Do you think 8-4 will do localization?

[DaloDask]

Just now, Harvey said:

Even so, that still is under the blame for game design and not localization being the blame. Localization isn't part of game design nor is it the reason why difficulties are removed in certain regions. It is simply the process of bringing the project to various other regions using said region's language as well as trying to make said project appealing to other regions besides the one being marketed at.

Excuse me, what?

This is exactly something you can pin on the localisation. It's right there. Objectively.

I am legitimately having trouble understanding exactly what it is you are trying to say.

This is an alteration made for the localised version of the game that alters the content of the game itself.

Is that not what I was focusing on with the mention of gameplay differences? Is that not something that is an example of my point?

[De Geso]

11 hours ago, Hardin said:

These guys?

Please, the translation being bad is a meme by game journos who are upset that Atlus doesn't care about them. At the end of the day there are issues in every translation, by the way - Fates has plenty, too. The ones in P5 are not "horrible" or "game ruining" by any means.

I'd rather have grammar/spelling errors than altered scripts and removed content, anyway.

Edited May 15, 2017 by YouSquiddinMe

[DaloDask]

3 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Please, the translation being bad is a meme by game journos who are upset that Atlus doesn't care about them. At the end of the day there are issues in every translation, by the way - Fates has plenty, too. The ones in P5 are not "horrible" or "game ruining" by any means.

The-

The page literally talks about your position on the matter and similar ones.

Did you read it?

[De Geso]

5 minutes ago, DaloDask said:

The-

The page literally talks about your position on the matter and similar ones.

Did you read it?

I'm not seeing the part of the page that talks about what I said, lol. But I don't think "he mentioned it" is a good defense against what I'm saying anyway. 

I never claimed that the translation was perfect, anyway - just that the team that did Persona 5 would be better than 8-4 or Treehouse, who are both responsible for bizarre edits and cut content. 

[DaloDask]

Just now, YouSquiddinMe said:

I'm not seeing the part of the page that talks about what I said, lol. But I don't think "he mentioned it" is a good defense against what I'm saying anyway. 

I never claimed that the translation was perfect, anyway - just that the team that did Persona 5 would be better than 8-4 or Treehouse, who are both responsible for bizarre edits and cut content. 

Great to get your position on this. (If I knew enough about their work on P5, I'd probably throw my two cents in, but i don't so I won't)

And the part I'm referring to is the segment near the bottom, the 'Defenses of bad translation' segment.

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, DaloDask said:

Great to get your position on this. (If I knew enough about their work on P5, I'd probably throw my two cents in, but i don't so I won't)

And the part I'm referring to is the segment near the bottom, the 'Defenses of bad translation' segment.

I mean, the section being called "Defenses of Bad Translation" itself kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's basically saying "Unless you're going to say it's okay because translating literally from Japanese to English makes for bad translations, then this game has a bad translation!" I get a very pompous, conceited image of the person who wrote this.

Somethings are absolutely right. The poor grammar in places, poor uses of words, the overuse of common phrases that make people sound mechanical, stuff like that. Those could absolutely be better, but as much as the author of this blog says this shouldn't be a defense, it's bound to happen if you have a handful of people translating thousands of thousands of lines of dialogues, and it's something I doubt very few people would pick up with QA. Things like the guard knowing about the call from the director before it happens is an example where somebody probably should have caught that, and there's really no reason nobody didn't.

But then there's stuff that just seem like they were looking for problems, like picking apart Sojiro's comments for not flowing in a linear fashion. The whole scene happens early in the game, where Sojiro's clearly frustrated at this whole deal. While the statements COULD flow better, and it may in the Japanese version, but a bunch of terse disjointed sentences don't really take away from what the scene is supposed to convey. It comes off as a dude who has a bunch of shit on his mind. The interrogation scene is a bit better of an example, but you're listening to that conversation from the perspective of somebody coming out of a drug stupor. My mind wasn't in the place of "WOW, THIS FUCKING GUY IS JUST SAYING A BUNCH OF LINES THAT DON'T DIRECTLY CONNECT TO ONE ANOTHER, BAD TRANSLATION". From what I can tell, very little is lost in translation with Persona 5, which is pretty outstanding for a super Japanese game. Obviously there are problems with the Japanese-oriented quiz questions in class, and maybe it's just because Persona's done it in the past (And with far less context than Persona 5 tries to give), but I more or less expect knew it was going to be there.

