There was consideration of a Avatar or MU

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

6 hours ago, shadowofchaos said:

 

Child mechanics added carrying on the legacy of their parents to the narrative.

Conditional coding would be a disaster with the FE13 mechanics in addition to FE4.

FE4 is beloved for having a darker narrative. Adding said mechanics to that is literally insulting the very core, hardcore fanbase that loves that SNES era.

FE12 clearly demonstrated they can't keep the original *AND* pander to self insert players.

No, thank you.

My Unit characters have their place.

FE7? Literally fulfilling the wishes of my past waifu lord self to steal Ninian from Eliwood?

I'm sorry but FUCK THAT IDEA. BURN IT IN THE FIRES OF HELL.

 

Kris in FE12 being shoehorned in was disgusting. Imagine them being able to do more.

If Mark in FE7 was able to talk and actually marry characters, it will inevitably screw up an already established work. Blank slates are hard to write around.

The thought of avatars in past games feels flithy and absolutely disgusts me.

Uh....ok your opinion just keep it to yourself and please don't pursue because no one agrees.....

Edited May 20, 2017 by Blade Lord Lyn

[shadowofchaos]

54 minutes ago, Blade Lord Lyn said:

Uh....ok your opinion just keep it to yourself and please don't pursue because no one agrees.....

So it's "you don't like my opinion, so shut up".

Did you not read other people posts?

"Keep it to yourself". This is a forum.

Man, if you think I'm terrible, go look elsewhere on the internet. I'm a reasonable person when it comes to many subjects on this forum.

 

This is all about discussion. And my opinion, no matter how harsh, I've backed up with legitimate reasons.

At least two people in the last two pages agree that avatars are terrible and detrimental to Fire Emblem stories.

Objectively speaking as a coder, implementing conditionals for the three lords and how they interact with each other and marriage mechanics will literally force dialogue to be even more generic than it already is.

Have you played Eliwood/Hector's mode with the alternate script? The one without Mark? The story does not change. Mark's presence was literally *IRRELEVANT* as soon as Chapter 10.

They could, in a remake... you know... make Lyn actually be relevant in Eliwood's story too? How are they going to do that if they're going to be busy worshipping an avatar character?

 

Alm and Celica could not interact the way they could have in Echoes if there were an avatar there. Alm, as a lord, would have to give up spotlight for the MU. If marriage mechanics were there, it would also subject him to literally be netorare'd if your MU chose to marry Celica.

Do you see why people don't like MU when provided with the concept of a remake? *Especially* with titles like FE4 and FE7?

 

2 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I have to say the continued salt over Kris when he isn't even fucking relevant, even to Katarina to a large extent, once you bench him is starting to get thrown out of proportion.

 

no, I'm not saying they handled him well, nor that they handled him poorly. All he was was a random idiot so that Units like Warren can chunk words at him and have support conversations with someone. And he doesn't take away from Marth almost at all, either. Marth is an actual dynamic character in the remakes with an actual storyarc, and contrary to popular belief most of this comes from 12, not 11. Kris has like... 3 scenes counting Gaiden chapters where he does something relevant? And not "save the entire kingdom" relevant, more like "something pointless Jagen did by himself in FE3 but Jagen has a lot more lines being our exposition drone so we'll let him do it with Jagen" and "convince Katarina to come back to the 7th Platoon". That's the extent of his input if you bench him, unlike Robin and Corrin who literally drive the plot.

FE12 is very much Marth's tale and the fact I regularly talk about it's plot without ONCE even coming to a topic where Kris is relevant to the discussion outside of the prologue chapters and debatably Katarina's recruitment should speak volumes.

 

am I saying bring on the avatars for more remakes?

Outside of maybe Elibe, dear god no. I was worried they'd put an avatar in Echoes and screw up the continuity as it was.

 

But when people say FE12 is trash and should be ignored on account of the most insignificant and quiet avatar (outside of support conversations) in the entire franchise besides the FE7 tactician, it starts to get a little blown out of proportion. Especially with all the character development and defining traits they added to Marth in 12 that people gloss over in their rabbid focus on the avatar.

 

FE12 is designed so that if you bench the avatar, once you get past Katarina's recruitment he becomes wholly irrelevant to the main plot. I don't think this is coincidence; it feels very much like trying to make the avatar close to optional like in FE7.

Am I saying FE12 is bad? No. Is FE12 fun? Yes.

Is Kris bearable? Yes.

Kris being there is bearable. But what if he had marriage mechanics like people suggest? Having more power?

 

Kris's existence retconned Jagen's advisory role. A literal self-insert fantasy. His/her presence and role with the series' icon, Marth.

