Part 4 Celica?? (Spoilers)

[Caster]

Part 4 in this game, specifically on Celica's side, really bugged me, and I really am not sure what the writers were trying to do with this.

It comes out of nowhere and Celica acts SO MUCH out of character from how she was in parts 2 and 3.
The beginning of part 3 didn't bug me at all, I actually kind of liked it, considering that's a fairly human reaction, but I really don't understand what's up with her in part 4.
Would anyone care to explain to me what exactly was supposed to be the point of Celica acting like this, because I really don't understand.

This also extends into part 5, obviously, but still.

This is actually the only part of the game plotwise that seriously baffles me, and I really don't get it.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

There is no point. They just needed an excuse to have Celica get saved lol. It's supposed to play into her naivety and how she internalizes all her problems and tells no one, but it's not executed well at all.

[Armagon]

So Jedah basically blackmails and tricks Celica into sacrificing her soul. The same thing happens in Gaiden, except Alm saved Celica before she was sacrificed.

[Caster]

7 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

There is no point. They just needed an excuse to have Celica get saved lol. It's supposed to play into her naivety and how she internalizes all her problems and tells no one, but it's not executed well at all.

Sadly, I thought as much, which is a shame, considering I was really enjoying her character prior, but I really just can't stand her in part 4 at all.

3 minutes ago, Armagon said:

So Jedah basically blackmails and tricks Celica into sacrificing her soul. The same thing happens in Gaiden, except Alm saved Celica before she was sacrificed.

Well, I know that much, I played the game.
Although I don't remember that exactly happening in Gaiden, but that's probably more because I didn't remember those 2 specific sentences when I played it.
I always remembered it as Celica refusing and standing ground and fighting to survive until Alm arrived, but I'm willing to accept I'm probably incorrect since it's been years since I've touched Gaiden.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 minute ago, Sophie said:

Sadly, I thought as much, which is a shame, considering I was really enjoying her character prior, but I really just can't stand her in part 4 at all.

Same here (as you can probably tell). In my tiny mind I pretend none of it happened and Celica is the best thing.

[Etrurian emperor]

I don't entirely mind. I certainly could have gone without Celica going ''Oh, none of you could possibly know how I feel'' like a drama queen but I think there's a certain someone who helps make it all a lot better.

And that's, surprisingly enough Jedah. He's actually quite reasonable about the whole thing, as reasonable as someone can be when doing blackmail with a hostage god on the line. He spells out to Celica why her soul is so important, how it will all come to a happy end if she goes along with him and that yes, him and his priest going to have their way the hard way if Celica doesn't agree. It helps that he goes into detail about why he thinks this is needed.
Now I haven't played the entirety of the story yet but Jedah seems honest enough regarding his motives at least. Him saying Mila and Duma are doomed to degeneration fits in neatly with the dragon lore of Archenea. Letting Alm and Mila off the hook gotta be a lie though.

[SuperIb]

I think they overdid it with her just a little bit, but otherwise I didn't mind much. What bugged me was how she was a bit unfair to her party in regards to her saying that they wouldn't understand and what-not, especially after all they went through and how Saber commented on how it seems like she doesn't trust them with Celica being all like, "I totes trust you bb." But yeah, I pretty much agree with what emperor said.

[NoNameAtAll]

Gonna say that Jedah played Celica far better here than in Gaiden originally.

"Hey girl, I'mma make you watch Alm suffer"

...Which really meant I'm going to make him fight three waves of Necrodragons which are easy by this point. After that, he leads her and the army to the bottom of Duma tower and they're pretty much fucked because they're in the final map and are cornered by mogalls (Which is why the unit arrangement is how it is even in Echoes).

In Echoes, Celica sees Alm fight Rudolf and ultimately kill him. Jedah by that point banished the rest of Celica's army to below Duma tower. No one was there to talk reason to her. And she also saw Alm's pained cry at his unwitting patricide. So while Celica's army is getting chased around by terrors (mogalls), Celica's despairing due to what Jedah made her see and the words he tells her.

[Sentinel07]

I honestly didn't mind it at all.

One thing that the game is pretty consistent with is that Celica really has a problem with letting others in, including her friends. As a noble, she thinks she alone should bear the weight of events like this, and that commoners (which includes her friends) shouldn't have to deal with them.

