Should we have high expectations for the Story?

[Etrurian emperor]

25 minutes ago, Thane said:

Didn't they say they received complaints about Awakening's story when developing Fates? Well, what should they say? "We don't know if we'll ever top it", or "we'll improve upon the flaws of the previous installment"?

I've got many problems with Blazing Blade's plot, but the major one is that the villains are god awful. Boring and inefficient. Nergal collects invisible energy that allows him to do whatever the plot demands - kind of like Azura's song - which he gathers by killing people off screen. He manages to let Eliwood and co. get away once, and towards the end of the game doesn't kill them even though it's clearly stated that he could've easily done so. Why am I ever supposed to feel like the protagonists are in danger - which one would know they aren't anyway if one has played Binding Blade - when the main villain is a boring, incompetent buffoon? Even Validar manipulates Chrom to stop Walhart and then tries to kill him when he has outlived his usefulness. Nergal doesn't even reach that incredibly low bar.

For Fire Emblem Switch to be successful, I think the single most important aspect needing improvement over previous titles is the villain. The protagonist can be boring and bland (though of course they'd preferably not be), but at least they're expected to be backed up by more interesting characters; if the villain is lame, then the whole narrative feels cheaper.

Awakening was an overall success so I don't think they really had to mention the complaints the poor story. They still did which I view as them admitting they weren't very satisfied it. 

I think Nergal is rather singled out for letting the heroes live. Narcian also keeps flying off, allowing Roy to kill his goons and win several times. Nothing really prevented Zephiel from staying and dealing with Roy either. Gharnef has Marth and Co trapped in the desert without a means to damage him. He then leaves because he finds it boring and allows Marth to just take over his kingdom without a fuss. If not defeated Julius also has a chance to leave Seliph be because he finds it boring. 
I think the game could have given better reasons for Nergal not killing the heroes but I don't really mind. Its a weakness but it also gives a strength. Because he meets them so often he and the heroes breed a very personal animosity towards each other. 

But I do agree the villains need to be better in the next game. With Garon and the under developed Awakening villain trio IS hit a rather poor villain streak they need to break. Garon being who he was really did cheapen the narrative as you say. 

[Thane]

13 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Awakening was an overall success so I don't think they really had to mention the complaints the poor story. They still did which I view as them admitting they weren't very satisfied it. 

If you are right, then I would be even more concerned, because in the context of the series, Awakening's story isn't remarkable in how its story was handled. But, that's entirely subjective, just like our differing opinion on Blazing Blade.

14 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think Nergal is rather singled out for letting the heroes live. Narcian also keeps flying off, allowing Roy to kill his goons and win several times. Nothing really prevented Zephiel from staying and dealing with Roy either. Gharnef has Marth and Co trapped in the desert without a means to damage him. He then leaves because he finds it boring and allows Marth to just take over his kingdom without a fuss. If not defeated Julius also has a chance to leave Seliph be because he finds it boring. 

Does anyone do it more than once though? Instead of letting Jaffar take care of the three protagonists, he doesn't. Then he gets surprised by the guy he was keeping alive for some reason being able to stab him in the back, then he just leaves near the climax of the game instead of killing the people opposing him. Nergal never comes across as anything more than an idiot on magical steroids.

16 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But I do agree the villains need to be better in the next game. With Garon and the under developed Awakening villain trio IS hit a rather poor villain streak they need to break. Garon being who he was really did cheapen the narrative as you say. 

"Garon"? Try Anankos and all the other villains of Fates. Awakening at least had Walhart. However, one of my major gripes with the series is its lack of good villains, like I've stated many times, and the fact that they didn't bother improving things in Echoes has me worried for the future. I swear if it's another damn dragon...

[Etrurian emperor]

5 minutes ago, Thane said:

Does anyone do it more than once though? Instead of letting Jaffar take care of the three protagonists, he doesn't. Then he gets surprised by the guy he was keeping alive for some reason being able to stab him in the back, then he just leaves near the climax of the game instead of killing the people opposing him. Nergal never comes across as anything more than an idiot on magical steroids.

