If Smash 5 comes, what mechanics would you like to see?

[The_antithesis]

With rumors of Smash Bros. on the switch, and another game coming up a near-guarantee, I think it could be a good idea to discuss mechanics that could be put in the game's design. This thread is probably going to be from a competitive perspective.

To start off, here's my idea for a new mechanic: a flail attack. While in hitstun, you could perform a flail attack. This attack would cover your whole body like a N-air and interrupt otherwise true combos. However, this attack would also put you in freefall, so if it doesn't hit, you'll be taking a charged smash attack to the face. Obviously, it would have high set knockback, so the opponent can't hit you after being hit, but it won't kill the opponent, even at high%. This would turn most true combos into 50/50 situations, which in turn would increase the number of mindgames happening at any given point. This mechanic was inspired by the 'burst' attack from Persona 4 Arena.

So, what mechanics do you want introduced (or returned) and why?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

A risky flail mechanic could be pretty cool, but Smash Bros as it is feels too focused on reads and mind games and not enough on direct player skill and reactions. In general, I think defensive options need to be made weaker overall, even if casual players suffer in online matches because of it. Yes, that means dialing back dodge rolls, but I think most people at the casual level would agree with such a change. Everything to do with shields feels like it's in a good place. Ledge options except for ledge roll should have I-frames cut down, it's too hard to cover all possibilities and encourages, yes, more reads.

Smash 4 air dodges are nowhere near as broken as in Brawl, but I still feel like they ought to be dialed back in a certain way. In Smash 4, hitstun continues to scale with knockback, but has "hitstun cancel" moments for aerials and jumps, as well as air dodges. Once your hitstun reaches 41 frames, that's the minimum you need to suffer before you can airdodge, and I think that's a really arbitrary number to decide what's a true combo and what's a 50/50. Players live too long in this game and there's too much potential for making a comeback that it results in extremely defensive, cautious, deliberate play. And the top tiers are too often decided by which characters have the safest, least commital options as a direct response to defensive play.

When it comes down to it, Smash 4 is a meticulously designed game, far more balanced than the previous ones despite its roster size. But it's also too centered on defense and safety that it's not competitively engaging. I want a game more focused on risk taking and putting pressure on the opponent's options. Also, please get rid of Falcon'sDad!Ganondorf. Competent moveset or don't put him in the game.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Gustavos

[Hawk King]

Melee mechanics.

With the largest cast of characters/stages/content ever.

8 hours ago, The_antithesis said:

To start off, here's my idea for a new mechanic: a flail attack. While in hitstun, you could perform a flail attack. This attack would cover your whole body like a N-air and interrupt otherwise true combos.

This would be a really neat idea, but only if actual combos returned, a la melee mechanics.

 

2 hours ago, Gustavos said:

When it comes down to it, Smash 4 is a meticulously designed game, far more balanced than the previous ones despite its roster size. But it's also too centered on defense and safety that it's not competitively engaging.

I can agree with this. But the balance doesn't matter when it's boring to play and watch. That's why melee mechanics need to return. Make it much more hyper offense focused and balance it by making the bad characters better at doing high damaging combos.

[Wayward Alchemist]

They could implement the DLC CHARACTER ALTS YOU PROMISED US SAKURAI YOU LIAR

 

I just want my Alm skin for Roy okay

[Sentacotus]

Honestly I liked how Smash 4 handled things overall.  Things were clean and nice and while I think character balance is hard for a game with a roster this size and a diverse character set I do think they did their best where they could. 

I guess if I could change one thing I would maybe include trophy trading or maybe throw them into the mix on betting on matches. 

Mechanically, I'm afraid I don't have too much knowledge and have been out of the loop to comment but I guess tweaking what Smash 4 did would work.

[The_antithesis]

17 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Make it much more hyper offense focused and balance it by making the bad characters better at doing high damaging combos.

I've been seeing this opinion a lot, and I actually agree with it as well! The only issue I can see with offense>defense gameplay is that it can result in MarvelvsCapcom syndrome, where everyone's broken and there's only ~5 plays in neutral per match, which can mean a little bit of bad luck can completely screw you over. That being said, roll frame data NEEDS to be nerfed and nerfed hard!

[Hawk King]

4 minutes ago, The_antithesis said:

I've been seeing this opinion a lot, and I actually agree with it as well! The only issue I can see with offense>defense gameplay is that it can result in MarvelvsCapcom syndrome, where everyone's broken and there's only ~5 plays in neutral per match, which can mean a little bit of bad luck can completely screw you over. That being said, roll frame data NEEDS to be nerfed and nerfed hard!

