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I know it's a remake, and of course it's fine to take some mechanics from the original Gaiden. But too many (poorly implemented) mechanics were taken over at cost of its gameplay imo.


Magic
Magic seems to be OP at first sight.
Most enemies have crappy resistance and it ingores any terrain.
Furthermore tomes with three range exist.
However magic is only real useful in player phase because you have to sacrifice your HP with each cast. In enemy phase mages either get killed, or run out of HP for casting.
The improved attack range doesn't really matter because it's only good against other mages who take like no damage. It's useless against bow users because their attack range is automatically three too so they can always counterattack.
Another thing which really angers me is that witches may teleport and attack in the same turn. That means everyone can be killed in every turn. if each of them teleports to attack the same ally.


Bows
It's known that archers tend to be bad in FE, but in this game they were incredubly buffed by their attack range. They have 1-3 attack range. That means they can always counterattack and weak magic users with 1-2 range tomes. They're very annoying to deal with magic users because they will kill you. I think they have 4 or 5 attack range after promotion. Absolutely ridiculous!
Instead of increasing their attack range, just give them better stats.


Terrain
Terrain really affects the game. You have to deal with lots of forest tiles and other terrain which gives you evasion. For some reason buildings give +20% evasion which slows down the game and makes it become a lottery. Idk how often my units missed in Grieth's castle. It really pissed me off after a while. Also Idk why forts give +60%.


Weapon triangle
I know the original hasn't introduced it yet, but why didn't the remake add it? This remake even introduces axes without any purpose aside of make money from it. Enemy fighters / pirates exist so why can't an ally become this class?


Fatigue
After almost 20 years abstinence fatigue made a comeback. I was absolutely happy to see this mechanic returning because it was one of the most interesting ideas in FE, but unfortunately implemented badly in FE5. It was very unbalanced and screwed the player too much. It returned in Echoes, but unfortunately only in dungeons like in Persona 3.
Of course it makes sense because you fight multiple fights in a dungeon in one instead in the world map battles where's a longer break between these fights, but I really would like to see fatigue in a story map too at least for gameplay reason. The more an ally is involved in combat, the sooner it becomes fatigued and loses stats accordingly.


Futher issues:

  • infinite spawning of enemies on the map world without have the possibilty to avoid or cancel the fights
  • inventory only allows to carry one item or weapon for everyone


I guess it's unquestionable that Echoes's plot and character description are great, but gameplaywise it leaves to be desired for someone as me who plays FE because of the gameplay and not because of the story.
And I'm honest playing through Echoes makes me even less want to play Gaiden.
 

 

Edited by アリサ ラインフォルト
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I actually like the "magic using HP" mechanic. I never really liked the fact that you could just put supposedly squishy mages out in the open and let them clean up on Enemy Phase in some FEs. Archers are pretty much the direct counter to mages, though.

I think Bows are more annoying for the player than they are advantageous to use against the enemy, because of the ones you get are generally poor defensively. I think Bows really need this kind of range buff though, as mages tend to take over their roles in more recent FE games due to actual Enemy Phase and hitting Res.

Agree that terrain effects are too dumb.

I actually don't mind the fact that there's no weapon triangle. It was honestly refreshing for some reason.

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In all honestly, a weapon triangle being there or not is really a non-issue.

All a weapon triangle does is give a visual cue to how good a unit will fare against another. Its always the raw stats that determine the outcome of a fight.

I do think terrain bonuses are annoying as hell sometimes, but I personally don't mind any of the changes in gameplay Echoes has. I actually want the magic system to return and same for the changes in bows.

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Witches have different A.I. That stop them from teleport gangbang unit. Mind you that this doesn't stop other enemies from gangbang the enemy weaked by witches or witches target your unit weaked by other enemies. I notice this from the witches spawn map. The first spawn was something like 7 witches...

Arcanists are the real asshole here.

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2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

 I think Bows really need this kind of range buff though

Agreed. In other games, Archers just suck, because not being able to fight back at 1-range can get them killed.

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Witches have different A.I. That stop them from teleport gangbang unit. Mind you that this doesn't stop other enemies from gangbang the enemy weaked by witches or witches target your unit weaked by other enemies. I notice this from the witches spawn map. The first spawn was something like 7 witches...

It's nice for the players, but this merciful as bad A.I. makes no sense to me.
It's nothing else than "fixing" a mistake (giving the enemy the chance to overrun you without being able to counterattack) by an other mistake (dumb A.I. behavior).
It didn't make things better, but only worse.

