adventures like Ace Attorney (mandatory "before Yamazaki botched everything") but the presentation is right up my alley. I love talking to random people to find out about what's going on in the neighborhood, what the town is about, what their thoughts on the current conflicts are, and so on. Coupled with Alm and Celica being able to click on things and offer their own thoughts on what they see, it adds a lot of character to the world.

On top of that, most things are really pretty. While I'm not as big a fan as many others seem to be, the character and armor designs are for the most part really good barring a few odd exceptions. Voices also help characters come alive in a way like never before, and it really is a huge step forward for the series.

Flexible classes

I really like the villagers. One of my issues with the original Gaiden was that, if you wanted to play the game blind, you had to take a guess at which class suited which character - I made Tobin a Mage and he was useless for the entire run. However, in Shadows of Valentia, they drop some hints at what characters are good at - Alm can observe, for example, a place where Kliff practiced magic, and an area where Tobin practiced with a bow. That's a brilliant way of pointing you in the right direction, but the choice is always up to you. If you want to make them all into Soldiers and get obliterated by Witches later on, that's your prerogative.

The only issue is that you can't find out about people's spell list somehow in advance, once again making it a bit of a gamble.

Items

Items here feel like they have more importance than in other games, seeing as you can only have on equipped at once. While I think it's a bit cheap to not let our units carry at least one weapon and one healing item, it's fun to mess around with different items to see which one fits which character, and it forces you to plan out if you want a unit to be more defensive or offensive - or you could just give a Magic Ring to Delthea and watch her blow up everything in her path while Alm sips on some delicious drinking water.

The forging system is also pretty good, I would say. You obtain silver and gold coins during your travels, and each weapon can be upgraded from once to five times, with increasing costs and efficiency per rank. I find that upgrading lances is usually the best, since they tend to remove weight and allows the Falcon Knights to get even better at leaving every other character in the dust.

The music

That's it, the music is stellar. The only real complaint I have has to do with the battle theme getting really old really quick, also interrupting the flow of the map theme. I'm a much bigger fan of how Awakening and Fates dealt with that, but still, that's only one complaint - the game sounds fantastic.

The bad

Maps

There's no way to sugarcoat this: the maps are not fun. It's not just the design, which is usually subpar when compared to the rest of the series - and yes, even when compared to Awakening in my opinion - but also the fact that they're long, slow and tedious to play through for a number of reasons. First of all, they're usually either far too small (and later filled with Bow Knights which can pretty much cover the entirety of the maps - better kill them quick or your healers are toast) or far too big. Secondly, Celica in particular has too many desert and swamp maps where movement is heavily restricted - good luck using Valbar when you can just use the far superior Whitewings. Thirdly, and this is a big one, enemies can keep on summoning redshirt units and throw them at you without any sort of consequence; on most maps, they're far away from you, on a healing spot that also grants avoid and surrounded by other enemies. The summoned units are usually surprisingly bulky, and some are rather swift, so if you don't knock them out quick they can cause some havoc even if they're not particularly powerful. Since they nerfed Dear quite heavily, you don't have a quick fix button unlike in Gaiden.

The AI

There are two examples in particular I want to bring up, and since one of them might affect how you play the game, I'll put them in spoilers. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken about something.

Spoiler

1) Witches can - but don't - teleport and kill all of your Soldiers in just a few shots. Sometimes, however, the just teleport and attack characters that they don't deal much damage to and which in turn can attack and kill them, rather than going for the sitting ducks. However, always having to worry about your units with low Resistance getting attacked from behind further slows down maps.

2) You can just keep summoning weak illusions and the AI will always attack them even if they can kill Alm or Celica. 

Apparently, judging by the interview from yesterday, this was intentional. I cannot wrap my head around this decision.

Low movement speed

The maps are mostly big and units with low movement speed get left in the dust. This is particularly bad on Celica's route, but Alm's party suffers from it to some extent as well. It further adds to the slowness of the game.

Some aspects of dungeon exploring

There are lovely aspects to dungeon crawling as well, like finding some hidden paths and stocking up on items. However, the controls are floaty, the encounters many (and you can't see far ahead of you at all, sometimes running into them) and they respawn if you leave the current floor, and mandatory fights return if you leave the dungeon. It's a neat feature, but there's a lot of room for improvement here.

Units don't feel as unique

Now we're really approaching subjective territory here, but with class base stats and weapon skills disappearing when you unequip the weapon (and they can't double so they're usually best on slow units), it feels like characters are a bit too similar. My Est and Palla are virtually identical, while Catria is just a bit quicker and weaker; other than that there's not much separating them aside from Catria's clearly superior design. In a sense, even though I like items here, it feels a bit like characters become their items.