I don't know how much you have seen of/played melee, but Smash is so much more fun and satisfying when you can land certain hits or grabs and just know that you scored yourself a kill well before you even land the kill move. Or even just racking up 50+ damage in one combo. Real combos, without any 50/50 bull crap. Melee's only real flaw is that it existed before online updates. After 15 years, every character gets fleshed out completely and the gap between the best and the worst is pretty extreme.

And don't worry. Smash will never reach the level of MvC.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 hours ago, Hawk King said:

Melee's only real flaw is that it existed before online updates. After 15 years, every character gets fleshed out completely and the gap between the best and the worst is pretty extreme.

Just a quick caveat, Melee did get updates - mostly for the PAL release. And those versions of the game are not tournament legal. While not all of the changes would have reshapen the competitive scene and viable roster, a lot are relevant with considerable nerfs to Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik. Not to mention Melee is just an unfinished game in general. Mr. Game & Watch can't L-cancel half his aerials and Roy's dash attack is a headbutt because the hitbox frames were a copy paste from Marth's data that doesn't take into account Roy's slower startup animation.

My biggest problem with Melee Mechanics is just how helpless a character is when airborne. Since you can't air dodge out of tumble (not that that air dodge is so good you would always do it), and the gravity makes you fall too fast into the other player's reach. There really are Marvel situations in Melee, even if most of them are limited to combo-ing fast fallers. If a character lacks vertical combos, they can't compete nearly as well against the opponent's DI. The only horizontal combos are the ones you perform with Fox's shine that has no endlag state, or chain grabs which are just incidentally too powerful on FD.

Then Brawl 180s and makes its air dodge too powerful. No landing lags from an air dodge, and the hitstun cancel point is like 15 or 19 frames compared to Smash 4's 41. The only combos that are possible are those that don't put the victim in tumble - usually chain grabs. "Combo" based characters like Mario, Sheik, and Falcon have no chance racking up damage against that air dodge option. Smash 4's concession between both games was vital, but keeping hitstun cancel in any form was a bad call. Now players live too long by avoiding kill confirms and making a 2 stock meta that caters to characters with the safest, least commital options.

[peener weener]

comboes in melee are a lot more based on reaction to and reading DI quickly and being able to execute exactly what it is that you want to execute, which is no easy task. there aren't really many situations where a character is totally helpless, and if that is the case, it's just due to the sheer amount of skill that goes into the combo, save for stuff like chaingrabs and RTC. the reason you talk a lot more about kill confirms in smash 4 than in melee is because of the way di works in that game.

that said, i'm not sure what i want from smash 5. i'd like it to bring back melee's movement mechanics and DI, but they could just make melee hd and i'd be happy. and then smash 5 could just be smash 4 turbo ultra and that's cool too.

[Comet]

Melee mechanics, easy. It's overall more fun. Melee also has the most complex defensive options of any Smash game. SDI is better and double stick DI allows you to live longer if you're good at it. There are other nuances like V cancrling too.

[peener weener]

v cancelling is less nuance and more novelty, i can't really think of anyone ever taking it seriously

[Comet]

then talk about how shielding in melee is way more complex than in any other smash game. reflection of projectiles, lightshielding, and z powershielding are all useful defensive tools.

[Sentacotus]

I know it was specific to Ryu and kinda made him unique but what if other characters used a similar mechanic as far as adjusting the strength invincibility frames etc.  Though I guess that wouldn't make Ryu all that special anymore and might make the game too technical for its own good.

[Zera]

If I made Smash 5, here's what I would do -

- No powershielding. It completely negates the shield damage of moves like Bowser Bomb, Jet Hammer, etc. What's the point of having a slow-ass move that deals a f***ton of damage if it can't even break shields?

- By extension, heavyweights in general need to be more relevant. Nearly every mechanic in Smash 4 is designed to benefit lightweights and fast characters, which explains why Ganondorf and Dedede are still "forever bottom tier".

- I think the quickest, dirtiest way to improve balance would be a damage-based priority system. So if two moves collide, the higher damage one wins.

- If a character regrabs the ledge or runs out of invincibility, they should NOT get invincibility on get-up.

- If a character takes damage and is knocked back, they should regain their midair jump(s).

- I would like visible gauges for when ledge invincibility runs out, or an opponent escapes your grab. A transparent UI is a good UI.

[peener weener]

4 hours ago, Zera said:

If I made Smash 5, here's what I would do -

- No powershielding. It completely negates the shield damage of moves like Bowser Bomb, Jet Hammer, etc. What's the point of having a slow-ass move that deals a f***ton of damage if it can't even break shields?

- By extension, heavyweights in general need to be more relevant. Nearly every mechanic in Smash 4 is designed to benefit lightweights and fast characters, which explains why Ganondorf and Dedede are still "forever bottom tier".

