Should we have high expectations for the Story?

[The Geek]

On 5/31/2017 at 2:58 AM, Harvey said:

What can happen though is that they can make use of Monolith Soft for trying out on the story side of things since I personally think that Xenoblade has pretty good writing all over it.

I mean, I'd say the same thing but then you remember that Xenoblade X exists and that game's story is less than spectacular.  And even then when you look at all the stories by the Xenoblade writer Takahashi Tetsuya:  Xenogears has a good story but with a very slow start, Xenosaga is a melodramatic space opera (though many of its story flaws can be attributed to meddling by Namco), Xenoblade is mostly good but kind of goes off the rails near the end, and XenoX has lame villains and a very unfocused plot.

Though honestly I'd totally be down for a FE with its plot written by Takahashi Tetsuya.  Just so long as they make sure to include mindfuck crucifixion scenes.

EDIT:  And more in response to what the thread is actually about:  always keep your expectations low.  No FE really has a great story and I really don't see any reason to expect that to change.  Just make the game enjoyable and the characters likable (or hateable in a love to hate kind of way) and we're all good.

Edited June 9, 2017 by The Geek

[Slumber]

I'd honestly say Xenogears is the only Xeno game with noteworthy writing.

Xenosaga is a bunch of concepts that are really difficult to get invested in. Xenoblade has a bunch of bad tropes throughout that I really just couldn't hate any more(Not that Xenogears doesn't have iffy tropes, but Xenogears doesn't kill off a major character for motivation near the start, bring her back, changed, for drama, then change her back to normal at the very end. That pissed me off to no end.). But, I mean, that's more just my opinion.

Never bothered with XCX, since I didn't like Xenoblade, and even among the people who like Xenoblade, XCX sounds like a mixed bag, especially with writing. I also didn't have a Wii U, but that's besides the point.

Point is, I feel like Monolith Soft helping with the story wouldn't be as big as a boon as some people expect, they're just latching onto the idea that they like Xenoblade. Plus, their forte is mecha sci-fi stories with heavy religious allegories. Literally what their main bread and butter has been for 20 years now. They left Square because Square didn't want them doing more mecha sci-fi stories with heavy religious allegories. So yeah. Doesn't really mesh well with Fire Emblem.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Slumber

[Køkø]

Let's just be honest. Their main goal is sales, not integrity. The trend Awakening started has proven to be profitable, and will continue to be produced as long as it sells. None of FE's plots are really mind blowing in the first place. Genealogy's plot is the best in the series so far. Thracia could have been the best gameplay wise if not for some of the annoying mechanics. IS has proved they're capable of making good games without Kaga, I'm citing Tellius. But those games did abysmal in Japan, and weren't exactly best sellers in the West either. See my point above.

[Sentinel07]

On 6/8/2017 at 11:13 PM, The Geek said:

I mean, I'd say the same thing but then you remember that Xenoblade X exists and that game's story is less than spectacular.  And even then when you look at all the stories by the Xenoblade writer Takahashi Tetsuya:  Xenogears has a good story but with a very slow start, Xenosaga is a melodramatic space opera (though many of its story flaws can be attributed to meddling by Namco), Xenoblade is mostly good but kind of goes off the rails near the end, and XenoX has lame villains and a very unfocused plot.

Though honestly I'd totally be down for a FE with its plot written by Takahashi Tetsuya.  Just so long as they make sure to include mindfuck crucifixion scenes.

EDIT:  And more in response to what the thread is actually about:  always keep your expectations low.  No FE really has a great story and I really don't see any reason to expect that to change.  Just make the game enjoyable and the characters likable (or hateable in a love to hate kind of way) and we're all good.

To be honest, there's kind of a reason why Xenoblade X's story feels a bit lacking.

It was originally supposed to be as story-heavy as previous Xeno games before it, but Takahashi felt like trying to do that would bog down game development, as it was Monolith's first ever HD game. So, he intentionally lightened the story to not be as concept-heavy and had the development team focus on gameplay above all else.

[SSbardock84]

I have high expectations, but I'm scared to. I remember how hyped I was for Fates, that was one of the most disappointing moments in my life. They should be able to distribute a pretty good story, it'll probably help a lot that it won't be three separate games.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, SSbardock84 said:

it'll probably help a lot that it won't be three separate games.

I mean... that hasn't helped other FE games with bad writing.

[Jedi]

On 6/4/2017 at 5:04 AM, nhaer042 said:

Fire Emblem plots have never  really resonated with me too much. Heck, not even Fates bothers me a terrible amount anymore. The true charm of  the series for me is the character interactions. As long as they nail that and the gameplay down I'll be happy.

Yeah this is pretty much it, the gameplay & characters in the worlds, rather than the actual plots of the worlds themselves is what grips me with FE. 

