What, to you, would be the best Avatar implementation?

[bethany81707]

3 hours ago, Crux said:

Regarding customization options, eye color please. Skintones would also be appreciated, and perhaps a general color scheme regarding their gear rather than the standard blue in every class. Choosing personality could be harder to do well, but it does sound appealing. I'm fine with either a special class or a default one, though in terms of reclassing it should probably be done in the style of fates rather than awakening.

Other than that... two-tone hair color options maybe?

I just want each army to have a different colour scheme. Like how Crimea wears white, Daein black, Begnion red, etc.

[DefyingFates]

I half expected some of the responses this got but it's really interesting seeing what everyone has to say. I have a few ideas myself but keep in mind that I haven't played Awakening or Fates, so there's your warning before I go any further:

I know Corrin isn't very popular as a character but I still think the Avatar as the main (or at least secondary) character can work. My only wish is that they work on how s/he's implemented, because from what I've seen of Fates and Awakening the CG cutscenes really stretch themselves to work the Avatar in (namely by obscuring their face or having 1st Person cameras, the latter of which I'm okay with).

What IS could do maybe give the Avatar a fixed name or title for the others to refer to them by regardless of gender or allegiance. They could also have a single male and single female voice so the Avatar can be voiced in cutscenes without needing to record the same lines over and over again (and maybe make it so that they're always gloved so you can have first person shots of their hands). I had some other ideas to "normalise" the different possible designs, but they all involved dialing back the amount of customisation which seems to be unpopular here too so I think I'll refrain :P

As for their weapons; I like both approaches of them having a unique class and the ability to customise their class, so perhaps a compromise: you play a prologue with a small team of characters, each with one of the main weapon types AFTER which you design your character. They would have a unique class, but you could determine the weapon they use, e.g. instead of "Tactician" you would have "Lance Tactician", "Sword Tactician", etc (I know those names are terrible but bear with me).

As for Supports, it makes sense from a mechanical perspective for a self-insert to be able to get to S-class with everyone though I get that this could make them and the other characters inconsistent. The only solution I have for this is to spend time on the Supports so that they make sense (e.g. having a relationship with the shy one makes as much sense as the brash one) - which is admittedly a challenge and may require adding further support levels (which I'm fine with, not counting the additional work needed) - and limit everyone else's supports instead (and these could be the standard C to A Supports instead).

As for making sure the Avatar's personality is what each player wants it to be, there could be dialogue options. These could be only for non-plot critical moments (e.g. Link in BOTW can be a jerk to people but still wants to save the day) or to unlock side chapters (i.e. you get tasked to save and recruit a new character if you're polite to their friend), though the latter could get annoying if you want to play a certain way and still want to see everything the game has to offer - maybe you'd just get those side chapters earlier (and/ or easier versions) if you're kind instead.

I feel like there's something I wanted to say but am forgetting, but I just wanted to throw my hat in the ring since I was the one who made the thread in the first place :P

[Sire]

For me, Xenoblade Chronicles X style.

You play as a character who more or less tags along the "important" people in the story. Yes, your character is awesome and a bad***, but in terms of the main plot your character is basically irrelevant. There may be some "Avatar Character" moments here and there, but the main story revolves around the main lord, not your "insert character." As for an idea I always had, have the character be a "champion" or "bodyguard" of the main lord. The Avatar is new to the position and gets dragged along for the ride (the "Academy" could serve as the tutorial levels before the Avatar gets hired by the main lord, where the proper story begins).

On a side note, let me create an Avatar Army like in Awakening. I like making multiple avatars and like running them together (so I can ship two avatars together instead of a character in the game.)

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, Sire said:

(so I can ship two avatars together instead of a character in the game.)

You want to ship two characters who are supposed to represent you? So basically you want to... go fuck yourself?

[Sire]

Just now, Slumber said:

You want to ship two characters who are supposed to represent you? So basically you want to... go fuck yourself?

Yes.

In all seriousness, I'm a storyteller that likes creating characters. When I make avatars, I tend to use characters from my stories and adapt them to whatever I'm currently doing. So, if I end up using a character that has a love-interest, then the love-interest needs to be implemented as well. The same case applies if I end up using a sibling character or using a parent / child dynamic, having the other(s) along just makes sense.

Plus it is fun every now and then to do a "pure Avatar" run of FE games instead of using the main cast.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'd like some skin tone options. Choosing stuff like personality or having dialogue options would be great, but skin tone is quick and easy to put in a game as the choice wouldn't impact the story or writing. The only thing I could see it affecting is if the story includes direct relatives of the avatar, they'd have to have a similar skin tone. Or just create another Validar and not care. Relatives of playable characters seem to be a rarity in these japanese games, but relatives of an avatar character are a golden goose by comparison, so it may not be a problem.

