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Hello everyone.

This thread will contain unmarked endgame spoilers for the plot of Echoes. Please turn back now if you haven't finished the game.

There are several things about Rudolf and his plot that I want to discuss in order to get people's opinion on it, While it has been known - and oftentimes ridiculed - for a long time, I want to know if I've missed some important detail that makes his plan easier to understand.

First of all, do you buy his motivations and methods? Because while I can understand hiding Alm because of his Brand, and that the Duma Faithful would assassinate him, I don't understand why he needs to seal Mila first in order to make Zofia stand up to Rigel and then kill Duma, when the country got close to imploding. Why didn't he start with sealing Duma, who was closer and he had seen become more and more crazed? Mila seems to be fine when we meet her later on, so was she sane when he went for her? I'm not quite sure why he took the obvious detour and placed all his eggs in Zofia's basket.

Secondly, why did he have to die? I mean, if Alm's a hero who has reached him, hasn't he passed whatever test Rudolf had planned for him? Why doesn't he offer to make peace with Alm and then tell him everything worth knowing?

I'm not sure I've read everything worth knowing about him in English, so I might've missed something during my Japanese playthrough. However, to me, it looks like his whole plan is still really, really shaky an full of questionable elements.

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37 minutes ago, Thane said:

Secondly, why did he have to die? I mean, if Alm's a hero who has reached him, hasn't he passed whatever test Rudolf had planned for him? Why doesn't he offer to make peace with Alm and then tell him everything worth knowing?

Because his methods are brutal and the people would not simply accept a surrender from this man. Presumably, he doesn't want to Alm to be burderned with the decision after knowing their relation. Alm killing him while he still thinks Rudolf is a tyrant is a mercy. The game says as much.

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33 minutes ago, Thane said:

First of all, do you buy his motivations and methods? Because while I can understand hiding Alm because of his Brand, and that the Duma Faithful would assassinate him, I don't understand why he needs to seal Mila first in order to make Zofia stand up to Rigel and then kill Duma, when the country got close to imploding. Why didn't he start with sealing Duma, who was closer and he had seen become more and more crazed? Mila seems to be fine when we meet her later on, so was she sane when he went for her? I'm not quite sure why he took the obvious detour and placed all his eggs in Zofia's basket.

Sealing Duma first would have just backfired. Jedah wanted Duma cured of his madness but left unsealed and dominant over Valentia, and Rudolf needed Jedah ostensibly on his side. The Duma Faithful, as we see in-game, are numerous and powerful, to the point where they can interfere and integrate with the Rigelian army with little issue. If they turned against Rudolf, there's no guarantee that Rigel's army would have been able to win that fight, and Rudolf's plan would have fallen apart. 

33 minutes ago, Thane said:

Secondly, why did he have to die? I mean, if Alm's a hero who has reached him, hasn't he passed whatever test Rudolf had planned for him? Why doesn't he offer to make peace with Alm and then tell him everything worth knowing?

Rudolf was already despised among the Zofians, who know he's responsible for the sealing of Mila, and even among the Rigelians his popularity seems shaky. While it would have been nice to keep him alive so poor Alm could have at least one living blood relative, him living would have only caused problems in the long run.

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His plan is basically the Zero Requiem from Code Geass; he wanted to gather all of the world's hate onto himself by being a cruel king on purpose, so that when he dies people will be happy. Of course, that's just part of it.

I think if he went about with sealing Duma, it would actually cause an uproar. The general public doesn't know that Duma is going crazy, so their already cruel king sealing the nation's patron god is basically a death sentence for himself. Even if the Duma Faithful lose the power to stand up against him, I think it's very likely it would cause a rebellion and civil war. Rigel will end up torn apart, and Rudolf won't really get the chance to seal Mila, both because he'll have his hands full with his country's problems, and because Mila, still sentient, would notice that Duma is gone and be wary. I don't think it'll end well.

Like I said, he wanted to die so that the world would lose a hated figure, so I guess that's why he didn't back off from Alm. To be honest, I think that part's okay, as long as we operate under the mindset that his plan works.

