Brave Sword + brash assault vs. Hector?

[Frontiersmann]

I am wondering about combat order of operations and a few different skills.

Let's say that you have Cain with the following loadout:

W: Brave Sword +

Supp: flexible 

Special: flexible (escutcheon, moonbow)

A: flexible (Defiant Def 3 / Triangle Adept 3 / Armored Blow 3 / Death Blow 3)

B: Brash Assault 3

C: flexible (Threaten Def 3 / Hone or Fortify Cavalry)

Versus Hector:

W: Armads 

Supp: Pivot

Special: Bonfire

A: distant counter 

B: Vantage 3

C: flexible 

Cain has 50% HP or less, so Brash assault will proc. Are the following scenarios correct?

If Hector has full HP. 1. Cain hits twice. 2. Hector hits once. 3. (Bonfire is now charged) Cain hits twice more in follow up. 4. If Hector is alive, he follows up with Bonfire. 

If Hector has 75% HP or less. 1. Hector hits. If Bonfire is charged, could kill and end combat. 2. Cain hits four times in a row (2 regular, 2 follow up). Bonfire is charged. 3. Hector follows up if his speed is high enough. 

 

 

 

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

That looks right to me.

[Anacybele]

Honestly, the best physical Hector counter I've found is Axebreaker Hammer+ Freddy. He one-rounds him every time and can definitely take a hit if need be. Otherwise, I bet plenty of magic takes this guy out.

[Clogon]

1 hour ago, Frontiersmann said:

If Hector has 75% HP or less. 1. Hector hits. If Bonfire is charged, could kill and end combat. 2. Cain hits four times in a row (2 regular, 2 follow up). Bonfire is charged. 3. Hector follows up if his speed is high enough. 

Unless you are using Desperation, the attack order will always alternate. It will go Hector, Cain, Hector, Cain.

[Othin]

It sounds like a big question is what order follow-up attacks happen in if both characters have follow-up attacks and Vantage is in effect? That's an interesting question, and I've never heard of people looking into that. Since people seem to be giving different ideas, has anyone tested that or found reports from testing it?

[Bartozio]

9 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Honestly, the best physical Hector counter I've found is Axebreaker Hammer+ Freddy. He one-rounds him every time and can definitely take a hit if need be. Otherwise, I bet plenty of magic takes this guy out.

If we're just talking about countering Hector, vanilla Selena does it better since she takes less damage from Hector (+atk Hector does 1  damage to neutral Selena). Still, I feel most decent red units can win a 1v1 with Hector (at least my M!Corrin, Ryoma, Ike and Roy never had problems with him), so he's not that much of a threat.

Not sure about the vantage attack order, but the rest should be right btw.

[Anacybele]

1 hour ago, Bartozio said:

If we're just talking about countering Hector, vanilla Selena does it better since she takes less damage from Hector (+atk Hector does 1  damage to neutral Selena). Still, I feel most decent red units can win a 1v1 with Hector (at least my M!Corrin, Ryoma, Ike and Roy never had problems with him), so he's not that much of a threat.

Not sure about the vantage attack order, but the rest should be right btw.

Except my Freddy's taken ZERO damage from him half the time. Though that's probably from being +def, having Armored Blow, and getting def boosts all the time from a few of my other units who have Spur Def and such.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Anacybele

[Hawk King]

11 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Honestly, the best physical Hector counter I've found is Axebreaker Hammer+ Freddy. He one-rounds him every time and can definitely take a hit if need be. Otherwise, I bet plenty of magic takes this guy out.

1 hour ago, Bartozio said:

If we're just talking about countering Hector, vanilla Selena does it better since she takes less damage from Hector (+atk Hector does 1  damage to neutral Selena). Still, I feel most decent red units can win a 1v1 with Hector (at least my M!Corrin, Ryoma, Ike and Roy never had problems with him), so he's not that much of a threat.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the TCs question. He is asking about gameplay mechanics. Hector and Cain are just used as examples. He could have picked literally any brave user with Brash assault for the attacker. And an unit with Vantage for the defender.