[Spoiler Alert]

23 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

How do you reconcile these two ideas? You say in one part you want the avatar to have a limited support pool but in the next you say players shouldn't be restricted when choosing to pair up with their favorite characters.

I apologize for not being clear about that.  I didn’t mean for "favorite characters" to imply any playable character in the case of limited supports.  I meant favorite characters out of who is available in the support pool.  I actually like the ability to support everyone, but I understand the writing issues that come it.  That’s why I’m willing to compromise on the amount of supports.

23 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

If the support pool doesn't change, and the things the avatar says doesn't change, can it really be said they have a distinct personality? Is my brash, arrogant Avatar going to interact with people in the same way my shy, bookish Avatar would?

That was bad wording on my part.  I'm fine with personalities and variations as a result of that, but how many possible personalities should be available in the first place?  Why should their personality carry so much weight if the avatar isn't the main character?  I think the issue I’m having is by emphasizing personality so much is figuring if you want a mix and match preset character, or for the players to build their own character?  Personality can be subjective, even in video games, which is another reason why I’m so against tying it to supports.  If I entertain that support pools are going to be limited by a choice, then I’d rather have it connected to something more concrete such as how Fates used loyalty.  (Haven’t played Fates so I can’t talk about it much.)

19 hours ago, a bear said:

Supports are already slightly locked in Awakening (S ranks, children, specifics like with Chrom) or significantly in Fates (same as Awakening plus path differences). Even then, seeing all of the supports isn't something you're expected to grind out in a single playthrough anyway. I'd consider it a bonus to want to play the game again to see new dialogue anyway.

Just because it's not recommended doesn’t mean someone isn’t going to try anyway.  That’s fine, I simply don’t see personality locked supports as a good way to personalize the avatar or increase replay value.

19 hours ago, a bear said:

The main reason for limited supports in the first place is for writing quality. Having everyone support multiple personalities means either every personality is written the same (making personalities meaningless) or IS has to write supports for each personality with each character (meaning they'll likely be terrible given the sheer amount of writing to be done). Even then, do we really need our self-insert to always be everyone's best friend?

I am completely aware of and understand this.  (Regarding the bolded part) Of course not.  That’s not the only alternative.  Supports can tackle a number of topics.  It’s only up to Intelligent Systems whether or not to actually bother with more variety.

[NekoKnight]

34 minutes ago, Spoiler Alert said:

That was bad wording on my part.  I'm fine with personalities and variations as a result of that, but how many possible personalities should be available in the first place?  Why should their personality carry so much weight if the avatar isn't the main character?  I think the issue I’m having is by emphasizing personality so much is figuring if you want a mix and match preset character, or for the players to build their own character?  Personality can be subjective, even in video games, which is another reason why I’m so against tying it to supports.  If I entertain that support pools are going to be limited by a choice, then I’d rather have it connected to something more concrete such as how Fates used loyalty.  (Haven’t played Fates so I can’t talk about it much.)

Bold 1: The way I see it, By choosing a personality and narrowing down the support pool, you're essentially making a preset character, with a distinct personality and relationships just like any other minor playable character in the game. Even the avatars we have now are preset characters, but we have even less of a choice in how they behave, and their ability to support everyone strips them of any meaningful qualities. 

Bold 2: Fate support pools are determined by which route you play; half of the cast for each of the first two routes and essentially the entire cast for the third route. If there was a game with a large variety factions to choose from, I could see that being used to determine who you can support with, but it would again run into the problem of "not everyone you talk to is going to want to be your friend".

The problem I have with some people's notion of choosing a personality and having the ability to support everyone is that these two things can't co-exist unless you change the script for every conversation depending on the selected personality.

[Armagon]

4 hours ago, Sire said:

For me, Xenoblade Chronicles X style.

You play as a character who more or less tags along the "important" people in the story. Yes, your character is awesome and a bad***, but in terms of the main plot your character is basically irrelevant. There may be some "Avatar Character" moments here and there, but the main story revolves around the main lord, not your "insert character." As for an idea I always had, have the character be a "champion" or "bodyguard" of the main lord. The Avatar is new to the position and gets dragged along for the ride (the "Academy" could serve as the tutorial levels before the Avatar gets hired by the main lord, where the proper story begins).

On a side note, let me create an Avatar Army like in Awakening. I like making multiple avatars and like running them together (so I can ship two avatars together instead of a character in the game.)