Edited by アリサ ラインフォルト
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1. I kind of agree with you on magic, especially when you fight a dark mage on a gravestone

2. Archers are good, it's just that you don't get any excellent archers in the game (I blame Takumi fo spoiling us)

3. Terrain bonouses are pretty obnoxus to deal with, but then again you can use it to

4. IDK, it's not neccessary in this game, I guess they don't like axe useres

5. I wish fatiuge set in just a little bit later

6. you can stop spawns on the map by killing the boss, spawns won't start untill you move Alm or Celica on their route for the first time during the act.

7. that's how it was in the original

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Most of these seem like personal issues because a lot of these aren't that big of a problem to me.

Weapon Triangle is fine out. The spread of weapon is pretty bad so it's good that it stayed out. Nearly half of Alm's group uses lances and Celica's group has tons of swords, including all the Priestess. If the WT were to be implemented, the game would need to add at least three playable axe users on each route to find some sort of balance, and at that point, it just loses points as a faithful remake.

And I can't tell how you feel about witches anymore. You said that they get to go around and teleport killing many people off your group. Then, you said that their merciful AI sucks.

I'm playing it on normal though so we might be having two completely different experiences.

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The funny thing about you saying that mages suck on the enemy turn bc they run out of hp for casting is that in my hard/classic run all the way up to and including act 5, that has been a primary tactic of mine. But not with mages- with Clerics. Nosferatu is actually the real deal, even at %60, I've got Genny over here making what she loses back from things like Arcanists (unless they have mire, mind you, but I gave her a mage ring to deal with that.) or summoned enemies. Can't say as much for Silque or Tatiana, but Genny is one of my best magic users. 

With that in mind, I feel like the best way to fairly nerf Magic is to lower the Mt on Seraphim against non-terrors. I generally find myself casting it on basically anything, because of his 'low' HP cost (compared to Excalibur, Ragnarok, Sagittae) for good damage and 90% hit rate. 

 

The Weapon Triangle could have been in this game, but it would have made the game worse. The fact that Witches could do that but don't makes it a non-issue. 

If you don't use lots and lots of provisions for healing, the strategic placing of Mila Shrines and recovery fountains lets you do entire dungeons with fatigue not bothering you, i guess unless you rely on one or two characters to do ALL of the fighting. If you don't go out of your way to fight every enemy, but fight all the ones on your path, the player can certainly make it from the Mila Shrine in Duma Tower to the top. I did, on my first try- granted, about 4 people got fatigued after the last fight in the tower. But it never bothered me.

 

As for Terrain, I agree that 'Tiles' giving you cover is lame. And I think that every enemy you actually WANT to get rid of (like a cantor) is usually on Supplies, making it tough to kill them. I suppose it adds a layer to the game- I now always try to fight from equal or better footing or use magic or arts to ignore it.

I've said it before, but I feel that Archer's Anti-Fliers ability does too little bonus damage. Other than that I'm satisfied with them.

 

In brief, I understand your concerns, but for the most part I don't think there's a whole lot of meat to them. Some of them are actually things I like.

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Just now, KongDude said:

Most of these seem like personal issues because a lot of these aren't that big of a problem to me.

Weapon Triangle is fine out. The spread of weapon is pretty bad so it's good that it stayed out. Nearly half of Alm's group uses lances and Celica's group has tons of swords, including all the Priestess. If the WT were to be implemented, the game would need to add at least three playable axe users on each route to find some sort of balance, and at that point, it just loses points as a faithful remake.

And I can't tell how you feel about witches anymore. You said that they get to go around and teleport killing many people off your group. Then, you said that their merciful AI sucks.

I'm playing it on normal though so we might be having two completely different experiences.

I'm playing on hard, and witches are a little annoying. However, only a couple times have I seen more than one attack the same character. The only times they will do significant damage is if you leave a character with low speed + resistance. However, they will usually do a little less than half of their health. So witches aren't that bad. But in the final battle of Act 5...hoo boy, witches will f*** you up.

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I started my first run on Normal/Classic.

The massive gameplay issues I have are with Cantors. I hand-waved Cantors in Gaiden because Dear/Expel was ridiculously useful. Now that Dear/Expel has been nerfed, Cantors are a humungous pain in the ass. This is due to the fact that all the monsters they summon surround them on the battlefield, making it difficult for my powerful melee units to take them out. I can remedy this when I promote Est, Palla and Catria, but for now, they are an incredibly annoying enemy to face.

I like HP casting mages. I just wish I could assign them a certain spell to counterattack with on enemy phase. Luthier gets doubled often because he defaults to Fire when enemies attack him. I wish he could switch to Excalibur because the spell weighs less and he'd be easier to train. 