Their importance apparently being "the forgotten hero of shadow"... their contribution being so worthy of being equal to Marth's heroism.

He isn't relevant if you bench him for your playthrough. But canonically, they are *very* relevant.

Kris is an example of "this is what will happen at least".

Edited May 20, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

54 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

So it's "you don't like my opinion, so shut up".

Did you not read other people posts?

"Keep it to yourself". This is a forum.

Man, if you think I'm terrible, go look elsewhere on the internet. I'm a reasonable person when it comes to many subjects on this forum.

 

This is all about discussion. And my opinion, no matter how harsh, I've backed up with legitimate reasons.

At least two people in the last two pages agree that avatars are terrible and detrimental to Fire Emblem stories.

Objectively speaking as a coder, implementing conditionals for the three lords and how they interact with each other and marriage mechanics will literally force dialogue to be even more generic than it already is.

Have you played Eliwood/Hector's mode with the alternate script? The one without Mark? The story does not change. Mark's presence was literally *IRRELEVANT* as soon as Chapter 10.

They could, in a remake... you know... make Lyn actually be relevant in Eliwood's story too? How are they going to do that if they're going to be busy worshipping an avatar character?

 

Alm and Celica could not interact the way they could have in Echoes if there were an avatar there. Alm, as a lord, would have to give up spotlight for the MU. If marriage mechanics were there, it would also subject him to literally be netorare'd if your MU chose to marry Celica.

Do you see why people don't like MU when provided with the concept of a remake? *Especially* with titles like FE4 and FE7?

 

Am I saying FE12 is bad? No. Is FE12 fun? Yes.

Is Kris bearable? Yes.

Kris being there is bearable. But what if he had marriage mechanics like people suggest? Having more power?

 

Kris's existence retconned Jagen's advisory role. A literal self-insert fantasy. His/her presence and role with the series' icon, Marth.

Their importance apparently being "the forgotten hero of shadow"... their contribution being so worthy of being equal to Marth's heroism.

He isn't relevant if you bench him for your playthrough. But canonically, they are *very* relevant.

Kris is an example of "this is what will happen at least".

He isn't even strictly relevant canonically either.

Malleduses usually aren't that important, Kris barely if EVER does anything without Jagen aside from maybe one instance in the main chapters, and his canonical contributions are the only thing I'm counting- whether he gets benched or not is ambiguous canon/player choice. He's forgotten, in all honesty even in the context of 12 in a vaccume his contributions aren't equal to Marth's- modesty to a fault is just part of Marth's character and that's demonstrated by the ending where he tries to say his friggin nobody tactician was da real MVP. In the context of even NOT having benched him, Marth did a fuckload more than Kris within the canonical context of FE12- Kris barely did a damn thing, much less anything to compare to killing Medeus- unless you, as player, made him kill Gharnef or something.

Jagen's role is still mostly intact. Jagen still serves an advisory role to Marth in the same manner as 3B2, just with Kris shadowing him. I mean, you can argue that's something, but it's not like Jagen was the real MVP of the story to start with.

Most of the implicit romances s/he can get are people that were lone wolves for the most part- with only a handful of exceptions at best. I agree with the sentiment marriage shouldn't be added to remakes, but even then Kris doesn't really butt in to any established pairings aside from only two possible exceptions off the top of my head, one of which is implied to not really stick by other supports and the other of which wasn't part of a CONFIRMED pairing (Catria and Norne, respectively). It definitely could have been worse than it is- but it's not. They could hypothetically make it worse in a future remake- which let me remind you, I AM NOT OF THE POSITION TO ADVOCATE AVATARS IN REMAKES- but FE12 was not that remake to do so.

It really comes across as yet another demonstration of Marth's arguably crippling sense of humility that is an established part of his character in 11/12. Along with his guilt complex and xenonecrophobia (< I think that's a word? It's basically a fear of your loved ones dying). Even with 12 in a vaccume, and even with me actually using the avatar, the avatar comes across as... definitely not contributing much. It comes across more as developing Marth as a character whose humility is very very up there.

and Kris... really doesn't "take away the spotlight" like people suggest. DEFINITELY not to the extent of Kris ruining the plot entirely like some people want to blow this up to be. Marth is still the central character and Kris is, at best, a major NPC-esque character like Nyna or Caeda. Or maybe Elincia in FE9 could be another good example. None of which are main characters. And all of which contribute a lot more to the story than Kris could even dream of doing.

kris is at best a minor unit who got added to the remake, like the BSFE units, as far as the main plot is concerned outside of the Prologue and arguably- ARGUABLY- the next to last gaiden chapter, both of which are new content. The intro might be in reference to either leading the 7th Platoon and implying they helped shoulder the war, or in reference to recruiting Katarina. Either way there's nothing Kris does as cold hard canon that's HE SAVED THE ENTIRE WORLD HES THE OTHER HERO-KING. There's no equivalency to Marth. Like, at all, unless you as the player make him do so, in which case that's on you. He's just like any other unit who also lived on in Legend and helped shoulder the war.

