How would you compare Fernand and Berkut to the previous FE 3DS villains?

[Erureido]

Fernand and Berkut are two newly added and major antagonists to the Garden remake. I've noticed Fernand is generally looked down upon and not viewed very favorably by most fans, while the FE community seems split on Berkut: one half calls him an amazing antagonist, while the other half calls him a terrible villain.

So I'd figure I would put a twist on discussions regarding Fernand and Berkut. Let's compare them to the past FE villains in the 3DS. The FE 3DS villains were generally criticized and considered terrible antagonists by many, but with Echoes' improvement on its story-telling and characters, I was wondering how would you all compare Berkut and Fernand to the other FE 3DS villains from Awakening and Fates. Do you think Berkut and Fernand are better than them and are thus proof that Intelligent Systems can still write good villains, or about the same/worse to the point you'd say IS still hasn't learned their recent lessons on writing ideal antagonists.

For me, while I do not like Fernand at all and currently feel mostly indifferent to Berkut, I still think they are much better than most of the FE 3DS villains. They are not your Saturday morning cartoon villains like Garon, Iago, Hans, Validar, and Grima, that's for sure. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Erureido

[Nobody]

I think Fernand is a terrible person, but not a terrible character. What was annoying was the amount of second chances the playable characters were willing to give him, and his forced redemption during death. Other than that, he was written well enough, and was definitely better than the other 3ds villains.

I also think Berkut was better than the other 3ds villains, not that that is a huge feat or anything.

[Magical Glace]

They're no Lyon, but they are at least an improvement from the likes of Validar.  Or at least, Berkut is.  Fernand, not really sure what to think of him.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Glaceon Sage

[Res]

I think Berkut could've been read very differently if not for his voice acting at times. His VA did an amazing job of humanizing him. I kind of wish I had read his lines before hearing them voiced, to see what a difference it makes.

I also thought it was a solid decision to add Rinea alongside Berkut. 

 

 

[BrightBow]

They are one hell of an improvement. The actions of the previous 3DS villains can essentially only be explained by them seeing it as their life's goal to be hated by the main characters and the player as opposed to following any sort of bigger scheme. Which lead to such absurd situations like Iago and Garon constantly flipflopping between wanting to see Corrin suffer and wanting to see him death, to the point where Iago goes behind Garon's back to assassinate Corrin or Garon attacks his own freaking army. Their attempts to earn the player's ire are so shallow and desperate that it's impossible to actually hate them.

Ferdinand and the others have a certain logic to their actions. Whether you consider them tragic villains or just entitled little shits, you can at least care about them since they don't seem to make their choices with the aim to get one specific emotional reaction from the player.

Edited May 30, 2017 by BrightBow

[DragonLord]

Berkut was interesting, being raised the way he was and seeking acceptance all his life. The final fight with him was pretty tragic considering what he gave up to attain that power. Fernand was okay, though I agree the way he "redeemed" himself near the end was a little too rushed and out of nowhere in my opinion. I think his character did a decent job at highlighting the disdain held by some nobility against the common folk in Zofia. I have to say definitely better villains than the previous 3DS FEs though.

Edited May 30, 2017 by DragonLord

[Emeraldfox]

Lame manbabies just like the others. At least Berkut had a great voice.

[Raguna]

I'll echo in around the same sentiments for Fernand and Berkut as everyone else has. While rather unlikeable, they do their job with a solid reasoning although one that goes to a silly extreme with Fernand. Berkut's fall was far more natural due to how he was brought up. They definitely top the previous 3DS villains that's for sure.

Although not mentioned, this feels countered somewhat by Jedah. His reasoning is good at first mixed with a bit of power hungry zeal but his motivations end up crumbling by the time we fight him in the end. He becomes generically evil for some reason, Berkut and Fernand at least keep their character consistency.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Raguna

[BakanGin]

They gave anger during game and regret for killing one when dead. Better scripted too.

[Thane]

So much missed potential. They become completely unsympathetic even though the game tries so damn hard to paint them in a more positive light. How does the game expect me to have a shred of sympathy for Fernand when he betrays his friends and even country just so he can continue being a classist jerk? Am I to believe a sad past gives him a free pass to try and fight for the aggressors in the conflict and try to murder Alm and his own best friend? Ridiculous.