 

13 hours ago, Frontiersmann said:

Cain has 50% HP or less, so Brash assault will proc. Are the following scenarios correct?

If Hector has full HP. 1. Cain hits twice. 2. Hector hits once. 3. (Bonfire is now charged) Cain hits twice more in follow up. 4. If Hector is alive, he follows up with Bonfire. 

If Hector has 75% HP or less. 1. Hector hits. If Bonfire is charged, could kill and end combat. 2. Cain hits four times in a row (2 regular, 2 follow up). Bonfire is charged. 3. Hector follows up if his speed is high enough. 

That should be how it goes. I believe Vantage just moves the defending unit's 1st attack to the top priority. Everything else should happen in it's normal order after that.

[Anacybele]

Just now, Hawk King said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with the TCs question. He is asking about gameplay mechanics. Hector and Cain are just used as examples. He could have picked literally any brave user with Brash assault for the attacker. And an unit with Vantage for the defender.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood the thread's intention then. I thought we were talking about Hector counters in general.

[Quintessence]

14 hours ago, Frontiersmann said:

I am wondering about combat order of operations and a few different skills.

Let's say that you have Cain with the following loadout:

W: Brave Sword +

Supp: flexible 

Special: flexible (escutcheon, moonbow)

A: flexible (Defiant Def 3 / Triangle Adept 3 / Armored Blow 3 / Death Blow 3)

B: Brash Assault 3

C: flexible (Threaten Def 3 / Hone or Fortify Cavalry)

Versus Hector:

W: Armads 

Supp: Pivot

Special: Bonfire

A: distant counter 

B: Vantage 3

C: flexible 

Cain has 50% HP or less, so Brash assault will proc. Are the following scenarios correct?

If Hector has full HP. 1. Cain hits twice. 2. Hector hits once. 3. (Bonfire is now charged) Cain hits twice more in follow up. 4. If Hector is alive, he follows up with Bonfire. 

If Hector has 75% HP or less. 1. Hector hits. If Bonfire is charged, could kill and end combat. 2. Cain hits four times in a row (2 regular, 2 follow up). Bonfire is charged. 3. Hector follows up if his speed is high enough. 

 

 

 

Scenario 1 is ok. Scenario 2 is:

1. Hector triggers Vantage. Hector hits

2. Cain attacks (brave effect)

3. Follow up for whoever has high spd to double (cain can have higher spd or axebreaker or hector can have higher spd)

= EDIT =

Whoops I missed the brash assault part. Scenario 2 should be ok.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Quintessence

[dragonlordsd]

16 hours ago, Frontiersmann said:

I am wondering about combat order of operations and a few different skills.

Let's say that you have Cain with the following loadout:

W: Brave Sword +

Supp: flexible 

Special: flexible (escutcheon, moonbow)

A: flexible (Defiant Def 3 / Triangle Adept 3 / Armored Blow 3 / Death Blow 3)

B: Brash Assault 3

C: flexible (Threaten Def 3 / Hone or Fortify Cavalry)

Versus Hector:

W: Armads 

Supp: Pivot

Special: Bonfire

A: distant counter 

B: Vantage 3

C: flexible 

Cain has 50% HP or less, so Brash assault will proc. Are the following scenarios correct?

If Hector has full HP. 1. Cain hits twice. 2. Hector hits once. 3. (Bonfire is now charged) Cain hits twice more in follow up. 4. If Hector is alive, he follows up with Bonfire. 

If Hector has 75% HP or less. 1. Hector hits. If Bonfire is charged, could kill and end combat. 2. Cain hits four times in a row (2 regular, 2 follow up). Bonfire is charged. 3. Hector follows up if his speed is high enough. 

 

 

 

https://rocketmo.github.io/feh-damage-calc/

This is the best tool for this kind of thing.

You can set up multiple rounds of combat and calculate exactly how each bit of damage will work.

[Silith13]

Armourslayer+ Hana oneshots him with about 20 damage to spare.