And I also agree with one of the other posters here that Jedah is...surprisingly detailed for a dark sorcerer. He really went into detail as to why she was needed, and a lot of what he said was actually true. He only really lied about letting Alm and her friends off the hook.

[Dolce]

Celica in the argument with Alm, and in Part 4, really bothered me in general as well. She's a great unit but this nearly ruined her character for me.

I think part of it was caused by Celica basically thinking of Mila as a panacea for all of Zofia's problems which is why she went to the temple in the first place (I think, I didn't pay much attention to this part in the story), so when she hears that only a brand-bearing soul can save Mila, she's really torn. But I'm pretty surprised that she actually listened to a word Jedah said, even if he gave her a lot of reasons to sacrifice her soul.

[Sentinel07]

17 minutes ago, Dolce said:

Celica in the argument with Alm, and in Part 4, really bothered me in general as well. She's a great unit but this nearly ruined her character for me.

I think part of it was caused by Celica basically thinking of Mila as a panacea for all of Zofia's problems which is why she went to the temple in the first place (I think, I didn't pay much attention to this part in the story), so when she hears that only a brand-bearing soul can save Mila, she's really torn. But I'm pretty surprised that she actually listened to a word Jedah said, even if he gave her a lot of reasons to sacrifice her soul.

Thing is, that's kind of something that all Zofians are taught to believe: that Mila is a panacea for everything. As a priestess, Celica likely held these beliefs close to her chest. 

She believed that Mila really could save everyone, so in her mind, even the slightest chance of Jedah being truthful and getting Mila back was probably justified.

[JDtheBA]

3 hours ago, Sentinel07 said:

Thing is, that's kind of something that all Zofians are taught to believe: that Mila is a panacea for everything. As a priestess, Celica likely held these beliefs close to her chest. 

She believed that Mila really could save everyone, so in her mind, even the slightest chance of Jedah being truthful and getting Mila back was probably justified.

This is what I thought as well. Alm was raised by mycen, a regalian, so he doesn't have those traits. Celica is more self centered, thinking she can do it without anyone. And when she accepts her princesshood, she puts even more pressure on herself to the point where she can't think straight. She only has one goal, and that's to bring mila back. She ignores others because she thinks it'll save them. And that's her flaw.

[Slumber]

Basically, Nomah was a far worse teacher when it came to teaching Celica life skills than Mycen was with Alm.

Celica's super naive, and completely devoted to Mila. Like everyone mentioned, she was certain Mila could fix everything, and that bringing her back would end the war and bring peace. She was wrong.

It's kind of funny to see the game reinforce the Rigelian/Duma philosophy of "Might makes right". Words and prayer don't work, only a lot of killing and stabbing dragons through the head.

[Ninferno]

On 5/26/2017 at 6:06 AM, Sophie said:

I always remembered it as Celica refusing and standing ground and fighting to survive until Alm arrived, but I'm willing to accept I'm probably incorrect since it's been years since I've touched Gaiden.

You aren't imagining things and your memory about Gaiden is mostly correct. SoV does change this particular part of story quite a bit and IS is clearly trying very hard to give a reason for the  "boy saves his girl" cliche. In Gaiden, it's all good old NES minimalistic dialogues but here in SoV there's certainly giving more details. However, while I appreciate their efforts, I have to say it's still as anti-climatic as Gaiden was because it doesn't really change what was bothering me. This "you won a battle but the game story tells you otherwise" kind of thing always bugs me; it just creates so much psychological dissatisfaction.

 

I absolutely love SoV and what it improves over Gaiden but I'm still a bit disappointed by this one particular remaining issue. Like someone in this forum has pointed out, the game is so one-sided towards the end that it loses the balance between the two parts, two ideologies and ends up giving us a "one side is right and other is wrong" feeling. It's a shame because it could have been so much more than this.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Ninferno

[avbitran]

I think Celica's Character arc is that of a religious fundamentalist turning secular. when she studied to become priestess her world views and identity were shaping and it is not something that is so easy to sober up from, even when the counter evidence is banging your head. 

[Person with good opinions]

I found it quite amusing how Jedah says something along the lines of "How naive a fool can you possibly be?" Even the blatantly evil and manipulative villain is astonished at just how easy this idiot is making it for him.

[Armagon]

What happend in Act 4 with Celica is basically just kinda a repeat of what happend with Eirika in Sacred Stones, really. Both were naive and believed the villian, convinced that they had even the tiniest hope in saving someone (Celica saving Mila and Alm, Eirika saving Lyon).