Berkut just goes off the deep end. He whines and cries all game, shouts at Rinea with whom he's got negative chemistry with, then sacrifices her to get power, marking the second time he borrows a power he's got no control over, and that's something I can't stand in a story.

What's worse is how Alm tries to forgive both of these bottom scraps of humanity, showing that the writers wanted us to actually care for these people, but rather than giving us a reason for doing so, they thought some informed traits and events would be all that was needed. 

However, in comparison to other 3DS villains, I can at least say I appreciate Fernand and Berkut being more human. Even though Berkut and Rinea's relationship would make any sexual reproduction organ enter a defensive state and disable itself due to their utter lack of chemistry, Berkut actually has a credible goal before he completely throws away what would've made him interesting. In comparison, Validar and Garon have nothing, and no villain in the series will ever be worse than Anankos, whose mere presence renders Birthright and Conquest obsolete and superfluous. Had they just not made Berkut go completely bonkers, and given Fernand a more credible reason for leaving - previous connections in Rigel, more focus on Alm being made leader out of the blue rather than him being a commoner - and they would've been serviceable.

That being said, they all pale in comparison to Walhart, who is my favorite villain in the series alongside Lyon.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Thane

[maybe]

my knowledge of the 3ds games comes from playing awakening one time a few years back, playing through conquest up to around chapter 20, other bits of fates that I saw mostly prior to the english release (including a lot of the rest of conquest), and seeing the majority of echoes through videos, so I don't think i can really make a full judgment of this

but anyway, i don't think fernand and berkut are good but i'd still call them better than the other 3ds game villains that I know of 

they at least have defined motivations and backstories that explain why they act the way they do

gangrel, validar, and garon had none of those really

i think both of them were huge wastes of potential and berkut's VA did such a good job that I honestly don't think his character is nearly as bad as when I first read the translated japanese scripts

but ultimately neither of their motivations are fleshed out to the point that their actions seem reasonable, so they just come off as annoying pissbabies most of the time

i'd still say they're better than most if not all of the other 3ds villains (probably including rudolf, though i'm still not entirely sure how much the remake changed him), but that's really not saying much

Edited May 30, 2017 by unique

[Black_Knight]

In terms of Fernand, the reason he acts the way he does was based on his upbringing and past. He was raised a noble, and believed he was above peasants. But what really influenced his character, and is easily missed, is that due to the famine in Zofia, the peasants on Ferand's land blamed his family and it deteriorated to the point that they stormed his family's castle and killed everyone but him. So his resentment and biases towards peasants is quite understandable.

However if you don't catch that little piece of information and just base your judgement solely on your interactions with him in game, it's very easy to see him as just an arrogant man who beliefs of aristocracy trumps all.

 

Spoiler

The real question is if Alm weren't born of royalty, would Fernand still be at peace with Clive's decision to make Alm the leader of the Deliverance and with Alm himself while he was on his deathbed with the understanding that actions, and not birthright judge a person's character.

 

[L9999]

Two conflicted young men and the most pathetic bosses in the entire game, both get 1RKO'd by Clair with Ridersbane. Rinea was actually a harder boss.

I'll start with Fernand. Before playing this game I thought he leaved the Deliverance because Clive made Alm the leader out of the blue. In that case I would understand Fernand, as his friend and leader of a resistance movement flat out drops the leadership to some teenager who has never leaved his village and whose only accomplishment was saving Clair at the outpost. But no, it is because Alm is a farmboy, and he leaves too quickly. Since this is FE and betraying countries is done so casually I won't fault him in that aspect. Then he goes to Berkut and because they both share their opinions against filthy farmboys they team up. After Alm and company rescue Mathilda, Fernand proceeds to not appear in the game until he finally dies. As mentioned above, his backstory in detail is only explained in base conversations, and that sucks. What they need it was to flat out telll Alm. That way it is more believable for Alm to forgive him for being such an asshole.