It just semi-irritates me because the insane amount of character development Marth got in 12 made remake!Marth my favorite lord whereas FE3 Marth is close to insufferable (being a very very blatant audience vehicle unlike the remakes), and FE11 Marth isn't anything too special without the interesting context that 12 gives his character in 11- which at best is only semi-implied in 11 by star and savior, rather than being specifically spotlighted by FE12. But people act like Marth's character was ruined and completely miss the additional dialogue, nuances, and character traits that 12 gave Marth for reasons unknown.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[shadowofchaos]

18 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

It just semi-irritates me because the insane amount of character development Marth got in 12 made remake!Marth my favorite lord whereas FE3 Marth is close to insufferable (being a very very blatant audience vehicle unlike the remakes), and FE11 Marth isn't anything too special without the interesting context that 12 gives his character in 11- which at best is only semi-implied in 11 by star and savior, rather than being specifically spotlighted by FE12. But people act like Marth's character was ruined and completely miss the additional dialogue, nuances, and character traits that 12 gave Marth for reasons unknown.

And where did I ever mention that?

FE12's irritation factor (for me personally) is the fact that an established work was rewritten to fit in a character that doesn't enhance the main story at all.

Granted, Kris provided insight more into the side characters because of supports... but there is an art when reworking a narrative (such as Echoes with Berkut and Fernand).

 

As for why the concept of putting MUs in remakes makes my blood boil...

Look at FE7. It has Mark. Cool. It's at a good level.

Now, imagine marriage mechanics with Mark.

 

Imagine what Conquest had with Marx/Xander. He threatened to kill his wife for merely speaking ill of his father. There is such a disconnect between the marriage and narrative. And coding that conditionally is a nightmare so much so that it had to be generic.

Imagine Eliwood, Hector, or Lyn. How many interactions they had with Mark. How much that has to change and be conditionalized for moments of dramatic tension.

Is Mark just going to stand in the background when Eliwood kills Ninian if he had netorare'd Eliwood married Ninian?

 

I'm not saying Avatar characters are inherently bad.

I'm literally engaged because of a game that has the avatar mechanic.

But they have their place. And that place (in my personal opinion) is nowhere near established FE games.

Edited May 20, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

19 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

And where did I ever mention that?

FE12's irritation factor (for me personally) is the fact that an established work was rewritten to fit in a character that doesn't enhance the main story at all.

Granted, Kris provided insight more into the side characters because of supports... but there is an art when reworking a narrative (such as Echoes with Berkut and Fernand).

 

As for why the concept of putting MUs in remakes makes my blood boil...

Look at FE7. It has Mark. Cool. It's at a good level.

Now, imagine marriage mechanics with Mark.

 

Imagine what Conquest had with Marx/Xander. He threatened to kill his wife for merely speaking ill of his father. There is such a disconnect between the marriage and narrative. And coding that conditionally is a nightmare so much so that it had to be generic.

Imagine Eliwood, Hector, or Lyn. How many interactions they had with Mark. How much that has to change and be conditionalized for moments of dramatic tension.

Is Mark just going to stand in the background when Eliwood kills Ninian if he had netorare'd Eliwood married Ninian?

 

I'm not saying Avatar characters are inherently bad.

I'm literally engaged because of a game that has the avatar mechanic.

But they have their place. And that place (in my personal opinion) is nowhere near established FE games.

And like I said.

I agree with you to a large, almost entire, extent.

im advocating AGAINST putting avatars in remakes outside of maybe putting an avatar in 7 WITHOUT giving him proper marriage mechanics in 7 and maybe even without making him a proper unit and just giving the original incarnation of the mechanic more detail.

12 was rewritten to include literally over 30 additional characters- some of which were removed from FE3, some of which were Book 1 exclusive, some of which were NPC only, some of which were BSFE units, and some of which originated in 11- on top of stellar new units like Katarina, whose interplay with Marth enhances the narrative of Marth. It isn't even strictly a rewrite- only a grand total of maybe 4 minor scenes were changed to include Kris- because most of where he's arguably important is in the prologue and Gaiden chapters, which weren't in Book 2 to begin with.