Edited by SatsumaFSoysoy
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2 minutes ago, RJWalker said:

Because his methods are brutal and the people would not simply accept a surrender from this man. Presumably, he doesn't want to Alm to be burderned with the decision after knowing their relation. Alm killing him while he still thinks Rudolf is a tyrant is a mercy. The game says as much.

 

1 minute ago, AzureSen said:

Rudolf was already despised among the Zofians, who know he's responsible for the sealing of Mila, and even among the Rigelians his popularity seems shaky. While it would have been nice to keep him alive so poor Alm could have at least one living blood relative, him living would have only caused problems in the long run.

While fair, wouldn't he want to see his plan through to the end? He's a powerful man with even more powerful influence; I'm pretty sure someone like him would've come in handy while charging Duma. Not to mention he seems to be one of the most knowledgeable about him, barring the Faithful. I'm not saying people would forgive him after that, but he could at least somewhat redeem himself before falling in combat.

3 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

Sealing Duma first would have just backfired. Jedah wanted Duma cured of his madness but left unsealed and dominant over Valentia, and Rudolf needed Jedah ostensibly on his side. The Duma Faithful, as we see in-game, are numerous and powerful, to the point where they can interfere and integrate with the Rigelian army with little issue. If they turned against Rudolf, there's no guarantee that Rigel's army would have been able to win that fight, and Rudolf's plan would have fallen apart. 

But if the Rigelian army can' stand up to them, what guarantee does Rudolf have that the Zofians can? Zofia's military is much weaker and less disciplined. 

3 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I think if he went about with sealing Duma, it would actually cause an uproar. The general public doesn't know that Duma is going crazy, so their already cruel king sealing the nation's patron god is basically a death sentence for himself. Even if the Duma Faithful lose the power to stand up against him, I think it's very likely it would cause a rebellion and civil war. Rigel will end up torn apart, and Rudolf won't really get the chance to seal Mila, both because he'll have his hands full with his country's problems, and because Mila, still sentient, would notice that Duma is gone and be wary. I don't think it'll end well.

Two things: he still subjected Zofia to this, and it was Zofia he entrusted to actually finish the job with Duma. Then, why exactly couldn't he hatch a plan for Alm to seal Mila later? I mean, if she even needed it; as far as we know, she doesn't do anything bad in the game aside from granting gifts. Even if she were on a timer, it seems like it would've still been time to do something about her in a less brutal way.

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Just now, Thane said:

But if the Rigelian army can' stand up to them, what guarantee does Rudolf have that the Zofians can? Zofia's military is much weaker and less disciplined. 

Even if theoretically the Rigelian army could win against the Duma Faithful without causing a massive drain on resources that would completely stall the invasion of Zofia, that doesn't really protect Rudolf from possible assassination attempts. Rudolf is, Angel Ring aside, a normal dude with the normal dude weaknesses of magic to the face or a well-placed knife to the ribs. The Duma Faithful have a leader who is for all intents and purposes invincible, and are capable of summoning armies of magical creatures and teleportation, and the sword Rudolf needs to enact his plan is kept by their god, who they keep in the depths of their well-protected sanctuary. The second they get wind of any plans by Rudolf to take action against Duma, Rudolf is a dead man.

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2 minutes ago, Thane said:

Two things: he still subjected Zofia to this, and it was Zofia he entrusted to actually finish the job with Duma. Then, why exactly couldn't he hatch a plan for Alm to seal Mila later? I mean, if she even needed it; as far as we know, she doesn't do anything bad in the game aside from granting gifts. Even if she were on a timer, it seems like it would've still been time to do something about her in a less brutal way.

Desaix had been planning his own agenda for ages, even without Rigelian support. It's more like helping Desaix was convenient for Rudolf imo, since he needed Rigel to antagonize Alm.