I haven't run into any issues with Witches, yet, but knowing how the final battle goes in Gaiden, I know they'll be horrible units to contend with. 

Edited by Leif
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1 hour ago, KongDude said:

And I can't tell how you feel about witches anymore. You said that they get to go around and teleport killing many people off your group. Then, you said that their merciful AI sucks.

Idk how the A.I. works.
I think they haven't gone all for the same unit yet.

However having the knowledge that they can potentially kill any unit freaks me out.
And a bad A.I. can't make up for it.

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Cantors, Witches, Arcanists etc. can all go back to the hellish pit from which they spawned from! It's making Act 4, now that I finally got there, into a right slog! I'm actually really happy I recruited Deen because I can never have enough Dread Fighters on Celica's side. God, I'm starting to miss Awakening (and Fates for the matter)!

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5 hours ago, アリサ ラインフォルト said:

It's nice for the players, but this merciful as bad A.I. makes no sense to me.
It's nothing else than "fixing" a mistake (giving the enemy the chance to overrun you without being able to counterattack) by an other mistake (dumb A.I. behavior).
It didn't make things better, but only worse.

1 Only witches have this behavior and thank got they have this behavior because the witches spawn map will be impossible. How you can handle 7 witches that gangbang one of your unit thank to teleport?

2 The general A.I. work different from other fire emblen. You sure notice some time they do not target the "weakest" enemy, but doesn't mean it's dumb. Just different from usual.

3 At end of act 3 from Celica route and at start of act 4, you sure notice how merciless arcanists and dreadfighter are.

 

i personally don't have issue against cantors. I use them as cheap way to farm skill I urgently need.

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2 hours ago, アリサ ラインフォルト said:

Idk how the A.I. works.
I think they haven't gone all for the same unit yet.

The Devs tried to replicate the old FE2 AI for some reason, which is why alot of it doesn't make sense.

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The Devs tried to replicate the old FE2 AI for some reason, which is why alot of it doesn't make sense.

 Idk how the A.I. was in the original, but in Echoes the witches with teleport are targeting normally different opponents not to kill anyone.

Quote

1 Only witches have this behavior and thank got they have this behavior because the witches spawn map will be impossible. How you can handle 7 witches that gangbang one of your unit thank to teleport?

Of course no one can except for res. tanks.

However it kinda kills the point of having the teleport stave.
Then just let them appear somewhere else close to the starting team without teleport where they can attack someone in the first enemy phase.
Or do it like in FE5 where they can't rewarp and attack in the same turn.
The teleport stave is fake-difficulty to me.


In general I still don't know how the exact targeting of the witches. In one chapter two witches teleported and attacked the same unit deadly.
However in most cases they choose different targets.
 

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Wouldn't the addition of a weapons triangle actually be a bit unfair, given the Zofian forces doesn't even utilize axes?  It'd make it too easy to mow down pirate hordes in the Celica route, and would be an absolute bitch for lance users in either route, wouldn't it?

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4 minutes ago, Selena4Lyfe said:

Wouldn't the addition of a weapons triangle actually be a bit unfair, given the Zofian forces doesn't even utilize axes?  It'd make it too easy to mow down pirate hordes in the Celica route, and would be an absolute bitch for lance users in either route, wouldn't it?

Yeah I agree, I think having the triangle would add more issues and not solve anything.

Also with Witches teleportation, its literally RNG if they move or teleport.

Edited by Jedi
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2 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Yeah I agree, I think having the triangle would add more issues and not solve anything.

Also with Witches teleportation, its literally RNG if they move or teleport.

I like to think the RNG in that case is whether or not the witches are feeling suicidal or not.  Lukas did say that there was little left of who they once were.  I like to imagine some of the witches have gained just enough control of themselves to wish to off themselves.  Huh.  Maybe that control of the senses is what helps them decide not to gangbang individual characters as アリサ ラインフォルト has said.  lol

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I noticed afterwards that adding weapon triangle would be pointless, simply because you don't have to deal with axes later on anymore.
Apparently pirate is the only representing axe class in the game which doesn't have a promotion.
After act 3 you don't have to fight any axe users anymore.

It's similar to FE11 where you don't fight axe users in lategame so swordusers have a significant disadvantage.

Still if axe classes were introduced in Echoes, a physical weapon triangle would make sense.


I don't want to argue about the map design, but some maps are really borderline to me.

An example is Jedah's map. He summons tons of these eyeballs (or whatever they are) which are fast and powerful. The awkward terrain with all the miasma makes it a bitch to fight them.

Or chapters where you have to walk around of a building with the width of one space. It slows you down and makes it annyoing to fight enemies.

Have told enough about terrain yet.

