Should classic mode still be a thing for FE?

[Gradivus.]

41 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Again, I understand the point of classic mode as I said earlier.

You do not seem to fully understand it. On Casual mode, you can kill off all the units you bring to a map (minus the lord) and play on as usual. That's far too easy for players seeking a challenge and therefore Classic is needed.

Your argument that it's frustrating is subjective because other players might be willing to retry if they didn't play well enough, and so is the "long... long maps" part because map length varies depending on how the maps are designed, and it can be compensated by giving the player the chance to save mid-chapter (has been done well in the DS games). None of what you said warrants removing Classic.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Gradivus.

[NekoKnight]

The only reason I'm okay with using the time reversal thing in SoV is because the game can be too tedious to replay.

[ping]

@topic: Yes, of course. It doesn't subtract anything from the gaming experience for players on Casual mode whatsoever, just as there is no reason why Casual and even Phoenix mode should bother a Classic mode player.

17 minutes ago, Nightmayre said:

For me, I'd prefer something in-between. No automatic revives or units reviving after chapter, BUT have some limited ways during the game of reviving fallen allies. But also, no saving during chapters. This would be my go-to play mode, if I got to pick-and-choose.

Heh, it's the exact opposite for me. :D I'd keep permadeath but include limited battle saves, either the way the DS games did it or allowing the player to save up to 2 or 3 times during the fight, maybe even dependant on how large the map is (like, most gaidens in FE12 are so short that they don't need any battle saves).

Edited May 18, 2017 by ping
I good English speak, really... -.-

[Nightmayre]

I was thinking more like -

A certain number of times during the story, you visit some special place during a certain event, that allows you to revive a fallen ally. This cannot be used retroactively - if at that point in time you have not yet any dead allies, you cannot revisit them.

Another / additional possibility, is an item that allows the revival of a fallen ally, non-purchasable, with the appropriate difficulty in obtaining, possibly requiring to go way out of your way in a chapter and face an optional boss or something to obtain.

Overall I'd say that in a game with the length and curve of the GBA games which I've played the most, I'd allow something like 5 revivals total, 3 scripted - 2 item-based. Maybe less for the hard modes.

[Extrasolar]

43 minutes ago, Thran Starcrod said:

You either weren't around during the time awakening was announced or you're choosing to forget it. Both sides were not happy at the time and even during the fates era, I saw a lot of people saying they wanted Casual Mode removed. The arguments were always, "This is dumbing down the series."

I've been "around" since Blazing Blade. Sure, there are always people that complain at everything, no matter what. There were people that complained that Sacred Stones was "dumbing down the series" because it was easier than Blazing Blade. Not to mention, with the release of the 3DS titles, those people multiplied. I'm talking about the non-elitists, here. You know, the average FE fan that most people here on SF are. People that didn't feel threatened by an optional mode that just makes the series more accessible to non-veterans.

[dragonlordsd]

Yes.

Look, I'm not going to complain about anyone adding anything to Fire Emblem. Casual mode, Phoenix mode, throw in whatever you want. It doesn't matter since I won't play them anyway.

Just don't ever take anything away and we'll be good.

[L9999]

46 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Then there's the problem where many players have to play chapters with long....long maps without save states on classic mode.

No, there is not. People who play Classic Mode know what is at stake and play around it, you know, a strategy, what FE games are about. If you can't deal with long maps in classic without save states it is not my problem. 

7 minutes ago, Nightmayre said:

I was thinking more like -

A certain number of times during the story, you visit some special place during a certain event, that allows you to revive a fallen ally. This cannot be used retroactively - if at that point in time you have not yet any dead allies, you cannot revisit them.

Another / additional possibility, is an item that allows the revival of a fallen ally, non-purchasable, with the appropriate difficulty in obtaining, possibly requiring to go way out of your way in a chapter and face an optional boss or something to obtain.

Overall I'd say that in a game with the length and curve of the GBA games which I've played the most, I'd allow something like 5 revivals total, 3 scripted - 2 item-based. Maybe less for the hard modes.

Why looking for the 5th leg on a cat when you could play carefully and avoid casualties? Casual Mode was invented for those looking for the 5th leg on a cat.

[Harvey]

59 minutes ago, Gradivus. said:

You do not seem to fully understand it. On Casual mode, you can kill off all the units you bring to a map (minus the lord) and play on as usual. That's far too easy for players seeking a challenge and therefore Classic is needed.

Your argument that it's frustrating is subjective because other players might be willing to retry if they didn't play well enough, and so is the "long... long maps" part because map length varies depending on how the maps are designed, and it can be compensated by giving the player the chance to save mid-chapter (has been done well in the DS games). None of what you said warrants removing Classic.

 

10 minutes ago, L9999 said:

No, there is not. People who play Classic Mode know what is at stake and play around it, you know, a strategy, what FE games are about. If you can't deal with long maps in classic without save states it is not my problem. 

I have no issues if classic mode is there and I agree that classic mode has challenge to it and the main thing at that. But as much as I want to try out classic in Conquest, I simply just can't because of how hard the game already is on normal and I just simply can't find the time to beat those maps.

