Opinions on Invoke and Conjure?

[Interdimensional Observer]

Summoners are something a few FE fans who never played Gaiden or TRS have been wanting, perhaps from the truncated version given in SS or Izuka's map in RD. With Shadows of Valentia doing summoning in full force for both the player and the enemy, a mass audience has now been exposed to this mechanic. And so I ask, whatcha think of Invoke and Conjure?

 

For myself I felt enemy Conjuring began as something of a threat with Revenants and Bonewalkers in the beginning, and which it remained to be on the one occasion it was Necrodragons, but Gargoyles, the bulk of later monster summons, were just annoying since most of the time their attack was too low to be a serious threat. And Witches were an ugly thing I loathed, for their AI is annoyingly randomized and erratic- RNG and variability I embrace as an FE fan, but not so much with Witches. I tried when possible to capitalize on their almost absolute preference when teleporting to go for peripheral/isolated units and clustered my units together with the most vulnerable near to the core, which worked for the most part. That said, I don't think they ever attacked my lonely Delthea during the Marla battle- although two in the same turn once teleported to Alm who was going it alone vs. the Barons. Mogalls were annoying during the Jedah fight, and they have competent stats, but had I not gone for the Jedah kill, it wouldn't have been so bad, just a bit slower and more cautioned approach than vs. Gargoyles. Their final battle appearance was mostly problematic only insofar as they interfered with me fighting Duma and liked to spawn in Gharn(ef)'s Medusa range.

Spoiler

And by the way IS- you gave zero indication that Marla and Heste will stop their Conjuring if somebody gets in Aura range! I had to repeat the fight, as an Illusion killed Marla after she killed Faye and thus ended the battle before I could, justifiably, Turnwheel things- and I had no idea the Alm revival fountain was 10 minutes away.

 

As for Invoke, I liked it a lot and owed several battles to it's amazingness. Okay, Tatiana's Pegasus Knights were a severe disappointment, but that was the only disappointment Invoke gave me. Genny's Soldiers were amazing decoys/bait and heatsinks, and the one fight on Celica's route vs. a Shadow Sword Myrmidon was won by sniping the guy with arrows and magic in a narrow spot between rough terrain and the northeast supplies spot, while Genny kept spamming Soldiers so the boss never touched my guys. And then there was Slique. I spent a lot of tedious grinding unlocking her Invoke (I nabbed it early Act 4 I think- before Berkut 2 maybe- a tad too early to be balanced methinks), but it was so very much worth it! Her Dread Fighters were pretty strong. They're durable bait, but also mobile and effective Witch/Arcanist slayers too.

Two overly long accounts of my use of Silque's Invoke:

Spoiler

The Siege of Nuibaba's Mountain Fortress began with me send my Dread Fighter Tobin to dispatch the Arcanists (I couldn't fight Nuibaba without the Witch map group spawning). After dispatching them and the Witches and other defenders beneath the fortress with my other units, I got to the dilemma of how to invade the fortress in light of the PC killer of Medusa. My solution? I had Slique spam Invoke and watched as they bravely climbed the mountains. Only the enemy's own Dread Fighters with a critical could ORKO my Illusory Dreads, and Medusa deals half-damage to them due to Apotrope. And thus the siege began! I parked everyone outside of Medusa's range, arranging all of the units who could laugh off the Gargoyles (which were many) to protect my frail allies, while Grey and Python sniped off the Bow Knight, quickly with luck, and other foes who got in range. They even tried attacks within the utmost edge of Medusa range when Slique didn't need to use a turn to Invoke or Expel some Gargoyles (because the DFs are that strong here) because she could warp them out of it (Faye had gone Peg). Eventually attrition won the day, as my DFs reached the top of the mountain and killed Nuibaba, who for some bizarre reason had spent several turns when few human enemies where left using Fortify, which helped deplete her health. I forget how the Cantor died, but I do recall that the last enemy alive was a Dread Fighter whom I symbolically finished off with Alm warped right into the center of the fortress.

It was fun! It reminded me of World War I (or maybe it'd be more accurate to compare it to WWII's Battle of Monte Cassino). Over the trenches men! Forward charge until you're in the enemy's camp- no turning back! It wasn't very FE like not giving more than a passing care for my units' lives, rather, it reminded me of Advance Wars and the tried and true cheapo strategy called Mech Rush.