I think a reason can be given for two out of three. The first time he was indeed stabbed in the back by Elbert who I think was supposed to be tied up at the time. I'm also pretty sure Jaffar had stabbed him too.

The second time Nergal leaving was the deal. ''I'll come with you if you leave my friends alone'' Ninian offered to which Nergal said ''sure'' .

Only the last time there lacked a reason beyond a questionable recognition of Athos still being there. I think the scene would go better if Athos just drove him off. 

9 minutes ago, Thane said:

"Garon"? Try Anankos and all the other villains of Fates. Awakening at least had Walhart. However, one of my major gripes with the series is its lack of good villains, like I've stated many times, and the fact that they didn't bother improving things in Echoes has me worried for the future. I swear if it's another damn dragon...

I think Garon is the more noticeable one because his large amount of screentime, the lost potential of it and because he so negatively influences Corrin's choice and all of the royals. He kind of drags the whole kingdom of Nohr and the entire conflict with him due to it all just happening because he's feeling evil.

[Slumber]

20 minutes ago, Thane said:

"Garon"? Try Anankos and all the other villains of Fates. Awakening at least had Walhart. However, one of my major gripes with the series is its lack of good villains, like I've stated many times, and the fact that they didn't bother improving things in Echoes has me worried for the future. I swear if it's another damn dragon...

You say "Awakening at least had Walhart" as if that's some sort of positive thing.

Walhart was a neat(But not unique) concept, but the execution is just some of the worst Awakening has to offer. He had a story arc that felt like filler in the grand scheme of things, on top of his arc being completely underdeveloped, his motivations couldn't even be really explained until SoV revealed that Alm had found out about Grima 2000 years earlier, and he has absolutely no personality beyond being a flat Genghis Khan archetype. Even when he becomes recruitable, he gains no significant character traits. Gangrel and Aversa get dialogue that actually flesh out their characters and explain them quite a bit, but Walhart's support dialogue is basically "I'M A CONQUEROR" and "PHEH, CONQUERORS SHOULDN'T BE DOING THIS!" for 3 to 7 whole conversations.

That said, still better than Garon and Anankos.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Slumber

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

He had a story arc that felt like filler in the grand scheme of things, on top of his arc being completely underdeveloped, his motivations couldn't even be really explained until SoV revealed that Alm had found out about Grima 2000 years earlier

Isn't Act 6 of SoV of questionable canonicity? Grima's origins isn't, and maybe Furia Port too. But Alm and Celica going to Archanea is of debatable veracity, and at the very least they wouldn't have brought the Falchion- it's stuck under the sea in Ga- I mean stuck in Duma's skull under Valentia.

[Thane]

6 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think a reason can be given for two out of three. The first time he was indeed stabbed in the back by Elbert who I think was supposed to be tied up at the time. I'm also pretty sure Jaffar had stabbed him too.

The second time Nergal leaving was the deal. ''I'll come with you if you leave my friends alone'' Ninian offered to which Nergal said ''sure'' .

Only the last time there lacked a reason beyond a questionable recognition of Athos still being there. I think the scene would go better if Athos just drove him off. 

And why wasn't Elbert killed yet? Why wasn't Jaffar killing them right then and there? It's these strings of weird coincidences and Nergal's folly that completely remove the tension from Blazing Blade. That and the fact that we know nothing will happen to the world due to Binding Blade.

7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think Garon is the more noticeable one because his large amount of screentime, the lost potential of it and because he so negatively influences Corrin's choice and all of the royals. He kind of drags the whole kingdom of Nohr and the entire conflict with him due to it all just happening because he's feeling evil.

I agree, trust me. However, like I always say, Anankos' mere existence renders Birthright and Conquest superfluous story-wise, and is essentially what is wrong with Garon at the same time. 

It's too bad, because I expected Garon to be more like Wind Waker Ganondorf, and Azura more like Kreia, but instead we got yet another bloody dragon.

5 minutes ago, Slumber said:

You say "Awakening at least had Walhart" as if that's some sort of positive thing.