Im not even suggesting Kris was a good idea because Katarina could fulfill the role easily and she's a fully developed character rather than a half developed avatar mouthpiece like Chrom and maybe Azura were- Nor am I saying avatars should be pasted onto Jugdral or Binding Blade.

Im just trying to express I think the level which other people (NOT specifically you, but other people who bring the subject up on this site, Reddit, etc) act like the avatar completely details the plot is both humorous, objectively only true for additional content and thus not derailing the ORIGINAL plot, and irritating because it causes people to act like 3 has a much better character arc for Marth while completely not even realizing or acknowledging Marth's added character depth to 12, which was irrespective of Kris pretty much entirely.

 

i was also always of the opinion that they should not add an avatar to Echoes and had a mild panic when Faye was first spotted before we knew what she was.

FE12 just has a lot more character depth to a lot of people; so much so that Heroes has pretty much nothing to reference aside from things in FE12, and has basically referenced nothing but 12, even with characters like Wrys. Everyone having an aneurism over Kris TO THIS DAY when he really didn't do much of anything aside from provide exposition for side characters who would otherwise be sterotypical Archanean mutes is just silly and that's all my original comment was saying.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Spoiler Alert]

I think it’s completely fair to omit the Avatar for this game.  As people mentioned, Echoes is a remake and I think it would’ve been more work in the long run to implement it.  Still I didn’t know that it was even an option to the developers with Echoes, that's very interesting.

1 hour ago, shadowofchaos said:

As for why the concept of putting MUs in remakes makes my blood boil...

Look at FE7. It has Mark. Cool. It's at a good level.

Now, imagine marriage mechanics with Mark.

Statements like this make my blood boil because it assumes this is what people would want, or what would actually happen, when asking that Mark have an extended role in FE7.  No consideration of a possible middle ground, just straight up lumped together with marriage, children and center stage heroics.  Maybe I'm naive, but it’s one thing to be wary of including player characters where they don’t fit in a remake, but a whole other to jump to the worst possible conclusion because someone brings up the word "avatar/mu".

For future remakes I don't think Avatar's should be added for the sake of things.  Only if it works, which is a pretty broad statement, but that's the shortest way I can sum my feelings.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Spoiler Alert
Forgot a word.

[shadowofchaos]

23 minutes ago, Spoiler Alert said:

Statements like this make my blood boil because it assumes this is what people would want, or what would actually happen, when asking that Mark have an extended role in FE7.  No consideration of a possible middle ground, just straight up lumped together with marriage, children and center stage heroics.  Maybe I'm naive, but it’s one thing to be wary of including player characters where they don’t fit in a remake, but a whole other to jump to the worst possible conclusion because someone brings up the word "avatar/mu".

For future remakes I don't think Avatar's should be added for the sake of things.  Only if it works, which is a pretty broad statement, but that's the shortest way I can sum my feelings.

Did you miss the part where the two people I quoted agreed on this?

15 hours ago, Mikethemaster said:

I wouldnt a avatar in FE4 case since I love the thought of fighting with Sigurd till the end and my child unit taking up the banner and fighting with Seilph and Julia. FE7 remake most likely will have a avatar since well they already had one.

 

Edited May 20, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Tolvir]

9 hours ago, shadowofchaos said:

If Mark in FE7 was able to talk and actually marry characters, it will inevitably screw up an already established work. Blank slates are hard to write around.

 

Mark is already there, all they would need to do is make him a playable character. Just because an avatar shows up doesnt mean instant S Support, Children, and all of that. It wasnt there in FE 12.

While I agree that I wouldnt like to see Avatars in remakes only because it would cause an issue of story telling. Even if the avatar had no role, you would still likely see it through them, not through Alm and Celica like what happened in SoV. But FE7 already has it there. Mark already exists. Making him an actual playable unit would do nothing to the story.

And no, adding an Avatar wouldnt destroy the dark narrative of FE4, Avatar's have been a presence of gaming long before IS tried to implement one. And even in the dark games they are in, they dont destroy the narrative. Diablo is still a dark game even though your character is your avatar. World of Warcraft is still capable of acheiving dark stories even though its an MMO. Literally based on the idea of an Avatar being your character. Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Dark Souls, they all acheive dark stories, hell darker stories than even FE4 just fine with an avatar character. While I agree an Avatar has no place in an FE4 remake, acting like the presence of an Avatar destroys the game's dark story would be naive, and has always been my issue with the complaint of Avatars in FE. We act like its the plague of video games, and doesnt belong anywhere with no regard as to where it was done right.

