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How are these units bad/good again?


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4 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

Ok, now... I may have been a bit harsh

Nope, you weren't.

4 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

But if you have specific strategies to make something out of less praised units (which are possibly somehow efficient) they're more than welcome! It's mostly because if we're talking casual play then almost everything is fair, almost every unit is good and discussions end up being a bit shallow...

Well, tbh, I always talk from the perspective of a casual play, so yeah (but I do ditch units I find bad. Like Ward).

 

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The latter of which is the best thief in the entire game?

I thought Chad was the best one, and he comes earlier too. 

 

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Gonzales sucks. Badly. He can't hit the broad side of a barn even if his life depended on it. So you only go 1 for 2 there

At least he has a good speed and strength growth, but otherwise, he sucks at hitting things until he's at like level 20, or promoted, I assume (thankfully RNG abuse makes things more easier).

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Knights have like next to no evade, so that ain't something to brag about. Being good against wyverns might be better, but it doesn't justify investing in someone who forces you to gamble every time they see combat.

Gamble? If any battle you get in became actually dangerous you playing Fire Emblem wrong. 

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17 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I thought Chad was the best one, and he comes earlier too. 

 

Level 20 Averages:

Chad:

HP 32.15  Str 12.5  Skl 12.5  Spd 20 Lck 15.4  Def 6.75 Res  2.85

Astolfo:

HP 34 Str  10.5  Skl 12  Spd 20  Lck 12.5 Def  9  Res 5

Chad is slightly better at dodging, and better at hurting things. But both thieves are weak fighters, and their primary use is stats-free stealing and lockpicking anyhow. Astolfo's concrete durability leads are small too, but they are still more important for thieves than attacking.

Not to mention that Astolfo starts at level 10 and Chad 1, Chad needs a lot more training to be marginally better offensively. Not worth it.

That said, Chad does snag you some good stuff in the chapters before Astolfo joins. Plus FE6 has chest bloat (as in treasure chests) seeing how enemies don't drop stuff for some reason. So in many cases you may consider fielding two thieves instead of one to speed things up. In which case, Cath is the crappiest, and since Chad and Astolfo are the only other two, you'll therefore be fielding both.

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1 hour ago, Tenzen12 said:

Gamble? If any battle you get in became actually dangerous you playing Fire Emblem wrong. 

When I said "gamble" I meant more in the sense that Gonzales misses more than the Imperial Stormtroopers in those Star Wars films.

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1 hour ago, Tenzen12 said:

Touche. He indeed require more pampering than Lilina, but well considering how accurate axes are best you can wish is unit that hit hard when it manage hit...

And with his low skill in combination with axelock, is it any wonder why I think he's awful? Also, he needs a Hero Crest to promote, which DOES NOT HELP.

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But unlike many others he can actually lift axes and let's be honest skill books are lot of less rare than body rings. Being Axe locked means he get quickly S rank as well.

And I don't get what is problem with Hero crest, by time you get Gonzalez on lv.20 both Rutger and Dieck (or Ogier whatever) should be already promoted.

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3 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

But unlike many others he can actually lift axes and let's be honest skill books are lot of less rare than body rings. Being Axe locked means he get quickly S rank as well.

And I don't get what is problem with Hero crest, by time you get Gonzalez on lv.20 both Rutger and Dieck (or Ogier whatever) should be already promoted.

Which isn't as good a thing as you think it is. . . Oh, and on the secret book point, I have news for you - there are only two in the game, and one of those happens to be one that you might not be able to get. And I don't see what that last point about getting S rank is about when this happens to be one of the worst games to be axelocked in.

The problem with Hero Crests is that you only get two before chapter 16, meaning that if I want to use, say, Fir or Oujay alongside those other two, they have to wait until chapter 16.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

I was referring to the support bonuses that she gets from these two units. Astore gives her hit bonuses which can help with her skill problems.

Okay, but at the end of the day, Astolfo's a utility unit, and Gonzales is terrible. And I don't think it says anything good about Lilina if I have to field a terrible unit on her behalf. . . 

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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I said it already, but I'll say it again: Lilina is more powerful but a lot slower than Lugh. She joins later
If you bring her to Ilia, she'll be fine. If you bring her to Sacae, she'll get doubled by all the myrms and nomads.
Since magic is good in this game, she can do her job well.

If she was playable in chapter 7, she couldn't do too much. With her base speed she can't double knights and soldiers. She'd be oneshotted by the dracos as Chad and Ellen.


Batre is like Echidna but with worse weapon types and speed. He's ok in chapter 21 against the dracos, but that's it.


Gonzales hits hard, IF he can hit.
He has 60-70% against lance knights and pegasus knights at best, still pretty bad.
You really do better with swordmasters here.


It's ok to bring Astore, if you have free unit slots left.
By far the best thief and the only one who can take hit(s).


Here is a tierlist of the FE6 characters with detailed explanations. However it only goes for hard mode.

Edited by アリサ ラインフォルト
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48 minutes ago, Harvey said:

I was referring to the support bonuses that she gets from these two units. Astore gives her hit bonuses which can help with her skill problems.

I don't really know how much that helps. Gonzales aside, no one really needs Skill Books so she can have them Also tomes in FE6 are actually quite acurate (Fire having 95 hit and Aircalibur 85), while Roy's support not only gives her the same hit bonus but also nets her more Avo (which she desperately needs). Also I don't know if Astohl is worthy of being deployed in every chapter, his durability sucks.

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@Levant Mir Celestia You are making mountain of molehill. He just need bit babysitting until promotion and decent support (like with Lilina) then poor accuracy of axes stop matter altogether and what is left is 60%+ crit rate with killer axe. As bad as axes are here they still have best might.

