Act 3: Celica the bigot

[StrifeTheDark152]

Okay, Okay, so I just started act 3, and I've never played Gaiden before, BUT i've played all the other games released in America. 

I'm just shocked. Celica goes from overjoyed to see Alm, to anger that he's here in the first place, then really angry that he's leading the war. Then when he tries to defend himself, she insults him, gets more upset and storms off. I know something like this was needed so we had the Dual Protagonist system employed in Gaiden/Echoes, but it seems so contrived and forced.

Like, when was she a pacifist? like she wants to stop the war without bloodshed, wait what? 

Celica, what about the 100-odd pirated you MURDERED to get here!? you led a small army and RAIDED A PIRATE BASE, so you wanted to be helpful and secure a small part to help the people who raised you and liberate them from their oppressors. sounds like a microcosm of what Alm's doing on his side. and this is fire emblem! you're not gonna just stroll on over to Milla's temple without a fight and magically fix everything. No, she's gotta fight her way there, The map tells me so. otherwise the game would be boring. so what the heck? She just comes off as a judgemental bigot. that scene just comes off like:

"why are you here Alm! you're not supposed to be fighting and leading the war and fighting and killing people!" She says while holding her pirate-blood soaked golden knife in her hand and two cities praising her for murdering the pirates. While Alm is holding his own bloodied sword and has a country praising him for doing the same, but with the rigelians. and she thinks what she's doing is right.

I'm just confused by this. so anyone who shares my views on this, or doesn't, please comment below. If you've played gaiden before I'd love to hear how it went out in that game. but yeah, I literally just started Act 3 and that scene made me so upset that it felt like it ruined Celica for me, who was really growing on me and becoming one of my favorite lords ever.

[property of nuvelle]

I hardly think there's anyone who's actually on Celica's side here. I don't like the "we can talk things out" part of her.

[Radrex92]

1 minute ago, KongDude said:

I hardly think there's anyone who's actually on Celica's side here. I don't like the "we can talk things out" part of her.

Oh yeah because "talking things out" ALWAYS works out in Fire Emblem. I've never seen it fail once!

[StrifeTheDark152]

I think that her wanting to have an accord is fine, but her criticism of alm is... unfounded to say the least, she literally did the same thing as Alm in her opening chapter as she did, and they both actually tried to talk down the bandits, but nooooo.... she didn't do anything wrong. but alm! no he shouldn't be fighting at all. Meanwhile she's murdering the pirate king while he just took back the castle from Desaix

[StrifeTheDark152]

Yep! Talking things out in D&D works, but this is a Square based war tactics game, so like that would work

[SuperIb]

I believe she had it in her head that as long as she reached the temple of Mila everything would be fine and fix itself so there'd be "no need for Alm to go to war" which is why she got upset. I think she overreacted but I understand her reasons. :p

[StrifeTheDark152]

Just now, SuperIb said:

I believe she had it in her head that as long as she reached the temple of Mila everything would be fine and fix itself so there'd be "no need for Alm to go to war" which is why she got upset. I think she overreacted but I understand her reasons. :p

...hmm... so she thought that Mila would magically fix everything if she went, and that Alm should just stay home and make her a sandwich (joking) and not go off to war... I get that. I guess it's just odd how she's so upset at him being in command of the deliverance and doing what he's done so far. I guess it's just being Naive? 

[SuperIb]

1 minute ago, StrifeTheDark152 said:

I guess it's just being Naive? 

Yeah. That's how I see it at least. I mean, she definitely does seem rather naive especially at the beginning of her route. A good example is when she tried to reason with the pirates but Saber told her that there's no point.

[property of nuvelle]

1 hour ago, Radrex92 said:

Oh yeah because "talking things out" ALWAYS works out in Fire Emblem. I've never seen it fail once!

I honestly don't like these types of characters in general. 

[MediocreLee]

6 minutes ago, SuperIb said:

I believe she had it in her head that as long as she reached the temple of Mila everything would be fine and fix itself so there'd be "no need for Alm to go to war" which is why she got upset. I think she overreacted but I understand her reasons. :p

Pretty much this.

