Act 3: Celica the bigot

[Beelzebub]

Her not telling Alm that she is a princess is a lie of omission, and she lies about her plans to sacrifice herself to her party. She's like Aqua, except the audience already knows her secrets. I just think IS isn't very adept at writing mysterious, magical girls.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

40 minutes ago, Ninferno said:

After all, I think I could give Celica's ending in Act 2 and 3 a pass, but what's even more concerning for me is her Act 4 ending. I don't want to go into spoilers but let me just say that I really dislike it back when I played Gaiden. I have just started Act 4 in SoV now and I really hope they fix it this time around. It was a really unsatisfying climax in Gaiden. I think it might have something to do with the Japanese culture, or at least the game/anime sub-culture where gender equality isn't a thing, where female protags always have to screw up and it always have to ultimately comes down to the male protags to save the day. Take past FE games as example, every time IS wanted to make a female protag, it failed with the female lord either becoming pretty much irrelevant as story progresses along (e.g. Lyn) or screwing up big time (e.g. Micaiah, or as most people tends to think). Eirika may fare a bit better but her adventure when compared with Ephraim's still feels a bit like a sidequest.

Yup, I agree. As much as I like Celica, I disliked what they did with her in Chapter 4. The whole thing feels very nonsensical and forced. Chapter 4 and 5 paint Alm in too good of a light imo, since everyone stops criticizing him despite the fact that his mistakes could have been a source of self-reflection, while Celica just apologizes for everything and loses hope completely.

[Thane]

21 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Yup, I agree. As much as I like Celica, I disliked what they did with her in Chapter 4. The whole thing feels very nonsensical and forced. Chapter 4 and 5 paint Alm in too good of a light imo, since everyone stops criticizing him despite the fact that his mistakes could have been a source of self-reflection, while Celica just apologizes for everything and loses hope completely.

This is one of my major issues with the story as a whole. I expected Alm to be more like his Awakening Einherjar, so that he could be reined in by Celica, and I expected her to act pretty much like she does in Echoes, only to be influenced by Alm's personality in turn. This would make sense within the context of the theme of the story, since it's all about dualities and finding a middle ground between Duma and Mila's ideals.

However, Alm doesn't really need to develop in terms of his personality, and the game treats Celica as being in the wrong. The balance that the game should've strived for with Alm and Celica is nowhere to be found.

[Etrurian emperor]

I'm willing to give Celica some leeway when it comes to her pirate killing because you could argue that killing criminals who loot an enslave people is better then killing soldiers just doing their job.

but other then that I don't think Celica has a leg to stand on. Best thing I can say about it is that she's just worried and that Alm may have triggered some daddy issues, making her irrational.

[Alkaid]

I didn't care for her there either. She had no good reason to flip out on Alm like that. It just felt like they had to give her an out of character moment to cause conflict so the story got steered in the direction they'd planned. It's a shame they did it that way, but at least she does actually apologize for being so irrational later on.

[Namarid]

Yeah Act 2 really made me not like Celica as much. Alm was making making logical arguments and Celica counters by hurling accusations responds...great job. The fact that Alm was talking to her in a polite manner also doesn't look good for her.  In Act 3 she was passable. I'm at Act 4 now hopefully her character improves. 

[shadowofchaos]

Hey, guys. Have you been in a *serious* relationship? Like marriage level? Because those two just acted like a married couple in that scene.

Especially since Alm stepped on her toes without knowing it.

You know. Her father is *DEAD*.

Because logical arguments doesn't work with emotions. Being stubborn with each other is the fastest way to a breakup. Regardless of who is right or wrong, both of you have to say sorry. And they did in a later chapter.

OP, you're a little quick to label a character a bigot.

王になればいい (Become a king then for all I care!) was a completely understandable reaction emotionally, but not logically. This is literally showing she has flaws unlike Corrin/Kamui. You guys wanted this.

 

You also forget, this world is set in two places where their gods are very much an active influence in their lives. Everyone in Sophia is taught to rely on Mila. That everyone and everything will be all right if you rely on her.

Only when Celica reaches her temple does she take things in her own hands. With the resolve that Mycen and Masked Knight make so major in Japanese.

 

As for pacifism part... remember how Sophia's ideals is about them pursuing pleasure and comfort? Their army is only there for necessity. Celica wasn't exactly raised afterward as royalty. She was in a far off island in hiding being taught that Mila and peace is the way.

Edited May 23, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[joshcja]

In all fairness, her argument is still less batshit overemotional crazy than the fucking tearful flyingtacklehugcling on the boy she knew for a short period of time 7 years ago.