But how could he convince his Zofia-raised son, as well as an entire army of Zofians, including priests and priestesses dedicated to the faith of Mila, to turn against her for no reason? Mila was still doing fine, and everyone loved her. Alm trying to seal Mila would completely discredit him in the eyes of basically everyone around him, even Celica, so I'm not sure what kind of gambit he could pull off here, especially if Rudolf wanted Alm to be seen in a good light by the continent.

Mila herself clearly doesn't want to be sealed, either. She fought back against Rudolf, and sealed the Falchion into stone as she was struck down. If Mila learnt that Duma was sealed, that'd probably be the first step in driving her to madness. The Mila faction would still remain loyal to her until she does something extremely drastic, however, I'm pretty sure. Wouldn't it just be the same story as the Duma Faithful?

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I'd just like to point out that Mila did nothing about Lima being the sort of king that he was for...how long exactly? That is at least a decade of inaction on her part while his reign is specifically stated to have been full of rebellions by one of the Ram villagers. Now to mention the crazed look in her eyes when she looses her cool. The global effect of draconic degeneration was clearly getting to her if she didn't consider the specifics of the state of Zofia (as in, she only bothered to keep the land fertile but she didn't give a damn about the ruiling king's debauchery) outside of her temple to be worth her time.

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14 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

Even if theoretically the Rigelian army could win against the Duma Faithful without causing a massive drain on resources that would completely stall the invasion of Zofia, that doesn't really protect Rudolf from possible assassination attempts. Rudolf is, Angel Ring aside, a normal dude with the normal dude weaknesses of magic to the face or a well-placed knife to the ribs. The Duma Faithful have a leader who is for all intents and purposes invincible, and are capable of summoning armies of magical creatures and teleportation, and the sword Rudolf needs to enact his plan is kept by their god, who they keep in the depths of their well-protected sanctuary. The second they get wind of any plans by Rudolf to take action against Duma, Rudolf is a dead man.

While all good points, I can't help but feel this applies to Alm as well. He's not immune to a dagger to the kidneys from a teleporting lunatic any more than Rudolf is. As for the sword, how did Rudolf even know Alm would be able to use it after Mila sealed it away inside of herself? 

 

14 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

But how could he convince his Zofia-raised son, as well as an entire army of Zofians, including priests and priestesses dedicated to the faith of Mila, to turn against her for no reason? Mila was still doing fine, and everyone loved her. Alm trying to seal Mila would completely discredit him in the eyes of basically everyone around him, even Celica, so I'm not sure what kind of gambit he could pull off here, especially if Rudolf wanted Alm to be seen in a good light by the continent.

Mila herself clearly doesn't want to be sealed, either. She fought back against Rudolf, and sealed the Falchion into stone as she was struck down. If Mila learnt that Duma was sealed, that'd probably be the first step in driving her to madness. The Mila faction would still remain loyal to her until she does something extremely drastic, however, I'm pretty sure. Wouldn't it just be the same story as the Duma Faithful?

The problem is that the game never shows us any real reason for Mila being sealed, as opposed to Duma. Of course she didn't want to get sealed away out of the blue, but if she was still sane, there might've been room to discuss this with her, as opposed going for the most drastic measure right off the bat. Even then, does Rudolf just attack her because she's a ticking time bomb or because he wants mankind to stand on its own two feet? 

They also never really address how they're going to deal with the droughts and stuff, but I guess that might be a topic for another time.

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16 minutes ago, Thane said:

The problem is that the game never shows us any real reason for Mila being sealed, as opposed to Duma. Of course she didn't want to get sealed away out of the blue, but if she was still sane, there might've been room to discuss this with her, as opposed going for the most drastic measure right off the bat. Even then, does Rudolf just attack her because she's a ticking time bomb or because he wants mankind to stand on its own two feet? 

They also never really address how they're going to deal with the droughts and stuff, but I guess that might be a topic for another time.

I mean, discussing with someone about how to murder them is usually counter-productive. Mila may still be rational, but she is unlikely to be willing to discuss this sort of matter with someone who just killed her brother. Mila herself acknowledged that she was acting purely on emotion when she sealed the Falchion after Rudolf did the thing (unrelated, but I wonder if Rudolf threw his shield too). It's quite possible that those emotions can get the better of her when confronting Rudolf after Duma's death, and I somewhat doubt that the cutscene we were shown was the full extent of Mila's wrath.

