Ike's Dissonance

[Elincia]

*A write up both me and my boyfriend (who isn't on the site,however) worked on together. This is rather long so if the mobs prefer this be posted somewhere else on the forum let me know as I'm still quite new here.

 

Ike, a character loved by many across the Fire Emblem community, who is generally praised for being a common mercenary, and not of noble birth when compared to other lords in the series, has many inherit flaws within his story that are almost never discussed and are generally hand waved without hesitation within the FE community. What those flaws are, I could occasionally express, but never as a cohesive whole until I randomly encountered (this video). In short, the whole idea behind this comes out as one common thread, one painful, out-of-tune note in the Tellius games that centers around Ike, and ends up tainting the wonder of the entire world’s cast: Ike, supposedly just a mercenary, still follows story habits of ‘chosen one’ royalty.

 

Ike makes his first appearance while he is in the middle of a training session with his father, Greil, after a quick lesson with Greil, Ike takes a couple missions, quickly earning his first command. The all so important first impression implants Ike as just a good guy mercenary. He wants what's best for people, is willing to disobey a direct order to do what he believes is right (not inherently wrong, mind you.), and aspires to at least match his father one day, a common idea across many cultures. Ike also comes off as being quite sheltered growing up, due to his lack of knowledge of the laguz or politics surrounding Daein. The writers use this tactic to explain the world’s unfamiliar aspects to the player, painting the player from Ike’s perspective. In other words, the writers made Ike naive so that older more cultured citizens of  Tellius could explain the world to Ike, and by extension, the player. This use of perspective does become problematic later, largely in the info scenes of PoR.

Ike's next ‘chosen oney’ scene is a memorable and emotional one. Had it been on a 3DS game, we would be making fun of it to this day, however, it’s in PoR, and involves Ike so it’s not a laughing stock. Of course, I’m referring to Greil vs the Black Knight scene. What makes this sequence follow the ‘chosen one’ stereotypes so horridly falls in two major areas. First, and the easy one to blame, the Black Knight’s armor and Ragnell. Magical armor that can only get pierced by divine weaponry stinks of chosen oneness. And of course, later in the game Ike remains the only character allowed to wield that weapon for literally no explained reason, other than for plot convenience. Just like any other ‘chosen one’ hero, they always have some special weapon or ability that only they can use. Fire Emblem employs this frequently in the form of divine weapons, most notably, the Falchion which literally stops being sharp (awakening), or the Royal Sword (SoV/Gaiden), which is too heavy for anyone else to use. In regards to divine weaponry, Sacred Stones stands out as the most generous and free for allowing its characters to use sacred weapons. As the only ones locked to specific characters are our famously memed incest twins. The simple existence of this blessed armor and weaponry defeats the entire purpose of making Ike a common mercenary, unless the point was to make him be this special chosen one destined to save the universe.

The second side effect of the Greil v Black Knight scene shows a less hard ‘this is clearly a chosen one story’ and more of an ironic violation of Ike’s inherent values. Ike reluctantly accepts the mantle of leadership of the Greil Mercenaries, despite Titania being the most qualified person to do so. He basically inherits leadership of the mercenary company, much like a Noble son would inherit control of his family's’ house once his father passes. Now, this sort of thing happens in life all the time, after all, the vast majority of wealthy people in the United States, a country famed for the rags to riches dream, descend from wealthy families. However, around this time, Ike expresses distaste for the idea of inheriting positions of power, and to further push the irony, pay attention to who he serves. Princess Elincia, a woman born to the throne of Crimea, who needs his help because Ashnard took over Crimea, and Daein before that, with his own personal ability. The game only offers a tiny moment of pointing out this massive rift in world view later in the plot. (Do take note of how all of the heroes, especially in RD inherit their position from birthright, with the exception being Sothe, who kinda gets there from marriage)