[Clogon]

13 hours ago, Othin said:

It sounds like a big question is what order follow-up attacks happen in if both characters have follow-up attacks and Vantage is in effect? That's an interesting question, and I've never heard of people looking into that. Since people seem to be giving different ideas, has anyone tested that or found reports from testing it?

I literally told you how it will happen. Attacks ALWAYS alternate unless Desperation is in play.

 

2 hours ago, Quintessence said:

Whoops I missed the brash assault part. Scenario 2 should be ok.

No, it is not. Desperation is the only skill that will allow a unit to do a follow-up attack immediately after their normal attack.

[Othin]

22 minutes ago, Clogon said:

I literally told you how it will happen. Attacks ALWAYS alternate unless Desperation is in play.

You said one thing, another person said another thing. That's why I asked if anyone had seen it tested to confirm that that still applies with Vantage. Have you?

[Frontiersmann]

If I had to restate the question, yeah, it would be "how does combat order of operations work when both units get follow up attacks and vantage is in play?"

Normally it would be...

Attacker primary>Defender primary (the "counter")>Attacker Follow up>Defender Follow up. 

With Vantage there are two possibilities:

1. Defender primary (the "counter")>Attacker primary>attacker follow up>Defender follow up. 

2. Defender primary (the "counter")>Attacker primary>defender follow up>Attacker follow up. 

Both possibilities seem intuitive to me.

On the one hand, where a defender is eligible for a follow up, an attacker generally doesn't get to follow up immediately after their primary attack. On the other hand, defenders generally don't get to follow up before their attacker. I never stopped to consider whether Vantage moves not only the counter, but the follow up forward in the stack as well. 

That RocketMo.github calculator suggests that vantage only moves the first attack forward. Cain would hit 4x in a row. I found another calculator that said the same thing. That said, I have no idea how these calculators were made. If they're done by deconstructing the game's code, that's confirmation enough for me. But failing that I'd like to know it works before I dump a bunch of SP into a Brave+ Brash assault user. My first impression of Brash assault was not good. But in a survivable unit (High Armor, Armored Blow, Defiant Defense, escutcheon, pavise, threaten Atk, Triangle adept, or any combination of these), I'm thinking now that the potential for a guaranteed follow up attack, even if the unit is very slow, could be quite handy. Like a breaker skill except it hits anything that can counter, rather than a single weapon type. And if vantage only moves the Defender's first attack forward, it would not make brash assault any less useful.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Frontiersmann

[LordFrigid]

58 minutes ago, Frontiersmann said:

If I had to restate the question, yeah, it would be "how does combat order of operations work when both units get follow up attacks and vantage is in play?"

Normally it would be...

Attacker primary>Defender primary (the "counter")>Attacker Follow up>Defender Follow up. 

With Vantage there are two possibilities:

1. Defender primary (the "counter")>Attacker primary>attacker follow up>Defender follow up. 

2. Defender primary (the "counter")>Attacker primary>defender follow up>Attacker follow up. 

My assumption is that the 2nd possibility is how it goes. Also...

58 minutes ago, Frontiersmann said:

That RocketMo.github calculator suggests that vantage only moves the first attack forward. Cain would hit 4x in a row.

I usually don't use that one, but I'm not seeing that (spoiler below). Maybe you forgot to bump up Hector's Spd to the level where he could actually double Cain?

Spoiler

I can try testing it, actually. Merric with a Hone Atk buff vs Valaskjálf might do the trick...at least, it puts Bruno at exactly half. idk what his survivability looks like when starting at 30% hp though lol.

Edited May 21, 2017 by LordFrigid

[Frontiersmann]

Ah, yup. Forgot to up Hector's speed. That changed it in both calculators. 

[LordFrigid]

10 minutes ago, Frontiersmann said:

Ah, yup. Forgot to up Hector's speed. That changed it in both calculators. 