At best, Mila could do something like giving humanity a way of stopping her as she goes insane, like how in Fates (yes), Anankos teaches humans the Song of Prophecy for use when his time comes. But really, that didn't do the Vallites much good when Anankos went berserk. Different setting and different dragon, but I think it's something worth considering.

The Zofians didn't really need to do any real farming when Mila's blessing was still active. I think the land is still usable for farming, it just needs actual work. Valm was doing okay in Awakening.

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Just now, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I mean, discussing with someone about how to murder them is usually counter-productive.

I didn't mean that Rudolf would walk up to her and say "so, can I kill you, by the way?", merely that they'd search for some kind of alternative and listen to Mila's side of the story, if she were still sane enough, that is. If she does love mankind as much as she claims, wouldn't she end herself anyway before her madness claimed her? That's what Anankos should've done in Fates, rather than hatching a convoluted and very easily thwarted plan.

Of course, I've never liked the dragon madness thing, so I don't know if I'm simplifying things here, but it seems to be Rudolf really jumped the gun.

2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

The Zofians didn't really need to do any real farming when Mila's blessing was still active. I think the land is still usable for farming, it just needs actual work. Valm was doing okay in Awakening.

They explicitly say that crops haven't grown in about three years at the start of Echoes, that the land is barren and that there are droughts, which are all attributed to Mila's disappearance. They don't actually figure out how to solve this, but merely hope things will work out. Motivation doesn't produce rain.

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42 minutes ago, Thane said:

While all good points, I can't help but feel this applies to Alm as well. He's not immune to a dagger to the kidneys from a teleporting lunatic any more than Rudolf is. As for the sword, how did Rudolf even know Alm would be able to use it after Mila sealed it away inside of herself? 

True, but there was three years between Rudolf sealing Mila and Alm rising as a member of the Deliverance, which is three years' worth of more opportunities to assassinate Rudolf. Alm's objective doesn't change to sealing Duma until he meets Rudolf at the very end of the war, and thus he wouldn't have been targeted specifically by the Duma Faithful as Rudolf would have been. By that time, the Duma Faithful had been weakened by a lot of losses and Jedah was more focused on Celica, confidant that the sealed Falchion would be unusable.

As for the sword, that part definitely was a gamble, but then again the whole plan was to an extent.

42 minutes ago, Thane said:

They also never really address how they're going to deal with the droughts and stuff, but I guess that might be a topic for another time.

I'd imagine it's the same principle that Naga operated under in Awakening; Mila and Duma's "remains" after they went to sleep kept their power flowing through the land (since they willingly went to sleep instead of being sealed away), much like Naga's remains kept Mount Prism sacred so long as her "remains" weren't disturbed. Given that Mila's sleeping body was enough to create a massive tree that lived for two millennia, I can't imagine Valentia would be in any danger of drought or famine as long as they remained intact.

Plus, was it ever mentioned that Mila was strictly needed to grow crops or make the land fertile? Given that Mila spoiled the Zofians to the point where the whole reason Celica set out in the first place was to get Mila to fix all their problems for them and it's never mentioned that Duma was similarly responsible for the land being arable in Rigel, I wouldn't be surprised if they were so dependent on her growing all their crops for them that they didn't even bother trying to grow anything on their own.

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2 minutes ago, Thane said:

I didn't mean that Rudolf would walk up to her and say "so, can I kill you, by the way?", merely that they'd search for some kind of alternative and listen to Mila's side of the story, if she were still sane enough, that is. If she does love mankind as much as she claims, wouldn't she end herself anyway before her madness claimed her? That's what Anankos should've done in Fates, rather than hatching a convoluted and very easily thwarted plan.

Of course, I've never liked the dragon madness thing, so I don't know if I'm simplifying things here, but it seems to be Rudolf really jumped the gun.