A moment to facepalm at, as a blatant chosen one symptom would be, is during Ike’s voyage to Begnion. Along the trip, the characters ram into some reefs and get stuck right next to Goldoan territory. According to that nation’s law, outsiders must be evicted or murdered, however, in true chosen one style, Ike lucks his way into meeting a prince who just so happens to be intrigued by Ike existence, and insists that the dragons offer their aid to help the protagonists out of their predicament. Again, there’s nothing inherently wrong about the concept of this scene. It offers a chance to introduce an important endgame character, Shows Ike being reckless and diplomatically inept, however, in no way would this be a believable part a story about a merc who accomplishes great deeds from their own merit. If nothing else, this would’ve been a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate the diplomatic ability of Elincia by having her negotiate a way out of it, yet alas, the focus of the story remains on Ike above all else, so he’s the one who must push the plot forward. Had the game's framing at least been allowed to deviate from Ike’s  perspective, then this fantastic journey and moment could happen without taking away Ike earning greatness of his own merit, not because of predestination.

Once Ike finally arrives in Begnion, he and Elincia are later given an audience with Empress Sanaki (another heroin earning her position from birthright.) Which first is a bit odd given that Elincia is the person of interest, not Ike. Had this game been given the freedom to shift away from Ike’s perspective on a consistent basis, then a likely outcome is only Elincia earning the ear of Sanaki. However, Ike again needs to drive the plot, and basically throws a temper tantrum that almost gets the Greil mercenaries killed, after Sanaki belittles Elincia and her position. Now Ike’s desire to stand up for Elincia isn’t inherently flawed, and it’s even consistent with his character; however, his actions could have cost him his life and taken away any possible Begnion support. But yet again, the birthright of nobility once again kicks in and Sanaki demonstrates mercy upon her new guests, allowing Ike to escape his blunder with naught but a stern warning. In stories that feature characters who do great things beyond their perceived born abilities, Ike would take some serious punishment here. Look to Roran from the Inheritance (Eragon) books. Roran, when he commits insubordination must suffer a public whipping for his actions. Or even the perfect confucian parable about just a man accomplishing great things: Admiral Yii Sun Shin. Had Yii been in Ike’s shoes after that mistake, Yii would’ve been at least been stripped of command and demoted to a common foot soldier. Yet, again, Ike gets away with naught but a stern warning. This reinforces Ike as someone special, and as a sort of ‘chosen one.’

After a series of interesting investigations that reveal that lesser nobles and self-made men do evil things, Sanaki offers her support to Elincia’s cause, and names Ike general. This moment has recently frustrated me, as there’s a far superior choice. One that would likely happen in a zero to hero type story, as well as one that just makes quite a bit of logical sense after abandoning the need to always center the Tellius universe around Ike: Elincia. Why would she not be named the figurehead to her own army? Sanaki wants to help Elincia be a strong leader able to fend off and control her own nobles, as well as having a leader on the Crimean throne able to handle the senators of Begnion better, so it naturally falls into Sanaki’s best interest to name Elincia as her own general. Not only this, but it wouldn’t involve forcing nobility onto someone who fundamentally despises it (yet only fights for monarchs who earn their throne from birthright), as apparently the Begnion forces only like taking orders from nobles. Even Sephiran showed some doubts about Ike leading this army, as he’s supposedly a symbol of a man achieving greatness without the right of birth. (the moment I reference lies at the end of the game) Again, the issue of forcing Ike to drive the plot rises up again, forcing the writers to put Ike in a more central role at all times. This creates perception issues like arguments used against me in discussion claiming that Ike aiding Elincia in Part 2 of RD would take away from her legitimacy. The only reason it does so, is the insistence for the plot to treat Ike like a chosen one, around whom the Tellius universe must revolve. Mercenaries function as an extension of their employer, in RD, Ike would simply be a part of Elincia’s strength, yet in the Tellius games, the writers seem to forget this, and place Ike higher on the army’s hierarchy over Elincia. Thankfully, some realism in that aspect came through in the form of the rebellion in RD’s part 2. 