[shadowofchaos]

8 minutes ago, joshcja said:

In all fairness, her argument is still less batshit overemotional crazy than the fucking tearful flyingtacklehugcling on the boy she knew for a short period of time 7 years ago.

Wasn't that the point?

In Japanese, Mycen's line was pretty much "Celica can show she can make harsh decisions. What of you, you crying mess of a boy?"

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 hour ago, shadowofchaos said:

Hey, guys. Have you been in a *serious* relationship? Like marriage level? Because those two just acted like a married couple in that scene.

Especially since Alm stepped on her toes without knowing it.

You know. Her father is *DEAD*.

Because logical arguments doesn't work with emotions. Being stubborn with each other is the fastest way to a breakup. Regardless of who is right or wrong, both of you have to say sorry. And they did in a later chapter.

OP, you're a little quick to label a character a bigot.

王になればいい (Become a king then for all I care!) was a completely understandable reaction emotionally, but not logically. This is literally showing she has flaws unlike Corrin/Kamui. You guys wanted this.

 

You also forget, this world is set in two places where their gods are very much an active influence in their lives. Everyone in Sophia is taught to rely on Mila. That everyone and everything will be all right if you rely on her.

Only when Celica reaches her temple does she take things in her own hands. With the resolve that Mycen and Masked Knight make so major in Japanese.

 

As for pacifism part... remember how Sophia's ideals is about them pursuing pleasure and comfort? Their army is only there for necessity. Celica wasn't exactly raised afterward as royalty. She was in a far off island in hiding being taught that Mila and peace is the way.

Does Belinda get mad at you for no reason and then not tell you why she's mad?

[shadowofchaos]

10 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Does Belinda get mad at you for no reason and then not tell you why she's mad?

Yes. This has happened. Because I was stupid and didn't realize what it was until later.

I was literally Alm when I saw that and laughed.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Just now, shadowofchaos said:

Yes. This has happened. Because I was stupid and didn't realize what it was until later.

I was literally Alm when I saw that and laughed.

I love how people dislike Celica for...being too close to real life.

[shadowofchaos]

Just now, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I love how people dislike Celica for...being too close to real life.

Gosh dang it I was editing the post man. Haha.

Anyways, regardless of my personal amusement, investment, or experiences the OP is pretty harsh for calling her a bigot.

Edited May 23, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

3 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Gosh dang it I was editing the post man. Haha.

Anyways, regardless of my personal amusement, investment, or experienced the OP is pretty harsh for calling her a bigot.

Didn't set my profile pic as Kagerou for two years just for show lel

[Namarid]

2 hours ago, shadowofchaos said:

Hey, guys. Have you been in a *serious* relationship? Like marriage level? Because those two just acted like a married couple in that scene.

Especially since Alm stepped on her toes without knowing it.

You know. Her father is *DEAD*.

Because logical arguments doesn't work with emotions. Being stubborn with each other is the fastest way to a breakup. Regardless of who is right or wrong, both of you have to say sorry. And they did in a later chapter.

OP, you're a little quick to label a character a bigot.

王になればいい (Become a king then for all I care!) was a completely understandable reaction emotionally, but not logically. This is literally showing she has flaws unlike Corrin/Kamui. You guys wanted this.

 

You also forget, this world is set in two places where their gods are very much an active influence in their lives. Everyone in Sophia is taught to rely on Mila. That everyone and everything will be all right if you rely on her.

Only when Celica reaches her temple does she take things in her own hands. With the resolve that Mycen and Masked Knight make so major in Japanese.

 

As for pacifism part... remember how Sophia's ideals is about them pursuing pleasure and comfort? Their army is only there for necessity. Celica wasn't exactly raised afterward as royalty. She was in a far off island in hiding being taught that Mila and peace is the way.

I admit you do have a point regarding the marriage comparison. I did consider that the only reason why Alm didn't lash out at her could be because of his feelings for her but I wrongly disregarded that when giving my opinion on the argument. 

I guess my biggest problem with what Celica said is that as a commoner Alm should stay out of the conflict which ,when hearing similar negative views of commoners from Fernand and Berkut, isn't the best look for character.

Another thing is her anger at Alm for saying her father was a bad king. I know that he's dead but it looks hypocritical to dismiss him as your father in the beginning and then later have this desire to defend him for seemingly no reason.

[shadowofchaos]

1 hour ago, Namarid said:

Another thing is her anger at Alm for saying her father was a bad king. I know that he's dead but it looks hypocritical to dismiss him as your father in the beginning and then later have this desire to defend him for seemingly no reason.

