SoV Unit Evaluation Day 24-25: ATLAS and Jesse

[Raguna]

Again apologies for the delay and here we have yet another pair ready for action. Across the sea we've journeyed not really that far and on land we see The gallant Valbar and the sellsword Kamui. (Plus Leon, but he isn't important for these two days)

The sturdy Valbar out to get revenge for the death of his entire family from Barth and Grieth's pirates as a whole. I have a particular soft spot for this guy so it pains me to get to his evaluation from solely a gameplay perspective. Valbar's bases are good for when you get him since his primary occupation is to tank the physical blows coming your way and give Saber some support. The bad news is, most if not all his contributions are solely in the early game as he falls off harder than any of the other units in Celica's army. His strength and HP stats are below the knight base of 16 and 34 respectively, his other stats are super low and his growths while decent enough will not be able to carry them up consistently and out of all the units in SoV, this man was the unluckiest to join with 0 res in an army that will be predominantly fighting the magic wielding Duma faithful.

For comparison despite them being on opposite armies, Lukas joins with better overall base stats than Valbar from the minute he joins, only losing out by 2 points in strength and 1 in skill. The biggest lead Valbar has being in the ones in HP and Defense and since Lukas is likely to promote by the time you reach the Deliverance shrine, he will have outshined him completely. Taking into consideration his low movement of 4 coupled by the incredibly unforgiving terrain that Celica's maps often foster it hurts not having a Warp user to get him going places. The last piece in this is that after a while Saber and the Dread Fighters can easily do the tanking necessary.

On the final word, Valbar is a crutch character. His early game contributions can help you out in the boat maps and while fighting your first Necrodragons in the Sea Shrine. He falls off by the point you reach the desert where Grieth lives and will only contribute inside Shrines if you like him enough to keep around.

Bryce Papenbrook as an squinty eyed mercenary, you end up hearing his voice almost everywhere these days. Enough about that though, Kamui is your second mercenary pal to join your crew and probably also the second best Dread Fighter on your team. Kamui enter with some pretty nice base stats despite his spd being lower than his class base but 8 spd for the time he joins isn't an issue and one that gets swiftly corrected during normal gameplay. He is however decently tanky for the first few maps and his growth spread is generally good with balanced growths all around with no specific specialization outside a higher chance to increase strength and speed. 

As a rule, anyone who can get to Dread Fighter is a good unit, only Jesse struggles due to how difficult it is for him to get there relative to the other three/four options. The one main drawback that Kamui has comparative to his DF buddies is his low res of 2 being  the lowest among them. Villagers and anyone who starts within the mercenary line do not have a res growth and even then it's so low activating one shouldn't be counted on or relied on in any playtrhough. You could give the early res shrine to him if you feel it necessary but that just means he'll be equal to Deen's. I'm relatively unsure on who's better between Deen and Kamui when both are in the army as I'd rank them in about the same place but since again Deen is a choice between another character Kamui does edge out in that regard and early conrtibution.

Great unit, great class. Use him and see where he takes you, you won't find many issues and he'll service your army until the end with great achievements.

Up to you now guys. What's your take?

[MrSmokestack]

Valbar sports some great bulk for an earlygame swarmed with terrors, so he does pretty well for choking the point if nothing else. By Act 3, he starts to fall off because he can't catch up, figuratively and literally speaking. Low Mov as a Baron combined with poor Spd and Res leave him separated from Celica's group too easily to contribute much of anything, and he becomes easy prey for Witch AI as well as Mire. Overall, he has some earlygame utility but he finishes weaker than when he started.

Kamui is your second choice for a Mercenary after Saber, and is pretty great if only by virtue of his class. Dread Fighters have high Mov and all-around high bases, especially in Spd. Though his Res is worse than Saber's, Apotrope from Dread Fighter patches this up pretty well. By Endgame, he tends to edge out Saber with his Spd and Atk leads. One of my personal favorites even if he doesn't stand out quite as much when you take the rest of the group contributions into consideration.

