Should we have high expectations for the Story?

[Harvey]

Ever since atleast after Awakening started, fans in general have criticized FE's stories being very shallow and dull. The same trend happened for Fates as well. 

The problem here is that both games sold well despite the flaws in the stories and we are getting to the point that IS/Nintendo may just ditch out stories in future FE games if people don't seem to care about it anymore but more on the gameplay. So should we really have high expectations for FE stories now at this point?

Let's face it. Nintendo for as far as I can tell has rarely focused on stories in their games. The ones that have good stories are so rare that only few people will remember of this.

I personally will never forget Thousand Year Door and Blazing Blade for their well written stories. But at the same time, its all in the past and at this point, I've come to accept that FE may never have stories that are deep as FE6/7, or even Holy War for that matter...i personally think that it can never happen.

But what about you guys, you think it will happen? You think we should still have expectations for it?

 

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Well first of all, FE6/7 don't have particularly deep stories.

I personally don't have much faith in IS' monkeys at the writing team. They only managed to not screw up Echoes because the story was already pre-written, and the director was strict about being faithful. Honestly, the stuff that IS made up for Echoes that wasn't in Gaiden is a mixed bag.

Hopefully, if they hire an outside writer again like with Fates, they don't shit all over his/her draft again.

[Doof]

For all its worth, I actually liked Awakening's story. Sure, its simple and it has its share of plotholes and unexplained things, but its serviceable and enjoyable for me for what it is. Fates... is really the only time I've ever found myself shaking my head at. If we get confirmation that its the same writer working for this new game, alarm bells are gonna ring inside my head.

[Thane]

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Hopefully, if they hire an outside writer again like with Fates, they don't shit all over his/her draft again.

We have no idea how good the original draft was. The guy was busy, yet crammed out 1500 pages, 500 for each route. You can't substitute quality with quantity, and the guy was only supposed to write around a 10 page first draft, and he ended up giving Intelligent Systems far more than they had asked for, and then I believe he didn't have enough time to oversee the making of the game anyway. The entire process of writing Fates seems to have collapsed on every level.

Also, if memory serves, Kibayashi was the guy who wanted Garoon to be a thing. Maybe it was better in his draft, or maybe he just wanted that plot twist. We can't know the answer to that.

Anyway, I don't have high hopes for the story. Fire Emblem's overarching plots, at least in the games I've played, have all been relatively weak, with the best parts being the character interactions and subplots rather than the main goal of the adventure. While the storytelling has improved considerably in Echoes, the writing is really questionable in a lot of places, and many of the new characters fall absolutely flat on their faces. 

There is a lot of good in Fire Emblem stories as well, don't get me wrong. However, I do want a deviation from the standard formula now; that means no dragons, no evil gods, no sacred blades or holy blood, and no dark mage underlings. I think Fire Emblem has a wonderful potential to tell a truly engaging story, but even though the gameplay might differ quite a bit from installment to installment, the stories remain far too similar in structure.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

We have no idea how good the original draft was. The guy was busy, yet crammed out 1500 pages, 500 for each route. You can't substitute quality with quantity, and the guy was only supposed to write around a 10 page first draft, and he ended up giving Intelligent Systems far more than they had asked for, and then I believe he didn't have enough time to oversee the making of the game anyway. The entire process of writing Fates seems to have collapsed on every level.

Also, if memory serves, Kibayashi was the guy who wanted Garoon to be a thing. Maybe it was better in his draft, or maybe he just wanted that plot twist. We can't know the answer to that.

It was 500 pages in total, not 500 for each route, actually. Still a lot, of course.

I remember the things you said as well, but I don't think slime Garon itself, or really a lot of key plot points, were necessarily bad ideas; the overall execution of Fates was just done very poorly, with Revelation being the best example, and that's what I meant by my statement.

[TheWill]

3 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Well first of all, FE6/7 don't have particularly deep stories.

I personally don't have much faith in IS' monkeys at the writing team. They only managed to not screw up Echoes because the story was already pre-written, and the director was strict about being faithful. Honestly, the stuff that IS made up for Echoes that wasn't in Gaiden is a mixed bag.