And then for the final battle I saw there was yet another Medusa user, alongside the Conjure Witch sisters and the final boss. Oh joy, better have Silque summon her final aeon right now. After using nearly everyone to smash Judeh and handle the first group of Mogalls (Alm also soloed the design-wise unnecessary trio of human units north of his position), I began approaching Doma, when a Illusory Dread Fighter revealed to me that Doma moves! Sure it's a mere 3 spaces and his hit rates are low (the Dreads had almost a coin flip chance of living if they took 1 turn of poison damage), but for a guy with range 5 magic attacks and loads of Atk, that was dangerous in conjunction with the Mogalls, Medusa, and Witches. So basically I just spammed Dreads and Tatiana's Fortify plus Physic from Genny while I arranged my units against the Witches teleports and staying out of Doma's range, but otherwise as close as I could get. Eventually, in conjunction with a little Magic Ring or Bow sniping if my memory serves me right, my Dread Fighters chopped down the Witches, and then began to work on the Mogalls (who doubled the Dreads, but again couldn't ORKO barring a critical), again with backup from my distance units and their protectors. After the Mogalls, the Medusa man fell eventually too. And even after they were all dead and my turned-20/20-in-this-fight Alm could finally work alone on Doma without a fear of dying, I continued to spam them to distract Doma from targeting Alm.

And since I played blind regarding numerous facets of this game, I had no idea Cleric Faye got Rescue (I didn't even realize they added it) or Sage Tobin Physic- together these two things could have done a lot to curtail my need for Slique's DFs. Alternatively, I could have just baited Doma beyond Medusa range- which I considered.

RIP all the noble mirages illusions who lost their fabricated existences in service of Alm's and Celica's causes. Your sacrifice will be remembered.

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[DragonLord]

Invoke was a GODSEND for me in the Tower of Duma and the final map. Seriously, the AI targeting the summoned units before my own saved my skin far too many times. 

[Midnight Torch]

Granny's invoke was a huge help at the Seaside Shrine and the fight against Deen.

[Limstella]

Invoke was a lot more helpful than I thought it would be. They saved my team on  multiple occasions and are great bait for the AI. The HP cost is pretty fair and it's been way more useful than the 1 turn amiibo art. 

[property of nuvelle]

Invoke is a gift from the gods. Genny is the only one with it right now but it's easy bait.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Invoke is good, but pretty much too good in Echoes, since it always redirects attention except in very very rare occasions, letting you cheese even the final boss in a way. But the final boss' numbers on Hard are a teeny bit unfair to begin with, so perhaps the whole game is just broken.

I'd like to see something similar return in future games, but toned down.

[TheTrueKnight]

1 hour ago, DragonLord said:

Invoke was a GODSEND for me in the Tower of Duma and the final map. Seriously, the AI targeting the summoned units before my own saved my skin far too many times. 

Yep, when your team is a bit too weak it's really helpful! Otherwise it's useless. (It helped me a lot on my first run)

1 hour ago, KongDude said:

Invoke is a gift from the gods. Genny is the only one with it right now but it's easy bait.

With DLC, Male Mages can get an incredibly powerful Invoke spell!

[NekoKnight]

It's an interesting concept but heavily flawed. The player summons are too effective at distracting enemies and enemy summoners just make maps super tedious. For allies, they should change the AI to not make the illusions the enemies' primary targets. For enemy summoners, they should make "unlimited summon spam" a single map gimmick instead of it being how every summoner is handled. Otherwise, summoners should have a limit on how much they can summon.

[MediocreLee]

I really like Invoke/Summoning, even when it was poorly done in Sacred Stones.  Just being able to call upon something to help you out, even for a little bit, is good.  In SoV it helped quite a bit since enemies would go after the things you summoned to the field which can save some characters.  However, with that said it was a little too powerful 'cause it would make hard battles into rather easy ones.

Would definitely love to see it return.

[YingofDarkness]

Enemy summoners are annoying to fight. The only thing they are good for is grinding and even then it takes so long for just one unit to get a level up (because of how little experience they give). They make the maps more tedious and less fun to play. Don't even talk to me about the final map and the witch and mogall spam that happened in my playthrough because I was terrified of that one dude's Medusa.

Invoke was the opposite were it was such a broken mechanic that it makes maps much easier to deal with because the enemy AI will target only them. I remember that same final map where I just started invoke spamming with Tatiana to get close enough to the other to kill everybody and distract Duma. Made that level a lot more fun by simply making it less tedious.

Both should get nerfed though going into the future. Summoners should either have cooldown times where they won't just be spamming summons every other turn, or have a cap on how many summons can be on the map at one time. Invoke shouldn't always draw the enemy's attention away, or if it does at least make it so that the bosses won't get so easily distracted and will go after any unit they can do the most damage too/kill.