I've probably heard Bryce Papenbrook's voice before, but I wouldn't know from where. I do like how he did Kamui's though.

[joshcja]

Valbar is a thwomp on Celica's route. 1/10 can fork?

Kamui eats early exp is strictly worse than Saber at join and is basically Deen at Deen's recruitment, still he's early merc #2 and has his uses 6.5/10.

Edited June 21, 2017 by joshcja

[L9999]

Valbar

Low movement and the worst resistance in the game in a route with magic spam relegate Valbar to a joke charater status. I guess you could use him for chipping zombies in the first Cantor map and tank dracozombies but that's all he is good for. "Couldn't I use the Villager Pitchfork to make him better?" You might, but there are way better characters to use it on like The Ginger Spoiler or Nomah. Valbar gets a 2/10.

Kamui

He is a mercenary, so he is automatically good. He will have the worst res of the mercs as Dread Fighter but he gets the job done. 9/10.

[L9999]

6 hours ago, joshcja said:

Valbar is a thwomp on Celica's route. 1/10 can fork?

Kamui eats early exp is strictly worse than Saber at join and is basically Deen at Deen's recruitment, still he's early merc #2 and has his uses 5/10.

From whom Kamui is stealing exp? Can't be Boey, Mae or Valbar because those 3 are irrelevant. Saber has the lead although not by much because Genny and Celica ate all the early exp. Leon can get exp easily. 

EDIT: I thought someone else commented, excuse me.

Edited June 22, 2017 by L9999

[Baldrick]

Valbar is the best candidate for a Villager's Fork. A reclassed Merc is only as good as the unit's base strength and defence, and joining in act 2 means he can reasonably reach DF in a no-grind run. Nomah and Lucina are good fork candidates in the same way that Donnel is a good unit.

Kamui doesn't do anything special. In the main game, he's overshadowed by Saber, and postgame only nine non-lord units are relevant, so just being a merc isn't enough.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Valbar didn't drop off completely for me until the Grieth diversion was done. He tanks Wolff's arrow hell and Deen's Brave Sword of doom quite well, and can still possibly help out in Grieth's battle and the Dragon Shrine. Once you're done with Act 3 though, all of his usefulness vaporizes pretty much.

Kamui indeed finds himself being fairly mediocre. He's your backup swordie to Saber, and Deen is optional, while Jesse comes underleveled. He's lucky Celica's team gets a Holy Sword and a Shadow Sword- which can be cheaply turned into a second Brave Sword- as it means even as a backup unit he won't be lacking for a good offense. Dreads have it decently on Celica's route, but let's not kid ourselves, they're still playing second fiddle to the Whitewings.

[property of nuvelle]

Valbar

Becomes useless after reaching the desert maps. Saber can tank almost as well as him at that point.

Kamui

Mine ended up better than Saber, which I'm happy about because I like him more. Every level up he had always resulted in 2 or more for me. IIRC, he's my fastest unit.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Valbar is bad. I was pleased I got some use out of him walling Grieth, but that's about it; most of the time his poor move+range and offence hold him back.

Kamui is decent. Not as good as Saber because his bad luck means he can be crit-blicked, and I'm not quite as fond of mercernaries as some people here, but the atk/speed are solid and Dread Fighter is quite a good class when he gets there.

[Raguna]

Now over I have to do a slight adjustment. The next guy on the list is Leon but in order to keep with the ruling of reviewing two units at a time, I'll be adding in Luthier next. These dudes with outrageously stylish or just striking hairstyles

Here's Leon, Valbar's closest buddy and longtime admirer. Leon is your first archer in your group and a unit while not completely outstanding, will be seeing some great use in your army. When he joins Leon has decent base stats but due to his average growth rates, they won't be increasing too much  outside his emphasis on Skill. That said he also has one of the lowest res bases at 1 making him susceptible to magic damage. This gets remedied the more you play the game and he promotes gaining more range in order to destroy them without incurring damage himself. 