Hopefully, if they hire an outside writer again like with Fates, they don't shit all over his/her draft again.

I agree with FE6, the story was incredibly bland. I'd put it somewhere around Awakening-level. I do disagree with the comparison to 7 however, it had quite a lot of interesting plot points although the overarching story was probably not 'deep', I do think it was a solid adventure.

Echoes had better story, characters and dialogue than the other 3DS entries and as you said, some of it was laid out, it was all extremely barebones in Gaiden. I'm genuinely surprised at how much I enjoyed it considering I thought Gaiden was an absolute snoozefest. 

[Thane]

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

It was 500 pages in total, not 500 for each route, actually. Still a lot, of course.

Nope.

Spoiler

Kibayashi

That's right. So I looked into the work I had planned, and the schedule was really crazy, but there were a few things I could push back. And they told me that I only needed to write 10 pages for each of the three storylines.

Maeda

Right. Since he's so busy, I thought we could just ask him to write about ten pages for a plot summary.

Kibayashi

So I thought, "Well, I could do that." Then I started writing the story about the Hoshido family. I ended up using 10 pages on just the beginning. I ended up writing about 500 pages.

Maeda

Right.

Kibayashi

When I create a story, as I write the details, like the character's lines, I start to love the characters and then they take on a life of their own, and the story begins to move on its own. So there was no way I could just write a short plot summary and be done with it.

Iwata

And without lines, the characters won't come to life.

Kibayashi

That's right. So I ended up writing a huge amount and I thought, "Well, this has become quite the task." So I gave them the pages for the first storyline for the Hoshido family and I had to write the same amount for the other two stories. I said, "There's no way I can do that." But then once I got started...I did it.

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Thane

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

Nope.

  Reveal hidden contents

Kibayashi

That's right. So I looked into the work I had planned, and the schedule was really crazy, but there were a few things I could push back. And they told me that I only needed to write 10 pages for each of the three storylines.

Maeda

Right. Since he's so busy, I thought we could just ask him to write about ten pages for a plot summary.

Kibayashi

So I thought, "Well, I could do that." Then I started writing the story about the Hoshido family. I ended up using 10 pages on just the beginning. I ended up writing about 500 pages.

Maeda

Right.

Kibayashi

When I create a story, as I write the details, like the character's lines, I start to love the characters and then they take on a life of their own, and the story begins to move on its own. So there was no way I could just write a short plot summary and be done with it.

Iwata

And without lines, the characters won't come to life.

Kibayashi

That's right. So I ended up writing a huge amount and I thought, "Well, this has become quite the task." So I gave them the pages for the first storyline for the Hoshido family and I had to write the same amount for the other two stories. I said, "There's no way I can do that." But then once I got started...I did it.

 

Well, in this Tweet here, Kibayashi said his three drafts combined was 500 pages.

 

[Thane]

Just now, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Well, in this Tweet here, Kibayashi said his three drafts combined was 500 pages.

 

I can't make out the details, so are you sure he's not just saying he wrote 500 each? That's what he said in the interview, after all.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Just now, Thane said:

I can't make out the details, so are you sure he's not just saying he wrote 500 each? That's what he said in the interview, after all.

"３本合わせて" is "three in total", so ３本合わせて５００枚もの原稿 means the three drafts in total were 500 pages. I could be wrong, since it is 4 am, but I don't think I am. Someone could double check I guess.

[Thane]

Just now, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

"３本合わせて" is "three in total", so ３本合わせて５００枚もの原稿 means the three drafts in total were 500 pages. I could be wrong, since it is 4 am, but I don't think I am. Someone could double check I guess.

I get that, but why would he in the interview say he wrote 500 pages for the Hoshidan family, and then repeated the process twice? It makes no sense, unless what he has written here is "three in total, 500 pages each".

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

5 minutes ago, Thane said:

I get that, but why would he in the interview say he wrote 500 pages for the Hoshidan family, and then repeated the process twice? It makes no sense, unless what he has written here is "three in total, 500 pages each".

There's nothing in the sentence that indicates he meant 500 pages "each", to my understanding. I can read text, but not minds, so beats me.

