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How are these units bad/good again?


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I played Binding Blade again as some of you know and I've used Lillina and Bartre and I don't get as how people claim that these units are bad. Bartre was able to sweep out a good chunk of units in chapter 14 as well as 21.

In my playthrough in chapter 21, her avoid is so high that she practically soloed all those wyvern riders. And of all the units that I got, She was the only one that gave high damage to Zephiel if you don't use legendary weapons at him. Even Roy can't damage him enough with the binding blade. Though I'm not sure of this since in the end I got EXP as E rank.

And how is Miready good again? Compared to Percival, she doesn't do as well as I thought that she would and she can only be a threat if using a killer lance.

 

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11 minutes ago, Harvey said:

I played Binding Blade again as some of you know and I've used Lillina and Bartre and I don't get as how people claim that these units are bad. Bartre was able to sweep out a good chunk of units in chapter 14 as well as 21.

In my playthrough in chapter 21, her avoid is so high that she practically soloed all those wyvern riders. And of all the units that I got, She was the only one that gave high damage to Zephiel if you don't use legendary weapons at him. Even Roy can't damage him enough with the binding blade. Though I'm not sure of this since in the end I got EXP as E rank.

And how is Miready good again? Compared to Percival, she doesn't do as well as I thought that she would and she can only be a threat if using a killer lance.

 

Bartre is more "Echidna's route is more cost efficient" 

He can bow things pretty solidly, and take huge chunks out of Armors so I wouldn't call him bad. Lilina just needs tons of babying and Miledy is just good from the moment she shows up and promotes.

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5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Lilina just needs tons of babying

But chapter 7 & 8 allow her to catch up and its easy for her to get trained I don't get this at all. She is the best sage you get and while her staff rank can never go to even C, she doesn't need a mend to fully heal your units. I can atleast understand Nino because she unlike Lillina comes extremely late in the game and comes at a time that's pointless to train her since you get units that are as good as she is and she comes in the near endgame era and this is only worth if you like Nino as a character.

Lillina on the other hand..again I don't get why people find her bad. Maybe I guess I have to play hard mode and see for it myself i guess

Also who other unit besides her can use the Forblaze and is capable enough to use it as well as not lose speed over it?

14 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

I am not sure who you mean with Miready.

Guinivere's retainer...

 

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11 minutes ago, Harvey said:

But chapter 7 & 8 allow her to catch up and its easy for her to get trained I don't get this at all. She is the best sage you get and while her staff rank can never go to even C, she doesn't need a mend to fully heal your units. I can atleast understand Nino because she unlike Lillina comes extremely late in the game and comes at a time that's pointless to train her since you get units that are as good as she is and she comes in the near endgame era and this is only worth if you like Nino as a character.

Erm, she ain't available in chapter 7... And honestly, if she was, I don't think it'd help her case any. As for chapter 8, by the time you get to her, you'd have gone and mowed down most of the enemy units on the map.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Erm, she ain't available in chapter 7... And honestly, if she was, I don't think it'd help her case any.

Oh sorry. I meant 8 and 8X. And why wouldn't it? Earlier the better right?

 

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3 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Oh sorry. I meant 8 and 8X. And why wouldn't it? Earlier the better right?

Because chapter 7 is already hard enough without needing to baby a level 1 unit. And no, earlier isn't necessarily better. Also, see my earlier edit for why Lilina doesn't do much in her join chapter.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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Lilina is very dependent on her speed growth co-operating. She'll inflict and take heavy damage, so the difference between doubling and being doubled is immense.

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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Erm, she ain't available in chapter 7... And honestly, if she was, I don't think it'd help her case any. As for chapter 8, by the time you get to her, you'd have gone and mowed down most of the enemy units on the map.

There is a trick to grinding her in said chapter. Block cath and use Lillina to attack her until Cath has used up all her vulneries. This compensates all the potential EXP you could've gotten from enemy units.

Again, FE6 wants you to think carefully and I found this trick quite helpful.