[bufkus]

Unless they make amends with Shozo Kaga or hire someone like Yasumi Matsuno, I am going to say no, we should not have high expectations for the story.

It'll be passable/decent, but not mind-blowing.

[Dandy Druid]

It really depends. 4,5,9,10, and 12 have really strong stories, while Echoes has the best presentation; so if they're able to combine the good creative story elements of the 5 games I first mentioned with Echoes, the game's story would be really solid.

But this is easier said than done. I expect the presentation and gameplay to be good, and the story to be better than Fates, but that's not saying much. I'm expecting more of a FE7 or Awakening type of story with a really good presentation. FE7 and Awakening, to me, were very 'safe' in writing. While not bad, they're just not the most exciting, but still enjoyable.

But usually where the story falls, the cast picks up the slack, so we also have to hope for decently-written characters. Echoes proved it can do it, although they may need more supports. I like how the GBA games did it, where most characters had around 7 characters they could support with.

[TheWill]

Fire Emblem 7 should be the standard for the series. Not bad, but not great either. Anything around there should be fine (a bit better/a bit worse). The only ones that I'd list as notably worse would be 6, 11, 13 and 14 (only considering 4+ and not 5, haven't played).

I feel like we've lost as an audience if we ever feel like we shouldn't expect anything form a games story.

[Thane]

39 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

Fire Emblem 7 should be the standard for the series.

Good lord, if that's the quality of the story we should be expecting, then that'd definitely kill my hype. I've yet to give up hope on good Fire Emblem stories.

[TheWill]

3 minutes ago, Thane said:

Good lord, if that's the quality of the story we should be expecting, then that'd definitely kill my hype. I've yet to give up hope on good Fire Emblem stories.

Well considering the consistent decline of (original) story/characters, I doubt we'd get FE7 levels of "good"ness. Whilst Echoes showed a solid improvement, we'll have to see whether Switch follows in its footsteps or regress back to Awakening/Fates level.

Edit: That isn't to say Echoes didn't have its fair share of issues. Sadly, it had some pretty glaring issues.

Edited July 8, 2017 by SlipperySlippy

[Thane]

Just now, SlipperySlippy said:

Well considering the consistent decline of (original) story/characters, I doubt we'd get FE7 levels of "good"ness. Whilst Echoes showed a solid improvement, we'll have to see whether Switch follows in its footsteps or regress back to Awakening/Fates level.

I don't think Echoes showed much of an improvement outside of the presentation at all, and Blazing Blade has my second least favorite story in the series. Fire Emblem Switch should expand upon what worked in Echoes' presentation, but it should most certainly try to blow a story like Blazing Blade out of the water, which should not be too difficult.

[TheWill]

Just now, Thane said:

I don't think Echoes showed much of an improvement outside of the presentation at all, and Blazing Blade has my second least favorite story in the series. Fire Emblem Switch should expand upon what worked in Echoes' presentation, but it should most certainly try to blow a story like Blazing Blade out of the water, which should not be too difficult.

With the presentation being a huge improvement from its predecessors, it's exactly why Echoes was a vast improvement from older Fire Emblems. Blazing Blade's story is quite standard, but I can see why people dislike it. Subjectivity aside, with recent showings of consistently bad stories, I think beating Blazing Blade is dubious, but hopeful at this point. With Awakening's poor plot resulting in IS hiring a manga artist that proceeded to make an even more contrived story with even worse presentation, I do hope they focus their efforts on the overarching plot.

[Thane]

Just now, SlipperySlippy said:

With the presentation being a huge improvement from its predecessors, it's exactly why Echoes was a vast improvement from older Fire Emblems.

But the story itself left a lot to be desired, and rather than solving some of Gaiden's flaws, they grew worse the more they expanded upon them. That's not a particularly good sign.

[TheWill]

Just now, Thane said:

But the story itself left a lot to be desired, and rather than solving some of Gaiden's flaws, they grew worse the more they expanded upon them. That's not a particularly good sign.

Yes, I agree. The inherent flaws behind Gaiden's story weren't addressed, most disastrously with Rudolph actions. The presentation helped band-aid the notability, but didn't address the flawed nature of the story. Honestly, I think their idea with Fates was on the right track in terms of hiring a renown writer. Prior the games release, the concept behind choosing between two countries could have resulted in an engaging storyline with endearing moments, however the execution was... as we know. Personally, I'd applaud them if they moved away from the redundant war plot and breathed new life into the franchise, but as they have yet to fully hit home an engaging war-themed game, I don't mind. I suppose Geneology is the closest in terms of providing an engaging story in a war-torn setting, however performs poorly in terms of presentation, pacing and requires vast expansion similar to Gaiden.