[Thane]

Just now, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

There's nothing in the sentence that indicates he meant 500 pages "each", to my understanding. I can read text, but not minds, so beats me.

Then we have two very, very different responses from the bloke. However, it seems odd to me that in the interview he would explicitly say he repeated the process of writing 500 words after having started with writing about Birthright. I'm more inclined to believe an interview than a tweet.

Regardless, the point remains that he wrote far, far more than he should have, in spite of his busy schedule and later lack of involvement in the product.

[Xaos Steel Wing]

We can always have hope.

I really liked the GBA Fire Emblem stories, and even Awakening. But it was the characters that made the stories so enjoyable moreso than that actual plots themselves - although I did like the plots, and they definitely kept me interested and motivate to keep going.

A lot can be said about what is wrong with Fates' writing. Very long essays could be written on the issue.

But with what I've seen from Echoes, I think the writers at IS have learned their lesson.

Echoes has more worldbuilding in the prologue than Fates has in the entire game. The dialogue has a much better flow to it. Characters seem more real and less based on common anime tropes (like they were in Awakening and Fates). The supports don't seem that great, but I don't think they were really a focus in Echoes. The camp conversations add a decent bit of character backstories and information and personality outside the supports, which sort of make up for it.

I think that Echoes gives us hope that IS can still make a good Fire Emblem story, after the disappointment that was Fates.

Sure, Echoes had Gaiden's story to work on... but Gaiden had very little story and the characters outside of Alm and Celica had pretty much nothing to them.

Regarding Fates: We don't know if the issues with the story stemmed from Kibiyashi's original draft, IS' converstion of the draft into a video game format, or a combination of both. And we'll probably never know unless Kibayashi's draft is released or he offers some comment on the specific issue of how/what changed from his draft to the game itself.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Xaos Steel Wing

[Captain Karnage]

After how well Echoes was done I have very high expectations for the series from now on.

I do expect that this game will be fully voice acted.

As for Fates I still think that on Paper it's one of the better premises for an FE game, it's just that the more I play it the more I hate the story, especially Revelations

For game play I hope they incorporate some of the elements in Echoes. I kind of hope they keep the weapons triangle from Fates and maybe keep dual strike but not pair up

 

[Jave]

9 hours ago, Thane said:

Then we have two very, very different responses from the bloke. However, it seems odd to me that in the interview he would explicitly say he repeated the process of writing 500 words after having started with writing about Birthright. I'm more inclined to believe an interview than a tweet.

Regardless, the point remains that he wrote far, far more than he should have, in spite of his busy schedule and later lack of involvement in the product.

After re-reading both the interview and the Tweet posted, I think that the 500 pages for all three storylines is in fact the correct answer, but in the interview it's (very) poorly phrased. Kibayashi states he started writing on the Hoshido family, and then immediately states that he "ended up writing about 500 pages". When he says that last quote, it's possible he's referring to the WHOLE process, not just the Hoshidan storyline. 

The Iwata Asks are all originally written in Japanese. Maybe the answer is more clear there?

[Thane]

2 minutes ago, Jave said:

After re-reading both the interview and the Tweet posted, I think that the 500 pages for all three storylines is in fact the correct answer, but in the interview it's (very) poorly phrased. Kibayashi states he started writing on the Hoshido family, and then immediately states that he "ended up writing about 500 pages". When he says that last quote, it's possible he's referring to the WHOLE process, not just the Hoshidan storyline. 

The Iwata Asks are all originally written in Japanese. Maybe the answer is more clear there?

That strikes me as very odd, since he specifically says he repeated the process. If it hadn't been phrased in such a manner, I wouldn't have been as confused. Of course, this could help if I were better at Japanese and could understand all the nuances of the Tweet, and understand the interview in full.

Regardless, I believe we've derailed the topic enough with this. My only point was that I think Kibayashi was to blame as well, even if Intelligent Systems are ultimately responsible for any material they did or didn't use.

[Emeraldfox]

I don't think you should, lest you want to be disappointed because the story might not live up to your expectations. People are still whining over Fates' story. Do you really want to be as miserable as they are?