I wouldn't say that she's a bigot, but it's more like she doesn't want someone she deeply cares about and someone who she hasn't seen in years to go to war and possibly die.  She definitely overreacted though, there's not doubting that.

[StrifeTheDark152]

Just now, SuperIb said:

Yeah. That's how I see it at least. I mean, she definitely does seem rather naive especially at the beginning of her route. A good example is when she tried to reason with the pirates but Saber told her that there's no point.

...OK, yeah, that's upsetting, she's really cool, and seems quite smart and level headed, but her overreaction was super upsetting. She's a good character and the whole "I won't fight unless I have too" thing was done okay with Erika, her general irritation with Alm is pretty dumb.

 

Just now, KongDude said:

I honestly don't like these types of characters in general. 

meh, They can be written well, the character who dislikes killing can suffer with the mental weight, and don't have to be angsty/whiny, it just seems kinda off from what I've seen

 

1 minute ago, SHSL Ninja said:

Pretty much this.

I wouldn't say that she's a bigot, but it's more like she doesn't want someone she deeply cares about and someone who she hasn't seen in years to go to war and possibly die.  She definitely overreacted though, there's not doubting that.

yeah, also I wanted a catchy forum title XD, but honestly the overreaction was crazy, but there's a reason behind it, I mean she was in tears at seeing him earlier. 

[SuperIb]

1 minute ago, StrifeTheDark152 said:

she's really cool, and seems quite smart and level headed, but her overreaction was super upsetting.

I just finished her side in Act 4 and she does seem to have gotten slightly better. I feel like by Act 5 she'll be a lot better in terms of her naivety. (But we'll see I guess. Still have to get there lol)

[StrifeTheDark152]

Just now, SuperIb said:

I just finished her side in Act 4 and she does seem to have gotten slightly better. I feel like by Act 5 she'll be a lot better in terms of her naivety. (But we'll see I guess. Still have to get there lol)

ok good. It just is really a dumb way to start the dual protag thing, that and the whole map being blocked off by a rockslide, agh, how contrived. 

[DaloDask]

I feel that scene was basically her trying to think up any excuse that she possibly could to stop Alm from going to war because that'd be bad.

Some likely come from a legitimate place, but they are nonetheless rushed excuses to try and immediately get Alm off the warpath because war = death and Alm + death = sad Celica.

It's still a huge case of mood whiplash though. Maybe could've given them a day before the conflict arose so that the whiplash wouldn't be as painful.

[StrifeTheDark152]

Just now, DaloDask said:

I feel that scene was basically her trying to think up any excuse that she possibly could to stop Alm from going to war because that'd be bad.

Some likely come from a legitimate place, but they are nonetheless rushed excuses to try and immediately get Alm off the warpath because war = death and Alm + death = sad Celica.

It's still a huge case of mood whiplash though. Maybe could've given them a day before the conflict arose so that the whiplash wouldn't be as painful.

yes! it's the mood whiplash, it's probably the worst I've seen in a long time...

[Armagon]

It is worth pointing out that Alm kinda did hit a sour spot when he blamed Celica's father, Lima IV. Celica seems to despise her father but not to the point where she won't defend him.

[StrifeTheDark152]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

It is worth pointing out that Alm kinda did hit a sour spot when he blamed Celica's father, Lima IV. Celica seems to despise her father but not to the point where she won't defend him.

true, and she fires back by insulting his position, like all the other nobles, so I count that point even.

also, Gunvolt banner is awesome, that is such a cool game

[Lord_Grima]

Part of her reaction to Alm leading the deliverance and fighting a massive war, is that he does not know her full story. Alm makes a few remarks about King Lima and how bad the past Zofian monarchy was. Celica, being part of that monarchy is upset because Alm doesn't know what it was like. Basically this conversation/argument is "You don't know the full story".

Celica doesn't want a full out war, she still feels responsible for the Zofian people, and she cares about Alm as a friend. So, she wants to find a more peaceful way without innocent lives being lost. 