Berkut Skywalker and Rinea Amidala. Yes, I named then like that because it plays out like that awful romance. Why does Rinea love Berkut so much when everytime they meet Berkut shouts creepy tantrums at her and doesn't seem to care about anything but himself? The memory sure as hell doesn't explain it. Act 4 was the worst point, when Alm turns out to be Prince Albein. Berkut goes on yet another creepy tantrum of "we could have ruled the entire galaxy together and do things the way we want!" and he sacrifices Rinea to Duma because the poor girl didn't want to be an empress and was very chill about Alm. I had zero sympathy for Berkut when he and Rinea go and die together, I didn't buy the relationship for a second nor Berkut as a character because he never stopped throwing tantrums about Alm.

So, do I think they are worse than the other 3DS villains? Nah. While they were questionable characters and pathetic bosses at least they have clear motivations and backstories.

42 minutes ago, Thane said:

What's worse is how Alm tries to forgive both of these bottom scraps of humanity, showing that the writers wanted us to actually care for these people, but rather than giving us a reason for doing so, they thought some informed traits and events would be all that was needed. 

Alm is too chill to be true.

[Tolvir]

Fernand had a bit of Karma happen there. He got what he deserved out of that situation, and I didnt exactly feel bad for him.

Berkut on the other hand I have a bit more sympathy for. Berkut was Rudolf's creation. He caused what happened to Berkut, and while it was ultimately up to Berkut to make the choices he did, Rudolf was the one responsible for raising him and teaching him the way he did. So Berkut's mindset that influenced his decision was a result of Rudolf's neglect. If Rudolf had raised him to be something other than Emperor since that was going to only lead Berkut towards a dream he could never acheive, and rather taught him to become General or something of the like things would of gone the same way. He could of at least told Berkut similar to what he told Zeke, follow the person with a mark on his left hand. Why he could tell Zeke, a complete stranger with Amnesia about the mark, and not Berkut, made no sense to me. So I feel a bit of sympathy for Berkut. Ultimately what he did was his fault, but Rudolf shares part of that fault.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Tolvir

[Captain Karnage]

30 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

Fernand had a bit of Karma happen there. He got what he deserved out of that situation, and I didnt exactly feel bad for him.

Berkut on the other hand I have a bit more sympathy for. Berkut was Rudolf's creation. He caused what happened to Berkut, and while it was ultimately up to Berkut to make the choices he did, Rudolf was the one responsible for raising him and teaching him the way he did. So Berkut's mindset that influenced his decision was a result of Rudolf's neglect. If Rudolf had raised him to be something other than Emperor since that was going to only lead Berkut towards a dream he could never acheive, and rather taught him to become General or something of the like things would of gone the same way. He could of at least told Berkut similar to what he told Zeke, follow the person with a mark on his left hand. Why he could tell Zeke, a complete stranger with Amnesia about the mark, and not Berkut, made no sense to me. So I feel a bit of sympathy for Berkut. Ultimately what he did was his fault, but Rudolf shares part of that fault.

somebody blood related had to be announced as the next person in line, if Berkut knew Ruldolph had a son the Duma Faithful would have found out and searched for Alm, there was no way arund this

I like that Burkut was destined to go through that trauma

______________________________________________

their better written than the villians of the past few games, I happen to really like them

and on another note

I think Garron was a better villain than Validar

[Bowbow]

People are way too hard on Fernand I think. His entire family just got fucking murdered. Mom, dad, sisters, brothers. Children were killed. All by ungrateful people living on their land who were actually being treated well. They have the blood of children on their hands. What's worse is that it didn't accomplish a damn thing or magically end the famine going on in Zofia. Fernand loved his family and held similar views as Clive did towards the common folk and they back stabbed him. You're lying through your teeth if you say you wouldn't feel mistrust, anger and grief if the same happened to you.

[Sentinel07]

In my opinion, Berkut is not only one of the better villains of the 3DS era, but one of the best antagonists in the series.

His motivations are fairly human and realistic, not to mention they make sense given the kind of environment Rigel has. His slow descent makes sense with how much it goes against everything he's been taught in life, including losing the throne that he had been lead by everyone to believe was his to lose.

