Ideas for for theoritical Fire emblem 6 Echoes

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Well, I've heard some horror stories in regards to stats from other members who previously played FE6, and I've also heard that this is an ongoing issue in the franchise as a whole. Do you have an opinion in regards to Fixed Mode used in one of the Tellius games?

FE6 is one of the last titles in the series where you can be screwed out of having decent units. It's like second to only Path of Radiance in having the best prepromotes in the series afaik.

On the subject of accuracy, FE6 absolutely must retain it's low accuracy if it's to be remade. It's like a core aspect in which the game is designed. Remember people, it works that way for the enemy too. Use terrain and the weapon triangle, that low accuracy is a boon not a curse.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

It makes me sad that so many people don't appreciate fangames.
Of course it means emulating which I understand some people daunt to do it.
But it's not that each fangame has the quality of Gheb FE. There are still tons of great hacks in the forum which feature ideas IS never introduced and probably never ever will. I treat a FE romhack as serious as a new official FE part by IS. 
My mentioned patch just fixed the gameplay issues and nothing of the story, but if there was a patch out with also a modified story, then there's no real reason (for me at least) to buy a remake which has probably a worse gameplay quality than a romhack.

 

[Magical Glace]

51 minutes ago, Jotari said:

On the subject of accuracy, FE6 absolutely must retain it's low accuracy if it's to be remade. It's like a core aspect in which the game is designed. Remember people, it works that way for the enemy too. Use terrain and the weapon triangle, that low accuracy is a boon not a curse.

Yeah, Chapter 1 and Chapter 9 in particular get harder with FE7 axe accuracy.  You're kinda banking on those enemies missing.

Though honestly the main reason I appreciate axes and lances having a bit of a nerf (FE6 bows are fine as they are, though some of the units that use them (read: Wolt and Dorothy) could use work) is because I see it as a trade off for no good 2 range on swords.  Swords have no readily available 2 range options in FE6, with one Light Brand in a chest in Chapter 8, then they aren't purchasable until Chapter 23.  And it's not even that great as a ranged weapon since it doesn't factor str.  The only other ranged swords are enemy only outside trial maps (Runesword) and a lategame weapon locked to Roy (The Binding Blade).

Of course, the real best weapon type in FE6 is Anima.  1-2 range, targets res, lightweight, accurate.  

Edited August 11, 2017 by Glaceon Mage

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Compared to FE6....not really. The axe users you get are so few that its not really an issue and only one of them is average and not even that bad. 

Grinding Milady to compensate for the hit rates for steel weapons doesn't work either since again, the steel weapons are bad. And killer lances..ok but they have low uses that its even more frustrating for that and grinding money on a ranked run is itself not recommended.

 

That's where you're wrong, buddy. Not having that many axes in Jugdral means not being able to really take advantage of the Weapon Triangle properly. The Weapon Triangle was borken as hell in FE4, but you only had so few playable axe users, divided by both generations. In the first generation, i think Lex was your only axe user. Well, Lachesis could use them as Master Knight, but she can also use literally everything that isn't Dark Magic. I think Arden can use axes as a General but he's Arden. So, in the first generation, that's three axe users, two of which can only use axes after promotion. The second generation had Hannibal, Leif (after promotion) and someone else that could use axes. So few axe users to get the advanatge over lance users.

 

You're making Steel weapons out to be worse than they actually are. I've uses Miledy reliably with a Steel Lance, though that's after promotion (good thing i promote ASAP). Killer Lances may have low uses but they are supposed to. A Killer weapon with a lot of uses would be broken. And i see that you're under the assumption that someone would be playing a ranked run. Not everyone plays for ranked. I personally don't, so grinding in arenas for gold won't affect my playthrough in a negative way.

[ping]

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

my point was that good luck finding tons of people accepting your point of the RNG balance because by theory, that is partly to be blamed for the game's balance.

I still can't see where you're trying to go. What do you mean by "RNG balance"? What "theory" are you referring to? Where is the connection between random level-ups and your interjection about horrible units? Because the low-tier units of FE6 aren't bad because of RNG, they're bad because their base stats aren't good enough for their join time. Sure, Sophia is obviously a lot more reliant on good level-ups than Niime, but the same (although not as extreme) is true for Allen/Lance and Garret - and I don't think people think that the latter is better than the xmas cavs.