They explicitly say that crops haven't grown in about three years at the start of Echoes, that the land is barren and that there are droughts, which are all attributed to Mila's disappearance. They don't actually figure out how to solve this, but merely hope things will work out. Motivation doesn't produce rain.

Maybe? We're heading into unknown territory with nothing to base our assumptions on at this point, so I'm not sure what to say. I guess one thing to consider was that any talk with Mila about this would basically be done at gunpoint, since humanity still possessed the Falchion.

Now that you mention rain, maybe it just doesn't rain often in Valentia? Mila's blessing is said to be on the earth of Zofia, and that shouldn't make rain either; it just carries hard so the crops can grow or something. Not much they can do about that, if that's the case, but the land can be worked on at least.

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23 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

True, but there was three years between Rudolf sealing Mila and Alm rising as a member of the Deliverance, which is three years' worth of more opportunities to assassinate Rudolf. Alm's objective doesn't change to sealing Duma until he meets Rudolf at the very end of the war, and thus he wouldn't have been targeted specifically by the Duma Faithful as Rudolf would have been. By that time, the Duma Faithful had been weakened by a lot of losses and Jedah was more focused on Celica, confidant that the sealed Falchion would be unusable.

But Alm has a much smaller army, is much less experienced than Rudolf and before the very end has a lot less personal power and influence than Rudolf. I really get what you're saying, and I'm not trying to be stubborn here, but I still feel like the assassination plot could just as easily have been applied to Alm - even then, it strikes me as odd that Rudolf would go for the far lesser threat first, risking the implosion of the nation he hopes will eventually save Rigel just because he was afraid of being assassinated.

25 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

As for the sword, that part definitely was a gamble, but then again the whole plan was to an extent.

I think that's what it comes down to at the end of the day. It feels like a very shaky plot that needed everything to play out exactly as Rudolf anticipated, and it's not like he takes a very active role in ensuring it all plays out accordingly.

26 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

I'd imagine it's the same principle that Naga operated under in Awakening; Mila and Duma's "remains" after they went to sleep kept their power flowing through the land (since they willingly went to sleep instead of being sealed away), much like Naga's remains kept Mount Prism sacred so long as her "remains" weren't disturbed. Given that Mila's sleeping body was enough to create a massive tree that lived for two millennia, I can't imagine Valentia would be in any danger of drought or famine as long as they remained intact.

That's all well and good, but they don't actually mention that while making their decision - it seems like something the game tells us about afterwards. If they had known that, Celica wouldn't have gone with Jedah in the end once she knew Alm was, at least under the circumstances, safe. They just say they'll work the barren earth and that they'll make it work, and that freedom is preferable to hunger. In other words, they fully expect famine after they win.

27 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

Plus, was it ever mentioned that Mila was strictly needed to grow crops or make the land fertile? Given that Mila spoiled the Zofians to the point where the whole reason Celica set out in the first place was to get Mila to fix all their problems for them and it's never mentioned that Duma was similarly responsible for the land being arable in Rigel, I wouldn't be surprised if they were so dependent on her growing all their crops for them that they didn't even bother trying to grow anything on their own.

I'm fairly sure it's directly tied to her, since they call the land barren, and they've had severe problems with droughts, which is one of the reasons why Celica sets out for Mila's temple. While the Zofians are meant to be lazy and spoiled, the ones we come across, both in our party and the NPC's, rarely strike me as the kind of people who'd wait in hunger for three years rather than try to work the land - I mean we even run into people who explicitly work a lot, like Atlas being a woodcutter and all the fishermen in Zofia Harbor; I find it odd to think there'd be no farmers. I mean, instead people take up arms and raid other villages for food, according to Alm. 

23 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Now that you mention rain, maybe it just doesn't rain often in Valentia?

If so, they wouldn't have specifically mentioned the droughts and considered the state of Zofia to be that dire. There are droughts and the lands are barren, which are, again, one of the reasons why Celica seeks out Mila in the first place. 