Grief from loss of family isn't exactly something that had a written guide to deal with.

I'm sure people who have gone through this can probably describe that better than I can.

In addition to her family issues and royalty, she's kind of in the middle of an emotional mess.

It's a flaw that shows. And that's why you don't like it. That's exactly what makes Celica relatable compared to someone like... say... Kamui/Corrin.

People lash out. It's human.

Am I saying Celica was right/justified? No.

Am I saying it's believable for a human in her shoes to have a thought/emotional process like she did? Yes.

And for goodness sake, I am definitely saying she's not a bigot like the OP says.

Edited May 23, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Sire]

As outsiders, it is easy to run with Alm on his side of the argument. I even sided with Alm as it is clear he cares for Celica while Celica seems rather quick to refocus herself on her mission. However, when looking at it again, Celica does have several reasons for doing what she did.
* * * * *
1. She cares for Alm. That much is apparent during the happy reunion and when she thinks of him.

2. She had a vision where Alm died fighting Rudolf. The fact that she finds out Alm is leading the Deliverance takes its own emotional toll on her as she does not want the vision to come to pass.

3. Alm accidently ends up insulting Celica because he did not know of Celica's true lineage. If Alm knew, he would have apologized immediately (like with that happened when Clair got kidnapped and Alm said Clive was the cause, before learning that the two are siblings).

4. Celica is trained as a Priestess of Mila, and both Duma and Mila serve as the main religions for the Valentia. As Mila does have the power of a Goddess, it makes sense on why she wants to visit the temple and believes that "everything will be okay" as soon as Mila is met and talked with. Also remember that Mila's ideals are that of peace. Fighting should be a last resort or only on the defensive and not used for invading another nation.

5. These are human beings suddenly thrust into a situation. Sure, we can reflect, discuss, and do all of this from an outsider's standpoint easily. However, when put on the spot, there is no knowing what will happen. Things can be said without thinking, emotions can override logic and reason.

6. Imagine this situation: You just had a reunion with the love of your life after many years of being apart. However, things change over time and both parties have responsibilities to uphold. The small time frame where they met one another was still filled with emotional upheaval and does not leave much space for logic and reason. If Alm and Celica had a day or two to think things over and talk to each other again, things theoretically should have gone more smoothly. // At least these two end up getting their happy ending together. There are plenty of real life examples where that does not ever happen. Real life does not have Mila's Turnwheel to fix mistakes or strive for a better outcome.

[Selena4Lyfe]

20 hours ago, FallenVanguard said:

I mean there's never a point in the game where people are actually defending Celica in those instances of hypocrisy, or when she lashes out unfairly. Alm doesn't criticize her per se, but that's because he was just strictly relieved that she's okay.

But Saber and others do criticize some of Celica's more questionable decision making, and eventually, Alm does convince her to drop it. Celica has her strengths but she also has some glaring flaws, which get her into trouble later on.

The same goes for Alm, but his flaws a bit different than hers.

Sounds like elements of a decently written character to me.  I love how Celica's being presented at current.  It'd be insufferable if the (slightly) more saintly of the two protagonists was a blowhard fundamentalist on top of it that was ill-wrong...

 

I think one of the themes in this game is putting too much faith in divinity to solve the problems of one's people.  Sounds like that's the lesson IS is setting up for Celica to learn in this game (I wouldn't know for sure, I'm only wrapping up Act 3).

[NekoKnight]

While I wouldn't say she's a bigot, I thing her outburst is a good enough reason to dislike her in that moment. It's pretty unfortunate characterization for Celica. "Sometimes chicks get mad at you for no reason (or withhold information relevent to their emotional state), just like real life girls, amirite?" Yikes.

Edited May 24, 2017 by NekoKnight

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

While I wouldn't say she's a bigot, I thing her outburst is a good enough reason to dislike her in that moment. It's pretty unfortunate characterization for Celica. "Sometimes chicks get mad at you for no reason (or withhold information relevent to their emotional state), just like real life girls, amirite?" Yikes.

Well, it's a proper flaw in character in my book.

[Doof]

Not only that, it's a character flaw that is actually acknowledged in-game. One of Kilff's base conversations makes mention of this. Made me see that conversation in a different light.