[henrymidfields]

Moving on from my previous argument of gameplay to one of plot and characterisation, let's also make Narcian a bigger threat than he was in the original. Roy, foolishly thinking that the main Bernese Army had left, took over Araphen in Chapter 3. Very big mistake, as Narcian decided to check on Slater and by luck, saw an opportunity to ambush Roy and Co at the end of Chapter 3, and begin a long chase. Chapter 4 would essentially become a timed mission in Hard and Lunatic, where Narcian appears to chase Roy after a certain number of turns. (In Normal, Narcian only appears after Roy defeats Erik.) And if the player took too long to clear Chapter 16, Narcian would start preparing the Manaketes to use them to destroy Aqleia as his final form of defiance. Between Chapter 16 and the original paralogue (or Chapter 17 if Douglas dies) another paralogue will be added which will be a Defense chapter. There Narcian would unleash the prepared dragons against Aquleia - Roy and Co will have to assist evacuating civilians as well as defend the palace. Fail either mission, and it's game over.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

Moving on from my previous argument of gameplay to one of plot and characterisation, let's also make Narcian a bigger threat than he was in the original. Roy, foolishly thinking that the main Bernese Army had left, took over Araphen in Chapter 3. Very big mistake, as Narcian decided to check on Slater and by luck, saw an opportunity to ambush Roy and Co at the end of Chapter 3, and begin a long chase. Chapter 4 would essentially become a timed mission in Hard and Lunatic, where Narcian appears to chase Roy after a certain number of turns. (In Normal, Narcian only appears after Roy defeats Erik.) And if the player took too long to clear Chapter 16, Narcian would start preparing the Manaketes to use them to destroy Aqleia as his final form of defiance. Between Chapter 16 and the original paralogue (or Chapter 17 if Douglas dies) another paralogue will be added which will be a Defense chapter. There Narcian would unleash the prepared dragons against Aquleia - Roy and Co will have to assist evacuating civilians as well as defend the palace. Fail either mission, and it's game over.

I really like the idea of him just showing up in a chapter where he didn't appear in the original. Would be a really nice surprise for veterans 

[Harvey]

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

That's where you're wrong, buddy. Not having that many axes in Jugdral means not being able to really take advantage of the Weapon Triangle properly. The Weapon Triangle was borken as hell in FE4, but you only had so few playable axe users, divided by both generations. In the first generation, i think Lex was your only axe user. Well, Lachesis could use them as Master Knight, but she can also use literally everything that isn't Dark Magic. I think Arden can use axes as a General but he's Arden. So, in the first generation, that's three axe users, two of which can only use axes after promotion. The second generation had Hannibal, Leif (after promotion) and someone else that could use axes. So few axe users to get the advanatge over lance users.

 

You're making Steel weapons out to be worse than they actually are. I've uses Miledy reliably with a Steel Lance, though that's after promotion (good thing i promote ASAP). Killer Lances may have low uses but they are supposed to. A Killer weapon with a lot of uses would be broken. And i see that you're under the assumption that someone would be playing a ranked run. Not everyone plays for ranked. I personally don't, so grinding in arenas for gold won't affect my playthrough in a negative way.

I'd rather have fun over a game that has decent hit rates for axes and giving good units who can use them than a game giving me horrible axe units combined with low hit rates at that. 

And I did do exactly like how you did promoting her ASAP and in my two playthroughs of normal mode, she wasn't as reliable as I hoped she be. She even had issues dicing the wyverns in chapter 21. I honestly don't know what to believe here with how people think of her as great. 

If you find her great, then use her all you want. All I know is that she will lose a bit of speed holding that steel lance she starts off with as well as having hit issues. Some guys here mentioned that as a problem so I'm only spilling the same beans from what they just told me about that and nothing else.

As for ranked runs, yeah sure not everyone will do it but there are sure as hell some that WILL do it and for them, having nearly useless weapons like the steel ones isn't going to help them out.

2 hours ago, ping said:

I still can't see where you're trying to go. What do you mean by "RNG balance"? What "theory" are you referring to? Where is the connection between random level-ups and your interjection about horrible units? Because the low-tier units of FE6 aren't bad because of RNG, they're bad because their base stats aren't good enough for their join time. Sure, Sophia is obviously a lot more reliant on good level-ups than Niime, but the same (although not as extreme) is true for Allen/Lance and Garret - and I don't think people think that the latter is better than the xmas cavs.

But what about the low growths that many of your units have? 

By RNG, I mean the entire concept itself. Yeah the game can be beaten on 0% growth run but to get RNG screwed is really frustrating in many ways since you went through a whole lot and the game just screws you in the face.

I know that you already mentioned that the game even if your RNG screwed is still possible to beat it throughout but the stats that you need or want are not there and its pretty frustrating in that sense.