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1 minute ago, Thane said:

If so, they wouldn't have specifically mentioned the droughts and considered the state of Zofia to be that dire. There are droughts and the lands are barren, which are, again, one of the reasons why Celica seeks out Mila in the first place. 

If Mila's blessing could make crops grow, surely it has something to do with water as well. If her blessing also supplies ground water and such, there wouldn't be much danger of drought.

Also, iirc they still had enough water for moats and stuff in some places. Makes you really wonder if there was a drought.

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Honestly, the one sticking point is him still not doing anything about the Duma Cult and going on with fighting the Deliverance. Sending Alm away, yeah that makes sense. But that's still a massive unexplained/dumb moment.

I also think it's worth noting that despite everyone and their brother telling us there's a drought in Zofia, we don't see it at all. Everything's green, orange trees are still bearing fruit, and so on. I can understand not wanting a drab color pallet, but how it is in-game is contradictory and a major violation of "show, don't tell".

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I think the issue of droughts and famines is being overstated - Mila's blessing presumably prevents them (and makes farming easier in general) but it isn't the only way to get food. Her power does not extend to Rigel and yet the Rigellians have managed to survive, they just have to work harder at it. Mila's departure would be a rude awakening for the Zofians in terms of the extra workload they'd need to survive, but it wouldn't be an existential crisis I don't think.

As far as Rudolph going for Mila first, I think it probably just boils down to the fact that his plan works a lot better if Zofia's side is handled first. If he seals Duma, he creates a ton of opposition to himself at home, but the resolution of that conflict, whether it's with him in command or not, doesn't leave a lot of room for the unification he wants. The Rigellian civil war would presumably give rise to a ruler that wouldn't be easily overthrown, leaving a violent conquest of Zofia as the only real way to unite the two, and Rudolph explicitly doesn't want that. He hopes that the era of war is a bloody but short one that ends when the continent is united in their opposition to the man responsible, Rudolph himself. Setting the stage for a Zofian rebellion seems a lot more likely to create a "hero" (like Alm) that will play his part; it also leaves Rudolph himself in a much better position to come up with a new plan if he needs to. If the Deliverance fails, Emperor Rudolph is in a much better position to pursue his goals than Exiled Rudolph or Dead Rudolph.

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On 5/26/2017 at 5:29 AM, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

If Mila's blessing could make crops grow, surely it has something to do with water as well. If her blessing also supplies ground water and such, there wouldn't be much danger of drought.

Also, iirc they still had enough water for moats and stuff in some places. Makes you really wonder if there was a drought.

Some of the dialog you get for examining wells mentions that the water is a bit off in addition to hard to get. I can't remember the exact wording but Alm basically goes "Was it always like this?" 

Also just because there is a drought and the land is rotting doesn't mean the crops instantly wither to nothing so everyone starves and the waters dry up. Trees still growing and bearing fruit, for instance, just means that hardier (& established) stuff is around and that some crops still grow. But the harvest are lesser but not so limited that no one can eat yet, the rains aren't coming as much but they probably still have enough water to maintain some crops and such, But it's getting worse year over year until Celica finally sets out on her pilgrimage to see what's up. They probably could have had some more "barren" places though, yeah; i guess the graveyards and swamps were supposed to be that but eh.

 

Alternatively, unlike the rigeleans the zofians haven't learned how to be self-sufficient in times of drought/famine so it probably seems much worse than it actually is. There's even a NPC farmer in Zeke's village who is extremely mad at Zofians for not knowing the hardships they have to go through for rigel to prosper and I have to imagine that's not an uncommon sentiment.

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Hm, how to say it... I'm not saying this is necessarily bad plan, but things that could've gone wrong.
I mean, the 'shit shit shit' factor of gods becoming crazy and stuff must have played, but still.

Well, I guess he could do the gamble, since Alm had the mark of whatever... but at this point, he could have just done so himself. Or at least, done things better.