- I think the quickest, dirtiest way to improve balance would be a damage-based priority system. So if two moves collide, the higher damage one wins.

- If a character regrabs the ledge or runs out of invincibility, they should NOT get invincibility on get-up.

- If a character takes damage and is knocked back, they should regain their midair jump(s).

- I would like visible gauges for when ledge invincibility runs out, or an opponent escapes your grab. A transparent UI is a good UI.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority

heavyweights benefit a lot from rage and reduced DI, bowser and dk are pretty good characters, ganondorf and dedede just have shitty kits. non-super heavyweights like cloud and captain falcon are pretty good too. if you're talking about characters with shitty framedata that's just unavoidable, but there are ways to circumvent that within a character's moveset without tailoring a game to their needs

Edited May 10, 2017 by fuccboi

[Comet]

powershielding rewards players for good anticipation. smash 4 makes it WAY too easy though. i think melee's PS system is good because it pushes the PSer back and still gives shield damage.

 

shield damage could also be remedied by increasing shield damage or shield stun, a la smash 4. or shield stun bonuses could be given like with marth's shieldbreaker. however, slow moves would be trash anyway because of reaction time so i don't see a way nor the need to compensate for them much. you'd just end up with a ton of stuff like ganon's up tilt.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Comet

[Interdimensional Observer]

As a UI change, if they keep adding characters without some getting cut, things are going to get too cluttered on the character select screen.

My suggestion would be make a small expandable/collapsible box for each franchise. A player clicks open the box they want, and then puts their token on the character within that box they want. For franchises which have only one or two playable characters, we lump multiple franchises into a single box.

For instance, select the box with the Fire Emblem logo, and then you can choose Marth, Lucina, Ike, Roy, or Corrin. Select the "Mario Offshoot Series" box with the Yoshi, DK, and Wario logos on it to pick from Yoshi, DK, Diddy, and Wario. Fox, Falco, Samus's variants, Ness, Lucas, and Captain Falcon get placed in an "Nintendo Sci-Fi" box (I know I'm stretching things a little with shoving the Earthbound duo there). Shulk, Olimar/Alph, and WFT get placed in the "New Nintendo Series" box. Duck Hunt, ROB, Little Mac, Mr. Game and Watch all fall into an "NES Retro" box. Pac, Bayo, Ryu, Sonic, and Mega belong in the "Third Party Franchises" box.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I want a return of Taunt Cancelling from Smash 64. You run at a ledge, taunt, and when the slide takes you to the edge your character's animation gets prioritized to the "whoa I'm gonna fall!" animation. But the sound effect continues. I get with certain characters like Sonic it will get really annoying in casual online play but it is the swaggest strat to see in action. Project M added Taunt Cancelling and it was one of my favorite additions. Or they could make all taunts like Bayonettas and just have them generally be cancellable.

[Ki11erpenguin]

I haven't read most of the other posts in this thread, so i apologize first off if what i say has already been mentioned.

SOOO, mechanics i think would be good for smash 5?

#1 better ledge mechanics, and by that i dont mean ledge hogging, i love the ledge trump mechanic, i just want to see all of the getup options be useful, since in this game ledge trapping is one of the most annoying things to get around. since some characters can guarentee a punish at the ledge with the right setup (glares menacingly at Diddy) What needs to happen imo is a buff of getup roll, and getup attack. Roll is reactable and laggy, and attack is also really laggy, (but attack its more ok since its only for callouts when the opponent is being unsafe)

#2 During balance patches (if any) focus more on buffing the weaker characters (RIP Puff ;;) over nerfing the better ones. Obviously this doesnt apply to every situation, because sometimes things still do need to be nerfed (Glares menacingly at Diddy once again) but you get the point. (Greninja is scarred from his traumatic experiences throughout the patches)

#3 More FE characters Kappa

Huh, i thought i'd have more gripes than this, but thinking about it now, smash 4 did a pretty good job.

 

[Ki11erpenguin]

On 5/16/2017 at 11:08 PM, Gustavos said:

I want a return of Taunt Cancelling from Smash 64. You run at a ledge, taunt, and when the slide takes you to the edge your character's animation gets prioritized to the "whoa I'm gonna fall!" animation. But the sound effect continues. I get with certain characters like Sonic it will get really annoying in casual online play but it is the swaggest strat to see in action. Project M added Taunt Cancelling and it was one of my favorite additions. Or they could make all taunts like Bayonettas and just have them generally be cancellable.

But that would make punishing people for taunting impossible :/

[NinjaMonkey]

None of the crap that was in Melee (wavedashing, L-cancelling, et cetera).