Anyways I'm not going to argue about this anymore so I'll stop it here.

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Harvey

[Tenzen12]

RNG purpose is force you use more units and make every playthrough different. It's alright if your unit get screwed, next time it will be broken instead. With wast amount of units there is plenty of replacements.

I think some units should get boost by remake though. Cecilia for example, she is supposed be elite but totally fail, being prepromoted is one thing but she doesn't have even decent base stats (I usually spent all items I get to make her mediocre, but still...). Cath: You go through plenty of pain recruit her and as reward you get like worst sword unit in game (she also should get support with Roy) and several other  examples.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Tenzen12

[Harvey]

If its one thing that I think the remake needs to do, its to make a better presentation of the game.

 

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Harvey said:

If its one thing that I think the remake needs to do, its to make a better presentation of the game.

 

What do you mean by that? Like the UI? Because they're obviously going to do that.

[Harvey]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

What do you mean by that? Like the UI? Because they're obviously going to do that.

Pretty much everything except the intro scene.

The way the game starts with blocks of text for narration with little to no interaction between the text scene, how the characters more or less just talk like reading a script instead of doing hardly any sense of acting for their actions, how a lot of the character portraits have different designs than their actual sprites, and some supports having grammar issues such as Gonzo and Bartre.

I guess the UI of the game could also improve but its already as good as it is.

 

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Pretty much everything except the intro scene.

The way the game starts with blocks of text for narration with little to no interaction between the text scene, how the characters more or less just talk like reading a script instead of doing hardly any sense of acting for their actions, how a lot of the character portraits have different designs than their actual sprites, and some supports having grammar issues such as Gonzo and Bartre.

I guess the UI of the game could also improve but its already as good as it is.

 

Ah I see what you mean. Though it should be noted some of those problems might result more from an amateur translation more so than the game's writing.

[darkblade2814]

give roy an ice dragonstone, if he is Ninian's son, make him promote early, give Sophia a dragonstone. (she is half-dragon)

[Fast]

Alright. I won't really bring new ideas on the table, as you people came up with some strong stuff. Rather, I was thinking of summarize (more or less) everything that have been writing, to discuss whether or not a given idea would be great for a theroritical Binding Blade remake. Let's begin, shall we ?

 

- An earlier promotion for Roy. This should definitely be a thing. BUT, Roy should still promote to Master Lord at the end of Ch. 21(X), because of how epic getring the Binding Blade is after you went through this nightmare. So this means Roy should actually promote twice (and a lot of people seem to be perfectly okay with this). Now, the question is... when would be his first promotion ? I believe the end of Chapter 13 is the most perfect moment : Roy has grown as a competent leader, he's matured, and he's about to lead the whole Etrurian - Lycian allied army ! And Roy wouldn't feel like a deadweight in Chapter 14... ugh.... Not convinced yet ? I have another argument, a strong one, which was actually brought by some of you, guys.

 

-"It's very likely that Roy's mother is Ninian so how about making it so that Roy inherits some of her Ice Dragon powers?"  - Armagon. (obviously this also means canon couples being a thing in Elibe). It's implied in FE6 that Roy has some sort of "hidden" power, like the fact that he was "choosen" by his Binding Blade. And there's Sophia, the half-dragon priestess from Arcadia. Confused, are you ? What does Sophia have to do with Roy's early promotion ? Well, let the very game itself show you something interesting :

Quote

"It will be all right... I can see... a light... that will soon be here to help us..." - Sophia, in Chapter 13, speaking about Roy.

"Sophia is half-dragon, half human. That gives her the ability to detect the pulses emitted from other Dragons." - The Elder from Nabata, in Chapter 14. 

Plus, as a Shaman, Sophia is said to possess some mysterious powers. Now, here's a fantastic opportunity to give her more plot relevance, allowing her to find out about Roy's dragon blood and helping him  to unleash its full potential = PROMOTION ! However, I'm not a fan of Roy "transforming" into a dragon. He should just keep his regular form.

 

- "Letting players know the requirements for unlocking the Gaiden chapters in advance". Of course, but they shouldn't make it too obvious. I might sound crazy, but failing to get all the Divine Weapons to eventually meet the bad ending is... actually good ? I mean, it forces you to play Binding Blade again, which is frustrating, but when you finally meet the requirments, you'll experience a fantastic feeling of accomplishment THANKS TO the previous frustration / desbelief. It happened to me... twice... 