I could go into much bigger explanation but I think that's enough.

[Slumber]

Berkut actually is a decent villain, and his development is clear and easy to follow. We know he was basically groomed to be the next ruler of Rigel, a country that rules with an iron fist. The current ruler is basically lying to him constantly to serve a greater purpose, and the interactions between Berkut and Rudolf that we see imply that Rudolf is always dangling the throne in front of Berkut on a stick that he can't reach, and is quick to make Berkut feel unworthy as a leader. And THEN Berkut, after a major meltdown, finds out that he was never ever even really a candidate for the throne, and that his entire life was a lie. We're given reasons as to why Berkut is initially a threat to the good guys, and we see him breakdown throughout the game as Alm takes everything he thinks he has little by little. He's not an amazing or deep villain, but he gets development, and the game makes it easy to understand why he is the way he is. 

Which is something you can't say about Garon or Validar, who were pretty much just evil for the sake of being evil(Garon was at least once a decent father apparently, but that's never explored or talked about in any detail).

Same kind of deal with Fernand, but his character is a bit harder to get behind. Yeah, his family was killed because his people overthrew them, but it's never explained if his parents were good rulers, or if there's anything they could have done to appease the villagers. His fervent anti-peasant stance leads me to believe that he was probably brought up hating them, and as such, his parents were probably greedy, shitty lords. I'm obviously inferring a lot from the little we're given, but Fernand is a pretty minor villain in the grand scheme of things. I could see an argument where Fernand is also a sympathetic, "screwed by fate" type of antagonist, but I think you'd need to make more assumptions than the arguments of Fernand always just kind of being a shitty dude. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Slumber

[Sentinel07]

37 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Berkut actually is a decent villain, and his development is clear and easy to follow. We know he was basically groomed to be the next ruler of Rigel, a country that rules with an iron fist. The current ruler is basically lying to him constantly to serve a greater purpose, and the interactions between Berkut and Rudolf that we see imply that Rudolf is always dangling the throne in front of Berkut on a stick that he can't reach, and is quick to make Berkut feel unworthy as a leader. And THEN Berkut, after a major meltdown, finds out that he was never ever even really a candidate for the throne, and that his entire life was a lie. We're given reasons as to why Berkut is initially a threat to the good guys, and we see him breakdown throughout the game as Alm takes everything he thinks he has little by little. He's not an amazing or deep villain, but he gets development, and the game makes it easy to understand why he is the way he is. 

Which is something you can't say about Garon or Validar, who were pretty much just evil for the sake of being evil(Garon was at least once a decent father apparently, but that's never explored or talked about in any detail).

Same kind of deal with Fernand, but his character is a bit harder to get behind. Yeah, his family was killed because his people overthrew them, but it's never explained if his parents were good rulers, or if there's anything they could have done to appease the villagers. His fervent anti-peasant stance leads me to believe that he was probably brought up hating them, and as such, his parents were probably greedy, shitty lords. I'm obviously inferring a lot from the little we're given, but Fernand is a pretty minor villain in the grand scheme of things. I could see an argument where Fernand is also a sympathetic, "screwed by fate" type of antagonist, but I think you'd need to make more assumptions than the arguments of Fernand always just kind of being a shitty dude. 

The Memory Prism between Clive and Fernand seems to imply that his family are good people that are trying to make things work but Desaix is putting pressure on them for some reason.

[pumpkinspice48]

I think they were good villains by fire emblem standards.  They weren't amazing, but served there roles well and had understandable motivations.  If I were going to change one thing I'd probably tone Fernand down a bit to make him a little more sympathetic.

[Stopwatch]

I think that Berkut is a fairly well-written narcissist who spends the entire story being shown that there's someone better than him in every way that he considers important. 

Berkut's writing is not bad;  but he dies before it has a chance to really resolve.