On 26/05/2017 at 10:17 AM, Thane said:

The problem is that the game never shows us any real reason for Mila being sealed, as opposed to Duma. Of course she didn't want to get sealed away out of the blue, but if she was still sane, there might've been room to discuss this with her, as opposed going for the most drastic measure right off the bat. Even then, does Rudolf just attack her because she's a ticking time bomb or because he wants mankind to stand on its own two feet? 

They also never really address how they're going to deal with the droughts and stuff, but I guess that might be a topic for another time.

You could say it might be a topic... for another topic. Sorry not sorry. :p

The original game seems to say that Rudolf wanted humankind to be on their own. Taking the remake into account... well, dunno. :p

By the by, someone will have to explain to me how the heck can someone survive having a godslaying sword in his forehead. And enchant it further with Master Sword bs.
... Don't say 'Divine Dragon' or 'God'. Please. :p

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8 hours ago, B.Leu said:

By the by, someone will have to explain to me how the heck can someone survive having a godslaying sword in his forehead. And enchant it further with Master Sword bs.

... Don't say 'Divine Dragon' or 'God'. Please. :p

If we presume that Mila has a similar eye on her forehead as Duma does, since her stoned (heh) dragon form looks similar to his (which is freakin' creepy btw), we can also presume said eyeball is gigantic, i.e. much larger in diameter than the Falchion is long, so the sword wouldn't have hit any vital organs, so the dragon could theoretically still be alive.

Even if Mila didn't have a creepy eye on her forehead, she still could be alive as only the tip of Falchion was stuck in her forehead and if we assume that dragons have similarly thick skulls as dinousaurs or other reptiles or just very thick skin like whales or polar bears, her surviving that isn't too far-fetched, I don't think.

Note: I did say 'dragon' a few times in this post, but since Mila and Duma are dragons and dragons are widely assumed to be similar to reptiles, well... sorry.

Edited by DragonFlames
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4 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

If we presume that Mila has a similar eye on her forehead as Duma does, since her stoned (heh) dragon form looks similar to his (which is freakin' creepy btw), we can also presume said eyeball is gigantic, i.e. much larger in diameter than the Falchion is long, so the sword wouldn't have hit any vital organs, so the dragon could theoretically still be alive.

Even if Mila didn't have a creepy eye on her forehead, she still could be alive as only the tip of Falchion was stuck in her forehead and if we assume that dragons have similarly thick skulls as dinousaurs or other reptiles or just very thick skin like whales or polar bears, her surviving that isn't too far-fetched, I don't think.

Note: I did say 'dragon' a few times in this post, but since Mila and Duma are dragons and dragons are widely assumed to be similar to reptiles, well... sorry.

It doesn't seem like she had an eyeball while I look at it, so I put my bet into theinto a thick skull. I don't know why would Duma have an eyeball and not Mila. All of this seems really way too convenient to me, though it does make sense.
... How awkward it would be, I imagine Rudolf being all 'Shit ! The sword is stuck ! Shiiiiiiiit !' xD

You said 'dragon' and talked about dinonaurs and reptiles, not 'divine dragons', so my salt meter did not go through unhealty levels, so don't worry. :p

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I have only played through the game once I'll probably spot more regarding the story on my 2nd run but that aside here is what I noticed. It is to my understanding that Emperor Rudolph WANTED to die by Alm's hand as opposed to by the Duma Faithful for example. Also in regards to your question about Mila Rudolph wanted to rid the land of BOTH Duma AND Mila. As he believed man should live in a world free of gods, both Zophia and Riegel had been corrupted by their corresponding god. A good example of this is what we DO know about king Lima IV. Anyway I hope you find satisfactory Thane.

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Everything makes a lot more sense if you consider that Alm was likely never part of the plan. Rudolf was against the gods even before Alm was born, that's why he immediately sent Alm away. So with Alm out of the loop the plan becomes a lot more simple.

     A. Convince Duma to give him Falchion to seal Mila.

     B. Wage a war, reach Mila's Temple and seal Duma.

     C.After sealing Mila, go home and seal Duma right away under the pretense of returning the sword. He'd likely be killed by the faithful in retaliation but feck it,      he's done his job by that point.