I can play FE7 and FE13 classic no problem...FE6 well maybe not but still. I have no issues with classic mode whatsoever and I wish Nintendo keeps these modes for as long as the IP stays relevant. But seeing as how Heroes skipped permadeath, I'm just wondering if it really does add up anymore.

 

[shadowofchaos]

So... the reason you're even bringing up the subject of "is it even relevant anymore" is because you yourself don't enjoy it on certain games?

 

Come on, dude.

Of course they'd skip it on heroes until there is a dedicated mode for it for those specific stages.

WOULD I REALLY KEEP PLAYING A GAME WHERE I COULD LOSE 5 STAR UNITS I SPENT 80 BUCKS ON?

Edited May 18, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Nobody]

the day classic mode is gone from fire emblem is the day i stop playing fire emblem

13 minutes ago, Harvey said:

But as much as I want to try out classic in Conquest, I simply just can't because of how hard the game already is on normal and I just simply can't find the time to beat those maps.

that's just you. For me, Lunatic/Classic is the perfect difficulty on Conquest. There are people who are better at the game than you, and we need those difficulty settings you think are insanely hard.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Nobody

[Harvey]

6 minutes ago, Nobody said:

the day classic mode is gone from fire emblem is the day i stop playing fire emblem

that's just you. For me, Lunatic/Classic is the perfect difficulty on Conquest. There people who are better at the game than you.

Yeah I get that. I'm just saying that...ok forget it, I get the point.

 

[SullyMcGully]

Nope. IS totally needs to get rid of Classic mode. And while we're at it, let's go ahead and have Mario auto-jump and make a Final Fantasy game without Moogles, airships, or people named Cid.

[Nightmayre]

44 minutes ago, L9999 said:

No, there is not. People who play Classic Mode know what is at stake and play around it, you know, a strategy, what FE games are about. If you can't deal with long maps in classic without save states it is not my problem. 

Why looking for the 5th leg on a cat when you could play carefully and avoid casualties? Casual Mode was invented for those looking for the 5th leg on a cat.

Because it may be, circumstantially, good design.

The point is moot for the Sacred Stones. However, in Blazing Blade, there is no grinding available (arena aside). You may find yourself in a situation where completing a map without casualties may be a tall order not because of poor strategy, but because of underlevelled units. That way, a player can still progress while sacrificing a unit that they will be able to revive later - but the limited revivals serve as a warning to better manage his units' growth from there on.

Now granted, you could just replace all that with "casual mode". But my point is that I'd like something in the middle, and for me that middle is something like that. I'm not looking for ways to trivialize content (such as the grinding areas in FE8 or the casual mode of later installments), merely something to alleviate the issue of sometimes having to perform a great number of resets in order to avoid losing a valuable unit.

[DragonLord]

Don't like it? Don't use it. Permadeath defines the series, removing it would be an insult to most FE fans I would think, myself included. The idea of resetting resonates with me, no matter how angry I get when a unit dies. It's that kind of situation that forces me to retry with a different strategy. Casual Mode takes the fun out of it the way I see. I don't exactly understand the question you are posing to be quite honest. If Casual exists, why ruin the fun of people who want Classic by removing it? 

Edited May 18, 2017 by DragonLord

[Slumber]

I would stop playing FE if they removed classic mode.

[Locke087]

I would straight up would boycott the game. No questions asked but I don't care how cool looks I will boycott the game because I would not stand for the removal of an optional thing. This is like if Dark Souls decided that it would be a great idea to release an easy mode and then in the next game get rid of it's hard mode.

There are many people that enjoy classic mode they have literally zero reason remove it. This would be an action to straight up insult their classic fanbase, in fact there are people that are more used to other strategy games like XCOM (which features perma-death) that are now jumping in the Fire Emblem that prefer the permit death modes and higher difficulty removing things like this that are easy and cheap to implement would only lower their sells so they will never do this. I want to repeat this because it is very important they have literally NO financial incentive to remove classic mode they can only lose money. 

In short if this is removed XCOM becomes my new FE and FE is dead to me.

Edit 2: Also I'm not one of those people that always just resets so you can't make that excuse I play semi Iron Man so yes it's removal would make a significant gameplay difference for me. i'm also the type of person that likes to play as efficiently as possible in the boundaries of the game, personal limitations aren't really that fun I hate having to do them and adding even more that I have to do is just an insult. And even if I'm doing a deathless run which I do sometimes having to make up consequences aren't actually real will never have the same effect as the consequences actually being real for me.

Edit:  @Harvey Also the only reason Heroes doesn't have perma-death is because you can pay real money for your characters of course there is no a perma-death in a game where I can buy units with real money and would have no way to get them back other than spending real money or by spending my limited free curreny and getting really lucky! Heroes is also spinoff game so worrying about heroes being a sign of things in future titles is like worrying that Mario Run is going to infect Mario games to make it so the auto jump is on from now on.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Locke087

[L9999]

52 minutes ago, Nightmayre said:

Because it may be, circumstantially, good design.