Edited by Tenzen12
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17 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

@Levant Mir Celestia You are making mountain of molehill. He just need bit babysitting until promotion and decent support (like with Lilina) then poor accuracy of axes stop matter altogether and what is left is 60%+ crit rate with killer axe. As bad as axes are here they still have best might.

And you are trying to downplay just how much of an inconvenience Gonzales's accuracy woes are. It doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't hit worth a damn. Also, I dunno which of Gonzales's supports can even be classified as "decent" when Lilina is pretty suspect as a unit (and note his affinity doesn't help his hit woes).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The problem with Hero Crests is that you only get two before chapter 16, meaning that if I want to use, say, Fir or Oujay alongside those other two, they have to wait until chapter 16.

I won't bother too much with the accuracy discussion (yes, it's bad; no, it doesn't make Gonzo unusable) because I know that you're very steadfast in your opinion about non-100% chances, but the second Hero Crest really isn't an issue. As soon as you get it, Deke isn't as important as he was in the earlygame, and the other contestants are OK or OK-ish (except Ward, I guess) but it doesn't really make a difference one way or the other if you keep them on your team longterm. There's hardly a reason against using it on whatever character you like or otherwise to just sell it for 1.25 pairs of boots later on.

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I'd rather say that for the most part the existing imbalances become more relevant because of the higher enemy stats. Take Path of Radiance, where almost every unit can become a good or at least decent fighter before endgame: Sure, part of that is because there is no such thing as bad growths in that game, but in a game without an overabundance of bonus XP and enemies that die to a gust of wind, all the underleveled units such as Rolf or Tormod would be a lot less viable than they are now. Heck, even Marcia would probably be a lot less dominant if she couldn't get that initial BEXP infusion. (I wonder if anyone has played Maniac mode without BEXP and can confirm or refute that?)

Anyway, the variance in character viability in FE6 are relatively large, maybe larger than anywhere else except for the DS games. And their weaknesses obviously become a lot more important: Lilina was already frail in NM, but in HM she has to be very careful not to be one-shot. Ward's speed is a big issue in NM, but in HM everyone and their granny will double him (well, that's not true. Soldiers are still slower than everyone's grannies).

So basically, FE6!HM gets even harder if you pick the weaker units and choose to ignore powerhouses such as Marcus, Deke, Rutger and Milady. But really, that's true for every FE game, isn't it? ;) Even Sacred Stones gets a lot harder if you decide that Seth can go to retirement since Amelia will clearly become a much better Paladin than he is. It's just more accentuated in FE6.

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15 minutes ago, ping said:

I'd rather say that for the most part the existing imbalances become more relevant because of the higher enemy stats. Take Path of Radiance, where almost every unit can become a good or at least decent fighter before endgame: Sure, part of that is because there is no such thing as bad growths in that game, but in a game without an overabundance of bonus XP and enemies that die to a gust of wind, all the underleveled units such as Rolf or Tormod would be a lot less viable than they are now. Heck, even Marcia would probably be a lot less dominant if she couldn't get that initial BEXP infusion. (I wonder if anyone has played Maniac mode without BEXP and can confirm or refute that?)

Anyway, the variance in character viability in FE6 are relatively large, maybe larger than anywhere else except for the DS games. And their weaknesses obviously become a lot more important: Lilina was already frail in NM, but in HM she has to be very careful not to be one-shot. Ward's speed is a big issue in NM, but in HM everyone and their granny will double him (well, that's not true. Soldiers are still slower than everyone's grannies).

So basically, FE6!HM gets even harder if you pick the weaker units and choose to ignore powerhouses such as Marcus, Deke, Rutger and Milady. But really, that's true for every FE game, isn't it? ;) Even Sacred Stones gets a lot harder if you decide that Seth can go to retirement since Amelia will clearly become a much better Paladin than he is. It's just more accentuated in FE6.

Except the problem in FE6 is that you don't get units or don't have units that can solo chapters unlike other FE games out there.

FE4: Sigurd can solo the first half of the game. Same goes for Ares as well.

FE7: Ok no...pretty much can work.

FE13: Chrom paired with Robin says it all.

FE14: Ryoma...

Keep in mind that these are coming from the FE games that I've played so far. So with this in mind, where does FE6 have these solo units?

That said, could this be possible that for some reason, FE6 is the most balanced game that has no game breaking issues????

 

 

Edited by Harvey
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Quote

I'm seeing a lot of people here mentioning that said units are worthless on HM. So can I assume that HM has balance issues as a difficulty?

Things you have to keep in mind to rate an unit for HM:

  • higher enemy stats
  • the earlier someone joins, the better
  • FE6's unbalanced weapon system: sword users > axes + lances
  • mounted units can rescue, take + drop
  • stave users are automatically useful in the beginning
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16 hours ago, Harvey said:

Except the problem in FE6 is that you don't get units or don't have units that can solo chapters unlike other FE games out there.

FE4: Sigurd can solo the first half of the game. Same goes for Ares as well.

FE7: Ok no...pretty much can work.

FE13: Chrom paired with Robin says it all.

FE14: Ryoma...

Keep in mind that these are coming from the FE games that I've played so far. So with this in mind, where does FE6 have these solo units?

That said, could this be possible that for some reason, FE6 is the most balanced game that has no game breaking issues????

As far as your question is concerned, no dice, for reasons already mentioned. Whilst FE6 might not have units that can solo chapters, it's still got poor unit balance.

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As someone just did their first fe6 normal mode run, id say the majority of characters seemed fairly usable with some training. The enemies aren't very strong in normal mode and the only pain to train was the first 10 levels of sophia. Gonzales did have as bad as accuracy issues as expected with a secret book and promotion and was hitting enemies with 77+ hit rates on lances. It helps that he's fast enough to double and only needs one hit to one shot most enemies.

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