And seriously, while I can understand the anger, it really kind of makes people pass by your comment as just an angry fan. Your point could of been made a lot better if you wrote it a little more constructively.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Tolvir

[shadowofchaos]

3 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

And seriously, while I can understand the anger, it really kind of makes people pass by your comment as just an angry fan. Your point could of been made a lot better if you wrote it a little more constructively.

Admittedly, I'd agree to this point.

I don't make myself clear that I'm not the kind that means "Avatar = destroy narrative".

FE7 Mark having marriage mechanics is literally the embarrassing rewrite of a teenager with a self insert Sonic OC.

 

 

The MU has no place in an FE4 remake or FE7 is what I was saying.

And judging by the posts of the person around this forum that said "keep it to yourself", it leads me to surmise they want to marry a character in FE7.

3 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

Making him an actual playable unit would do jack to the story.

Except with the alternate script from Eliwood's story on, Mark literally doesn't exist and it almost made the narrative better (subjectively).

Edited May 20, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Spoiler Alert]

32 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Did you miss the part where the two people I quoted agreed on this?

Despite reading most of this thread, yes I did, because I probably interpreted the conversation differently.  Tolvir basically summed up what I saw in his last couple of sentences.  To me the comment I quoted read as a blanket statement so I apologize for the misreading on my part.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Spoiler Alert
Forgot a word again.

[Tolvir]

18 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Admittedly, I'd agree to this point.

I don't make myself clear that I'm not the kind that means "Avatar = destroy narrative".

FE7 Mark having marriage mechanics is literally the embarrassing rewrite of a teenager with a self insert Sonic OC.

 

 

The MU has no place in an FE4 remake or FE7 is what I was saying.

And judging by the posts of the person around this forum that said "keep it to yourself", it leads me to surmise they want to marry a character in FE7.

Except with the alternate script from Eliwood's story on, Mark literally doesn't exist and it almost made the narrative better (subjectively).

I can understand that, as I said I really wouldnt want to see an Avatar in a remake either. Even if they were nonexistant in the story, it still causes the story to be seen from the outside rather from the main characters PoV. That is what has made SoV so special, you see it from Alm and Celica, not anyone else.

My only point with Fe7 is that its already there, but if it was absent from Eliwood then sure, it being absent would be better.

And I think the "Keep it to yourself" comment was made from the fact of how, angry, your post was. To someone who loves Avatar's, it was really aggressive so a little bit of backlash from that is reasonable. I dont exactly agree, but still.

SoV overall has really changed my opinion on Avatars in Fe though. I would rather they stay out of the picture unless IS is willing to jump headfirst into what the rest of the gaming world has been doing for years. If the avatar has to be there, it needs to have dialogue choice to make the character more dynamic and interesting. Give us options of being an asshole, or being chivalrous. Let us make our characters rogue like through dialogue, or maybe like a noble. It needs to be there, otherwise we end up with another Corrin and Robin who are as blank of a slate as you can get, and destroy the story because of it.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Tolvir

[Tryhard]

14 hours ago, Slumber said:

God I hope the Jugdral games don't have Avatars. Those games, much like Gaiden(Of what very little there was of it in the original), are much more personal stories, and adding in Avatars wouldn't do anything but take away from what was already there.

"This is Thracia 776, the story of how Leif builds up a liberation army against one of the most imposing armies on the continent and takes back his rightful throne and succeeds his murdered parents! Oh, and also his friend who everyone loves is there and is responsible for everything."

Same deal with FE4. Not gonna work.

I agree with FE5, but I'm not really opposed to an avatar in a FE4 remake, whether they would take the role of (being like) Oifaye as others have said or a regular soldier. (Minor) Bloodline customisation could also be a possibility that would be interesting. 

That said I don't trust IS to do it well because Kris from FE12 is an example of it not being done well. Several scenes were re-written around sucking My Unit's dick in FE12, which is obviously a no-go. So I would rather they not try.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Tryhard

[shadowofchaos]

5 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

I can understand that, as I said I really wouldnt want to see an Avatar in a remake either. Even if they were nonexistant in the story, it still causes the story to be seen from the outside rather from the main characters PoV. That is what has made SoV so special, you see it from Alm and Celica, not anyone else.

My only point with Fe7 is that its already there, but if it was absent from Eliwood then sure, it being absent would be better.

And I think the "Keep it to yourself" comment was made from the fact of how, angry, your post was. To someone who loves Avatar's, it was really aggressive so a little bit of backlash from that is reasonable. I dont exactly agree, but still.