I agree with this. Cross was one of the best avatars i have ever seen. I think if Fire Emblem were to adopt the Xenoblade X formula of avatars, it would be much better. While i liked Kris, Robin and Corrin, i never really treated them as avatars, especially the latter two, since they make their own decisions. Robin and Corrin felt more like established characters than avatars tbh. But if Fire Emblem Switch were to use a Xenoblade X style avatar, then the avatar would actually be an avatar.

Of course, having a Xenoblade X styled avatar in Fire Emblem means having all those crazy hair colors, so that's a bonus.

[Ae†her]

I imagine it would be hard to make an avatar with multiple variations in personality and dialogue as options, so I think a default type of avatar that represents qualities that everyday people want to hone themselves. I think a avatar who has unique descent would be a perfect way to try and set up this sort of character. Your avatar is from the "the Outrealms" and has special transcendental powers that make him a special unit, maybe with his own cosmic axe named Radeon, or whatever xP. Anyways this avatar could be customized anyway, in terms of body-type, skin-tone, hair-color...etc. This character is only for the first time learning about the world of humans up close so he is very open-minded and understanding of the people he meets and the situations he faces (unlike a certain an MU). 

[SavageVolug]

First of all my real opinion is that the avatar always ends up stealing the spotlight from the protagonist in every Fire Emblem game he/she appears in, the only exception to this rule is Mark in FE7, and thus should just be eliminated entirely. However, if an avatar HAS to be in the game you select your class line be it mercenary, mage or even draco rider vs having a predetermined unique class. Also you are given a pool of points that can be spent in various stats essentially you create your own bases and a similar thing is done for your growths kind of like in Fallout. Thus making the avatar more specific to the player, I would suggest expanding the customizable options where you have different builds beyond just short or tall. In addition I would like to do more creative things with the avatar such as maybe giving him a scar, an eyepatch and a full beard and mustache. When it comes to weapons well obviously that would depend on what class the player selects, I would suggest that we pick a background and personality for the avatar but the game starts us off as the rookie recruit of the game instead of automatically being given this important position like tactician for the entire army.

[FireEmblemFan93]

On 6/2/2017 at 9:52 AM, DefyingFates said:

I half expected some of the responses this got but it's really interesting seeing what everyone has to say. I have a few ideas myself but keep in mind that I haven't played Awakening or Fates, so there's your warning before I go any further:

I know Corrin isn't very popular as a character but I still think the Avatar as the main (or at least secondary) character can work. My only wish is that they work on how s/he's implemented, because from what I've seen of Fates and Awakening the CG cutscenes really stretch themselves to work the Avatar in (namely by obscuring their face or having 1st Person cameras, the latter of which I'm okay with).

What IS could do maybe give the Avatar a fixed name or title for the others to refer to them by regardless of gender or allegiance. They could also have a single male and single female voice so the Avatar can be voiced in cutscenes without needing to record the same lines over and over again (and maybe make it so that they're always gloved so you can have first person shots of their hands). I had some other ideas to "normalise" the different possible designs, but they all involved dialing back the amount of customisation which seems to be unpopular here too so I think I'll refrain :P

As for their weapons; I like both approaches of them having a unique class and the ability to customise their class, so perhaps a compromise: you play a prologue with a small team of characters, each with one of the main weapon types AFTER which you design your character. They would have a unique class, but you could determine the weapon they use, e.g. instead of "Tactician" you would have "Lance Tactician", "Sword Tactician", etc (I know those names are terrible but bear with me).

As for Supports, it makes sense from a mechanical perspective for a self-insert to be able to get to S-class with everyone though I get that this could make them and the other characters inconsistent. The only solution I have for this is to spend time on the Supports so that they make sense (e.g. having a relationship with the shy one makes as much sense as the brash one) - which is admittedly a challenge and may require adding further support levels (which I'm fine with, not counting the additional work needed) - and limit everyone else's supports instead (and these could be the standard C to A Supports instead).

As for making sure the Avatar's personality is what each player wants it to be, there could be dialogue options. These could be only for non-plot critical moments (e.g. Link in BOTW can be a jerk to people but still wants to save the day) or to unlock side chapters (i.e. you get tasked to save and recruit a new character if you're polite to their friend), though the latter could get annoying if you want to play a certain way and still want to see everything the game has to offer - maybe you'd just get those side chapters earlier (and/ or easier versions) if you're kind instead.

I feel like there's something I wanted to say but am forgetting, but I just wanted to throw my hat in the ring since I was the one who made the thread in the first place :P

Isn't popular the male version placed 5th in polls, the female place 1st in the female polls Corrin is popular he/she is a mix bag just in the west.