I'd like to refer to the five stages of grief in the context of Berkut: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

Before the climax of Berkut's character arc in Act 5, he lost to Alm twice in Acts 3 and 4. This showed him that Alm was a better fighter/general than him, something he thought he was best at. I posit that he could justify "Oh well, I'm still royalty and he's just a commoner- i'm still better than him." He denies. Even though he lost to a commoner, he's still royalty. But then - surprise! - Alm is the prince of Rigel. Now HE'S below him in both station and competence, his two most treasured attributes. He throws a complete tantrum, lashing out in anger towards Rinea. Finally, in act 5 he bargains with Duma for the power to destroy Alm (and possibly the country that scorned him for Alm). Then he dies upon defeat at Alm's hands, with a shoehorned acceptance as Rinea guides him to the afterlife. Even though i think that's pretty cute.

I think Berkut could have been resolved better by being playable, which I've heard was once a thing. Then he could made his bargain earlier, had a bout of depression afterwards (not about losing this time, but about sacrificing Rinea), and accepted his shortcomings later and joining the cause to avenge his lover. Plus, we may have seen Rudolf react to his demonic powers, which I think would have given his true motives some much needed foreshadowing (even if it's not so obvious as to give away the twist). 

 

Fernand isn't terrible, but he's still pretty lame. 

[Azure Sen]

Berkut and Fernand are leagues above Validar, Grima, Gooron and Anankos because they have actual motivations that make some sort of sense and act in a consistent manner, but that isn't saying much considering how badly written the latter four are. Otherwise, I find Berkut and Fernand to be generally pretty poorly written themselves, given that they were both obviously supposed to be sympathetic and yet they have no real traits to make them actually sympathetic. Berkut had maybe one redeeming trait in his love for Rinea (even though I don't think that the capacity to love automatically makes a character sympathetic, but I digress), and he just pisses that away late in the story by sacrificing her to Duma for power. Fernand doesn't even have that, and shows an alarming willingness to abandon his friends, the woman he maybe likes, and his country over what can be called an ideological difference if we're being nice and a huge tantrum if we're not.

[V-raptor]

As for Fernand, i have mixed opinions. While the backstory given makes his actions understandable, i think he goes a bit too far. I mean, he betrays his country, abandons his best friend, and just is a total jerk the entire game. And hating ALL commoners just because a small group of them attacked you is a bit over-kill tbh.

Berkut i really like. Yeah he can come off as a jerk sometimes, but not nearly as much as Fernand. His motivations are a lot more understandable, being raised as the next emperor and to be a strong fighter only for Alm to just completely trash on everything he held dear just... sucks. As for his final act, he was just so desperate to triumph over Alm that he sacrifices Rinea, which is somewhat understandable, but a bit overkill. Then again, he would never go to Duma Temple under any circumstances, so i like to think Duma just rigged that by himself. 

As for comparing to the other 3DS villains, both are miles ahead of Grima, Validar and the Fates villains. I find Walhart and Gangrel a bit better than Fernand and about equal to Berkut.

[Slumber]

4 hours ago, Sentinel07 said:

The Memory Prism between Clive and Fernand seems to imply that his family are good people that are trying to make things work but Desaix is putting pressure on them for some reason.

Oh, you're right. I forgot he got a memory prism. 

[FoxyGrandpa]

As villains, I think their inclusion strengthens the story of Gaiden by a fair bit. I like how the devs worked them into the game to make the few maps maps they were in a lot more interesting for story related purposes like that one map with the 3 paladins. 

I see alot of people complaining about Berkut and Rinea's relationship, but I feel the issue was that the development of the relationship wasn't fully portrayed rather than the actual relationship between the two characters being bad. The memory prism does show how the two initially met, but it doesn't show enough, like how or why Berkut proposed to her despite her lower social status. His actions during the story only shows his romantic feelings towards her during your first encounter and last encounter with him. At the very least, this is understandable since he is enraged during most of the story due to losing the war, but its still pretty disappointing nonetheless.

Fernand is okay, though I feel a lack of development really hurts him. His betrayal of the deliverance doesn't really mean anything to me since the I can't control him outside of DLC. I felt a character like Orisin had a much more impactful betrayal, since the player actually controlled him and did see his relationship with Ephraim in the main game.

I think both are on par with Gangrel and Walhart as villains, and better than Validar, Grima, Garon, Hans, Iago, and Anakos.