[Sire]

Since I finally beaten the game, here are my thoughts on Celica and why she is swayed during Part 4.

1. She is a devoted Priestess of Mila and is taught that Mila practically solves everything. As this is one of her core beliefs, it is easy why she would rely on Mila so much.

2. Celica's entire mission revolves on Mila. Her first objective is to go to the Temple of Mila and inquire on why the crops were doing poorly. Upon discovering Mila is missing, Celica's new mission is to bring Mila back to Zofia. Apparently she will do this by any means necessary, even if it means sacrificing herself.

3. Celica has been mostly isolated and in hiding for the majority of her life. While she is supposedly intelligent enough to ward off assassins, she is still rather naive in the fact she always tries the diplomatic solution even if it is hopeless (See Celica trying to negotiate with Pirates in Part 2, even Saber says that is a lost cause). She is reeled in by her companions, but when left alone she may make poor judgements...

4. Celica believes sacrificing herself will save Zofia from drought since Mila should return and give the lands her blessing. More importantly, she would save Alm (who she saw get killed in a vision) since she loves and cares for him. When Jedah also explains how it will help Rigel and Valentia as a whole, Celica has a further reason to sacrifice herself for the masses as it should stop the bloodshed and make "everything happily ever after." (Of course, this was too good of a generous offer, but the seed of doubt was placed in Celica's mind as soon as she learned of it. That gnawed away at her until she finally broke.)

5. When Celica finally turns, it is because of two main reasons. A: Her companions are not around to slap her out of it, and B: Celica relents under "torture" because she is seeing visions of Alm suffering as he finishes the fight with Rigel. This is especially the case after seeing Alm kill Rudof. She does not want to see any more suffering and places her hopes entirely on Mila's return. When one breaks and falls into despair, one will turn to anything that is a source of comfort, even if it is an unhealthy decision or a lie. Celica chose to put her faith in Jedah's deal which will prove to be her downfall. (Luckily Alm is around to save the day and have everything become sunshine and rainbows, but that is not the point of this topic.)

* * * * *

Now, while I can understand why Celica goes to the dark side at the end of Chapter 4, a part of me is still not really buying why she started considering the deal in the first place. Maybe she was thoroughly convinced that her sacrifice was the only way to do things and there were no alternatives?

[Sentinel07]

6 hours ago, Sire said:

Since I finally beaten the game, here are my thoughts on Celica and why she is swayed during Part 4.

1. She is a devoted Priestess of Mila and is taught that Mila practically solves everything. As this is one of her core beliefs, it is easy why she would rely on Mila so much.

2. Celica's entire mission revolves on Mila. Her first objective is to go to the Temple of Mila and inquire on why the crops were doing poorly. Upon discovering Mila is missing, Celica's new mission is to bring Mila back to Zofia. Apparently she will do this by any means necessary, even if it means sacrificing herself.

3. Celica has been mostly isolated and in hiding for the majority of her life. While she is supposedly intelligent enough to ward off assassins, she is still rather naive in the fact she always tries the diplomatic solution even if it is hopeless (See Celica trying to negotiate with Pirates in Part 2, even Saber says that is a lost cause). She is reeled in by her companions, but when left alone she may make poor judgements...

4. Celica believes sacrificing herself will save Zofia from drought since Mila should return and give the lands her blessing. More importantly, she would save Alm (who she saw get killed in a vision) since she loves and cares for him. When Jedah also explains how it will help Rigel and Valentia as a whole, Celica has a further reason to sacrifice herself for the masses as it should stop the bloodshed and make "everything happily ever after." (Of course, this was too good of a generous offer, but the seed of doubt was placed in Celica's mind as soon as she learned of it. That gnawed away at her until she finally broke.)

5. When Celica finally turns, it is because of two main reasons. A: Her companions are not around to slap her out of it, and B: Celica relents under "torture" because she is seeing visions of Alm suffering as he finishes the fight with Rigel. This is especially the case after seeing Alm kill Rudof. She does not want to see any more suffering and places her hopes entirely on Mila's return. When one breaks and falls into despair, one will turn to anything that is a source of comfort, even if it is an unhealthy decision or a lie. Celica chose to put her faith in Jedah's deal which will prove to be her downfall. (Luckily Alm is around to save the day and have everything become sunshine and rainbows, but that is not the point of this topic.)