You say that as if opinions aren't a thing.

Walhart's arc is pathetic, but I still really appreciate the man himself as a character and a villain. The fact that he mirrors many of the lords in the series but takes another path, all while having started out from nothing, is intriguing to me. I even wrote about the bloke here, if you want to read my full thougts.

[Leif]

15 minutes ago, Thane said:

"Garon"? Try Anankos and all the other villains of Fates. Awakening at least had Walhart. However, one of my major gripes with the series is its lack of good villains, like I've stated many times, and the fact that they didn't bother improving things in Echoes has me worried for the future. I swear if it's another damn dragon...

Slumber beat me to it, but Walhart, like many of the characters in Awakening, was more of a one-trick pony with his character gimmick being "I AM A STRONG CONQUEROR! BOW TO ME." He had potential, but he wasn't used well. 

I think we'll have to accept the fact that there's a 99.999999% chance that FE Switch will follow the same story as most of the Fire Emblems in the series.  As much as I want my gritty, dark GoT-style Fire Emblem I don't think that'll happen. However, I do have a small amount of hope because the final Deliverance DLC map from SoV had a story (when isolated from the rest of the game) that was well done. There's also Chapter 19 from Thracia 776 where Leif screwed up royally and *actually* suffered the consequences of his actions. Hell, Conquest had a moment of brilliance when Corrin and his/her Nohrian siblings overtake the Hoshidian Capital. All the townsfolk openly revile Corrin because they saw him/her as an evil person who sought to decimate Hoshido. IS has it in them to write a good story, they just need to get an experienced writing team that's not afraid to do things differently. 

[Etrurian emperor]

4 minutes ago, Thane said:

And why wasn't Elbert killed yet? Why wasn't Jaffar killing them right then and there? It's these strings of weird coincidences and Nergal's folly that completely remove the tension from Blazing Blade. That and the fact that we know nothing will happen to the world due to Binding Blade.

Can't really think of a reason for him to be alive at the time, just for his capture. Been a while since I played the game and Elbert never really caught my attention anyway.

The world not really changing much is just the nature of a prequel. I can't say I mind the smaller, more personal story. It helps set Blazing blade apart to some extend. 

6 minutes ago, Thane said:

It's too bad, because I expected Garon to be more like Wind Waker Ganondorf, and Azura more like Kreia, but instead we got yet another bloody dragon.

I was personally expecting a villain like Trabant or Neasella since their kingdoms are so similar. Perhaps real Garon was that way but he got zero scenes so we'll never know. 

[Thane]

7 minutes ago, Leif said:

Slumber beat me to it, but Walhart, like many of the characters in Awakening, was more of a one-trick pony with his character gimmick being "I AM A STRONG CONQUEROR! BOW TO ME." He had potential, but he wasn't used well. 

I agree that his potential was wasted, but I don't think he himself is a bad character. Like I wrote in my reply to Slumber, I've written about my thoughts about him and provided a link, if you'd care to read. 

7 minutes ago, Leif said:

Hell, Conquest had a moment of brilliance when Corrin and his/her Nohrian siblings overtake the Hoshidian Capital. All the townsfolk openly revile Corrin because they saw him/her as an evil person who sought to decimate Hoshido. 

That wasn't a moment of brilliance, that was one of the few natural reactions in all of Fates. The odd part is that there isn't more of that, and that Corrin's Hoshidan siblings trust them at all in Conquest. Nohrrin, for all intents and purposes, is a villain in Conquest.

6 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The world not really changing much is just the nature of a prequel.

Which is one of my problems with Blazing Blade as a whole: why does it exist? Why not just delve into the Scouring or something? Why have it take place 20 years before Binding Blade and involve a world-threatening conflict we know won't come to pass? Also, as a personal pet peeve, it includes hamfisted references to Binding Blade, too, like Hector's sudden prophetic dream.

6 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I can't say I mind the smaller, more personal story. It helps set Blazing blade apart to some extend. 

