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The Current Meta Is Perfectly Set Up For Reinhardt Domination


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So, I wanted to start this thread because out of the last 30 arena battles that I've done, the total number of teams that didn't use Reinhardt was.... 2.

That's right. 2. Out of 30.

But, the more I think about it, the less surprising it is. Really, we've built this meta ourselves by hugely emphasizing only one play style. Here's what I mean:

1. Most of the meta is built around maximizing speed and damage output. Reinhardt's brave effect makes this irrelevant.

Right now, the majority of the meta is built around the assumption that if you do the most damage, and can kill your opponents the fastest, nothing else really matters. This is why skills like Fury, Life or Death, and Death Blow have largely become the most popular builds. All of these are useless against Reinhardt. Because of his brave tome, he doesn't give the opponents the ability to actually get a hit in. Unlike a normal battle, in which even a character getting doubled gets one counter hit, Reinhardt doesn't allow counter hits. And his ability to one shot almost any unit makes skills like vantage irrelevant.

2. The most commonly sacrificed stat for builds is resistance.

Looking at the gamepress site for Fire Emblem Heroes, what's the most recommended iv set for each of the top tier heroes?

Ike: +Att -Res

Nowi: +Spd -Res

Ryoma: +Att/Spd -Res

Lucina: +Spd -Res

Julia: +Att/Spd -Res

Ephraim: +Att -Res

Eirika: +Att -Res

Linde: +Att -Res

I only looked at the top 12 or so results, but the only ones that weren't -Res were:

Hector (-spd)

Effie (-spd)

Nino (-def)

Kagero (-def)

Wow. The thing is, following this advice ensures that pretty much all of your units will get one shot by Reinhardt. Even units that otherwise wouldn't be vulnerable to him will just get slaughtered by him. And God help you if you're running life or death 3, with that additional -5 res. 

So, in summary, no one seems to really be playing a defense game, but I've found it to be far, far more effective in this Reinhardt saturated meta.

I've switched out Ryoma for Julia, (would've switched Ike, but I need the bonus for now) and haven't lost a unit since, simply because of her +res allowing her to so effectively tank incoming magic threats, whether it's Reinhardt, Linde, Nino, or Nowi. And between a +def Ike and a +def Hector, I can easily handle physical threats on the ground. I think a more defensive playstyle may be much more appropriate in the current meta.

Thoughts?

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4 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Wow. The thing is, following this advice ensures that pretty much all of your units will get one shot by Reinhardt. Even units that otherwise wouldn't be vulnerable to him will just get slaughtered by him. And God help you if you're running life or death 3, with that additional -5 res.

You do realize that all of those characters except Julia get one-round killed by Reinhardt even if they were +Res. Running -Res doesn't change the match-up against Reinhardt at all for the majority of the characters in the game.

 

7 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

I think a more defensive playstyle may be much more appropriate in the current meta.

No, all you need is a high-Res green unit to bait and kill Reinhardt. His high movement range and ranged attack becomes a disadvantage this way because it makes him easier to bait.

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11 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

 

Thoughts?

DB Rein hits the vast majority of the non-green cast for oodles of damage. When you see people like Ike running -Res, Ike would have taken say, 68 damage vs 76 with -Res. Overkill vs Overoverkill. It's a joke.

 

The -Res helps in a few cases but literally running a Nino/Julia/Cecilia (the latter who's free) takes chump damage from him and decimates him back. The meta revolves around Reinhardt being strong but seriously, good green mages are abundant and easy to create. Rein's incredibly easy to handle by running a decent+ green mage and there's no real reason you shouldn't, as they deal with other common threats like Olwen, Effie, Nowi, Ninian and Ephraim with relative ease.

Edited by Elieson
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5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You do realize that all of those characters except Julia get one-round killed by Reinhardt even if they were +Res. Running -Res doesn't change the match-up against Reinhardt at all for the majority of the characters in the game.

Ephraim, Linde, Nowi, Nino, and Effie will all survive if they do not have -res.

They will all die if they do.

Edit: confirmed for Ephraim Linde and Effie, assuming the damage calculator is right. Need to check for sure on others.

Edit 2: On Neutral Reinhardt, -res Hector survives.

Edited by dragonlordsd
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I don't really see Reinhardt as the problem so much as Res being totally useless on 1 range units. You don't need mage killers, you need good use of baiting and terrain as you set up for player phase one round KOs.

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2 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Ephraim, Linde, Nowi, Nino, Hector, and Effie will all survive if they do not have -res.

They will all die if they do.

Edit: confirmed for Ephraim Linde and Effie, assuming the damage calculator is right. Need to check for sure on others.