At every stage that is a perfectly sound plan. The only wrench in the work is that Mila did a pretty unpredictable thing and sealed Falchion's powers away making it impossible for him to seal Duma himself. After that happens he just has to hope the prophecies and destiny of his magic son will be enough to make everything alright.

Edited by Jotari
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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Everything makes a lot more sense if you consider that Alm was likely never part of the plan. Rudolf was against the gods even before Alm was born, that's why he immediately sent Alm away. So with Alm out of the loop the plan becomes a lot more simple.

     A. Convince Duma to give him Falchion to seal Mila.

     B. Wage a war, reach Mila's Temple and seal Duma.

     C.After sealing Mila, go home and seal Duma right away under the pretense of returning the sword. He'd likely be killed by the faithful in retaliation but feck it,      he's done his job by that point.

At every stage that is a perfectly sound plan. The only wrench in the work is that Mila did a pretty unpredictable thing and sealed Falchion's powers away making it impossible for him to seal Duma himself. After that happens he just has to hope the prophecies and destiny of his magic son will be enough to make everything alright.

That's what I thought, as well.

Isn't it kind of funny how Rudolf has the same idea Walmart Walhart had in Awakening, not to mention that they have similar armor? And that Alm is called an 'Exalt' (or at least 'Erhabener', which is what Ylisses rulers were called in the German version of Awakening) in his ending? And that Milas and Dumas corpses will eventually become trees (as in, the Mila tree in Awakening)? Methinks they tried to make a connection there.

23 hours ago, B.Leu said:

It doesn't seem like she had an eyeball while I look at it, so I put my bet into theinto a thick skull. I don't know why would Duma have an eyeball and not Mila. All of this seems really way too convenient to me, though it does make sense.
... How awkward it would be, I imagine Rudolf being all 'Shit ! The sword is stuck ! Shiiiiiiiit !' xD

You said 'dragon' and talked about dinonaurs and reptiles, not 'divine dragons', so my salt meter did not go through unhealty levels, so don't worry. :p

Good. I'm glad you found my explanation useful / valid.

Bolded: Thank you! I needed a good laugh! XD

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13 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

I have only played through the game once I'll probably spot more regarding the story on my 2nd run but that aside here is what I noticed. It is to my understanding that Emperor Rudolph WANTED to die by Alm's hand as opposed to by the Duma Faithful for example. Also in regards to your question about Mila Rudolph wanted to rid the land of BOTH Duma AND Mila. As he believed man should live in a world free of gods, both Zophia and Riegel had been corrupted by their corresponding god. A good example of this is what we DO know about king Lima IV. Anyway I hope you find satisfactory Thane.

I'm afraid this is not a satisfactory answer because you simply repeat what the game tells us. Rudolf's plan is still shaky as hell and borders on him being capable of foreseeing the future for him to pull it off.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Everything makes a lot more sense if you consider that Alm was likely never part of the plan. Rudolf was against the gods even before Alm was born, that's why he immediately sent Alm away. So with Alm out of the loop the plan becomes a lot more simple.

     A. Convince Duma to give him Falchion to seal Mila.

     B. Wage a war, reach Mila's Temple and seal Duma.

     C.After sealing Mila, go home and seal Duma right away under the pretense of returning the sword. He'd likely be killed by the faithful in retaliation but feck it,      he's done his job by that point.

At every stage that is a perfectly sound plan. The only wrench in the work is that Mila did a pretty unpredictable thing and sealed Falchion's powers away making it impossible for him to seal Duma himself. After that happens he just has to hope the prophecies and destiny of his magic son will be enough to make everything alright.

That still doesn't explain why he didn't go for Duma first, why he'd need to start a war and risk pretty much every life on the continent, and trusting prophecies to make it all right is not only immensely cheap writing, but also seems to go against Rudolf's personality of believing in mankind's strength rather than something supernatural. Hell, the guy came super close to breaking Zofia and turn it into a complete and utter hellhole, yet he expected them to kill Duma for him? How does that work?

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