I wouldn't have minded that either (in fact I would've preferred it), but that's not really how the story turned out. We start more personal with Lyn, but then she fades into nothingness and it starts being about dragons and evil wizards once more.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Thane

[Harvey]

22 hours ago, Thane said:

Didn't they say they received complaints about Awakening's story when developing Fates? Well, what should they say? "We don't know if we'll ever top it", or "we'll improve upon the flaws of the previous installment"?

I've got many problems with Blazing Blade's plot, but the major one is that the villains are god awful. Boring and inefficient. Nergal collects invisible energy that allows him to do whatever the plot demands - kind of like Azura's song - which he gathers by killing people off screen. He manages to let Eliwood and co. get away once, and towards the end of the game doesn't kill them even though it's clearly stated that he could've easily done so. Why am I ever supposed to feel like the protagonists are in danger - which one would know they aren't anyway if one has played Binding Blade - when the main villain is a boring, incompetent buffoon? Even Validar manipulates Chrom to stop Walhart and then tries to kill him when he has outlived his usefulness. Nergal doesn't even reach that incredibly low bar.

For Fire Emblem Switch to be successful, I think the single most important aspect needing improvement over previous titles is the villain. The protagonist can be boring and bland (though of course they'd preferably not be), but at least they're expected to be backed up by more interesting characters; if the villain is lame, then the whole narrative feels cheaper.

If you honestly ask me, most Fire Emblem stories never have anything of depth as any Final Fantasy game would until FE4 and FE9 showed up which is when fans in general started complaining about stories in FE.

Also, I couldn't help but argue over some points.

Nergal needs quintessence to survive and he needs a lot. He stated that he could easily do so but he would require a lot of power in doing so and besides, he was at the time injured as soon as they stopped the dragon from coming.

Yeah I agree that the main villain is kinda dull but that doesn't mean that the rest of the story is awful because of it. Like the already explained world building, different scenarios etc almost trying that One Piece vibe.

On 7/10/2017 at 1:31 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

And many people don't think that; I felt that Blazing Sword's story was extremely poor.. Regardless, if we want to go into what "many people" think, then you can rest assured that IntSys is gonna give us more games with writing like Fates and (especially) Awakening, since the casual fanbase has shown pretty clearly that that's what they want from FE writing-wise, not Blazing Sword. (Or Echoes. Or Tellius.)

FE7 did something different and it was suppose to if IS wanted FE to be big in the western markets. Since people have experienced FE from GBA times atleast in west, obviously they wouldn't have seen the previous games until they get knowledge out of the series itself.

Again I get that it doesn't please you but again...it could have been worse..

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Harvey

[Etrurian emperor]

On 10-7-2017 at 5:36 PM, Thane said:

Which is one of my problems with Blazing Blade as a whole: why does it exist? Why not just delve into the Scouring or something? Why have it take place 20 years before Binding Blade and involve a world-threatening conflict we know won't come to pass? Also, as a personal pet peeve, it includes hamfisted references to Binding Blade, too, like Hector's sudden prophetic dream.

I think its highly likely that the answer for that question is: Smash bros Melee. 

Roy(And Marth of course) being in Smash began the process of Fire emblem making its way into the west. They probably wanted to do something more with Elibe but if the games were coming to the west then doing something after Roy's adventure wouldn't be particularly wise. They also couldn't quite ignore Roy either so they ended up focusing on his dad and give some bits of Roy fanservice like his cameo or the ''Cornelis'' of that game showing up and showing why he was such a big deal despite dying so soon in Binding blade. 

I don't think a game set during the scouring would have worked. It would require a lot of dragons as enemies and that would come at the cost of enemy variety. It would also require an explanation as to how you can take down so many of them relatively easily. For gameplay purposes dragons work better as a rare boss or leading villain rather then an ever present foe. That's probably why even the dragon country of Dolhr only has a couple of dragons in the stages set there. 