Chapter 6

To hell with it.

Final thoughts

I've had a good time with Shadows of Valentia up until chapter 6, and now I just don't feel like completing the game. The thing is, the game before that is relatively short, and thus I'm a bit afraid of the replayability especially when compared to more recent entries; no doubt this will be a subject of discussion for the reviewers as well.

Shadows of Valentia is a pretty game with a lot of features that I would definitely like seeing implemented after some polish in future titles, but at its core, the age of the game on which it's built is felt much more often than I would have liked. It's a very pretty package, and I've had fun, but my Fire Emblem itch has simply not been as satisfied as I had hoped it would be, and the wait for FE Switch feels long.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Thane

[VincentASM]

Thanks for the impressions!

Can't really disagree with much, except maybe the character uniqueness.

I do understand Gaiden/Echoes is a lot different to other FEs, despite the same core gameplay (and sometimes not always for the better, like the map design). Hopefully it doesn't put a lot of people off though, since it's a great game overall, if not a great FE.

[Armagon]

How long did it take you to finish the game, not counting Ch.6?

[Reality]

Thanks for typing it all out. Everyone else just says vague stuff like "in certain areas it's too faithful to the original"

I definitely feel like the gameplay gets too unpleasant for this game to be a keeper personally. It's nice to have played it once though.

I really think the presentation is top notch, although I do feel like some of the cut scenes have an uncally valley thing going on (although they mostly still get the emotions across- just don't watch them too many times).

[Thane]

15 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

Thanks for the impressions!

Can't really disagree with much, except maybe the character uniqueness.

I do understand Gaiden/Echoes is a lot different to other FEs, despite the same core gameplay (and sometimes not always for the better, like the map design). Hopefully it doesn't put a lot of people off though, since it's a great game overall, if not a great FE.

I had fun with Gaiden too, but it very much is a product of its time. I'm thrilled more people will experience the good parts of the game in a more welcoming format, but I wish they had modernized it a bit more. The game wouldn't have been broken if Priestesses got one movement speed upon promotion. 

Anyway, I'd say the game is worth the money and I'm sure people will have fun, but this feels like, well, a side story more than a full-fledged entry in certain aspects.

4 minutes ago, Armagon said:

How long did it take you to finish the game, not counting Ch.6?

Less than 30.

3 minutes ago, Reality said:

Thanks for typing it all out. Everyone else just says vague stuff like "in certain areas it's too faithful to the original"

I definitely feel like the gameplay gets too unpleasant for this game to be a keeper personally. It's nice to have played it once though.

I really think the presentation is top notch, although I do feel like some of the cut scenes have an uncally valley thing going on (although they mostly still get the emotions across- just don't watch them too many times).

The presentation is great, and I hope Hidari can come back in some fashion and help out with the series, even if the Switch might have a different artist. I also forgot to mention how much I love Alm and Celica explaining where they are when entering a dungeon, and how all locations have a short description to read about them, fleshing out the world further. This probably has the best worldbuilding in the series barring Tellius.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

32 minutes ago, Thane said:

I had fun with Gaiden too, but it very much is a product of its time. I'm thrilled more people will experience the good parts of the game in a more welcoming format, but I wish they had modernized it a bit more. The game wouldn't have been broken if Priestesses got one movement speed upon promotion. 

Anyway, I'd say the game is worth the money and I'm sure people will have fun, but this feels like, well, a side story more than a full-fledged entry in certain aspects.

I appreciate the positivity!

I'm very much a product of the time as well, and seeing how Gaiden was one of my favorites I'm sure I'll love this one even more. It's always interesting to hear what other people think of things, however. I myself appreciate and am very happy to hear that even with all of the additions, it's still very much the game that I love. I'm okay if others don't - but FE is getting more and more complex and I'm a fan of the simpler styles (1-3, 6). I've kind of been seeing this game as my last personal hurrah.

Interesting to see a short game be lambasted for having little re-play value, though; I've always found the shorter games infinitely more replayable.

[NekoKnight]

From how much I've played (just the first two chapters) I can say this reflects my experience. (Although I chose my villager promotions based on what I thought would look the best rather than paying attention to those clues to their interests lol).

It can't be said enough how fantastic the presentation of this game is. Full voice acting, animations (the animation can be a bit janky but I digress), cut scene art, town exploration and many other elements. The music is also a gem, even moreso if you listen to how the old tracks sound compared to the remasters.