Unless your bottom-line standards are Square Enix and their in-house translations, I find it hard to really say P5 all in all has a "bad" translation, when we get far, far worse, even out of major places like Nintendo. I mean, could it be better? Yes. Is it bad? I don't think so. Obviously it depends on the person (Like this guy here), but again, it really depends on where your standards are.

I would 100% prefer the Persona localization team to handle localization over Treehouse, or even 8-4(Probably).

Edited May 15, 2017 by Slumber

[Harvey]

3 hours ago, DaloDask said:

Excuse me, what?

This is exactly something you can pin on the localisation. It's right there. Objectively.

I am legitimately having trouble understanding exactly what it is you are trying to say.

This is an alteration made for the localised version of the game that alters the content of the game itself.

Is that not what I was focusing on with the mention of gameplay differences? Is that not something that is an example of my point?

You are claiming that localisation should be blamed for the different weapons present in the game or in this case, the reason behind why difficulty tends to be toned down because of focusing other regions.

That really isn't the case. Localisation isn't to be blamed for that. Its game developers who decide to do that inorder to ensure good sales of the region.

Localisation only tends to make slight changes to the content and that's that. 

[Azure Sen]

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

You are claiming that localisation should be blamed for the different weapons present in the game or in this case, the reason behind why difficulty tends to be toned down because of focusing other regions.

That really isn't the case. Localisation isn't to be blamed for that. Its game developers who decide to do that inorder to ensure good sales of the region.

Localisation only tends to make slight changes to the content and that's that. 

Localization is more than able to make changes to gameplay if they wish, and the idea that they aren't is silly considering how many art assets/religious names and themes were changed back in that big period of censorship in the 90s. 

For example, in Radiant Dawn's American localization, three weapons were added for Edward, Leonardo and Nolan, and units needing Master Crowns to promote to third tier was cut although those items still exist in-game if you want to promote a unit to its third tier before lv. 20. These changes were not present in the original Japanese release.

Edited May 15, 2017 by AzureSen

[Hardin]

10 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Please, the translation being bad is a meme by game journos who are upset that Atlus doesn't care about them. At the end of the day there are issues in every translation, by the way - Fates has plenty, too. The ones in P5 are not "horrible" or "game ruining" by any means.

I'd rather have grammar/spelling errors than altered scripts and removed content, anyway.

There is no conspiracy of journalists trying to tarnish Atlus's reputation. When a game is riddled with syntax errors, it's not illegitimate to call it out. A few errors can be forgiven, but when they ask $80 for for such shoddy work it is simply unacceptable. Persona is not above criticism, and I guarantee you that the developers in Japan did not intent for the game to be experienced in that manner. 

[Harvey]

10 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Localization is more than able to make changes to gameplay if they wish, and the idea that they aren't is silly considering how many art assets/religious names and themes were changed back in that big period of censorship in the 90s. 

For example, in Radiant Dawn's American localization, three weapons were added for Edward, Leonardo and Nolan, and units needing Master Crowns to promote to third tier was cut although those items still exist in-game if you want to promote a unit to its third tier before lv. 20. These changes were not present in the original Japanese release.

That is fine but toning down difficulty is not part of localization. Deciding what games can be released in regions is mostly through localizing.

 

[De Geso]

4 hours ago, Hardin said:

There is no conspiracy of journalists trying to tarnish Atlus's reputation. When a game is riddled with syntax errors, it's not illegitimate to call it out. A few errors can be forgiven, but when they ask $80 for for such shoddy work it is simply unacceptable. Persona is not above criticism, and I guarantee you that the developers in Japan did not intent for the game to be experienced in that manner. 

Well, besides a few stiff lines, a lot of the "examples" on the "fan" site there are actually fine in context. Once again, I never once claimed it was perfect, only that it's more ideal than 8-4 or Shithouse.

Also yes, game journalists and neofa- er, neogaf are very much pushing the "Persona 5 was badly localized" thing because it was translated in a way that they don't like.

Also: this.

Edited May 16, 2017 by YouSquiddinMe

[Azure Sen]

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

That is fine but toning down difficulty is not part of localization. Deciding what games can be released in regions is mostly through localizing.