 

- "Change up the types of missions" - Dandy Druid. I can only think about the end of Ch.8X : Our favorite Boy just obtained the Durandal, only to realise that Ostia is in great danger as Narcian and his Dragons Wyvers appears to silence Roy's resistance for good. And then, Cecilia and Perceval show up to drive off Narcian. They could make a new chapter out of it, a "Protect the throne"-kinda mission, where you'll have to defend Ostia City / Ostia castle for a certain amount of turns, waiting for the Etrurian army to come. 

 

- "Re-write support conversations" - Harvey. I agree for some (if not, many).

 

- Unbreakable Legendary Weapons ? NO. And I agree with Tenzen12 on this one. Legendary weapons are supposed to be used WISELY, so they make up for it by being incredibly powerful. Let the Binding Blade only have 20-30 uses, but keep its amazing might. About Fae's Dragonstone, I'd love to use it more than 30 times. 40 to 50 seems about right.

 

- New characters. Some of you were thinking about Blazing Blade heroes, or the characters from Hasha no Tsurugi. I won't lie : I like this idea. But Binding Blade's cast is already HUGE. How could Intelligent Systems make that work ? These additionnal characters couldn't be playable, could they ?

 

- New classes. NO. The only "new" class needed in Binding Blade is Assassins. Nothing else.

 

- Lilina as a second protagonist. YES, YES YES YEEEEEEES. With her own personal weapon ? Er... I'm pretty sure Lilina has her name written on Forblaze, just like Hector inscribed his letter on Armads.

 

- A Prologue / End Game. Yes, please. I've always pictured a prologue taking place in Ostia, with Cecilia teaching to young Roy and Lilina. Would be great to see how Roy dropped magic to focus on sword mastery.

- Rebalance the game a bit.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          - Bring the Turnwheel from Echoes.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            - Buff archers. I don't want them to be as broken as Echoes', but at least allow them to attack at close range.                                                                                                                                          - Self-defense weapon for Larum / Prince Mil... I-I mean Elphin.                                                                                                                                                                                                                          - Yahn shoud be the real deal of the end game, not Iduun. Jotari was arguing about how Iduun isn't a Dragon meant to fight, hence why her being weak is fine. Oh, and give Yahn more plot relevance please. 

 

And that's pretty much it. Sorry if it was long, I had a lot to say. Anyway, if one of you took the time to read it all, I really appreciate it. Thanks ! 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Fast

[TadpoleSuperHero]

I guess I'm in the minority here - I want an official English version of Binding Blade, but I'm also not too confident in it really matching the magic of the original. Mainly because of 3D. There's no way the combat animations are going to be as amazing and beautiful as in the GBA version. Not to mention, every 3D FE has had really washed out and limited color palettes. I don't know why that is, because you can have colors pop and be vibrant in 3D (look at Ni No Kuni and Breath of the Wild, not to mention the Tales series, Skies of Arcadia, there are lots of games before and after FE went 3D that do color so much better). 

But anyway, aesthetics aside, I'd still be interested in a remake. Because official English release! And because Roy's pretty great, and I like his crew of characters. 

I also, unlike many others here, don't think much needs to be changed. Here are my suggestions:

1. Roy promotes earlier. Because holy crap, his late promotion, like with Marth, makes him hilariously useless for too large a stretch of the game. The suggestion of chapter 16 or so others have said makes sense storywise and would be great. 

2. Thieves promote. They didn't invent that until 7 so it's fine that they don't in the original, but for a remake, promoting Thieves is a must. Assassin Cath would be amazing.

3. I would at least want the Sword of Seals to be unbreakable. Maybe not all legendary weapons, but I think the ultra-magical-story-specific-sword of destiny seems a little less legendary and amazing if it can break. 

4. I would want them to KEEP the structure of the game. I like how 6 and 7 are structured, where you just go from one chapter to the next. No Barracks or My Castle, no World Map, just chapter by chapter. I like that. I hope they would keep it the same way. Having that variety within the series in terms of structure and style is a good thing.

5. No Support limits. It made sense in 6 and 7, but the fact that they kept that for 8 and 9 made no sense. I'm glad they did away with it from Awakening onwards - now just retroactively make that the way in 6's remake. Also, for romance, don't have S Supports - I really don't like those conversations - just have them reach an A+ level with only one character. And then have a credits blurb about them and their romance blooming after the game is over. I love that stuff. Speaking of which...

6. Give every character a variety of "ending blurbs" during the credits. That's an FE tradition that I hope never goes away. And have a variety for every character, based on their Supports. 