The maps leaves so much to be desired, unfortunately. A lot of maps are uneccesarily big and don't take advantage of their features. Take for example the final battle of chapter 1. You assault a castle and first you must cross a river. No enemies. Then you must breach a gate. No enemies. Then you take a LOOOOONG walk around to get onto some ramparts to defeat a small group of soliders (or just arrow them all to death from below) and then you fight a small force in the courtyard and you win. This is a castle siege and you fight two bloody groups!

Also as Thane said, fighting summoners. This is a game where enemies are whittled down after several combat phases. Now imagine 6 enemies are summoned in a single turn and the summoner can just keep doing this without consequence. I can respect wanting to keep the feel of the original but maybe they could have made some parts less....shitty?

Don't get me wrong, I think Gaiden has a lot of interesting ideas but I think they failed to polish a lot of things anyone could tell you aren't fun.

[Thane]

5 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Interesting to see a short game be lambasted for having little re-play value, though; I've always found the shorter games infinitely more replayable.

Aside from the villagers there's simply not as much to experiment with; there are fewer characters, supports and even difficulties than usual. You could play around with other items and weapons, recruit Deen instead of Sonya (because only a fool would recruit Deen instead of taking his sword from his cold, dead hands) and stuff like that, to be sure, but when compared to gameplay elements like a second generation - something I should point out I'm glad is not in Shadows of Valentia, mind you - where you can toy around with different pairings, there is no comparison.

That is just my take on it though. Maybe people will disagree, or maybe the DLC will help out in that regard.

[property of nuvelle]

I haven't touched the game (waiting for western release) but I see what you mean about character uniqueness. After seeing the growth rates, they didn't seem to different from each other. To me, the character's base stats seemed to define them more than their growths. I thought it would make the character's a little similar due to that, so it seems that may have been the case, anyways. I think Fates did a good job at clearly representing a character's strengths and weaknesses in their growths. 

Anyways, I can't wait for this game. Thanks for the review.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Just now, Thane said:

That is just my take on it though. Maybe people will disagree, or maybe the DLC will help out in that regard.

I guess my take is I'm far more likely to take a few rounds at SoV at 30 hours a pop in a lifetime, than I am likely to crack open say Awakening which I poured over 200 hours in. I can focus on different characters and aspects on each playthrough, try specialty runs, things like that.

2 minutes ago, Thane said:

(because only a fool would recruit Deen instead of taking his sword from his cold, dead hands) 

Then I am a fool and Palla is the true pegasus queen you git

[Thane]

Just now, ChibiToastExplosion said:

I guess my take is I'm far more likely to take a few rounds at SoV at 30 hours a pop in a lifetime, than I am likely to crack open say Awakening which I poured over 200 hours in. I can focus on different characters and aspects on each playthrough, try specialty runs, things like that.

Hey, it's only a good thing that you can find a lot of replayability where I might not! It would be fun to do a minimum recruitment run at some point.

Hell, when I think about "fun in video games" my mind still defaults to flying around Bob-omb Battlefield in Super Mario 64 with the wing cap.

2 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Then I am a fool and Palla is the true pegasus queen you git

Have you seen Catria's art in Heroes? Checkmate, atheists.

[AnnaEevee]

Couldn't agree more. Sure, I like this game a lot...but it has flaws. I don't expect everyone to share my like for the game though. It sure is a different experience from other Fire Emblem games so far.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your thoughts! It was really nice to read.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Just now, Thane said:

Have you seen Catria's art in Heroes? Checkmate, atheists.

Heh, sorry, she's got you there too I like my ladies with pants

[Thane]

4 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Heh, sorry, she's got you there too I like my ladies with pants

It's okay, we can't all have sophisticated, immaculate tastes.

[Tamanoir]

21 minutes ago, Thane said:

Have you seen Catria's art in Heroes? Checkmate, atheists.

Est is Best. You're both wrong. (Though Clair is close second.)

One question I had gameplay Wise is what is the preferred playstyle. It's somewhat subjective, but does the game punish you for trying to be too fast, or for taking too much time.

[Thane]

2 minutes ago, Tamanoir said:

Est is Best. You're both wrong. (Though Clair is close second.)

 

5 minutes ago, Tamanoir said:

One question I had gameplay Wise is what is the preferred playstyle. It's somewhat subjective, but does the game punish you for trying to be too fast, or for taking too much time

It depends entirely on the map. I'm usually a bit on the slow side I believe, something I've carried over from my RTS days. The game doesn't punish you for that at all seeing as there's so much regeneration to go around, and you could theoretically farm summons forever, unless the EXP gain falls off if you do it for too long. You get fatigued in dungeons, sure, but there are Mila Statues and a LOT of food, so that's usually inconsequential.