 

[Medeus]

Don't make the Avatar the lord of the game, while IS has had issues with balancing the Avatar both as a lord (Corrin) and as a supporting protagonist (Kris, Robin), I feel making him the latter is the lesser of two evils here. With Corrin there were too many characters that he had wrapped around his little finger and a good chunk of them suffer in their characterization because of it. If the Avatar is a supporting protagonist, while it won't completely avoid the issue it should lessen it since there won't be a need to have characters play support for them.

If the Avatar isn't the main character, don't make the lord too reliant on him. One of the major problems about Kris was that Marth leaned too much on them to the point that it felt like his character regressed from his Shadow Dragon counterpart. A balance needs to be struck where the Avatar can support the lord, but doesn't do so to the point that the lord seems to barely function without him. Similarly, keep their role in the plot minimal. I don't mind the idea of the Avatar having a role but they can't overshadow characters like they have been in the past few games.

If the Avatar is going to be more defined as a character, don't be afraid to let the Avatar character fail and grow. Corrin's major problem is that their flaws don't really come into play, and if they do they aren't truly learned from and the story brushes it aside. It's OK to let the Avatar have failures, everyone makes mistakes, allow the character to do it and let them grow from it as I don't think players would hate their Avatar as long as they're likeable in other ways.

On a related note, if they are a defined character, as mentioned before give them a more varied personality. All three of the previous Avatar had basic traits so that they didn't clash in personality with the other characters, but it also meant that in the story they didn't have anything truly interesting about them and made them come off as completely bland and most of their conversations lack anything of note. If they have to be in the story, they should have more to them then just the basic traits, give them more to work with so that they can have more in-depth interactions with the other members of the cast and more properly react to what's happening in the plot.

Finally, I'll revoice better customization options. Corrin and Robin were surprisingly limited in how you could customize your character, and I think there should be more added into them to make them more unique for the player.

[The Geek]

I like the proposed ideas of the Chronicler Avatar who is around to record everything that's happening and of having an Avatar in the style of Cross from Xenoblade X.

Cross was a well done Avatar because they barely figure into the main plot (all flaws with Xenoblade X's story aside as none of them can be ascribed to the Avatar) but are a big deal in side content.  That way we could still have all our waifus and such which as we all know are the best part of Fire Emblem and have the Avatar be a badass character in terms of gameplay.

[Sentinel07]

On 6/3/2017 at 8:29 AM, FireEmblemFan93 said:

Isn't popular the male version placed 5th in polls, the female place 1st in the female polls Corrin is popular he/she is a mix bag just in the west.

 

Corrin's popular because of the ability to marry anyone's favorite male or female characters. No one likes their personality.

[FireEmblemFan93]

12 hours ago, Sentinel07 said:

Corrin's popular because of the ability to marry anyone's favorite male or female characters. No one likes their personality.

You really don't that maybe on the internet you do but not so much in Japan.

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

Now that I think about it someone did make a VERY good point here where they said "each Avatars importance grow with every game" that is true from Mark(observer not playable)-Kris(playable important guard)-Robin(playable key plot main character with the 2nd Lord)-Corrin(Primary protagonist Lord) I honestly now don't see a downgrade to their position if anything I see 2 outcomes:

1. A sole primary protagonist like Corrin but more reworked

2. A 2nd-3rd Lord with other main characters

Plus the marriage mechanic will obviously still be a major factor for them as well.

[KliffIsTheOG]

Write the story and characters as if there were no avatar, and then just make the main lord or a side character customizable and CALL them an avatar. This way, there won't be a super bland personality, and the people who want an avatar can have one

Edited June 13, 2017 by KliffIsTheOG

[Spoiler Alert]

On 6/2/2017 at 9:13 PM, NekoKnight said:

Bold 1: The way I see it, By choosing a personality and narrowing down the support pool, you're essentially making a preset character, with a distinct personality and relationships just like any other minor playable character in the game. Even the avatars we have now are preset characters, but we have even less of a choice in how they behave, and their ability to support everyone strips them of any meaningful qualities. 

Bold 2: Fate support pools are determined by which route you play; half of the cast for each of the first two routes and essentially the entire cast for the third route. If there was a game with a large variety factions to choose from, I could see that being used to determine who you can support with, but it would again run into the problem of "not everyone you talk to is going to want to be your friend".

That makes sense, but I still think that method is a little too strict with supports.  This is an interesting discussion (that took me forever to get back to) but I'll leave things at that.  

[Anomalocaris]

Here's my two cents.