7. Don't add new characters. Especially don't add more 7 characters. Please. If they tie 6 more into 7 than it already is in the remake, that means they'll be changing more of 7 (or not remaking it, or remaking the pair as a single game), and I don't want that. The stories of both games are great. We don't need more characters from 7 in 6. It works as-is. I understand why some people want it, and if they appear as cameos or secret characters, I'd be fine with that. But not as story-focused members that change the flow of the story (and, by extension, impact 7's remake's story). 

8. And on that note, I don't think we really need to add more characters. 6 has a great cast. Adding characters in Shadows of Valentia made sense, as Gaiden's cast was pretty tiny and lacking in variety. 6 doesn't have that problem. If anything, focus in more on these characters. Have Lillina more important and involved in the story - her and Roy as dual protagonists would be great. Give everyone more Support conversations. 

9. And more on that note, please no avatar. A tactician like 7, sure. But I really don't want retroactively added avatar characters. They're not necessary, and they damage the flow of the stories of games that weren't designed with them in mind. The story is about Roy, Lillina, and the companions they meet along the journey. There are already tons of characters. Keep the story focused on them and expand on those characters. 6 has a big cast. It doesn't need more characters. 

So, most of my suggestions are things NOT to change. But I think there isn't much that needs changing. More Support conversations, no Support limits, Roy promoting earlier, and Thieves being able to promote, are the big ones for me. Everything else is strong as-is and doesn't need more. I understand the appeal of adding characters from 7, or having the ability to reclass (though it doesn't work well in 6's structure, not to mention that having dedicated classes helps characters feel more focused and specialized), or having just MORE CONTENT. I get that. But I disagree. 6 is a big game that, like 7, is very well designed for being played multiple times, rather than having one long, extended playthrough where you keep grinding and perfecting and reclassing to your heart's content. And it's good for FE to have games like that. Awakening and Sacred Stones are great in their own right. So are 6 and 7. Variety's a good thing, and having shorter games that have definitive conclusions and a reason to replay are great. Plus, the less they change, the less they have potential to screw up - and, most importantly, the less they change, the less time and money they need to spend on the game. Remakes are exciting. Brand new games are even more so.

[SoulWeaver]

Eh, I dunno, I think we could add the Hasha no Tsurugi characters and be fine - it's only Jemmie, Zeed, and that one Berserker from when Kilmar joins for the bad guys in the main story(and the Berserker could be skipped), and Al, Gant, Tiena, and Kilmar for the good guys, and the only thing it might add story wise would be a Paralogue-Epilogue where you just play through the last bit of Hasha no Tsurugi, locked to Al, Gant, and Tiena. Alternatively, they could maybe add some content from Hasha no Tsurugi as DLC, or one of the maps for the Extras section. I think I'd have it be that Al, Gant, and Tiena were separated, and they join you instead of you just getting Al's Sword, Gant's Lance, and Tiena's Staff, respectively, and then Kilmar…yeah, I don't know where exactly I'd put him. Probably in the Western Isles? Anyways, I'd say they could get away with adding just those four playables and two enemies, but no more than that…wait…I'm forgetting someone. Eh, whatever, hopefully you guys got my point.

Edited October 16, 2017 by SoulWeaver

[Greencapps]

I love the camp idea. Make it functionally identical to the castle towns in FE4 and you're good. Though I wouldn't complain if they gave us a good old fashioned world map either.

Milla's turn wheel is, in my opinion, a series staple and should be a given. 

The support system has to change. Uncap the limit and make them proc quicker because going for supports in the gba games is a pain and pretty much requires grinding dispite being the place with the arguably best story.

I do hope they make the legendary weapons infinite and while they probably should be nerfed as a result maybe they can make them forgeable so you can, if you have the resources to invest, make them totally busted. Or just make it a post game quest.

Full VA is required as far as I'm concerned.

I truely hope they have some kind of post game. Supercharging the legendary weapons is a good option.

And a gaiden chapter where you can find the twin katti would be cool.

The special weapon Eckesachs is a bold choice and would make the weapon triangle always against you in battles against it if it was dynamic but if it was a mode that has to be changed on enemy phase that would make it significantly less insane and wieldable by the player if they chose to go that route. Maybe depending on what mode it's in when you defeat Zephiel you get a different version of the blade.

Earlier promote of Roy would also be appreciated.

[henrymidfields]

At least they should allow shopping between certain chapters where appropriate. Such as Chapter 16, where you're in a big city and can reasonably expect to purchase supplies armaments from the market. Not allowing that is like not allowing, say WWIIAllied troops resupply and recuperate in Amsterdam, or Paris on their way to Berlin.