[Thane]

5 hours ago, SlipperySlippy said:

Honestly, I think their idea with Fates was on the right track in terms of hiring a renown writer.

Fame should have nothing to do with it. I'd say Intelligent Systems were completely out of their depth when they hired him, as they accepted his first draft that was written far too quickly and turned out to be far bigger than they had anticipated. Not only that, but the chap couldn't supervise the game at all, if memory serves, leading to it becoming a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth. 

If they wanted to do things differently, then they wouldn't have hired someone who wrote a story that turned out to be unnecessarily similar to previous installments. Seeking advice from outsiders would be good for them, but I think what Intelligent Systems need more than anything is to sit down and talk about what plot elements work and not, and which ones are in dire need of a break or reimagining. A part of me wonders if they should even have some sort of dialogue with their fans, though that might turn out disastrously.

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 6/10/2017 at 3:06 PM, Slumber said:

Never bothered with XCX, since I didn't like Xenoblade, and even among the people who like Xenoblade, XCX sounds like a mixed bag, especially with writing. I also didn't have a Wii U, but that's besides the point.

The silver lining is that XCX ends on a giant cliffhanger and a direct sequel has a lot of questions to answer, not that saying loads of potential for a sequel at all excuses the plot in this game.

Elma- I like her, but I can see why some would call her flat, a bit repetitive, and disagree with her views. Lin and Tatsu on the other hand- I'd feed them to Gradivus the Headless Emperor any day of the week. Lin is too innocent and anime, Tatsu with Lin inserts too much slice of life and unfunny repetitive humor, even in the climatic revelatory final room where the final boss gauntlet occurs they're making unfunnies! The story should have mandated Elma for every chapter, but rotated who else comes with her- Lin here, Doug there, maybe Lao for one or two.

For the villains, Luxaar and the Ganglion as a whole are generic as anything. Ryyz contributed nothing and Goetia should have replaced her, even though Goetia is hardly any better (having one subpar female villain appear 4 times is better than two subpar female villains each appear 2 times). Ga Jiarg is a generic proud warrior and unnecessary, no wonder Uncle Caineghis exiled him across the cosmos. The Traitor you're supposed to feel sympathy towards, but they tend to come off to many players, to borrow L's word choice, as an asscave.

The plot does have its shining moments. The feeling of humanity's struggle to survive is excellently done, and Chapter 8 and 12 are both crazy epic. 12 also does have some serious philosophical questions come up, but that is unfortunately the last chapter.

If there is anything that IS should take from Monolith, it should be how to make beautiful worlds you explore in 3D. Also, Monolith can teach them how to make sidequests that help build the world. (But can we skip the Definians? They appeared a little too much in sidequests, and in particular, Boze's final Affinity Mission, which was pretty bad overall, had a Definian thrown in like it was a grain of sand- why would one be randomly standing around in a cave waiting for a passing human?)

 

On 6/9/2017 at 2:13 AM, The Geek said:

Just so long as they make sure to include mindfuck crucifixion scenes.

Please don't praise the nadir of XG's writing. 

That said, I loved the unholy villain trinity of Grahf-Miang-Krelian. The dynamics between the villains were very well done, and each had their own very distinct flavor. 

[Harvey]

16 hours ago, Thane said:

Good lord, if that's the quality of the story we should be expecting, then that'd definitely kill my hype. I've yet to give up hope on good Fire Emblem stories.

I'd say that FE7 has a good plot for something that it was trying to do. Its not as deep as the other games but its not the worst either. 

I think I agree that having plots like FE7 is a good start since many people still think that FE7 plot is well written and all. I think that IS should co develop with Monolith Soft really cause those dudes can make a story stand out like..Xenoblade Chronicles.

I don't want to get into Echoes spoilers because I'm still playing the game but so far, its story is quite nice.

 

[Shadow Mir]

10 minutes ago, Harvey said:

I think that IS should co develop with Monolith Soft really cause those dudes can make a story stand out like..Xenoblade Chronicles.

No. I think it wouldn't work for reasons.

[Slumber]

9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Please don't praise the nadir of XG's writing. 

Point: The crucifixion scene is far and away the most on the nose and hamfisted XG gets with its Christian mythology allegories.

Counterpoint: A giant hamster is nailed to a cross alongside giant robots, and that's radical.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Slumber

[Fireball260]

Fire Emblem plots have never really had an impact on me. What makes FE stories for me is the plot is more of the characters that have an impact. As long as the characters are likable than even a bad plot can be tolerated in my eyes. As long as the characters are fun and enjoyable I'll get by. 

The biggest problem with Fates is that it was an ensemble cast kinda thing which is incredibly hard to pull off let alone with a writer that isn't always there. 