Except it is, because plenty of the localized FE games have had the difficulty lowered in some way.

• FE7 had the evasion bonus granted by thrones and gates reduced, and the effective damage boost on weapons was reduced as was already said. 
• In PoR Maniac was removed and Easy was added in. 
• RD's localization saw battle saves added to Easy and Normal, forge points were removed making the system easier to use, the Master Crown system was reworked to let anyone promote to their third tier classes after leveling up again at 20, raised the HP threshold that Wrath and Resolve triggered at, and raised Edward and Leonardo's base stats to make the Dawn Brigade chapters easier (well, that was presumably the intention, anyway).

Making gameplay changes such as lowering difficulty is part of localization. Granted, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

Edited May 16, 2017 by AzureSen

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Well, besides a few stiff lines, a lot of the "examples" on the "fan" site there are actually fine in context. Once again, I never once claimed it was perfect, only that it's more ideal than 8-4 or Shithouse.

Also yes, game journalists and neofa- er, neogaf are very much pushing the "Persona 5 was badly localized" thing because it was translated in a way that they don't like.

Also: this.

Holy shit, the people behind the "Persona 5 localization was bad" shit are the same people who were at the forefront of defending Fates' localization. 

 

WHAT

[Harvey]

58 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

Except it is, because plenty of the localized FE games have had the difficulty lowered in some way.

• FE7 had the evasion bonus granted by thrones and gates reduced, and the effective damage boost on weapons was reduced as was already said. 
• In PoR Maniac was removed and Easy was added in. 
• RD's localization saw battle saves added to Easy and Normal, forge points were removed making the system easier to use, the Master Crown system was reworked to let anyone promote to their third tier classes after leveling up again at 20, raised the HP threshold that Wrath and Resolve triggered at, and raised Edward and Leonardo's base stats to make the Dawn Brigade chapters easier (well, that was presumably the intention, anyway).

Making gameplay changes such as lowering difficulty is part of localization. Granted, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

 

1. The reason for that happening isn't because of localizing. FE7 was aimed at being the first FE game for the western market. To be certain that the game can be enjoyed for the western market, some changes were made for that reason. So are you trying to imply that the best way to get the most out of the game is playing the Japanese version?

Another theory that I can pin point at is that marketing unlike before was very limited and very little can be done at the time. So each game of specific regions had different modes whatsoever. Nowadays, you don't see that at all and even so, its again, for marketing reasons, not localization being part of it. The aim of localisation is to appeal games to specific regions and making sure the game is appealing to said region. Removing difficulties is not part of localization because otherwise by your logic, Super Mario Bros 2: The lost levels would have been released by changing the difficulty of the game instead of being completely region locked.

2. Again same as 1.

3. Yet none of that matter because according to various reviewers out there, the game is still difficult for even a casual gamer. But Treehouse cannot be blamed for that because that blame goes to IS for making that game for the Wii, a system designed mostly on casual gamers.

Localization by definition means preparation of video game software and hardware for sale in a new region or country. There is no way that Localization team can be part of game development because otherwise by that logic, Bill Trinen should be capable enough to design games then. Localization staff cannot be blamed for change of difficulty modes and instead, game devs have to be blamed for that.

 

EDIT: Also of note, since Nintendo often keeps being secretive about how it works and all , my statements may not be of certain here or can be even agreed upon so we can't say for certain what is what. That and Localization itself isn't in terms of professionalism not very consistent. But still..to blame the localization staff for cutting or changing content is rather bizarre  since that is the point of localization and imo, game devs also have to be blamed for the various changes as well.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Harvey

[Azure Sen]

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

Holy shit, the people behind the "Persona 5 localization was bad" shit are the same people who were at the forefront of defending Fates' localization. 

WHAT

Yeah, this is pretty insane. Anyone who can defend Fates' dumpster fire of a localization (which while I don't agree with all of the criticism of it, it still has a metric ton of issues) and then cherry-pick examples from Persona 5's localization (which is not perfect, but still pretty damn good) to bash Atlus while also showing a pretty poor understanding of localization and the English language and how people talk and divorcing the context from a bunch of those lines to make them seem worse than they are and good god I could go on for a while is someone whose opinions I can't bring myself to take seriously.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

3. Yet none of that matter because according to various reviewers out there, the game is still difficult for even a casual gamer. But Treehouse cannot be blamed for that because that blame goes to IS for making that game for the Wii, a system designed mostly on casual gamers.