SoV overall has really changed my opinion on Avatars in Fe though. I would rather they stay out of the picture unless IS is willing to jump headfirst into what the rest of the gaming world has been doing for years. If the avatar has to be there, it needs to have dialogue choice to make the character more dynamic and interesting. Give us options of being an asshole, or being chivalrous. Let us make our characters rogue like through dialogue, or maybe like a noble. It needs to be there, otherwise we end up with another Corrin and Robin who are as blank of a slate as you can get, and destroy the story because of it.

I think people miss the part where I love the concept of the MU in Awakening.

You know, the game that gave me so much more than just a game. You know, this:

I just really don't trust them to pull the quality they need to with an MU character.

Literally Echoes is an example of how amazing and how they can actually suck a player into a narrative and develop their characters. Their forte is not with what they tried with the MU characters. They can't develop their characters as they have shown in FE13 and FE14 that they can't do enough conditional coding to actually make your choices matter for the narrative.

Like they cut an entire "mute script" from Awakening for the English release. That shows they don't have time to do significant branches in dialogue when they're worrying about the other mechanics that comes with an MU character. And it takes away from the narrative.

FE15 was basic in its premise. But it developed that simple premise from FE2 into something the player can resonate with in the perspective of Alm and Celica.

[Tolvir]

5 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I think people miss the part where I love the concept of the MU in Awakening.

You know, the game that gave me so much more than just a game. You know, this:

I just really don't trust them to pull the quality they need to with an MU character.

Literally Echoes is an example of how amazing and how they can actually suck a player into a narrative and develop their characters. Their forte is not with what they tried with the MU characters. They can't develop their characters as they have shown in FE13 and FE14 that they can't do enough conditional coding to actually make your choices matter for the narrative.

Like they cut an entire "mute script" from Awakening for the English release. That shows they don't have time to do significant branches in dialogue when they're worrying about the other mechanics that comes with an MU character. And it takes away from the narrative.

FE15 was basic in its premise. But it developed that simple premise from FE2 into something the player can resonate with in the perspective of Alm and Celica.

I think they could do it now though. They have a lot more focus from Nintendo now, and likely have more funding and a larger team because of it. I think another limitation had to do with the 3DS, but with the Switch, that limitation isn't there.

I think they could do it now. I agree IS before Fates couldn't do that, but Fates, for as much as it was hated, sky rocketed Fire Emblem in Nintendo's eyes. And now we have more funding and larger teams because of it. I would be really curious to see IS at least attempt the concept of it. 

[Magical Glace]

I'm just going to say I am infinitely grateful they decided against including it.

I've always felt kinda sorry for the protagonists who get shoved aside for coddling a MU, and I'm grateful they didn't retroactively do this to Alm and Celica.  FE15's storytelling is much better thus far (I'm at the tail end of Chapter 1 because I'm slow) than any other FE I've played, and I feel including a MU would have ruined that in favor of shilling. 

IS has regained some of my trust when it comes to remakes with FE15, and I hope to whatever god is available they don't lose that trust again.  Hopefully the fact they decided against it this time means they'll continue to be against it in the future.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

37 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Several scenes were re-written around sucking My Unit's dick in FE12

Like 3-4 scenes In the main story. And the only character that really got anything lost in translation at worst was Jagen.

 

kris is probably the best example of an avatar thus far, along with Silent!Robin from Japanese Awakening, because they didn't suck the life out of Marth. Contrary to this, FE12 actually made Marth BETTER WRITTEN than he was in 3B2 and gave him actual character traits and personality. Kris was a nice and mostly irrelevant nobody in Marth's army.

I can see some people arguing this sort of avatar irrelevancy Is a bad thing for new games, but the new games had the consequence of sucking the life out of Chrom and Xander/Ryoma/Azura to at least some extent. FE12 is probably the best main protagonist in an avatar game because he comes out a character with many more layers and much more depth than he was in FE3, same with Alm and Celica in Echoes. Most of this is unfortunately confined to the prologue, Gaiden chapters, and support conversations, but it still is a point that stands.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Tryhard]

45 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Like 3-4 scenes In the main story. And the only character that really got anything lost in translation at worst was Jagen.

Firstly, they have a not unsubstantial prologue and gaiden chapters added that solely center around them.

Secondly, the majority of supports in the game are with them, there are few supports between other characters.

The game basically presents My Unit as the secondary protagonist (and honestly, in some respects the primary protagonist) straight from the introduction (where it states "the other protagonist of the War of Heroes", "Marth's confidant and friend", etc). And the worst part is that they still manage to not move past 'a loyal knight who is BFFs with Marth' despite spending a lot of time on them.