[bethany81707]

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Roy(And Marth of course) being in Smash began the process of Fire emblem making its way into the west. They probably wanted to do something more with Elibe but if the games were coming to the west then doing something after Roy's adventure wouldn't be particularly wise. They also couldn't quite ignore Roy either so they ended up focusing on his dad and give some bits of Roy fanservice like his cameo or the ''Cornelis'' of that game showing up and showing why he was such a big deal despite dying so soon in Binding blade. 

 

Why was that cut completely from the European release, then?

[Interdimensional Observer]

26 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

Why was that cut completely from the European release, then?

I'm guessing it was done to kill any idea Binding Blade would be coming aboard, which leaving it in would accidentally imply.

[Etrurian emperor]

9 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Why was that cut completely from the European release, then?

It was? I'm European and I recall seeing Roy. Probably because ive been a bit of a thief at the time...

[bethany81707]

28 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

It was? I'm European and I recall seeing Roy. Probably because ive been a bit of a thief at the time...

Yeah, it's not there. Did you read the opening narrations for the chapters? If so, do you recall a line of one being Italian for reasons?

Do the names 'Ositia', 'Lahus', 'Biran', or 'Renaud' ring any bells?

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Yeah, it's not there. Did you read the opening narrations for the chapters? If so, do you recall a line of one being Italian for reasons?

Do the names 'Ositia', 'Lahus', 'Biran', or 'Renaud' ring any bells?

They do. I know they are the alternative names Ostia, Laus and Bern since those are European locations but my emulator game said the proper ones.

[Thane]

20 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think its highly likely that the answer for that question is: Smash bros Melee. 

Roy(And Marth of course) being in Smash began the process of Fire emblem making its way into the west. They probably wanted to do something more with Elibe but if the games were coming to the west then doing something after Roy's adventure wouldn't be particularly wise. They also couldn't quite ignore Roy either so they ended up focusing on his dad and give some bits of Roy fanservice like his cameo or the ''Cornelis'' of that game showing up and showing why he was such a big deal despite dying so soon in Binding blade. 

So rather than expanding upon Roy's story with a plot that could stand on its own, they opted to write about his dad because of his son's popularity in another game?  That's silly and most certainly doesn't make the plot of Blazing Blade make any more sense.

20 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't think a game set during the scouring would have worked. It would require a lot of dragons as enemies and that would come at the cost of enemy variety. It would also require an explanation as to how you can take down so many of them relatively easily. For gameplay purposes dragons work better as a rare boss or leading villain rather then an ever present foe. That's probably why even the dragon country of Dolhr only has a couple of dragons in the stages set there. 

I don't think that argument works either. While the Scouring was merely a suggestion, there are loads of things you could add to make it more interesting. Humans who side with the dragons, different kinds of dragons, and so on. While I'm sick of dragons in general, the Scouring is infinitely more interesting than Nergal, his band of unfeeling robots, and the dumbest assassins in the series.

[Dark Holy Elf]

5 hours ago, Thane said:

I don't think that argument works either. While the Scouring was merely a suggestion, there are loads of things you could add to make it more interesting. Humans who side with the dragons, different kinds of dragons, and so on. While I'm sick of dragons in general, the Scouring is infinitely more interesting than Nergal, his band of unfeeling robots, and the dumbest assassins in the series.

I do wonder if FE7's plot didn't begin with the Zephiel assassination arc (roughly Eliwood chapters 24-26). It's a neat look how the relationships of Zephiel and his family members shaped the villain who he would become in FE6, and ties in Eliwood and Hector saving him for some fun irony given what comes later. It is literally the only time in the game the Black Fang actually behave like assassins (taking a contract to do a job) rather than an impossibly large band of idiots. It's probably the only part of FE7 that feels well-written, outside perhaps some bits of the earlygame before the Black Fang and Nergal ruin everything. Unfortunately they clearly ran out of ideas with how to flesh out that plot with a full game that didn't contradict FE6 (e.g. they couldn't have a large-scale war) and the result was the mess we got.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I do wonder if FE7's plot didn't begin with the Zephiel assassination arc (roughly Eliwood chapters 24-26). It's a neat look how the relationships of Zephiel and his family members shaped the villain who he would become in FE6, and ties in Eliwood and Hector saving him for some fun irony given what comes later. It is literally the only time in the game the Black Fang actually behave like assassins (taking a contract to do a job) rather than an impossibly large band of idiots. It's probably the only part of FE7 that feels well-written, outside perhaps some bits of the earlygame before the Black Fang and Nergal ruin everything. Unfortunately they clearly ran out of ideas with how to flesh out that plot with a full game that didn't contradict FE6 (e.g. they couldn't have a large-scale war) and the result was the mess we got.