Nino, Hector, and Effie aren't included in that statement because they obviously weren't on the -Res list to begin with. I'll give you Nowi as an oversight on my part.

Are you running your calculations using vanilla Reinhardt or standard Reinhardt? Standard Reinhardt has Death Blow 3, which has no trouble killing Fury Ephraim even if he has +Res. Linde only survives if she has both +Res and Fury, which is an unlikely build.

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If you're assuming +Res natures for targets. then we're assuming +Atk nature for Reinhardt

Without a Hone Cavalry bonus, yes you're right

 

With an easy to achieve Hone Cavalry bonus, add 12 damage to all blue encounters. Everything that matters (even with +Res and Fury) dies to Reinhardt.

 

The requirements here aren't high; Ursula's a free unit to rip Death Blow 3 from. Shove that on Reinhardt and run 4* Gunter on your team for free Hone and it's unlikely that your opponents are running +Res units, or units with that many Res-boosting skills (Fortify Cavalry or something like that perhaps). When you obliterate 75% of the meta with a single buff, and hard lose to 10% of it (green mage girls) then there's a super easy counter to a very common threat. Remember Takumi before SI? Rein is the new Takumi. 

 

Rein's incredibly easy to support but not immortal by any means.

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16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Nino, Hector, and Effie aren't included in that statement because they obviously weren't on the -Res list to begin with. I'll give you Nowi as an oversight on my part.

Are you running your calculations using vanilla Reinhardt or standard Reinhardt? Standard Reinhardt has Death Blow 3, which has no trouble killing Fury Ephraim even if he has +Res. Linde only survives if she has both +Res and Fury, which is an unlikely build.

Woo! My Linde is an interesting curiosity! :P:

 

16 minutes ago, Elieson said:

If you're assuming +Res natures for targets. then we're assuming +Atk nature for Reinhardt

Without a Hone Cavalry bonus, yes you're right

 

With an easy to achieve Hone Cavalry bonus, add 12 damage to all blue encounters. Everything that matters (even with +Res and Fury) dies to Reinhardt.

 

The requirements here aren't high; Ursula's a free unit to rip Death Blow 3 from. Shove that on Reinhardt and run 4* Gunter on your team for free Hone and it's unlikely that your opponents are running +Res units, or units with that many Res-boosting skills (Fortify Cavalry or something like that perhaps). When you obliterate 75% of the meta with a single buff, and hard lose to 10% of it (green mage girls) then there's a super easy counter to a very common threat. Remember Takumi before SI? Rein is the new Takumi. 

 

Rein's incredibly easy to support but not immortal by any means.

I'm a little skeptical that people are really gonna wanna put 20k-22k feathers into an Ursula to give Rein DB3, as good as it is. I mean, as much as I like having him around, I certainly wouldn't. Then again, I guess I do have some leeway in that mine's +Atk, so he can afford to get away with DB2 and the Atk Seal. I think I'm okay waiting to see if 4* Klein shows his face (or I get a freak 5* Hawkeye).

Also, Soren can totally face tank Rein, so it's not just a green mage girl thing now (even if he's quite the pretty boy).

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4 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Woo! My Linde is an interesting curiosity! :P:

 

I'm a little skeptical that people are really gonna wanna put 20k-22k feathers into an Ursula to give Rein DB3, as good as it is. I mean, as much as I like having him around, I certainly wouldn't. Then again, I guess I do have some leeway in that mine's +Atk, so he can afford to get away with DB2 and the Atk Seal. I think I'm okay waiting to see if 4* Klein shows his face (or I get a freak 5* Hawkeye).

Also, Soren can totally face tank Rein, so it's not just a green mage girl thing now (even if he's quite the pretty boy).

I'm also super skeptical about that, but I have seen a lot of them running around. I suspect with the ability to get a third Ursula, it might make the prospect more appealing.

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1 hour ago, dragonlordsd said:

Hector (-spd)

I have a -res Hector and I bait every Rein I see with him. Anna gives a spur res 3 if he needs it to survive. Or just put him on a defensive tile.

Because of Rein's range, I find it a bit easier when the opponent has him. He runs off and gets himself killed on the 1st turn.

 

I will admit though, it is really annoying that you absolutely need to have a counter for him on your team. His usage is stupidly high.

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9 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

I have a -res Hector and I bait every Rein I see with him. Anna gives a spur res 3 if he needs it to survive. Or just put him on a defensive tile.

Because of Rein's range, I find it a bit easier when the opponent has him. He runs off and gets himself killed on the 1st turn.