At this point, a recurring theme shows up time and time again, Ike is supposed to represent a common merc, but the writers seemingly never learned how to write a zero to hero story, which leads to Ike getting split into a chosen one as well as the common hero. And that’s the reason I chose the the word ‘Dissonance’ in the title. In music, Dissonance is when two tones are close, but not in sync with each other, causing painfully disgusting noise. (Band kids reading this, tuning will never go away, and is absolutely critical for playing music people actually want to listen to.) ^1 (possible physics of dissonance tangent) Ike’s split between chosen one and common hero damages his character, and it’s at its worst in PoR. Had the game adopted framing techniques so that characters other than Ike could advance the plot as well as demonstrate moments of badassery (Okay, Elincia’s speech right before assaulting Ashnard is one such moment, but framing kinda ruined that one, too); then Ike could be a main character who isn’t a blue blood, but still accomplishes great things.

 

TL;DR: Ike’s framing leads to him fulfilling both lesser symptoms or terrible cliches of ‘chosen one’ arcs, yet he supposedly is supposed to be a common merc who accomplishes greatness upon his own merit.

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Elincia

[bethany81707]

This was an interesting read. I had an idea relating to this, and I reckon it's a good idea for me to take down these notes.

[Party Moth]

Dissonance can still be in tune. Dissonance in music is regarded as an instability and a need for resolution/consonance, not necessarily a "painfully disgusting noise." Without it, music has no conflict and resolution in a tonal structure; the tonic has no power without a dissonant precursor such as a leading tone or supertonic, and this is the basis of even simple tunes like "Happy Birthday." I wouldn't be as nitpicky if you just kept to a more broad sense of "dissonance" rather than specifying a musical sense of it, which correlates to tension and release akin to conflict and resolution in plot structure.

Regardless, interesting ideas here. It's important to remember that Ike being of the people rather than nobility is a flavor choice, and that his general path in the plot (of Path of Radiance in particular) is borrowed from the standard Fire Emblem template, which follows a sort of "Mandate of Heaven meets Monarchist" philosophy overall. It's Radiant Dawn where he begins to slowly pull away from that template, ultimately leading him to become a ruler of nothing but his own decisions. I also agree with you that Elincia could have had a stronger presence overall in Path of Radiance, and that Part 2 of Radiant Dawn is where she finally gets to come into her own.

[Luchi]

Well, this certainly was interesting. There goes Ike's supposed uniqueness for being the only non-noble Lord in the series. I myself wrote an article as to why he's my least favourite Lord/character in FE, and this article pretty much covered most of it pretty nicely. Though because it was more of a rant/essay, I've never posted it here for... reasons.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Luchi

[Jotari]

I don't really see how Sacred Stones is any better than Path of Radiance in terms of its exclusive legendary weapons.

I think your conflating the chosen one trope(s) with characters generally being the protagonist. And while I do agree that Elincia could have stood to have more presence in the story, I don't think the writers failure to do that should reflect badly on Ike. He was chosen to lead the army because he had proven himself capable of command. Not just in getting Elincia to Begnion but in doing those missions for Sanaki. They weren't just filler, it was Ike proving himself to her. Furthermore it's a plot point that Begnion is not leading the charge, they're covering the rear of the Crimean invasion force which is made up primarily of the units Ike has already been commanding from the very start. It wouldn't make sense for Elincia to start commanding them there since she has no military experience and Ike has been the one commanding them the entire time with stellar results (now she definitely could have been made a figure head commander and I would love if she became playable around that point, but like I said, the failing of Elincia's writing shouldn't reflect badly on Ike. Nothing about improving Elincia's character requires anything of Ike's to be significantly changed).

Roran is also a pretty terrible point of comparison since he gets showered with gifts and respect purely from being the protagonist's cousin and really overblows the whole earning one's position by being a genius tactical commander and warrior able to kill hundreds of men with no training or background experience. He isn't the chosen one but he is ridiculously amazing for absolutely no reason.

(and I feel I should specify this critique of your critique isn't motivated by blind fanlove. Path of Radiance is one of my lower ranked games in both story and gameplay).