She decides to fight against the pirates and thieves because she knows it will help her people.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Lord_Grima

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Lack of communication kills relationships, even in Fire Emblem. Chapter 3 and Chapter 4 are partially caused by Celica not telling Alm or her friends about her problems, which just leaves her steaming inside while everyone else is just confused. I don't blame her, though, and I think it's realistic. There definitely are people like that.

Everyone else already said what I wanted to say.

Edited May 23, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[StrifeTheDark152]

hey, thanks peeps, this helped me clear my head on this. she's just a good character and this confused me so  much I just wanted to see what other people think. thanks again.

[Sentinel07]

I think there is one thing you're all forgetting.

Right when her route starts, she has a dream of Alm getting killed at Rudolf's hands. That was probably what put her in a tizzy above all else, because she thought Alm would be on a path that would end in certain death for him.

That plus her naive belief that the Temple of Mila would solve everything.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Sentinel07

[SuperIb]

Just now, Sentinel07 said:

I think there is one thing you're all forgetting.

Right when her route starts, she has a dream of Alm getting killed at Rudolf's hands. That was probably what put her in a tizzy above all else, because she thought Alm would be on a path that would end in certain death for him.

Damn. Forgot all about that. XD

That definitely makes a difference as well lmao.

[StrifeTheDark152]

2 minutes ago, Sentinel07 said:

I think there is one thing you're all forgetting.

Right when her route starts, she has a dream of Alm getting killed at Rudolf's hands. That was probably what put her in a tizzy above all else, because she thought Alm would be on a path that would end in certain death for him.

That plus her naive belief that the Temple of Mila would solve everything.

oh true true, that and that premonition at the start of the game, that's creepy AF... no spoilers but I'm still concerned about that. well...that makes some since.

[FallenVanguard]

I mean there's never a point in the game where people are actually defending Celica in those instances of hypocrisy, or when she lashes out unfairly. Alm doesn't criticize her per se, but that's because he was just strictly relieved that she's okay.

But Saber and others do criticize some of Celica's more questionable decision making, and eventually, Alm does convince her to drop it. Celica has her strengths but she also has some glaring flaws, which get her into trouble later on.

The same goes for Alm, but his flaws a bit different than hers.

[Ninferno]

People could very well react differently due to changing circumstances so I honestly wouldn't call the difference in Celica's actions between the end of Act 2 and Act 3 (which is mostly what people are referring to when they bring up this hypocrisy talk) hypocritical. After she found out what happened in Mila's Temple at the end of Act 3, her original proposed solution is practically crushed, her beliefs collapsed, and she's got to change her stance and take further actions. Whether you view this as "self-contradicting hypocrisy" or "she's finally changing for the better" is of course up to personal judgement. Anyway, had she not changed, people can also call her stubborn.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding a bit defensive but what I'm trying to say is she is put into a tough spot, both emotionally and politically; if you want to understand her you have to consider her angle. Other than that, I can't argue with the fact that the execution in her ending in both Act 2 and 3 isn't perfect and leaves much to be desired. IS might have tried hard in the plot to justify the duel protag gameplay, but it apparently isn't an easy task.

After all, I think I can give Celica's ending in Act 2 and 3 a pass, but what's even more concerning for me is her Act 4 ending. I don't want to go into spoilers but let me just say that I really disliked it back when I played Gaiden. I have just started Act 4 in SoV now and I really hope they fix it this time around. It was an extremely unsatisfying climax in Gaiden. I think it might have something to do with the Japanese culture, or at least the game/anime sub-culture where gender equality isn't a thing, where female protags always have to screw up and it always have to ultimately come down to the male protags to save the day. Take past FE games for examples, every time IS wanted to make a female protag, it failed with the female lord either becoming pretty much irrelevant as story progresses along (e.g. Lyn) or screwing up big time (e.g. Micaiah, or as most people tends to think so). Eirika may fare a little bit better but her adventure when compared to Ephraim's still feels a bit like a sidequest.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Ninferno
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