However complaining about the map design is invalid since it's still a remake. Would be weird to change the map layout in a remake.

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Magic - Magic is changed due to the effects of Terrain. Overall, Magic would be in an okay place, but those Arcanists with Mire are rather annoying to deal with (but doable). As for Witches, ever since I learned their teleportation pattern (they tend to target the outside of your formation), I would A: not field low level units when Witches are around, and B: put High RES units on the outer edge of the formation when possible. Witches suck due to the RNG, but I haven't experienced a Witch Sniper and I'm halfway through Chapter 4.

Terrain - Terrain "sucks" because in Echoes, the terrain naturally favors the enemy most of the time. This makes some sense because the player is almost always on the offensive and attacking enemies on their home territory, whether it be laying siege to a fortress or crossing the desert. If there were some defensive maps, I'm sure players would appreciate the Terrain a bit more.

Honestly, the main problem I have with terrain is the downtime when dealing with lava, swamps, and the desert. The bonuses themselves are easily bypassed with a magic user.

Bows - I've been using Tobin and Leon a lot and they are acting like Legolas for me as they easily take out enemy archers and even a mage or two when needed. Enemy archers are annoying to deal with (especially when fielding fliers), but are otherwise manageable with a good defensive front line unit or a counter Archer.

Weapon Triangle - It is not added due to the Terrain & Magic synergy going for Gaiden. Honestly, I do not mind its absence.

Fatigue - I haven't really experienced this mechanic in dungeons because I do not stick around to grind, but maybe it'll start making a difference in the marathon ones near endgame or the postgame dungeon. I don't mind Fatigue, but given the choice I rather be without it. Let me use what units I want. Fun and enjoyment is more important than realism in this case, at least for me.

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Yeah, Genny has earned her name of Little Miss Invincible for a reason. Magic is INSANELY strong in this game, HP drain notwithstanding.

Seriously, though, I really don't mind the slightly archaric mechanics. You make some good points, but those don't really bother me as much. I like that enemy mages use HP for their attacks, too, so you can plan around that and make them non-issues with careful attack patterns (which is the only way to save Delthea, ironically).

The weapon triangle wasn't needed, to be honest, as you don't have access to Axe users and thus would always be screwed against lances. And Gold Knights are Demonic Spiders enough as it is.

The one thing that does bug me a little bit are the more than a little shitty growth rates. I heard it was worse in the original, but holy hell, people. Get some stats. That actually caused me to restart completely once because Alm and half his gang couldn't make it past the fight after the Necrodragon's in Act 4 and they just kept on dying and dying and dying. The only reliable characters I had at that time were Faye and Delthea. Man, Celica definitely has the better team in terms of stat growths. Hell, Celica herself is probably the best unit in the entire game.

And, superior range aside, Archers aren't that good, either. They tend to miss quite often for me and their damage output is... less than stellar, shall we say. Same goes for the enemy. I'm not sad about this, however. I've never been big on Bow users in any game that has them (aside from Stella Glow where one of the bow users is arguably the second best character in the game, both personality-wise and overall usefulness) and after I've heard about their insane range in Echoes, I was afraid that all fliers would become unusable. Luckily, I erred quite a bit here, so good on you, game.

And it may be a bit off-topic, but can I just say that I absolutely adore the art design in this game? Everything looks so gosh darn pretty. I really like that they put a damper on fanservice, too.

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Fatigue in this game seems to be mostly ignorable if you use your team evenly. If you use Saber to clear out 3 groups of enemies single-handedly, he's going to get fatigued. Honestly, as long as you don't clutch hard on a single unit Fatigue will barely have an impact outside of the last Dungeon or two. If you also know what foods the unit likes (Saber seems to like meats, Mae likes sweets, etc.) then it's even less of a problem. Even when you go all-out grind mode it isn't that big of a deal.

I kind of like it, mostly because it makes me feel like I need to plan ahead with foods and the like, even though I had a metric shit-ton of it by the end. It also discourages you from screwing around longer than you need to.

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I seriously do not see why some people don't like this game. How the skirmishes are handled makes perfect sense, it makes sense to me that if you are at war with a nation that they would send troops after you. I like how magic works because of how it works you know that if a mage attacks you, you are going to get hit terrain is not going to help you one iota. Mages should feel like a threat to be taken seriously and in this game they do. I love the bow range archers should have a high range they have a bow which can out shoot range wise a spear or something of that nature. The accuracy I feel has been increased a little compared to Gaiden, also forging bows improves the accuracy additionally. In short I disagree with all the criticisms that were mentioned in regards to axes well in the original the thieves always looked like they had axes but that was it for axes.

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