Edited June 7, 2017 by Jotari

[ping]

It's a fact my personal opinion that music without 9ths, major 7ths, and tritones is bland and boring, and that final chords don't necessarily have to be harmonic. So, uh, I take offense to the "painfully disgusting noise" line. :D

That aside, it's an interesting read, but in my impression you tend to interprete the events in PoR in the most negative way. Starting with Ragnell being locked to Ike - is the "Chosen One" really the only way to read this? Darth Vader gave it to Obi-Wan because he wanted a fair fight, Obi-Wan physically couldn't wield it because he had crippled himself, and Ike just picked it up. FE does have a tradition of weapons chosing their wielder (FE7 in particular), but unless I misremember things, there's nothing in PoR or RD indicating that Ike didn't just call dibs on Ragnell.

I do agree with the observation that Ike's journey isn't all that different from your average FE lord - home country gets attacked, the lord travels the world to gather support and ultimately beats the evil king and frees his country (big evil dragon optional). And while I think that Ike wielding Ragnell doesn't make him "special", I don't approve of Ashnard being mostly a duel boss as well. He's not Ike's personal nemesis, so there's little reason in the story for this, and I suspect that IS just couldn't think of a better way to make him challenging. And finally, I agree that Ike immediately inheriting command of Greil's Mercs seems rather unlikely, especially since he's been in the business for like a week or two before Greil dies.

Still - not every scene in PoR unfolds the way they do just because Ike is treated as if he was a noble. The GM find Elincia by coincident, and they become her guardians simply because there is no alternative at that point (Daein even blocks the Betrayal option). Cain cannot support Elincia directly because frictions between Beorc and Laguz are still very much present, so he chooses to help her find help in Begnion. And since Ike and the mercs are the only non-Gallians available... And in Begnion, Ike is choosen to lead the liberators because at that point, he has proven himself to be able to do it, and because Sanaki wants Crimea to (at least formally) free itself instead of Begnion being an aggressor. Yes, it wouldn't have hurt if Elincia had taken a more active role in PoR in general, but to be fair - she wasn't even supposed to be the crown princess, so it makes sense that she wasn't prepared to lead an army. She's definitely not as obvious a choice as the military leader as you suggest.

Of course, Ike is not an average dude, but that's the old question about the causality: Is Ike special because he's the protagonist, or is he the protagonist because he has unusual abilities? Not every story can be told with the assistant accountant of a minor enterprise as the main character (yes, I exaggerate), simply because many stories would be either boring or very short. Ike is supposed to be a hugely talented fighter (unlike most other FE lords, being strong is kinda his thing) and likeable despite (?) his lack of etiquette. That and, well, coincidence and political calculation on Begnion's part brought him into his position, not some kind of holy or noble bloodline or ancient prophecy (again, exaggeration ;) ).

[a bear]

I get that people are annoyed by how nothing Ike does carries any negative consequences, that's a legitimate complaint. But consistently good fortune isn't the same as being a chosen hero. There's no prophecy, no brand, no holy blood. None of his allies are obligated to follow him, Ragnell doesn't choose him, and nothing he does aside from the Ashera killshot couldn't have been done by anyone else (and even that probably could be done by anyone if Yune wasn't so picky).

I'll probably respond to each bit individually later when I'm not posting from my phone.

[Augestein]

The issue with Ike is that there's a lot of writer's favoritism going on with him. To the point that it overwhelms any form of base logic that's applied to the games. So what ends up happening is that it appears to be a "chosen one" scenario so to speak, but it's literally just a standard "Hero's Journey" with some lousy writing going on around it. 

6 hours ago, ping said:

Still - not every scene in PoR unfolds the way they do just because Ike is treated as if he was a noble. The GM find Elincia by coincident, and they become her guardians simply because there is no alternative at that point (Daein even blocks the Betrayal option). Cain cannot support Elincia directly because frictions between Beorc and Laguz are still very much present, so he chooses to help her find help in Begnion. And since Ike and the mercs are the only non-Gallians available... And in Begnion, Ike is choosen to lead the liberators because at that point, he has proven himself to be able to do it, and because Sanaki wants Crimea to (at least formally) free itself instead of Begnion being an aggressor. Yes, it wouldn't have hurt if Elincia had taken a more active role in PoR in general, but to be fair - she wasn't even supposed to be the crown princess, so it makes sense that she wasn't prepared to lead an army. She's definitely not as obvious a choice as the military leader as you suggest.