In terms of plot relevance, some kind of mix between pre-Grima-reveal Robin and the XCX protagonist would be a good idea; they're not the main character and aren't directly tied to the plot, but are still valuable to the army and the main character seeks their counsel on things. For story justification, I was thinking that they could be a trainee under the actual royal tactician, but he gets assassinated early on so the avatar has to assume his duties despite still being an amateur. Their "character arc" could be them simply growing into the role, which could actually line up with the player themself getting better at the game's mechanics. Backstory-wise the avatar's nothing special. No being royalty, no being a dragon god, no amnesia, just an everyman/everywoman thrust into a war.

Now, once we've toned down their story involvement and unneeded shilling, I'd honestly be fine with them keeping most of the mechanical implementations Fates gave 'em; let them access all the classes with A-ranks, let them S-support whomever they want, maybe even give them a unique class (mostly so they can have access to both their physical and magic stats from the get-go, to accomodate a variety of stat spreads). Just... don't go and have every character gush about how great they are at every given moment like New Mystery and Fates. I'm okay with them being a unique and special gameplay unit, just not a unique and special person.

A few times here I've seen a suggestion to throttle the avatar's support options based on a chosen personality, and while it would be realistic that some personality types are just incompatible as friends or romantic partners, I feel like that's a very bad idea. Primarily because a lot of people play video games to escape reality, so being told "sorry, you're too brash/meek/loud/quiet/outgoing/introverted/emotional/logical/warm/cold for this person to even give you the time of day, let alone be your friend or lover" is kind of a downer, especially if someone's favorite character happens to be arbitrarily incompatible with the player's chosen personality type. It's a lesson in the harshness of reality, perhaps, but at that point you're getting into weird meta-conceptual "playing the player" shit where good gameplay is sacrificed just to make a point. I'd rather be able to meet all the characters, decide which ones I like, and pursue supports with them rather than have to decide ahead of time how to define myself, or lie about my personality just to beat the system.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Anomalocaris

[NinjaMonkey]

Robin, except he/she is the main character. None of this "is secondary to the actual main character" garbage. Also, they are able to reclass into anything, unlike Corrin.

Edited June 20, 2017 by NinjaMonkey

[Dandy Druid]

I'd basically echo people about less story involvement, so I'm gonna skip that and go to the fun part: customization.

• More hair options
• More body types
• background choice (ruffian, mercenary, beggar, entertainer, nobleman, pool boy)
• choose our class (I want to be the dancer! That person has two left feet! LET IT BE MEEEEEEE!)
• choose our personality (personality + background will affect support pool too. I think this adds more replay-ability)
• choose our outfits (I want to be the fashion fighter!)
• facial hair
• makeup options
• eye color option
• skin tone
• race (what if I want to be a laguz?, if shifters are present. They'll most likely be)

[Fala]

If we're going to have an avatar character I want them to be the view point character that records everything for future historians but not THE Hero.

I also want a legit rival to the Avatar. A Sima Yi to the Avatar's Zhuge Liang, to use Dynasty Warriors as a reference.

[Junkhead]

I think Heroes does it almost perfectly. You feel involved, but not to the point it develops into it's own character (which pretty much defeats the purpose of having one in the first place). While I enjoy the supports in Awakening and Fates, the way it's play out somewhat degrades the series into newercomers thinking it's some sort of lame dating sim.

[a bear]

On 6/20/2017 at 0:19 AM, Anomalocaris said:

A few times here I've seen a suggestion to throttle the avatar's support options based on a chosen personality, and while it would be realistic that some personality types are just incompatible as friends or romantic partners, I feel like that's a very bad idea. Primarily because a lot of people play video games to escape reality, so being told "sorry, you're too brash/meek/loud/quiet/outgoing/introverted/emotional/logical/warm/cold for this person to even give you the time of day, let alone be your friend or lover" is kind of a downer, especially if someone's favorite character happens to be arbitrarily incompatible with the player's chosen personality type. It's a lesson in the harshness of reality, perhaps, but at that point you're getting into weird meta-conceptual "playing the player" shit where good gameplay is sacrificed just to make a point. I'd rather be able to meet all the characters, decide which ones I like, and pursue supports with them rather than have to decide ahead of time how to define myself, or lie about my personality just to beat the system.

The main argument for limited supports is that it's a compromise for writing quality. Most people would be down for Everyone x Everyone if IS knew how to manage all of it, but we've seen them try it with Radiant Dawn and somewhat with the 3DS games. Whether that's better than GBA-style is another matter; I suppose I actually prefer 3DS-style just for the flexibility even if there's a lot of garbage (but then there's always crap supports, so eh).

Alternatively, the ol' silent avatar with monologues for supports and a personality defined by voice clips. I'd rather have my guy talk back though.