* * * * *

Now, while I can understand why Celica goes to the dark side at the end of Chapter 4, a part of me is still not really buying why she started considering the deal in the first place. Maybe she was thoroughly convinced that her sacrifice was the only way to do things and there were no alternatives?

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Well said indeed.

And yeah, I do think she absolutely convinced herself that sacrifice was the only way for anything to work, even with Jedah throwing out his evil plans into the open. Like you said, I think she pretty much just broke, wanting for the conflict to just end already.

[mikethepokemaster]

18 hours ago, Ninferno said:

You aren't imagining things and your memory about Gaiden is mostly correct. SoV does change this particular part of story quite a bit and IS is clearly trying very hard to give a reason for the  "boy saves his girl" cliche. In Gaiden, it's all good old NES minimalistic dialogues but here in SoV there's certainly giving more details. However, while I appreciate their efforts, I have to say it's still as anti-climatic as Gaiden was because it doesn't really change what was bothering me. This "you won a battle but the game story tells you otherwise" kind of thing always bugs me; it just creates so much physiological dissatisfaction.

 

I absolutely love SoV and what it improves over Gaiden but I'm still a bit disappointed by this one particular remaining issue. Like someone in this forum has pointed out, the game is so one-sided towards the end that it loses the balance between the two parts, two ideologies and ends up giving us a "one side is right and other is wrong" feeling. It's a shame because it could have been so much more than this.

Yeah I don't IS is good at whole grey area they did better here but they still put Alm in the right. Like in Fates how it suppose to show the grey of both Nohr and Hoshido it doesnt, it mostly paint the conflict black and white.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

11 hours ago, Armagon said:

What happend in Act 4 with Celica is basically just kinda a repeat of what happend with Eirika in Sacred Stones, really. Both were naive and believed the villian, convinced that they had even the tiniest hope in saving someone (Celica saving Mila and Alm, Eirika saving Lyon).

The difference however for Eirika is that at least it's more understandable given that Lyon was seeming still in there fighting to win back control of his body and trying to help in the crisis once he could have the demon king at bay enough to share information, but alas the the demon king is just letting Lyon think he can win his body or at least enough to shut him off for a time to make it all the more convincing for Eirika. It's only until when the demon king pulls that giving Lyon the Sacred Stone stunt to save him that the harsh reality of her best friend is really gone comes crashing down.

 

Quite frankly I think Celica is even more dumb than Eirika (who I think is more justified like I explained for mistake) and even freaking Corrin because at least they were sheltered and pampered their entire life. I mean just my god Celica has no reason to trust Jedah what so ever. I still like Celica, but it's for other things when I favorite/rank a character for myself, but she is not surpassing Eirika at all for me.

Edited May 27, 2017 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

The difference however for Eirika is that at least it's more understandable given that Lyon was seeming still in there fighting to win back control of his body and trying to help in the crisis once he could have the demon king at bay enough to share information, but alas the the demon king is just letting Lyon think he is putting up a fight for his body to make it all the more convincing for Eirika. It's only until when the demon king pulls that giving Lyon the Sacred Stone stunt to save him that the harsh reality of her best friend is really gone comes crashing down.

 

Quite frankly I think Celica is even more dumb than Eirika (who I think is more justified like I explained for mistake) and even freaking Corrin because at least they were sheltered and pampered their entire life. I mean just my god Celica has no reason to trust Jedah what so ever (I still like Celica, but it's for other things when I favorite/rank a character for myself).

At the end of the day though, both Eirika's and Celica's intentions were still basically the same. It's just that, in Celica's case, she was also forced to watch Alm suffer from killing his own father, which made her further believe that sacrificing her soul would save Alm and everyone in Valentia.

I really don't see the issue with Celica being dumb and naive in Act 4 tbh. People bashed on Corrin for having flaws yet never suffering the consequences from said flaws. Then Celica has flaws and she suffers the consequences for having said flaws and people complain? Guys, make up your mind.

[maybe]

10 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

The difference however for Eirika is that at least it's more understandable given that Lyon was seeming still in there fighting to win back control of his body and trying to help in the crisis once he could have the demon king at bay enough to share information, but alas the the demon king is just letting Lyon think he can win his body or at least enough to shut him off for a time to make it all the more convincing for Eirika. It's only until when the demon king pulls that giving Lyon the Sacred Stone stunt to save him that the harsh reality of her best friend is really gone comes crashing down.