Not to fret however, what you really need to make to get this guy going is the Killer Bow. His high skill coupled with the Killer Bow's innate ability makes Leon into a potent and deadly force. Although hampered by Celica's terrain issues, he gains both movement with a horse and range in order to make up for any obstacle along the way. For some you could see him as a character that'd rely on crits more than anything if his spd doesn't come up to par which will be something of a theme for these two units in particular.

He has his flaws but he's pretty useful. You only get one archer in this route unless you promote Atlas into one and considering Leon can contribute nicely or decently in all maps, he's someone you could consider to keep around for the long haul.

The dude who befriended a cat, it's amazing he's the only guy who left the continent unless Kliff ending is any other indication.  Luthier joins as your first mage if you were crazy or just felt like you didn't need any mage prior to chapter 3. He joins right before you fight Desaix and probably with good reason as he seemed hard geared to help you out in that chapter in particular. His base stats are high for the growths that he lacks in and he has an impressive 75% skill growth which is perhaps the highest unbuffed growth in the game. 

Let's not mince words, Luthier's whole job is to crit. Crit like there is no tomorrow until the enemy has turned to dust... but unfortunately he's probably the weakest overall mage unless you did mage Gray. Kliff and Tobin have earlier join times and abilities while Delthea just has comically outrageous base stats with an overkill in her magic and res base. Most of Luthier contributions are primarily just in the chapter he joins in and while he can keep helping out, he isn't as effective as everyone else would be in the long term.  

He's good for when you get him, but outside of critting, he serves no role he performs absolutely better than anyone else in his group. He is a magic user however and a nice one at that. Think of him as the most unimpressive one overall but still an able combatant.

What do you guys believe?

[Interdimensional Observer]

Leon does his job- the defensive stats generally don't matter thanks to Archer/Sniper range. Skill and Strength matter the most, with Speed being remedied via the Killer Bow or Longbow (Encloser looks great- why doesn't anyone talk about it?). You get an Iron and Steel Bow on Celica's route pretty early (plus a Silver later). So even if you make Atlas an Archer, Leon and him still don't have to fight over weapons (unless you want to put your forging funds elsewhere).

 

Luthier is plain sad. On Hard he couldn't double the Knights with Excalibur during Berkut 2 with his base Speed- Knights! That Skill growth, though incredible, is for all intents and purposes worthless- it's a mere 1 point of critical every 3 levelups on average. His Speed base is really bad despite a usable growth, and he doesn't have mega Atk to compensate. His durability isn't amazing either. And the only useful spells he gets are Sagittae and Excalibur- no Aura, nor Seraphim, Ragnarok, or any useful White Magic either. Even if you didn't make any of the Villagers a Mage, Luthier is pretty useless, particularly since his little sister Delthea outdoes him pretty quickly save for her lack of 1-3 spells. I guess he can be salvaged with the Speed Ring though- yet that alone is his saving grace- take it away and he's nearly useless.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[joshcja]

Leon is an early archer in bad terrain land 7.99/10 would forge killer bow again. 

Luthier is a drugged up version of the boy-villager mages who comes free with decent growths, very solid bases, and an above average spellset. He's a pretty useful dude with a shield, sadly he share's a route with UberEst McJeiganbases so his usage is rock bottom low. 6.5/10 underated bro.

Edited June 26, 2017 by joshcja

[L9999]

Leon

Breaking tradition of awful archers, Leon is a good unit to have around. Celica's route has a lot of annoying enemies with range and the only one who can kill them safely is Leon. Killer Bow thankfully doesn't require gold marks to get, even then Leon can do just fine with a Blessed Bow. As he arrives early and conveniently before a cantor map Leon will likely promote to Sniper before ending Act 2, and less time being unpromoted is always nice. That being said, Leon has bottom tier resistance with can be problematic on enemy phase. His speed isn't that impressive and he might get screwed from time to time. He gets an 8/10.