 

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1 hour ago, Harvey said:

There is a trick to grinding her in said chapter. Block cath and use Lillina to attack her until Cath has used up all her vulneries. This compensates all the potential EXP you could've gotten from enemy units.

Again, FE6 wants you to think carefully and I found this trick quite helpful.

In other words, all of 4 times. Bah. Also, Lilina only has 64 displayed hit, which translates to about a 1 in 4 chance that all she accomplishes is wasting a Thunder use.

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5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

In other words, all of 4 times. Bah. Also, Lilina only has 64 displayed hit, which translates to about a 1 in 4 chance that all she accomplishes is wasting a Thunder use.

You get a skill book in chapter 8 though. So you can use that to fix her skill a bit. and whether she misses or not, she gets exp a whole lot.

Its still worth training her all things considered. I mean, many complain how terrible Sophia is at the start and you need to baby her to get the best out of her. Atleast Lillina is far better than her at the very least since she comes earlier than her and you still have opportunity to train her.

 

Edited by Harvey
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If you have to excessively baby a unit to make him/her not-bad, you're not looking at a good unit.  Her biggest upside IMO is a very fast support with Roy.

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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If you have to excessively baby a unit to make him/her not-bad, you're not looking at a good unit.  Her biggest upside IMO is a very fast support with Roy.

Then by that logic, what about Fir as well since she comes very late with level 1? If there's a trick to grind Fir in said chapter, then there's a trick to grind Lillina as well.

She may not be a good boss killer until late game but she's still worth training if investment is made. Again, the reward is fulfilling. You know, you can just say that "I don't want to use her because I hate to baby her" Rather than simply stating that she's not worth using because of her need to feed kills.

And her supports like Roy are plentiful and each one can give her various bonuses that can benefit her in the long run.

Then again..seeing as how you can't almost use whoever you want in this game, I guess I have to take this with a grain of salt.

 

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2 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Then by that logic, what about Fir as well since she comes very late with level 1? If there's a trick to grind Fir in said chapter, then there's a trick to grind Lillina as well.

She may not be a good boss killer until late game but she's still worth training if investment is made. Again, the reward is fulfilling. You know, you can just say that "I don't want to use her because I hate to baby her" Rather than simply stating that she's not worth using because of her need to feed kills.

And her supports like Roy are plentiful and each one can give her various bonuses that can benefit her in the long run.

Then again..seeing as how you can't almost use whoever you want in this game, I guess I have to take this with a grain of salt.

Apples and oranges. Fir joins during a sword-friendly portion of the game.

As far as her supports are concerned, just how many of them are worth using (besides that lightning speed support with Roy, that is)??? Because a majority of the units she supports suck.

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11 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Apples and oranges. Fir joins during a sword-friendly portion of the game.

As far as her supports are concerned, just how many of them are worth using (besides that lightning speed support with Roy, that is)??? Because a majority of the units she supports suck.

Gonzalez and Astore? The latter of which is the best thief in the entire game?

 

Edited by Harvey
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I always support her with Gonzalez and neither is really bad. Yes she needs babysitting but I still find it much easier with her than with Roy and after promotion she doubles regularly and hit like truck. There is no better anima spellcaster (even if that doesn't say a lot).

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2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Then by that logic, what about Fir as well since she comes very late with level 1? If there's a trick to grind Fir in said chapter, then there's a trick to grind Lillina as well.

As someone who has used Fir in every playthrough exept one until now - she's pretty much the middle of the road as far as units go. Not bad, especially since she can murder like a dozen pirates in her joining chapter and catch up to the rest of the team, but she won't catch up to what Rutger would become if given the same resources as her.

And honestly, on normal mode I'd probably agree that Fir isn't really better than Lilina. It's once again a HM thing: Lilina gets a lot harder to use because she'll often be doubled and/or one-shot if her speed doesn't grow (and she only has a 35% growth in it after all). At the same time, Fir gets HM bonuses, so she's still pretty safe fighting the ch.9 pirates as long as you have some emergency healing ready just in case.