 

Quite frankly I think Celica is even more dumb than Eirika (who I think is more justified like I explained for mistake) and even freaking Corrin because at least they were sheltered and pampered their entire life. I mean just my god Celica has no reason to trust Jedah what so ever. I still like Celica, but it's for other things when I favorite/rank a character for myself, but she is not surpassing Eirika at all for me.

now I don't disagree but

celica was sheltered for pretty much her whole life too

so i'd say she's on about the same level as corrin

2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

At the end of the day though, both Eirika's and Celica's intentions were still basically the same. It's just that, in Celica's case, she was also forced to watch Alm suffer from killing his own father, which made her further believe that sacrificing her soul would save Alm and everyone in Valentia.

I really don't see the issue with Celica being dumb and naive in Act 4 tbh. People bashed on Corrin for having flaws yet never suffering the consequences from said flaws. Then Celica has flaws and she suffers the consequences for having said flaws and people complain? Guys, make up your mind.

don't assume that the people who dislike corrin for those reasons are the same ones who dislike celica 

but even then, just because a character has flaws and said flaws cause consequences, that doesn't necessarily make them a good character

corrin's flaws are poorly handled because corrin never develops out of them nor do they have any meaningful impact on the story. they make him less compelling of a character rather than a more compelling one. the most they can do is make you either pity or be frustrated with corrin.

with celica, her flaws do affect her, but it's still not in a meaningful way. not only does she never develop out of them or in spite of them, but the one time they matter is in a moment where all it leads to is alm having to save her. it doesn't do anything for her character, all it does is set up the end of the game.

Edited May 27, 2017 by unique

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

47 minutes ago, unique said:

now I don't disagree but

celica was sheltered for pretty much her whole life too

so i'd say she's on about the same level as corrin

I would not say as much given that Corrin's memories of their time in Hoshido were erased. Celica was sheltered sure, however not nearly as much because at least when Mycen took her in she was able to go around the village as she liked and even when she's taken to Nomah I think it was just up to not being able to go out to sea from what I recall according to Boey and Mae's conversation, but do correct me if I'm wrong. Corrin was trapped in the tower for a long time with only that one occasion where Silas took them out which is far less time than what Celica had with her stay in Ram village.

49 minutes ago, Armagon said:

At the end of the day though, both Eirika's and Celica's intentions were still basically the same. It's just that, in Celica's case, she was also forced to watch Alm suffer from killing his own father, which made her further believe that sacrificing her soul would save Alm and everyone in Valentia.

I really don't see the issue with Celica being dumb and naive in Act 4 tbh. People bashed on Corrin for having flaws yet never suffering the consequences from said flaws. Then Celica has flaws and she suffers the consequences for having said flaws and people complain? Guys, make up your mind.

Like I said at least Eirika trusts her old best friend and rightfully so given their past history where as Celica actually believes Judah will hold his end of bargain who has made it clear that without a shadow of a doubt he wants to do nothing but harm given their past encounters. Also I myself wasn't as critical towards Corrin in Conquest so I was more understanding of their situation and I still remember when someone told me that Takumi shouldn't have to apologize and that he was in the right which he freaking wasn't (sure justified to be angry with Nohr) as he wanted to not just slay Nohrian soldiers even if their were certainly some who deserved death but some who are actually redeemable good people (mixing bad apples with good apples) but anyone who is associated with Nohr so that even means civilians and don't get me wrong I understand that he had the "influence" making his anger and malice intensify, but he still lost some of his morality along the way even before then which by all rights that's how war can be especially when you're on the side that was attacked.

Edited May 27, 2017 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Thane]

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

I really don't see the issue with Celica being dumb and naive in Act 4 tbh.

It gets worse in chapter five though. I'll place some spoilers for those who haven't gotten there yet.

Spoiler

Jedah: "The hour is come for the world of man to return to the gods' control! It is the dawn of an age of fear and chaos, cradled in Duma's shadow!"

Later he says: "She does this for the sake of Rigel and Zofia's people both."

And she says there's no other way. Jedah has tried killing her friends and flat out says he'll try to envelop the world in fear and chaos, and Celica agrees to helping him out with that. It's really, really dumb.