Cool. Also, it took a little more skill manipulating than I initially suspected, but Merric vs Bruno confirms that attack order for Brash Assault (Attacker) vs Vantage (Defender) is indeed Defender → Attacker → Defender → Attacker. Luckily I just happened to have exactly what I needed to test that lol.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by LordFrigid

[Frontiersmann]

6 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Sorry, I must have misunderstood the thread's intention then. I thought we were talking about Hector counters in general.

As a side note, I am interested in Hector counters. 

I just pulled Ryoma and Linde, and I got Hector in the hero fest. So given enough time I ought to have a pretty good Arena team. I don't know if it's because of Ryoma's natures (-Spd +Res) or what, but he seems very fragile and Hector remains my biggest obstacle. 

Until recently I've been running Sanaki as a check to Hector, but she's -Atk so the rest of the team has to pump the gas a little (rally/Hone/spur Atk) to score a OHKO. 

[LordFrigid]

How hard of a counter are you looking for? Hector's Atk is sky high, so he'll be taking a chunk out of most people you send at him, even a red. High Def greens will live, but need some serious firepower to KO before the (probably) inherited Bonfire smacks them.

Ryoma should be able to do the job, unless you're also having him fight off the rest of the enemy team (if you are...maybe a slow-charging special would do the job?). Triangle Adept + Quick Riposte Adult Tiki is the hardest counter I have personal experience using - she'll take 0 damage outside of Hectors with buffs/auras/merges, and 2HKOs on the counter. She doesn't have as much Player Phase as Ryoma though, unless Bonfire is charged.

[Anacybele]

53 minutes ago, Frontiersmann said:

As a side note, I am interested in Hector counters.

Ah, mkay, then my idea of Axebreaker hammer Freddy still works. :) Especially if he's +def and also running Armored Blow like I've got. Hectors generally don't even scratch my Freddy! Or, a +atk Freddy with Death Blow will also one-round Hector, but he'll probably take slightly more damage in return.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Anacybele

[Kiran]

1 hour ago, Frontiersmann said:

As a side note, I am interested in Hector counters. 

I just pulled Ryoma and Linde, and I got Hector in the hero fest. So given enough time I ought to have a pretty good Arena team. I don't know if it's because of Ryoma's natures (-Spd +Res) or what, but he seems very fragile and Hector remains my biggest obstacle. 

Until recently I've been running Sanaki as a check to Hector, but she's -Atk so the rest of the team has to pump the gas a little (rally/Hone/spur Atk) to score a OHKO. 

Just slap Ryoma with a Fury and he should be able to ORKO Hector while taking 12 damage in return, though you'll need a atk buff to kill off some varients like +hp or +def (or just use moonbow on Ryoma like I do). I use Ryoma as my Hector counter and he works great. Fury will also offset you spd bane which will help Ryoma out a lot. He likes to double. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Kiran

[Frontiersmann]

41 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

Cool. Also, it took a little more skill manipulating than I initially suspected, but Merric vs Bruno confirms that attack order for Brash Assault (Attacker) vs Vantage (Defender) is indeed Defender → Attacker → Defender → Attacker. Luckily I just happened to have exactly what I needed to test that lol.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Thank you Lordfrigid! That looks like it took quite a bit of thought and planning. 

Alas, poor merrick! I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest! 

...

To brash, or not to brash? That is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageously named spells, or take arms against Bruno, And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep no more; and by a sleep, to say we end.

[eclipse]

Any competent red melee unit should be able to take out Hector.  That includes Olivia with a Ruby Sword.

As for the ORIGINAL question, the attacks alternate, unless it's an offensive Brave weapon or Desperation.  My source is a bunch of melee with Hector - my swordie would attack once, Hector would counter, then I'd get the second attack in.

[Clogon]

14 hours ago, Othin said:

You said one thing, another person said another thing. That's why I asked if anyone had seen it tested to confirm that that still applies with Vantage. Have you?

Yes and like I said, without Desperation, attacks always alternate. Many others have tested this a long time ago. I am surprised no one documented it. :/

Edited May 22, 2017 by Clogon