For example, Marth was the one to suggest to take Adria Pass in Chapter 17. In FE12, My Unit does, when it makes no real sense why this changed, especially for someone that is apparently ignorant about the world. There is other strange things such as Elice's conversation essentially ripping the piss out of Marth to My Unit.

I really like FE12 but the focus on My Unit in that game is bad.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Tryhard

[Koumal8]

11 hours ago, Mikethemaster said:

Damn you sound an like an vetrens who doesn't let casual fan just have fun. ?

Don't put words into my mouth. Casual fans can enjoy the games however they want to, and for your information I love Corrin gameplaywise and I freely admit that Fates would be much more boring without them. Doesn't mean I don't have the right be be more than suspicious about the addition of an avatar in FE4: he has NO place there. Oifey and Lewyn in both gens, Shanan, heck even Cuan must know something about war, it's full of possible capable tacticians. And I repeat: what happens if your avatar marries say Aideen? Lana inherits Aideen's staves, okay, your son/daughter inherits your items and Lester... oh yeah he gets jack shit. Also Alec, Noish and comapny REALLY need another overpowered unit to overshadow them and compete with them for the decent gear.

5 hours ago, Blade Lord Lyn said:

Uh....ok your opinion just keep it to yourself and please don't pursue because no one agrees.....

Well, I agree, and I know I'm not the only one one. Surprised?

 

Also, about Chris: it's been a wile since I last finished FE11/12, but wasn't the general consensus that FE11 gave Marth some much needed development by making him a stronger character and by showing his evolution from angsty and vengeance-driven teenager to reliable and mature king while FE12 suddenly presents him as a wimp for no reason (see Elice's conversation with Chris in the prologue)?

[Jedi]

4 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Firstly, they have a not unsubstantial prologue and gaiden chapters added that solely center around them.

Secondly, the majority of supports in the game are with them, there are few supports between other characters.

The game basically presents My Unit as the secondary protagonist (and honestly, in some respects the primary protagonist) straight from the introduction (where it states "the other protagonist of the War of Heroes", "Marth's confidant and friend", etc). And the worst part is that they still manage to not move past 'a loyal knight who is BFFs with Marth' despite spending a lot of time on them.

For example, Marth was the one to suggest to take Adria Pass in Chapter 17. In FE12, My Unit does, when it makes no real sense why this changed, especially for someone that is apparently ignorant about the world. There is other strange things such as Elice's conversation essentially ripping the piss out of Marth to My Unit.

I really like FE12 but the focus on My Unit in that game is bad.

Oh the one where she literally calls him a naive child? Yeah thats really irritating.

[maybe]

50 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Firstly, they have a not unsubstantial prologue and gaiden chapters added that solely center around them.

Secondly, the majority of supports in the game are with them, there are few supports between other characters.

The game basically presents My Unit as the secondary protagonist (and honestly, in some respects the primary protagonist) straight from the introduction (where it states "the other protagonist of the War of Heroes", "Marth's confidant and friend", etc). And the worst part is that they still manage to not move past 'a loyal knight who is BFFs with Marth' despite spending a lot of time on them.

For example, Marth was the one to suggest to take Adria Pass in Chapter 17. In FE12, My Unit does, when it makes no real sense why this changed, especially for someone that is apparently ignorant about the world. There is other strange things such as Elice's conversation essentially ripping the piss out of Marth to My Unit.

I really like FE12 but the focus on My Unit in that game is bad.

honestly while the part about most of the supports being with the avatar bothers me a lot, part of what really bothered me is how much it sort of shit on pretty much all the development marth got in FE11

i thought that conversation with Elice is a super bad one in particular because not only does Elice call marth a "weak, vulnerable child", she also says

"Most people realize this and can come to terms with that reality. But Marth cannot do that... He truly thinks that he can save everyone. In war, losing just one companion is unbearable for him... He suppresses his feelings with all his willpower, but I know that inside, his heart breaks and bleeds..."

like, if marth really still thinks that, what the hell was the point of the sacrifice in shadow dragon? the entire point of that scene was very obviously supposed to show that marth has to learn that sacrifices have to be made at times, regardless of his feelings. but this conversation pretty much serves to say "nah bitch marth didn't learn anything from that". unless marth just suddenly became a wimp in the past few years

even though I think some of the changes to FE3 are pretty dumb, FE12 bothers me a lot more as a sequel than a remake. it added a lot to FE3 that I can appreciate, and I enjoyed a lot of the new support conversations that didn't include the avatar, but I feel like the characters in the story were so much less engaging here, and chris was definitely a big part of the reason for that

[Medeus]

I'm glad they decided against it, I didn't like how Kris was done in FE12 (especially in regards to Marth) and I don't think narratively they would've fit into how Gaiden/Echoes works as a story. I think playing it safe and keeping the focus on Alm and Celica was for the better here, and hopefully that will be kept with future remakes where the narrative doesn't' benefit from having an Avatar character inserted in.