The point is moot for the Sacred Stones. However, in Blazing Blade, there is no grinding available (arena aside). You may find yourself in a situation where completing a map without casualties may be a tall order not because of poor strategy, but because of underlevelled units. That way, a player can still progress while sacrificing a unit that they will be able to revive later - but the limited revivals serve as a warning to better manage his units' growth from there on.

Now granted, you could just replace all that with "casual mode". But my point is that I'd like something in the middle, and for me that middle is something like that. I'm not looking for ways to trivialize content (such as the grinding areas in FE8 or the casual mode of later installments), merely something to alleviate the issue of sometimes having to perform a great number of resets in order to avoid losing a valuable unit.

The thing you are looking for is "gitgud", there is no middle ground.

[Cute Chao]

I hate my characters dying and always reset the chapter when they do. I play on Classic because, to me, that's Fire Emblem. The punishment for not being able to keep that character alive is that I have to restart the chapter if I want to see them again. On Casual, I wouldn't.

I don't want to play on Casual. That's not Fire Emblem to me because of where I came into the series. I'm glad it's a thing and will argue 'til I'm blue against it being removed, but I do not want to play on anything other than Classic. If you don't like it, don't play it. If you think it's not fair because of big maps or something... well isn't that my choice? Don't concern yourself with it.

Fair?

[Emeraldfox]

I question why I play on Classic when I reset if someone dies, even if a unit I don't like/care for or have no plans on using ends up dying. Yet I still play on Classic, been that way since I first played PoR. To be honest, I wouldn't be upset if IS decided to remove it. But why would they? There is actually no reason for them to do so, same for removing Casual. If anything, features like Mila's Turnwheel or Phoenix mode from Fates seem like one off things that may or may not return.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Emeraldfox

[ping]

3 hours ago, Nightmayre said:

I was thinking more like -

A certain number of times during the story, you visit some special place during a certain event, that allows you to revive a fallen ally. This cannot be used retroactively - if at that point in time you have not yet any dead allies, you cannot revisit them.

Another / additional possibility, is an item that allows the revival of a fallen ally, non-purchasable, with the appropriate difficulty in obtaining, possibly requiring to go way out of your way in a chapter and face an optional boss or something to obtain.

Overall I'd say that in a game with the length and curve of the GBA games which I've played the most, I'd allow something like 5 revivals total, 3 scripted - 2 item-based. Maybe less for the hard modes.

I think if I had to choose between those options, I'd prefer the item-based variant, mostly because I probably wouldn't field a unit that hasn't been active for multiple chapters.

45 minutes ago, L9999 said:

The thing you are looking for is "gitgud", there is no middle ground.

To maximize frustration and tedium potential, I would suggest that the game should not display any calculated stats at all - so no displayed hit, avoid or damage. After all, it's quite possible to do the math in your head, as long as you're gud enough. Hell, the game should only give the player the base stats and the level up procs instead of the current stats, just to make sure that players without a gud memory don't taint the fanbase.

[L9999]

22 minutes ago, ping said:

To maximize frustration and tedium potential, I would suggest that the game should not display any calculated stats at all - so no displayed hit, avoid or damage. After all, it's quite possible to do the math in your head, as long as you're gud enough. Hell, the game should only give the player the base stats and the level up procs instead of the current stats, just to make sure that players without a gud memory don't taint the fanbase.

I think my comment went over your dense head.

[ping]

Then enlighten me, oh master of wit. Because it is true - I was not able to see any kind of sense in your two posts in this topic.

[Skynstein]

6 hours ago, Dengres said:

This sorta feels like a reverse "Should Casual Mode return" thing. And honestly it's the same answer. It's not a forced mode onto you so why get rid of something others enjoy?

 

Also FE12 still had Casual Mode before Awakening.

I see. I thought FE12 had the Avatar but not Casual mode. Thanks. :)

[DragonLord]

3 hours ago, Nightmayre said:

Because it may be, circumstantially, good design.

The point is moot for the Sacred Stones. However, in Blazing Blade, there is no grinding available (arena aside). You may find yourself in a situation where completing a map without casualties may be a tall order not because of poor strategy, but because of underlevelled units. That way, a player can still progress while sacrificing a unit that they will be able to revive later - but the limited revivals serve as a warning to better manage his units' growth from there on.

Now granted, you could just replace all that with "casual mode". But my point is that I'd like something in the middle, and for me that middle is something like that. I'm not looking for ways to trivialize content (such as the grinding areas in FE8 or the casual mode of later installments), merely something to alleviate the issue of sometimes having to perform a great number of resets in order to avoid losing a valuable unit.

Let's be honest. If you are playing Blazing Blade on any of the Normal Modes and your characters are underleveled, it's probably because you didn't spread the EXP across your units, and that's on you. I started the series with FE6 (I'd argue a more difficult game than FE7) without consulting a guide on strategy, and I had the common sense to make sure none of my units I wanted to use were lagging behind.

Edited May 18, 2017 by DragonLord

[Camus The Dark Knight]

Yes x100

 

It was one of the series' defining things and I was disappointed when they added a casual mode. Removing classic would be a massive slap in the face, plus it's not like you are screwed since you can restart chapters.