Usually, I'd say it's very hard to rush in seeing as many enemies are faster than you, especially on Alm's route where you face so many Cavaliers and Paladins. Not only that, but they've got Witches that can teleport, too.
 

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Thane said:

Less than 30.

Ah, so about Sacred Stones length. That's not too bad actually.

Spoiler

Story time: I once beat Awakening in less than a day because pair-up+Casual Mode is literally the most broken combo there is.

Also

1 hour ago, Thane said:

Anyway, I'd say the game is worth the money and I'm sure people will have fun, but this feels like, well, a side story more than a full-fledged entry in certain aspects.

That's what the original Gaiden was so it makes sense.

2 hours ago, Thane said:

There's no way to sugarcoat this: the maps are not fun. It's not just the design, which is usually subpar when compared to the rest of the series - and yes, even when compared to Awakening in my opinion - but also the fact that they're long, slow and tedious to play through for a number of reasons.

42 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

The maps leaves so much to be desired, unfortunately. A lot of maps are uneccesarily big and don't take advantage of their features. Take for example the final battle of chapter 1. You assault a castle and first you must cross a river. No enemies. Then you must breach a gate. No enemies. Then you take a LOOOOONG walk around to get onto some ramparts to defeat a small group of soliders (or just arrow them all to death from below) and then you fight a small force in the courtyard and you win. This is a castle siege and you fight two bloody groups!

I'm guessing you could still speed up things like you could in Awakening and Fates (plus the DS remake). Would speeding up, or outright just skipping enemy phase animations, help remedy this a bit and make it more bearable? Because one of the complaints I had with Gaiden was the map design, but it was more of just the fact that everything happened so slowly, it felt like Earth's tectonic plates moved faster. Like, the final battle of Ch.1 itself ain't that bad, it's the super slow speed of things that's the problem.

 

[Thane]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

That's what the original Gaiden was so it makes sense.

Not in terms of having outdated and on occasion unpolished mechanics.

3 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I'm guessing you could still speed up things like you could in Awakening and Fates (plus the DS remake). Would speeding up, or outright just skipping enemy phase animations, help remedy this a bit and make it more bearable? Because one of the complaints I had with Gaiden was the map design, but it was more of just the fact that everything happened so slowly, it felt like Earth's tectonic plates moved faster. Like, the final battle of Ch.1 itself ain't that bad, it's the super slow speed of things that's the problem.

That would most likely help a bit. I tend to only do that with healing and dance animations, but I'm going to do it for all animations now in chapter 6.

[Seishin]

I'm assuming you had the game on hard mode. If that's the case, did you at least find it challenging before chapter 6? 

[Thane]

6 minutes ago, Seishin said:

I'm assuming you had the game on hard mode. If that's the case, did you at least find it challenging before chapter 6? 

I played on Normal due to me being busy at the moment and I didn't want to end up in a situation where I'd have to grind. 

On Normal, the game is pretty easy until chapter 6, though there are a few challenging moments, like the final map, though if you ask me that's for the wrong reason.

[Tamanoir]

29 minutes ago, Thane said:

I played on Normal due to me being busy at the moment and I didn't want to end up in a situation where I'd have to grind. 

On Normal, the game is pretty easy until chapter 6, though there are a few challenging moments, like the final map, though if you ask me that's for the wrong reason.

Do you still have the "timer" on the final chapter, like in Gaiden ? Is it better or worse ?

[Thane]

Just now, Tamanoir said:

Do you still have the "timer" on the final chapter, like in Gaiden ? Is it better or worse ?

You mean with Celica's party being attacked while you walk around in a labyrinth? That's gone. If there was a timer on the final map proper, I didn't check, though it took me quite some time to finish it due to summons and another nasty surprise.

[Armagon]

11 minutes ago, Tamanoir said:

Do you still have the "timer" on the final chapter, like in Gaiden ? Is it better or worse ?

 

10 minutes ago, Thane said:

You mean with Celica's party being attacked while you walk around in a labyrinth? That's gone. If there was a timer on the final map proper, I didn't check, though it took me quite some time to finish it due to summons and another nasty surprise.

Wait what? Timer? Someone please explain.

Also, is that nasty surprise the Megaquake?

[Thane]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

Wait what? Timer? Someone please explain.

In the original Gaiden, Celica's party loses health while Alm has to navigate through a labyrinth. The longer time you took, the more damaged they'd take.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Thane

[Tamanoir]

4 minutes ago, Thane said:

In the original Gaiden, Celica's party loses health while Alm has to navigate through a labyrinth. The longer time you took, the more damaged they'd take.

I don't remember well, but I think you could even loose units if yo took too much time...

It's a good thing they suppressed it.