I feel that the biggest problem with Fates is how it's story was developed. Things change constantly during development it wasn't a surprise that IS had to change stuff but without the writer supervising the edits the story loses all focus. Either write it in house where you have control over everything or get a writer who can be involved during development. 

 

My mentality for FE games is low expectations for story, mid- high for gameplay(even tho that bit me a bit with SoV)

[Dark Holy Elf]

17 hours ago, Harvey said:

I'd say that FE7 has a good plot for something that it was trying to do. Its not as deep as the other games but its not the worst either. 

I think I agree that having plots like FE7 is a good start since many people still think that FE7 plot is well written and all.

 

And many people don't think that; I felt that Blazing Sword's story was extremely poor.. Regardless, if we want to go into what "many people" think, then you can rest assured that IntSys is gonna give us more games with writing like Fates and (especially) Awakening, since the casual fanbase has shown pretty clearly that that's what they want from FE writing-wise, not Blazing Sword. (Or Echoes. Or Tellius.)

[Etrurian emperor]

17 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And many people don't think that; I felt that Blazing Sword's story was extremely poor.. Regardless, if we want to go into what "many people" think, then you can rest assured that IntSys is gonna give us more games with writing like Fates and (especially) Awakening, since the casual fanbase has shown pretty clearly that that's what they want from FE writing-wise, not Blazing Sword. (Or Echoes. Or Tellius.)

I still don't think that those games stories were a deliberate choice that a large amount of fans responded positively too and that this would justify a lack of effort from IS on that front. I don't think IS is particularly pleased with the stories of those games either, they even said something akin to that about Awakening.
The problems that held Awakening and Fates back seem to be situations unique to those games. Awakening was supposed to be the last game and Fates ''had' to split its ideas through three games while having a writer that's not very well versed in video game writing. If those problems aren't there I personally don't see a reason to expect another terrible story. It would be different it the fans showed themselves accepting those stories but even those that love Fates tend not to defend its story. I'm not expecting a Tellius style story but I think something like Blazing sword would be possible for the writers to reach at the very least.

I still don't quite get the very vocal amount of criticism Blazing sword story gets. To me it seems like a competent escalations of events with the heroes slowly moving from bandits, to corrupt nobles, to an international mercenary guild and then finally a dark wizard trying to take over the world. Most of those groups have at least some sort of dynamic with the heroes and unlike the Awakening villains they all get enough screentime to get that across. Even very minor characters like Hausen can get their brief defining moment. 

I see blazing sword as a jack of all traits. It doesn't dominate the other games. Its got pretty good worldbuilding but it doesn't dominate in that regard like Tellius does, The Fangs aren't as affable as the Grado generals and the villains as a whole are more formulaic than Tellius but they all fill their roles and archtypes very well, Nergal probably being the most well rounded Gharnef. 

Yet Blazing sword is also rarely the worst. It doesn't suffer the glaring issues like the non existent world building of Sacred stones, its not as relatively bare bones as Shadow Dragon or Binding Blade, it doesn't get to big for its bridges like RD, its villains don't suffer from a lack of screentime as in Awakening and Shadow Dragon and its never quite so clumsy as Fates. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Etrurian emperor

[Thane]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

they even said something akin to that about Awakening.

Didn't they say they received complaints about Awakening's story when developing Fates? Well, what should they say? "We don't know if we'll ever top it", or "we'll improve upon the flaws of the previous installment"?

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I still don't quite get the very vocal amount of criticism Blazing sword story gets. To me it seems like a competent escalations of events with the heroes slowly moving from bandits, to corrupt nobles, to an international mercenary guild and then finally a dark wizard trying to take over the world. Most of those groups have at least some sort of dynamic with the heroes and unlike the Awakening villains they all get enough screentime to get that across. Even very minor characters like Hausen can get their brief defining moment. 

I've got many problems with Blazing Blade's plot, but the major one is that the villains are god awful. Boring and inefficient. Nergal collects invisible energy that allows him to do whatever the plot demands - kind of like Azura's song - which he gathers by killing people off screen. He manages to let Eliwood and co. get away once, and towards the end of the game doesn't kill them even though it's clearly stated that he could've easily done so. Why am I ever supposed to feel like the protagonists are in danger - which one would know they aren't anyway if one has played Binding Blade - when the main villain is a boring, incompetent buffoon? Even Validar manipulates Chrom to stop Walhart and then tries to kill him when he has outlived his usefulness. Nergal doesn't even reach that incredibly low bar.

For Fire Emblem Switch to be successful, I think the single most important aspect needing improvement over previous titles is the villain. The protagonist can be boring and bland (though of course they'd preferably not be), but at least they're expected to be backed up by more interesting characters; if the villain is lame, then the whole narrative feels cheaper.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Thane