[Sire]

Enemy summoners are fine for me to deal with, but at times they can get annoying rather quickly (especially when multiple summoners are present on the same map). If they were to return to future installments, I would like to see enemy summoners not only have a max field limit, but a max summon limit as well. This way there will be a definite end in sight instead of endless summons (unless unlimited spawns are a gimmick in said map). If we were to stick to Echoes mechanics for summoning (HP drain), then let the HP drain until they can not summon any more instead of replenishing that HP.

As for Invoke, while I did not spam Invoke at every opportunity I must admit Invoke is definitely useful in baiting attacks. The summoned units being priority targets helps a lot if caught out of position. If player summoners were to return, I would like more powerful summons (preferably scaling with the character), but summon less units overall. They should be treated like any other player unit in terms of being targeted instead of almost always being hit.

[Frenzify]

In the map at I think the Temple of Mila, Genny's sole purpose became using Invoke to constantly create decoys. Whilst it did feel a little bit cheap, I felt like it was my only way of defeating the map. It's the same at the end. In the final map I had Silque use Invoke to divert attention away. Sometimes it did make things difficult, because the units would surround Duma, and prevent Alm from getting to him with a melee attack. But yeah, Invoke was a pretty essential skill for me at times.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Frenzify

[Thane]

Never again.

Invoke completely neuters the enemy phase while Conjure turns maps into slogs. If something like this must return, there needs to be some heavy tweaks and far more emphasis on quality rather than quantity.

[Captain Karnage]

I like the ability,

it's just that the enemy summons way to much at one time, well, basic 2/2 zombies aren't that bad,

it's summoners that summon gargoyles and necrodragons need to f@#k off, they're way to obnoxious to deal with

[MeddlingMage]

I like it because at some points in the game, Conjure can help you grind if you want to.  Like on Celica's side before you face the first 2 Necrodragons.  Invoke can save your butt too, especially with those 2 Necrodragons.  But at some point in the game, Conjure can get a little boring.

[TheTrueKnight]

I didn't use Conjure a lot, but it almost never worked for me.

[joshcja]

Invoke is nuts, either as a fog generator for Genny/Tatiana or as a "map ends now" for Silque.

Conjure is basically reinforcements, but you can kill the stairs.

[joshcja]

The clone post strikes again. Remove please.

Edited June 5, 2017 by joshcja

[FoxyGrandpa]

I like Conjure in Maps like Grieth's fortress and Mila's temple. Forces the player to keep moving in order to quickly get rid of the monster spawns, while at the same time acting as a decent substitute for reinforcements. Best part is that, unlike actual reinforcements, they don't give much exp, preventing you from grinding on them as much.

Most of my issues with Conjure stem more with the enemies rather than the spell itself. Gargoyles have a bit too much speed, bulk, and power for my liking, as do bonewalkers, and Revenants are a bit too tanky as well.

Invoke is good, though the spell does have several issues, such as limiting player movement. AI is also a bit wonky. Personally liked the summoner's phantom in FE8 a lot more because the player could actually control that.

[Luxian]

So far Invoke has been useful, but that's all, I don't especially like it. It is broken, while also being a curse for the summoner. I mean, I was surrounded by Gargoyles in the Temple of Mila's map, and Genny summoned Illusions that surrounded her. So I couldn't heal her with Celica, and she was shot by a passing Archer that I haven't paid attention to.... Screw my carelessness... Else it saved my skin  quite some times.  Yet, I tend to forget this mechanic is here unless I'm in a pinch.
Also I wonder why the number of invocations is random. When I saw the "up to eight units summoned max" in the description, I had thought that you could summon as many illusions as you wish up to 8 Illusion but the more you summon, the more HP you sacrifice. Then I tested it, and I was disappointed to see it was random. Sometimes, I hoped that I had summoned 8 Illusions and I only summoned 4 and it wasn't enough to protect all my units (or I could also try less risky tactics, but it isn't really my playstyle...).
My other complaint is how the level of the invocations don't scale with the summoner's. the Illusions are so weak it hurts... They are just meat shield...minus the meat part. Well, I don't want them to steal my units' exp either but 1 damage is pretty lame.

On the other hand, Conjure is extremely annoying. Sending raids of Gargoyles was the worst thing they could have done... And I haven't come across Dolth yet, but I'm sure the Necrodragons will be a pleasure to deal with... Not to mention they put Cantors on Supplies tile, which makes the fight even more tedious that it already was. Not to mention the Creatures are too weak to bring enough EXP.