[Shadow Mir]

45 minutes ago, Emeraldfox said:

I don't think you should, lest you want to be disappointed because the story might not live up to your expectations. People are still whining over Fates' story. Do you really want to be as miserable as they are?

Ditto. I'm keeping my expectations low for this very reason.

[Tsak]

I think they need to work back on having memorable characters. Something they've never really had too much trouble until now it seems like.
Echoes seems like a step in the right direction, especially with the fully voice acted lines. You can make a decent story if the characters in said story are engaging, interesting and follow their own formula fairly consistently. Fates had a good example of a characters having certain values but in the story they would completely flop them for it to continue on, (cmon Xander) in turn making their character very questionable. I think it's important to establish strong character then insert them into a story and make it go from there. I know its not always how the process starts, but i feel like it might help in this case when making a brand new story.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Tsak

[NekoKnight]

While I agree that character interactions are very important for a good narative, the actual story is something worth investing in.

I'm keeping my expectations low after Fates but I would like to be surprised. At the very least, I want a servicable story, and one that breaks from the usual series conventions if they can.

The Switch has a lot of potential for Fire Emblem, let's hope they don't squander it.

[saisymbolic]

The best way to deal with it is to keep expectations relatively low. Or, if you're feeling particularly pessimistic, don't have any hope for the game at all. That way, in the chance that your wishes don't come true, it won't sting as badly.

That said, I'm naturally optimistic and somewhat lenient when it comes to game series I'm fond of. Even when my hopes are trampled on, I manage to find something enjoyable about the game. In terms of FE: Switch, I want to believe that IS has learned from Fates but only time will be able to tell.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

I agree with everyone that expectations should be kept low. I was hyped all the way to Uranus by the second Fates trailer (Choose Your Path), and then sent straight down into the 18th floor of hell.
 

[Slumber]

Really depends. Echoes did well, but it expanded on something already established(Granted, the prologue to Echoes had more dialogue than Gaiden did in total). Fates and Awakening were total shitshows. Radiant Dawn was solid, but had a sharp decline in the last chunk.

Even prior to that stretch of bad writing, Sacred Stones had very poor world-building, and really wasn't a convincing story outside of the Eirika/Ephraim/Lyon thing, and Binding Blade's story was pretty barebones in itself. FE4 was better in this regard, but it had some execution issues. The closest to all-around "good" stories in FE, IMO, are 5, 7 and 9, and even they are far from perfect. 5 spends a little too much time on Leif being too headstrong and bloodthirsty, 7's pretty unoriginal, even in the FE franchise, and 9' pacing and escalation has always felt off to me.

I'd say the first red flag will be an Avatar. I know people like the mechanic, but both original games with Avatars have been worse because of their presence in the story(Though Fates' story probably would have been terrible regardless of an Avatar), and the remake that included an Avatar actively detracted from the writing in that game. IS' track record with stories and Avatars has been exceptionally poor.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Slumber

[TheWill]

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

Really depends. Echoes did well, but it expanded on something already established(Granted, the prologue to Echoes had more dialogue than Gaiden did in total). Fates and Awakening were total shitshows. Radiant Dawn was solid, but had a sharp decline in the last chunk.

Even prior to that stretch of bad writing, Sacred Stones had very poor world-building, and really wasn't a convincing story outside of the Eirika/Ephraim/Lyon thing, and Binding Blade's story was pretty barebones in itself. FE4 was better in this regard, but it had some execution issues. The closest to all-around "good" stories in FE, IMO, are 5, 7 and 9, and even they are far from perfect. 5 spends a little too much time on Leif being too headstrong and bloodthirsty, 7's pretty unoriginal, even in the FE franchise, and 9' pacing and escalation has always felt off to me.

I'd say the first red flag will be an Avatar. I know people like the mechanic, but both original games with Avatars have been worse because of their presence in the story(Though Fates' story probably would have been terrible regardless of an Avatar), and the remake that included an Avatar actively detracted from the writing in that game. IS' track record with stories and Avatars has been exceptionally poor.

Whilst I agree that Avatars have always negatively impacted the story in terms of the Fire Emblem franchise, I am actually interested in an Avatar for Switch since customisation potential will hopefully be increased with the updated graphical capabilities on the Switch.