[Mikethemaster]

2 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

Don't put words into my mouth. Casual fans can enjoy the games however they want to, and for your information I love Corrin gameplaywise and I freely admit that Fates would be much more boring without them. Doesn't mean I don't have the right be be more than suspicious about the addition of an avatar in FE4: he has NO place there. Oifey and Lewyn in both gens, Shanan, heck even Cuan must know something about war, it's full of possible capable tacticians. And I repeat: what happens if your avatar marries say Aideen? Lana inherits Aideen's staves, okay, your son/daughter inherits your items and Lester... oh yeah he gets jack shit. Also Alec, Noish and comapny REALLY need another overpowered unit to overshadow them and compete with them for the decent gear.

Well, I agree, and I know I'm not the only one one. Surprised?

 

Also, about Chris: it's been a wile since I last finished FE11/12, but wasn't the general consensus that FE11 gave Marth some much needed development by making him a stronger character and by showing his evolution from angsty and vengeance-driven teenager to reliable and mature king while FE12 suddenly presents him as a wimp for no reason (see Elice's conversation with Chris in the prologue)?

I didnt put word in your mouth you were the one who was bad mouthing the MU being in the game You know they can make it that the holy weapons  chose their owners right. if your casual fan happy for you but you know there are people who like that mechanic the Avatar. It like I said seem some fans in the fanbase just hate the MU in FE but probably love having it in a different game, I see that as hypocritical in a way.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Mikethemaster

[Ae†her]

What's the point when you're going to only be limited to a Caucasian and/or light-skinned Asian looking dude or girl, with crap hairstyles. The dude will either be lean or brolic, and the female will just be fit.

[Koumal8]

16 minutes ago, Mikethemaster said:

I idnt put word in your mouth you were the one who was bad mouthing the MU being in the game You know they can make it that the holy weapons  chose their owners right. if your casual fan happy for you but you know there are people who like that mechanic the Avatar. It like I said seem some fans in the fanbase just hate the MU in FE but probably love having it in a different game, I see that as hypocritical in a way.

Who the hell is talking about holy weapons here?! Seriously, I was talking about basic item inheritance between three children and two parents. Also the fact that I love pizza doesn't mean I dip it into my freaking bean soup: it just doesn't work, it doesn't belong there! Old FE games were NOT conceived together with the idea of a marry-all-most-likely-overpowered MU in mind. Let's take another example: FE7. Let's say you start playing as a female avatar and marry Matthew. Then the Leila scene happens. Now I really wanna see IS handling THAT in the right way! It doesn't mean that all FE games are like that though: I can see a MU being added to FE9 for example. Ike is so popular there's no way IS will have the avatar overtake him, the game is pretty easy as is and due to how the epilogue is structured I can see the avatar not being able to marry anyone and just chilling with the Greil mercs at the end of the game. 

[Mikethemaster]

44 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

Who the hell is talking about holy weapons here?! Seriously, I was talking about basic item inheritance between three children and two parents. Also the fact that I love pizza doesn't mean I dip it into my freaking bean soup: it just doesn't work, it doesn't belong there! Old FE games were NOT conceived together with the idea of a marry-all-most-likely-overpowered MU in mind. Let's take another example: FE7. Let's say you start playing as a female avatar and marry Matthew. Then the Leila scene happens. Now I really wanna see IS handling THAT in the right way! It doesn't mean that all FE games are like that though: I can see a MU being added to FE9 for example. Ike is so popular there's no way IS will have the avatar overtake him, the game is pretty easy as is and due to how the epilogue is structured I can see the avatar not being able to marry anyone and just chilling with the Greil mercs at the end of the game. 

Dude I don't know to much of the fe 4 story or mechanic I just know there are holy weapons and incest along with a cool story. now they can make it were certain character supports cant be acess until a certain point in the story. I know a bit from the an gba hack of fe4 too. like Certain pairing like Marth x Caeda, Sigurd x Deirdre or Celica x Alm and some support cast like Grey X Clair they can't work around but others you can. I guess Ninnan kind of hard one too since love Eliwood, but so did Sumia with Chrom but you could still marry her. Now I love the avatar feature for different reasons but the primary reason is because I love being a part of the story with the cast of character it make it more immersive for me.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Mikethemaster