Luthier

This guy is a scrub. His stats don't cut it and all that babying done for him could be better invested on someone else, like Mathilda, who conveniently and literally arrives 5 minutes later or the cleric duo. His spell list doesn't contain anything special and he can't be a staffbot like Tobin. If you like the guy I guess he can turn out good but that can be said about any unit in this game. 5/10. As a side note, Delthea is incredibly overrated, although that will be a topic for another day.

Edited June 28, 2017 by L9999

[Dark Holy Elf]

Leon died before I could recruit him so no comment.

Luthier is a mage and mages are good. He's not really the most exciting one but Excalibur can still do a decent job at taking out trouble enemies.

[N30]

Leon is Python if Python joined at the Southern Fort instead of after the Deliverance HQ. In other words, really good. No matter how screwed he is, Bow Knight bases are good enough to carry the guy to the end, him only really needing to use the Iron Bow to stay relevant until Act IV in which he can transition into the Killer Bow if you so wish. Also, I usually make him the Ward Arrow user in a non-draft run to take on Ganef in the last map. 
8/10 overall.

Luthier has taken a big hit from his Gaiden performance. This has to do with the overall buffs to enemy AS and HP (res to a small extent as well), the Speed Ring no longer giving an insane +5 mov (this basically nerfed every mage in Alm's Route and Lukas though so it doesn't just affect Lu), and overall growth buffs to the Ram boys. In Gaiden, at base Luthier doubles and has a chance to ORKO all the armors you face in Alm's Route. Here, he needs some speed procs to do it without the speedring. At a 40% speed growth and a speed base that Tobin has long surpassed by now. 
In Echoes, he's a Mage!Tobin who traded Physic for Thunder and Sagittae for all that's worth. Mage!Tobin already struggles to kill things by the beginning of Act IV and unlike Luthier, he can always just fall back to Physic botting and still get exp for it. However, Sagittae is his greatest asset as the only other Mage to get it in Alm's Side is Kliff, and he's better doing other things like being a Bow Knight in the lategame or a Gold Knight by the end of Act III, and with the Speedring, he can at least attempt to double with Sagittae and secure some kills like against any Baron in Act IV or V, or in Last Bastion against the Bow Knights.

6/10 overall. Mage!Tobin is the better mage here.

[DragonFlames]

Leon
As he is the first (and possibly only) bow user you get on Celica's route, he's pretty much a must use, especially if you want someone to pick off enemy archers on the counter pre Mage Ring or safely kill / weaken Cantors or Arcanists without taking too much damage in return.
Sadly, like all Archers in SoV, he suffers from a bit of a hit problem, although he's the second most accurate one after Tobin - which honestly isn't saying much. He also has trouble doubling stuff, especially the faster Gargoyles and Mogalls.
He's still a pretty okay unit overall and, as stated before, a must use on Celica's route.
A solid 3/6 for me.
+ Must use as he is the only starting Archer on Celica's route
+ Solid growth in Attack, so his attacks will deal decent to high damage to enemies.
+ Can pick off fliers, Arcanists, Cantors and other Archers from a safe distance
- Inaccurate if equipped with anything other than a forged bow.
- A bit on the slow side
- Low durability, although that shouldn't really come into play as he can attack from a high distance