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7 hours ago, Harvey said:

I've used Lillina and Bartre and I don't get as how people claim that these units are bad

Lilina has to be babied by the time she joins, which is why I have her boss abuse (along with Wendy and Oujay) the boss in her join chapter. But she does turn out pretty good, with high mag, and she was part of the team in the final chapter.

I've never used Bartre, but I can only assume he's considered bad is because Echidna is better. And he uses axes, which have bad accuracy in this game (but he can still use bows so...)

Btw, I usually have Lugh and Lilina team up. Lugh for me always turns out speedy but has crap magic, whereas Lilina has high mag but average speed. Hugh is like the middle, with his speed and mag more close to each other. 

 

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

And how is Miready good again? Compared to Percival, she doesn't do as well as I thought that she would and she can only be a threat if using a killer lance.

She starts off with a Steel lance, that sucks, so I give her the more better Iron lance. Also, I as well assumed she would be really great right off the bat, but she will need a few level ups. She also starts off at a higher level, so you could have her arena in the very chapter she joins to get her promoted.

Oh, and she's a flier, so that's useful, and she gets hardmode bonuses.

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Personal experience usually means nothing in this kind of discussions. And while I can't anything about Bartre because I never played his chapter and I don't even know how he plays out, Lilina is considered bad because she's slow (the fact that she was your dodgiest unit is definitely out of the ordinary), fragile and (at least in HM) has to be babied carefully: usually when a unit needs so much to be babied they're considered a bad unit. Lugh needs less babying and is around longer (though his magic IS kinda disappointing).

Miledy is much better in HM than in NM thanks to HM bonuses. She's hard to take down, has amazing base stats for he level, good growths, levels up fast and can easily early-promote to get what is essentially a flying Percival with worse weapon ranks. She does find it difficult at times to double but I would say she's the best recipient of one Speedwing, so...

EDIT: Flee Fleet is right though, Steel Lance sucks for her, give her a better lance as soon as you can, she needs the improved hit rates to accomplish anything (I remember the enemy cavaliers being quite dodgy)

Edited by Koumal8
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11 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

Personal experience usually means nothing in this kind of discussions.

Oh, my bad, then.

But yeah, steel weapons generally suck in this game, so Iron and Silver are better options for improving hit rates (especially iron).

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Ok, now... I may have been a bit harsh, it just means that a unit turning out amazing or worthless is highly dependent on RNG, therefore it is average stats that we should look at when evaluating a unit. As I said his Lilina turning out so dodgy is definitely out of the ordinary: 20/20 Lilina has on average 20 Spd and 23 Lck, so 63 Avd. But that is assuming a Lv 20 promotion (it might be advisable to early promote her in Hard Mode, but I don't know), having reached max level and being equipped with a tome that doesn't weigh her down. At the same 20/20 level (which still seems to me a bit unlikely) Clarine has maxed out Spd and Lck for 80 avo, while Shin and Rutger have 72 avo on NM.

But if you have specific strategies to make something out of less praised units (which are possibly somehow efficient) they're more than welcome! It's mostly because if we're talking casual play then almost everything is fair, almost every unit is good and discussions end up being a bit shallow...

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4 hours ago, Harvey said:

Gonzalez and Astore? The latter of which is the best thief in the entire game?

Gonzales sucks. Badly. He can't hit the broad side of a barn even if his life depended on it. So you only go 1 for 2 there.

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3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Gonzales sucks. Badly. He can't hit the broad side of a barn even if his life depended on it. So you only go 1 for 2 there.

He hits Knights & wyverns, two of the bulkiest enemy types in the game with ease though. 

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35 minutes ago, Jedi said:

He hits Knights & wyverns, two of the bulkiest enemy types in the game with ease though. 

Knights have like next to no evade, so that ain't something to brag about. Being good against wyverns might be better, but it doesn't justify investing in someone who forces you to gamble every time they see combat.

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5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Knights have like next to no evade, so that ain't something to brag about. Being good against wyverns might be better, but it doesn't justify investing in someone who forces you to gamble every time they see combat.

You're gambling almost everytime you see combat in any FE to be fair. Considering it runs on RNG.

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