 

I will admit though, it is really annoying that you absolutely need to have a counter for him on your team. His usage is stupidly high.

Yeah, if you're running defensive skills, like spur res, you can definitely spot buff.

the only sword lord that I can think of with really good resistance is lyn. I have a +red one with 32 res. she could almost tank rein.... Except she has such low health.

edit: oh wow. +res Lyn actually can tank a neutral rein. She survives with 3 hp.

Edited by dragonlordsd
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I use Hector. He has 19 Res, so I wouldn't even say your green unit needs much Res as long as they have enough HP. Reinhardt is annoying but perfectly manageable, especially if there are forts around. Having to run Anna as a bonus unit also helps things, since mine still has her default Spur Res 3. I'd like to replace it with a better spur, but it certainly does good work.

This whole discussion prompted me to check my Hector's boon/bane. I'd been pretty sure mine was +Spd, but I always figured he was -Res. Turns out he's actually -Atk but hits so hard I never considered that it might be an issue.

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1 minute ago, dragonlordsd said:

Yeah, if you're running defensive skills, like spur res, you can definitely spot buff.

the only sword lord that I can think of with really good resistance is lyn. I have a +red one with 32 res. she could almost tank rein.... Except she has such low health.

Rein has WTA over Lyn though. She would need a fortify and spur res to even have a shot in hell of surviving Rein.

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3 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

she could almost tank rein....

I wouldn't exactly count taking 28×2 damage from standard Reinhardt "almost tanking". That's enough damage to kill Zephiel, the character with the highest HP in the game, so no other character is going to even come close if taking the same damage.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

I wouldn't exactly count taking 28×2 damage from standard Reinhardt "almost tanking". That's enough damage to kill Zephiel, the character with the highest HP in the game, so no other character is going to even come close if taking the same damage.

Not according to the damage calculator.

https://rocketmo.github.io/feh-damage-calc/

 

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Just now, dragonlordsd said:

Not according to the damage calculator.

https://rocketmo.github.io/feh-damage-calc/

+0 Reinhardt [+Atk] (Dire Thunder, Death Blow 3) has 50 Atk, which becomes 60 effective Atk after weapon triangle advantage. Lyn with 32 Res takes 28×2 damage, and no character in the game naturally has 57 or more HP.

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I recently rolled a Soren and he has a shit nature but since he's bonus I've been using him. Usually I run Nino, but Reinhardt does her job as all-purpose unit remover fine when I have 2 reds dealing with all the greens he doesn't like. 

Turns out even a shit-nature Soren can still lol in the face with Reinhardt. It's pretty nice. Actually my Nino can't tank him because she runs LoD2 (I have a severe Fury deficiency, it's weird, I roll hella 5*s and can't get the fodder I want) so I usually just let him come to me then Nino can oneshot him or something but Soren easily baits him and it's pretty nice. A good gain for this season.

 

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I don't know what to think of this. Reinhardt is a good unit but he's very easily countered by the abundant and rather good green mages. I think he's definitely one of the best units, but I don't think the system is set up to unfairly benefit him. 

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36 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

I have a -res Hector and I bait every Rein I see with him. Anna gives a spur res 3 if he needs it to survive. Or just put him on a defensive tile.

Because of Rein's range, I find it a bit easier when the opponent has him. He runs off and gets himself killed on the 1st turn.

 

I will admit though, it is really annoying that you absolutely need to have a counter for him on your team. His usage is stupidly high.

This is relevant now:

 

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Reinhardt really isn't that threatening on his own though, many green units can deal with him, the problem is when he is supported by a dancer and a second cav mage (such as a second reinhardt), meaning if you bait reinhardt you lose one unit to the second cav mage

I am also considering ditching hector from my team and raise a t-adept gronraven cecilia, Hector just isn't good enough against the blue mages that plague the arena

Edited by Erchamion
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31 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

+0 Reinhardt [+Atk] (Dire Thunder, Death Blow 3) has 50 Atk, which becomes 60 effective Atk after weapon triangle advantage. Lyn with 32 Res takes 28×2 damage, and no character in the game naturally has 57 or more HP.

Did not count death blow, which isn't super common (a little less than half)

Although, in fairness, another quarter will run life or death, so it does even out.

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Pulled a -atk Reinhardt when he was first revealed. Together with my 5* Olivia and Nino they dominate most teams. Pulled a neutral attack rein in the meantime at 4* but I'm not so certain if I should bother a  upgrade and merge since I'm sure everything will change sooner or later. I still have 0 defenses in the last 2 or 3 weeks though... so it seems a lot of people have answers for a Nino/Rein with a dancer.

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