In the end, I think Invoke was OK, but I think it can be much better. And they need to tone down with Conjure, I had enough with Cantors already, and the game hasn't ended yet

[DIO]

1 hour ago, Luxian said:

So far Invoke has been useful, but that's all, I don't especially like it. It is broken, while also being a curse for the summoner. I mean, I was surrounded by Gargoyles in the Temple of Mila's map, and Genny summoned Illusions that surrounded her. So I couldn't heal her with Celica, and she was shot by a passing Archer that I haven't paid attention to.... Screw my carelessness... Else it saved my skin  quite some times.  Yet, I tend to forget this mechanic is here unless I'm in a pinch.
Also I wonder why the number of invocations is random. When I saw the "up to eight units summoned max" in the description, I had thought that you could summon as many illusions as you wish up to 8 Illusion but the more you summon, the more HP you sacrifice. Then I tested it, and I was disappointed to see it was random. Sometimes, I hoped that I had summoned 8 Illusions and I only summoned 4 and it wasn't enough to protect all my units (or I could also try less risky tactics, but it isn't really my playstyle...).
My other complaint is how the level of the invocations don't scale with the summoner's. the Illusions are so weak it hurts... They are just meat shield...minus the meat part. Well, I don't want them to steal my units' exp either but 1 damage is pretty lame.

On the other hand, Conjure is extremely annoying. Sending raids of Gargoyles was the worst thing they could have done... And I haven't come across Dolth yet, but I'm sure the Necrodragons will be a pleasure to deal with... Not to mention they put Cantors on Supplies tile, which makes the fight even more tedious that it already was. Not to mention the Creatures are too weak to bring enough EXP.

In the end, I think Invoke was OK, but I think it can be much better. And they need to tone down with Conjure, I had enough with Cantors already, and the game hasn't ended yet

Honestly, Dolth was pretty fun to fight IMO, even when I had the misfortune to land on his tile after he summoned a replacement Necrodragon encounter (four more of the winged bonepiles to deal with at the start). I wish the Gargoyles weren't used so heavily; they were okay at first but then became insufferable due to getting the most summons on average (I think I can count on one hand the times that there were less than five) and just being a stupidly done foe that doubles chip damage and clogs up the battleground.

 

I think I'd like to see Conjure/Invoke again, but it does need to be tweaked. Maybe mix it with the Dragon Veins/Supply tiles and make it only possible from a certain space for a limited time. Then it becomes less of a slog to the enemy that doesn't even attack where the map is your biggest threat (seriously, fuck the Cantors that ended up taking up Deen's map), but a constant movement between trying to eat up another mystical supply tile where you can catch them in transit. Meanwhile, Invoke SHOULD give you the choice of how many units you summon or at the very least how strong they'd be depending on how much health you sacrifice, say 7 lvl 1 soldiers for 8 health vs. 3 lv5 soldiers for the same cost. To build on this, invocations should have a 'timer' in the form of constantly taking damage at the start of their turn (like being on a hazard tile). Also, it'd be cool if they could branch out to make a customization aspect of what units you use, maybe via making a dedicated playable class out of Cantors that gets more unit types to access the more of a certain unit it kills?

[Shadow Mir]

Haven't played (yet), but echoing the sentiment that Conjure is a major pain in the ass. Especially when Medusa is involved - it doesn't matter how weak an enemy is if they only need to hit you to kill you. Even worse is that most Cantors happen to be parked on supplies, which covers the cost of their summons, in addition to making them a pain to hit.

[Emperor Hardin]

Silque's invoke is very helpful to have when you need a distraction or extra manpower to take care of small fry like summons. Apparently its possible in the remake to even get rare drops from enemies killed by summoned units.

[Terrador]

I love enemy Summoners in concept, they're a good encouragement to play fast and a fun supplement to keep maps engaging even at the relatively quiet points. It's also crazy fun to use Summons, though many maps are just about impervious to them (coincidence? dunno enough about Gaiden to say.)

[Florete]

I like them both. I think.

Conjure can be kind of tedious, but it keeps you occupied and gives you a specific objective so you can't just cheese maps by baiting out enemies one by one. Invoke I felt made some maps possible at all (I played Hard/Classic) while not being too overpowered because it won't just save you if your units are really close to dying. I used Silque's when I wanted to kill witches and Genny's when I wanted a lot of meatshields. Didn't have much use for Tatiana's.

They made for a different kind of experience, that's for sure.