Luthier
Luthier has Skill and starts with Excalibur. Big whoop. Honestly, Luthier - while severely entertaining as a character, one of my favourites for this reason - isn't good as a unit. He suffers from the same problems Boey has - low Speed, though his is a bit higher than Boey's, no Res to tank other mages - on top of a low Attack growth, so his magic won't do much later down the line.
He also suffers from the same troubles all the other male mages - with the exception of a reclassed Saber - face: He doesn't have access to Seraphim, possibly the most important spell in the game, as it is the only way to reliably kill Terrors without taking any damage in return later down the line. His semi-high crit chance with Excalibur doesn't really cut it here either, since crits don't always trigger, the bonus damage from Seraphim however, does.
His little lolinuke sister is superior to him in every way imaginable, from bases to growths, except Skill. But let's face it, since Magic hit rates are fixed and Luck appears to influence crit rates the most, what's a Mage supposed to do with a high Skill stat?
He does make for a solid backup healer once promoted, though.
He gets a 2/6 from me.
+ Starts with semi decent bases and gets two strong spells in Excalibur and Saggitae
+ Good backup healer once promoted
- Low damage output due to low Attack and Speed
- Durability of a wet tissue
- Relies on chance to dish out good damage
- No Seraphim

[L9999]

9 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

- Relies on chance to dish out good damage

Not defending Luthier, but you can rig critical hits in SoV by changing your spell a couple times before attacking.  

[Dark Holy Elf]

Slightly off-topic, but how do you rig crits? That's extremely weird. Bad programming or a deliberate easter egg?

On 2017-06-29 at 3:47 AM, DragonFlames said:

He's still a pretty okay unit overall and, as stated before, a must use on Celica's route.

I didn't use him and never remotely felt the lack of an archer on Celica's route. Archers' cantor-killing ability seems incredibly overrated to me; they often have trouble hitting (especially the ones who camp on supplies) and their ability to avoid a counter while doing so is offset by their mediocre durability elsewhere.

[joshcja]

34 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Slightly off-topic, but how do you rig crits? That's extremely weird. Bad programming or a deliberate easter egg?

I didn't use him and never remotely felt the lack of an archer on Celica's route. Archers' cantor-killing ability seems incredibly overrated to me; they often have trouble hitting (especially the ones who camp on supplies) and their ability to avoid a counter while doing so is offset by their mediocre durability elsewhere.

Swapping spells progresses the RNG slightly and turnwheel does not.

Edited June 30, 2017 by joshcja

[Asmont Osborne]

25 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

their ability to avoid a counter while doing so is offset by their mediocre durability elsewhere.

But why would they ever be in a situation where an enemy can attack them and they cannot counter? It's true, you'd have to put a unit to block the enemies from getting to your archer, but the incredible range bows have in Echoes is specifically made to shoot faraway enemies from safe locations where the archer cannot be reached by the enemies. Of course, Witches can warp in and hit your archer, but Witches are some of the most dangerous enemies in the game because of the fact that they can warp everywhere. I believe someone already said this, but the only thing stopping Witches from screwing any strategy over is the AI being dumb. You can't do much against witches, other than kill them ASAP. And by the way, only bow-wielding units and people who learn Silence (which has bad range and probably won't hit often due to Witches/Cantors/high-tier magical enemies' high Res; there is not many units who can learn Silence in the first place, either) can help against Witches than you cannot immediately kill. Archers, with their Ward Arrow art, learned from (IIRC) Silver Bows, make for the best, safest and most accurate way to Silence people in this game. It's true that the Silence spell is an option, but it is usually inaccurate against the people you want to Silence. Ward Arrow, instead, relies on Hit to connect, and Leon (since that's the archer we're talking about here) is the easiest way to get Ward Arrow and to get it working. Python and Atlas are fairly inaccurate and you may not want to use Tobin as an Archer (the most accurate one in the game due to high Skl/Lck) since he is arguably better as a Mage due to earliest Excalibur access (almost surely has it by the time Luthier joins). Leon, instead, is the most accurate Archer at base and can be an accurate Ward Arrower (that's not even a word, what am I saying).

So yeah, that was my totally unnecessary rant about Ward Arrow being best used by Leon, thus making him at least decent.

[Interdimensional Observer]

19 hours ago, L9999 said:

Not defending Luthier, but you can rig critical hits in SoV by changing your spell a couple times before attacking.

 

17 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Swapping spells progresses the RNG slightly and turnwheel does not.

Interesting information. But unless you can see the RNs somehow, this doesn't really help I think.