[Nanima]

I wouldn't let Alm of the hook in this argument that easily. It's more than him acciddentally insulting Celica's father and family, his side of the argument dows have significant flaws as well. We are working with the magic of hindsight and knowledge of the genre conventions after all. (Note: I don't know how exactly things work out yet, except that they do and some general ending details) 

Alm being all "we'll just throw out the Empire", when said Empire is a lot more powerful military wise than Zofia does come across as somewhat naive as well. He doesn't seem to grasp the full picture on what the war might entail for Zofia yet. And "We'll drive them back, no more."? Also rests on he assumption that A) Rigel will just stay put after such a humiliating defeat and B) that his own soldiers will just be satisfied with that as well and won't demand vengeance or want to cripple Rigel more effectively after that.

And at that point in time, neither Alm nor Celica can be sure a diplomatic solution is utterly impossible (besides this being a game about war). With Zofia castle, the Deliverance now has an actual platform they can open negotiations on. By convincing Rigel that a continued invasion would be way more trouble than it's worth, they might convince them to turn back in return for a list of concessions. That ain't noble of course, but certainly better than hinging everything on an uncertain war with a militarily superior foe. Looking at it from a historical perspective, that really wouldn't be an unlikely outcome. (Except of course *blah blah* video game *blah blah* story conventions)

Alm overall comes across as pretty single mindedly focused on the war as the solution to all of Zofia's problems. When there is a pretty serious famine and terrors problem that doesn't (appear to) have a connection to the war with Rigel. Celica isn't just going to see what happened to Santa Claus. She is trying to find out what happened to their *existing* patron goddess, the provider of Zofia's plenty. Is her belief that Mila will fix everything naive? Yes. But Alm is ignorant that this is actually a pretty serious issue.

And finally, Celica's "You don't know what it's like to be royalty." isn't just hurt feelings or insulting his position as a commoner. Alm literally doesn't know what being a king entails. It's more than just leading armies and holding speeches. He has no experience with that, so it's fair to call him out when he's just throwing out assumptions. Plus his belief that the succession crisis will just work itself out perfectly is pretty damn naive as well. His hopes rest on the supposed survival of a princess, who is of course completely ready and set on taking the throne over him. While the princess did indeed survive, he had nothing but rumours to go on at that point. And the latter assumption was also pretty shaky, since Celica didn't really want to go back in that moment. Which is why I can somewhat understand why she wanted to keep quiet on that.

Tl;dr Both Alm's and Celica's arguments have some serious holes in them. What the game does with it afterwards is a different matter entirely (one I need to actually look at first) but the core matter has both of them being right about certain things and wrong about others.

[shadowofchaos]

7 hours ago, Nanima said:

but the core matter has both of them being right about certain things and wrong about others.

This is every argument in a serious relationship ever.

This scenario is a lot more realistic with the context in the story than the people in the first page give it credit for.

[Salamud]

12 hours ago, Thane said:

This is one of my major issues with the story as a whole. I expected Alm to be more like his Awakening Einherjar, so that he could be reined in by Celica, and I expected her to act pretty much like she does in Echoes, only to be influenced by Alm's personality in turn. This would make sense within the context of the theme of the story, since it's all about dualities and finding a middle ground between Duma and Mila's ideals.

However, Alm doesn't really need to develop in terms of his personality, and the game treats Celica as being in the wrong. The balance that the game should've strived for with Alm and Celica is nowhere to be found.

An issue here is that Fire Emblem is a game focused on war. Short of Warp, beating maps without slaying enemies isn't really doable. Battle fixes whatever problem is happening in FE more often than not.

Alm might be gung-ho about facing Rigel, but Rudolf and Duma masterminded the war with Berkut egging on Desaix's coup. And he still pursued diplomacy with Rudolf turning him down. 

Alm is never at a point where he questions his life of war. He himself never faces a downpoint of living by the sword. Celica by contrast is the one who gets humbled.

[Selena4Lyfe]

2 hours ago, Salamud said:

An issue here is that Fire Emblem is a game focused on war. Short of Warp, beating maps without slaying enemies isn't really doable. Battle fixes whatever problem is happening in FE more often than not.

Alm might be gung-ho about facing Rigel, but Rudolf and Duma masterminded the war with Berkut egging on Desaix's coup. And he still pursued diplomacy with Rudolf turning him down. 

Alm is never at a point where he questions his life of war. He himself never faces a downpoint of living by the sword. Celica by contrast is the one who gets humbled.

Yeesh.  I guess Alm really is a generic lord, at least in that sense.  Looking forward to breaking past Arc 3 in Celica's route.  Just chill out at the dam, Alm and Co.  I'll get there soon enough...after I figure out how to deal with the FUCKING GARGOYLE HORDES!  (God I love how white-knuckle this game is - I know most don't have that much of an issue with it, but for a greenhorn like me, I'm getting Conquest chills of excitement!)