The game only seemed harder because the localization changed the names of the difficulties. Japanese Normal is US Easy, Japanese Hard is US Normal, and Japanese Maniac is US Hard.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Localization by definition means preparation of video game software and hardware for sale in a new region or country. There is no way that Localization team can be part of game development because otherwise by that logic, Bill Trinen should be capable enough to design games then. Localization staff cannot be blamed for change of difficulty modes and instead, game devs have to be blamed for that.

Yes, and sometimes that includes changing gamplay elements when it comes to video games. Translating the text isn't the only thing that happens in localization, and Trinen isn't a programmer so I don't know why you brought him up. Nintendo of America employs programmers to handle things like changing gameplay in localization, quality assurance, bug fixing, etc. I really don't know what else to say here. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by AzureSen

[Harvey]

2 hours ago, AzureSen said:

The game only seemed harder because the localization changed the names of the difficulties. Japanese Normal is US Easy, Japanese Hard is US Normal, and Japanese Maniac is US Hard.

Nah..I'm pretty sure that even if that wasn't the case, most players would play normal mode due to battle saves being only locked on that mode unless they are skilled enough to play the game.

2 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Yes, and sometimes that includes changing gamplay elements when it comes to video games.

Gameplay elements as in what? Art assets? Censorship? 

 

2 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Trinen isn't a programmer so I don't know why you brought him up.

Because he works under the localization team still even though he's now a senior manager at treehouse and he has a lot of experience working as a game tester and whatnot. So you saying that the localization is blamed for gameplay changes is downright unfair.

2 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Nintendo of America employs programmers to handle things like changing gameplay in localization, quality assurance, bug fixing, etc. I really don't know what else to say here. 

How come you know of this? Because in many cases, NoA oddly doesn't censor things that are left present in most of their games. And while NoA generally localizes games for the western market, not every single game that they are in charge of marketing to the west is guaranteed to be censored.  Like Dickson smoking not being censored for instance..and this is btw partly a Nintendo based game called Xenoblade Chronicles.

We don't know how corporates work but we do know that there's a lot going on during pre-production, production and marketing and localization shouldn't be wholly blamed for that because its downright unfair to do so not because its bashing thousands of workers doing their job but also because of their involvement not being certain.

 

[Hardin]

7 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Well, besides a few stiff lines, a lot of the "examples" on the "fan" site there are actually fine in context. Once again, I never once claimed it was perfect, only that it's more ideal than 8-4 or Shithouse.

Also yes, game journalists and neofa- er, neogaf are very much pushing the "Persona 5 was badly localized" thing because it was translated in a way that they don't like.

Also: this.

No, it really isn't fine in context. This is a product sold by a large company staffed by professionals, not a couple guys creating a translation patch for free in their spare time. I really don't care if you like the game or not, but don't feed me this nonsense about it being a more ideal localization. This isn't a question of things being removed because they are controversial in the overseas market, this just sub par writing on their part. 

[De Geso]

1 hour ago, Hardin said:

No, it really isn't fine in context. This is a product sold by a large company staffed by professionals, not a couple guys creating a translation patch for free in their spare time. I really don't care if you like the game or not, but don't feed me this nonsense about it being a more ideal localization. This isn't a question of things being removed because they are controversial in the overseas market, this just sub par writing on their part. 

"It really isn't fine in context"

I was referring to the lines themselves being fine in the context of the game. Reading comprehension. 

It is a more ideal localization because I would rather there be some stiff, too-literally translated lines than complete re-writing of dialogue to put in memes and outright removal of content, how can you even compare them? 

[DaloDask]

21 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

"It really isn't fine in context"

I was referring to the lines themselves being fine in the context of the game. Reading comprehension. 

It is a more ideal localization because I would rather there be some stiff, too-literally translated lines than complete re-writing of dialogue to put in memes and outright removal of content, how can you even compare them? 

Both are bad, but for very different reasons.