 

This is true, but I'd argue that things like Daein not giving an option to the mercs is just out and out bad writing. The objective is to capture/kill Elincia. What reason do they have to even bother to fight these people? All they had to do was pay them a bit of gold coin in exchange for Elincia. Even if we find out later that the whole point was to try to get the entire continent in a war, it's still bad writing here, because that means that these people were sent with the notion of losing which makes even less sense than my first presentation. I wouldn't have minded the GMs deciding to honor Elincia over Daein, but here, it's just done really poorly. 

And the issue with Elincia is that she mentions that she's no "ordinary princess," knowing things like how to pack clothes (faster and more efficiently than Mist I might add), cook, sew, and even a bit of swordplay. If anything, I'd say that her raising here would have made her more likely to have learned some military tactics and had some training. If we look at her base stats for instance (which I'll admit is kinda strange, but for the sake of argument hear me out), they are much better than Ike, which implies that she has more training than Ike himself. And if her stats aren't enough, how about the fact that she has her own personal weapon and knows how to fight on a mount? You don't just decide that you're going to fight on a horse one day (sorry Mist). 

One of the biggest issues I hear is that people say "Ike earned it," when before Greil dies, Ike demonstrates more instances where he is a terrible choice for the leader. He's not very cultured and doesn't know much about the surrounding areas, he's not a good tactician, he's horrible diplomatically, he doesn't listen-- which is hilarious because this is actually what leads to Greil's death, and he's the most inexperienced of his group aside from Mist and Rolf-- both of which don't actually fight initially, and he makes snap judgments about things without context-- ie, "I hate nobles," when the first actual nobles he met and had a conversation with were Elincia and Cain. Ike spends more time being stupid and the game just kind of shrugs at all of Ike's stupidity and says it's "refreshing." The only growth that Ike shows isn't even really through character, but rather... Achievements, which doesn't really say much about his growth as a character. All of his goals and desires are outlets of physical achievements. Defeating the Black Knight may avenge his father or whatever, but it really doesn't show much growth. The best growth we see from Ike is when he actually ignores the Black Knight when going to rescue Geoffrey-- but even that is a rather misnomer statement because his client told him that he should rescue her knights, so it wasn't even his decision to argue truly decide "hey, now isn't a good time to avoid confronting him." Heck, you can even choose to not deliver a speech at the end, and the characters all yuck it up about how "Ike never changes." Now I'll grant you that this is a player choice variant, but it's still one of those things that really sums up Ike "it's just Ike being Ike." And he's boring, like Mist says.

I thoroughly agree with OP when they say that if this were a 3DS era and Ike was an avatar, people would have criticized this plot a lot more instead of putting it on the pedestal they do now. Even something like Alm from Echoes makes more sense to be made the leader in that instance. He's a common man, and chosen as a bit of a figurehead. The game even says as such. 

 

What saves PoR for me is the lore and the setup. Not anything surrounding Ike's character. I think it's bad. 

[Katie]

Elinicia should have been the lord in PoR tbh.

[Interdimensional Observer]

13 hours ago, Elincia said:

What makes this sequence follow the ‘chosen one’ stereotypes so horridly falls in two major areas. First, and the easy one to blame, the Black Knight’s armor and Ragnell. Magical armor that can only get pierced by divine weaponry stinks of chosen oneness. And of course, later in the game Ike remains the only character allowed to wield that weapon for literally no explained reason, other than for plot convenience. Just like any other ‘chosen one’ hero, they always have some special weapon or ability that only they can use. Fire Emblem employs this frequently in the form of divine weapons, most notably, the Falchion which literally stops being sharp (awakening), or the Royal Sword (SoV/Gaiden), which is too heavy for anyone else to use. In regards to divine weaponry, Sacred Stones stands out as the most generous and free for allowing its characters to use sacred weapons. As the only ones locked to specific characters are our famously memed incest twins. The simple existence of this blessed armor and weaponry defeats the entire purpose of making Ike a common mercenary, unless the point was to make him be this special chosen one destined to save the universe.