I'll agree with this as a whole. The Black Fang is quite atrocious for a group of assassins, and what assassins group would have Knights- the antithesis of assassins- in it? Though I do think, to add to the plot's silver lining a little, that FE7's inclusion of Athos, Bramimond, Roland, and Durbans was kinda cool (mostly the former two)- for once we actually got to see some of the heroes of ancient yore (replicated only later in Tellius).

[NekoKnight]

I think you can interpret the Black Fang 'army' as being an evolution of their original purpose. They used to be a small group of assassins who took on particular jobs but under Nergal they became a military organization that serves itself rather than the common people.

[bethany81707]

3 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I think you can interpret the Black Fang 'army' as being an evolution of their original purpose. They used to be a small group of assassins who took on particular jobs but under Nergal they became a military organization that serves itself rather than the common people.

Which, if true, explains why the suck: they're not doing what they're good at.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

On 7/10/2017 at 10:58 AM, Thane said:

"Garon"? Try Anankos and all the other villains of Fates. Awakening at least had Walhart. However, one of my major gripes with the series is its lack of good villains, like I've stated many times, and the fact that they didn't bother improving things in Echoes has me worried for the future. I swear if it's another damn dragon...

Speaking of villains or more specifically antagonists this all the more reason why Sacred Stones is my favorite game because you have antagonists that are sympathetic Lyon (even in Ephraim's path where he is in more control or so he thinks), Selena, Orson and even Carlyle despite his short role and then those that you just want to end them like Valter, Caellach and yes even the Demon King as he has shown himself to be a good puppeteer in knowing how to pull Lyon's strings in knowing just how to hurt the Renais twins (Eirika giving the stone to Lyon is understandable and it's not out of left field if people bothered paying attention to how it's been from her perspective in seeing the kind Lyon she knows as opposed to how Ephraim has come across somebody entirely different and keep in mind it's not even pulling from no where because the stones are able to save lives as Lyon in a flashback was able to save a little girl's life who was on the brink of death from a fire which not only saved her but got rid of the wounds on her body and that was only a sliver of the stone's power as he said so it does fall within reason for her doing so.) and put them in a forlorn state in knowing and now having to accept their friend is gone. He's whole lot smarter than Grima who just remains in the sky allowing the good guys to perform the awakening for Chrom's Falchion, which granted was probably typical arrogance but that doesn't excuse him.

I enjoy seeing antags that are foils to the protags. I really like how Lyon is a foil to Eirika and Ephraim (especially for him) in each of their paths giving us different aspects of his character. Even Orson and Carlyle follow as foils to Seth given his own love for Eirika if he ever went astray with his feelings.

Another thing is that Valter and Caellach despite how despicable human beings they are they have actually did used to have humanity in them but turned even further astray letting out the demon within them like Valter when he grabs Dussel's cursed family lance or just how Caellach kills his old friend Aias as he doesn't want to be chained to the past and only wants to look to his future and what he can achieve reaching his ambitions and he even has a casual conversation with Joshua on Ephraim's path with their being no hostility between them as opposed to the other path which is such a shift in showing us another side of him (he's with most certainty Hans but done right).

I actually think Berkut is a good foil to Alm and hope to see more foils in the future but I really just did not care for the Duma faithful at all and view them to be just as bad as the Fates villains. 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

2 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Which, if true, explains why the suck: they're not doing what they're good at.

I still to this day take issue with Ursula not doing her job in capturing Ninian and Nils and not suffering the Fang's code early in the game and she never brings up what was so important she had to neglect her duty. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by AbsoluteZer0Nova