P5's could be said to be bad because people fucked up. A lot. Like an absurd amount. An amount that seems distinctly difficult to comprehend. There's no intent behind these fuck-ups, it just so happened that somebody dun goofed in the translation. And then the guy who went over it fucked up. And potentially it went through several other people until it ended up in the game, somehow.

Fates' could be said to be bad because of how it blatantly alters the information presented to the player in a way that seems disrespectful to both the original writers and the audience, as if they didn't believe the original script translated faithfully would have been fine. In this case, there is a clear intent behind these alterations, to make the script more palatable to the western audience, even if it means ruining the context, tone or intent behind scenes in the process.

P5 has that page with all the grammatical errors, and Fates has shit like that whole mess involving Soleil, with all 10 of her supports with male characters having been altered, Corrin with the change everybody knows about, 8 having the S supports changed from romantic to platonic, and her support with Forrest being rewritten from the ground up.

Sorry if it feels like I'm interjecting, because I kind of am, but both are bad for different reasons, and your opinion on those reasons is what makes certain localisation teams more pleasant to think about.

You're right about not being able to compare them, but not for the immediate reasons.

Edited May 16, 2017 by DaloDask

[De Geso]

18 minutes ago, DaloDask said:

Both are bad, but for very different reasons.

P5's could be said to be bad because people fucked up. A lot. Like an absurd amount. An amount that seems distinctly difficult to comprehend. There's no intent behind these fuck-ups, it just so happened that somebody dun goofed in the translation. And then the guy who went over it fucked up. And potentially it went through several other people until it ended up in the game, somehow.

Fates' is bad because of how it blatantly alters the information presented to the player in a way that seems disrespectful to both the original writers and the audience, as if they didn't believe the original script translated faithfully would have been fine. In this case, there is a clear intent behind these alterations, to make the script more palatable to the western audience, even if it means ruining the context, tone or intent behind scenes in the process.

P5 has that page with all the grammatical errors, and Fates has shit like that whole mess involving Soleil, with all 10 of her supports with male characters having been altered, Corrin with the change everybody knows about, 8 having the S supports changed from romantic to platonic, and her support with Forrest being rewritten from the ground up.

Sorry if it feels like I'm interjecting, because I kind of am, but both are bad for different reasons, and your opinion on those reasons is what makes certain localisation teams more pleasant to think about.

You're right about not being able to compare them, but not for the immediate reasons.

I just find that P5's errors are blown out of proportion, and many people seem to share that sentiment. A lot of the "bad lines" on that page are actually not that bad - or even not bad at all - in the context of the events of the game. There are certainly some "oh that's directly translated" moments but they are more seldom than that "fansite" would have you believe. (I use "fansite" in quotes because I am suspicious of the nature of the people who made that page to begin with). 

[Hardin]

I guess we just fundamentally disagree on the role of localization. 

[Harvey]

On 5/17/2017 at 8:55 AM, Hardin said:

I guess we just fundamentally disagree on the role of localization. 

If you ask me, compared to all localizers out there, Treehouse is the most adequate. Sure, they censor stuff here and there but that's to be expected because even if they didn't do it, NoA themselves would have done it. But as far as localization goes, they are the best of the writers out there. I don't know about you but to me, I never faced any grudges on their localization.

Also of note, simply saying that 8-4 should localize the game instead of Treehouse has a chance of some treehouse staffs under pressure of losing their jobs here.

 

[AmericanBuizel]

On 5/14/2017 at 5:32 PM, Blade Lord Lyn said:

I REALLY hope so Treehouse doesn't fit this genre of games at all (I'm definitely expecting worse from Xenoblade 2 so import is likely for me)

You do realize it was 8-4 that localized Xenoblade X, right? 

EDIT: Also, I'm enjoying the controversy that is this thread :3 

Edited May 18, 2017 by AmericanBuizel

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

1 hour ago, AmericanBuizel said:

You do realize it was 8-4 that localized Xenoblade X, right? 

EDIT: Also, I'm enjoying the controversy that is this thread :3 

So? That was good also try to reply early and not super late where your being irrelevant also you have a bad rep for starting trouble so I'm just only gonna reply to this only once.....

[AmericanBuizel]

How can I reply when I just logged on not too long ago? Also, when did I get such a bad rep? lmao 

EDIT: I meant to say "reply early"

Edited May 18, 2017 by AmericanBuizel
I forgot to add a detail