[hunty]

Leon is amazing and with how bad this game's map design is, especially on Celica's route, he's invaluable for the sheer fact that archers have crazy range. His growths are so average in all areas that he can end up anywhere from one of the best to one of the worst units on the roster stat-wise. My Leons always end up Atk-blessed but Spd-screwed so there's that. Overall, my personal bias for him aside since he is one of my favourites, he definitely deserves a 8/10.

Can't really add much to what has already been said about Luthier. He pales in comparison to Kliff and Delthea and his only niche as a unit focusing on crits is off-set by his shitty stats. 4/10.

[joshcja]

14 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 

Interesting information. But unless you can see the RNs somehow, this doesn't really help I think.

You can make a pretty good guess at the RN even if it's not clearly visable.

Attack, wheel, cycle, crit.

Edited July 1, 2017 by joshcja

[Raguna]

If anything needs more evaluation these days it's very likely my schedule. Apologies again for the wait and to continue we have yet another pair of units to give our cursory glance to Mathilda and Delthea. (Also excuse the image size difference here being pretty big)

Clive's one and only love, creator of the Deliverance and captured because of it. Mathilda is the second horse unit in the game and with a common theme with Delthea having some of the strongest bases in the entire game. Complemented by her decently high growth rates, she's far less likely to lag behind due to bad level ups. Being of the cavalier line also gives her the usual perks of mobility but the real catch is her whopping 10 res which is frankly ridiculously good considering even some mages can't reach to that resistance.  She's excellent against magic based enemies and her defense isn't too shabby so she can deal with physical units pretty well too.

Out of her competition excluding the villagers who went cavalier she is easily the best. Clive joins earlier but he's average at best compared to this lady who comes in with base stats that are all higher than his except in HP. Zeke joins a whole lot later not much better than her and Mycen is there more as a crutch character if you lost some units rather than to complement your existing party. They can all do their jobs except Mycen but by the end it's just the fact that Mathilda is more versatile that gives her the edge.

I can't say I like Mathilda due to how fortunate she is in all areas of gameplay, but thoughts like those don't matter in this evaluation. She's great, she comes in and helps from the get go with no investment and her one issue of HP gets remedied the minute she becomes a Gold Knight. 

 

Here's our little loon who think she's all cool, here's Delthea ready to help out. She is the exact definition of a glass cannon outside of her mad res. High attack, luck, spd and pretty decent skill, she's about to destroy anyone she engages in a round of combat. Her growth in magic is also at a ridiculous 70% so that will keep increasing alongside her spd. Compared to her brother at the very least, she's capable of outdoing his contributions but at the end of the day she doesn't out do any villager you turned into a mage by that point outside again for the possibility of mage Gray. However out of the two mages you get naturally in that route, she ends up on top.

That said she isn't as great as many would say. She's a pinnacle of offense yes, but she's one hit away from dying. Her frailty is her biggest weakness which gets added by her lack of a 3 range magic skill. She has no safe approach from afar and her low HP  will also be cause of worry even if you use her to soak up magic damage. Her promotion helps out those endurance flaws but at the cost of losing her 1-2 range counter during the enemy phase. You could give her the Mage Ring to correct it but I'd say her competition makes better use of it than she does to gain even more coverage.

She's an offensive powerhouse but she's slightly high risk especially whenever an enemy archer is around. Use her at your own risk and she will usually pay dividends as she's ready when you get her, just be careful for when it comes to healing her after she strikes.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Raguna

[TheGreatNothing]

Mathilda

8/10 Best cav in the game with high res and good enough stats across the board. Usable in the final dungeon but not much after.

Delthea

10/10 One of the best units in the game and easily the best mage, even beating out Celica. She is a little bit of a glass cannon but her offensive power alone will be enough to carry the endgame. 

I don't know how to add a quote while editing so I will just ask, why is Delthea worse than Mage!Kliff?

Edited July 4, 2017 by ThatOneWeakArcher