You're being a little too harsh here on Ike. Anyone could use Ragnell yes, but because it relates to his father's murder, something he keeps everyone in the dark about for most of the game, Ike understandably shows it to no one and thus nobody else gets to use it. Ike's duel with the BK is personal, so it's understandable he'd fight the BK alone (with the exception of Mist), so really the armor blessing here is meaningless. There should be nothing stopping anyone from using the Ragnell for the remaining two fights (and the entirety of RD)- so you have grounds for criticism here, particularly when anyone can use the Alondite in RD. Surprised you forgot to mention Ashnard- who should've been damageable by anyone (they could have come up with another way of making a moving final boss not an easy victim to being ganged up on- but they took the dreadfully easy way out).

13 hours ago, Elincia said:

Once Ike finally arrives in Begnion, he and Elincia are later given an audience with Empress Sanaki (another heroin earning her position from birthright.) Which first is a bit odd given that Elincia is the person of interest, not Ike.

Well to be fair, Elincia only got to Begnion ultimately because of the GMs, it'd make sense that he'd be present as to see what kind of people were supporting her.

As for Elincia not being named commander of her army- a no experience princess who relies on others for running her army isn't the best of ideas, though the difference between Elincia leading her army with Ike as the real commander, and Ike being named the commander outright, though nominal, might have been better since Begnionites used to blueblood leaders would have been a bit more amenable to Crimea's cause.

 

I will agree to Ike being let off too easy after his tantrum in Begnion, and that the Goldoa scene was a little too perfect (though the point to it is bad luck with Raven Laguz, good luck with the Dragon Laguz- not showing diplomacy- though it could have done both). And I'm in complete agreement we need FE lords who screw up more and have to learn from their mistakes. While this does not excuse the issues with Ike's portrayal, it is worth considering that even in the earliest of development days when the world of Tellius looked radically different, Ike was the lodestar of FE9, while Crimea and Elincia were a later addition.

[Elincia]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't really see how Sacred Stones is any better than Path of Radiance in terms of its exclusive legendary weapons.

I think your conflating the chosen one trope(s) with characters generally being the protagonist. And while I do agree that Elincia could have stood to have more presence in the story, I don't think the writers failure to do that should reflect badly on Ike. He was chosen to lead the army because he had proven himself capable of command. Not just in getting Elincia to Begnion but in doing those missions for Sanaki. They weren't just filler, it was Ike proving himself to her. Furthermore it's a plot point that Begnion is not leading the charge, they're covering the rear of the Crimean invasion force which is made up primarily of the units Ike has already been commanding from the very start. It wouldn't make sense for Elincia to start commanding them there since she has no military experience and Ike has been the one commanding them the entire time with stellar results (now she definitely could have been made a figure head commander and I would love if she became playable around that point, but like I said, the failing of Elincia's writing shouldn't reflect badly on Ike. Nothing about improving Elincia's character requires anything of Ike's to be significantly changed).

Roran is also a pretty terrible point of comparison since he gets showered with gifts and respect purely from being the protagonist's cousin and really overblows the whole earning one's position by being a genius tactical commander and warrior able to kill hundreds of men with no training or background experience. He isn't the chosen one but he is ridiculously amazing for absolutely no reason.

(and I feel I should specify this critique of your critique isn't motivated by blind fanlove. Path of Radiance is one of my lower ranked games in both story and gameplay).

The point about the SS legendary weapons was that anyone could wield them, unlike Ragnell

And, yeah, you may have a point, we may have been too harsh on Ike for that, but Elincia should have had far more involvement in the story than what she got. I mean hell it would have been really cool just to see something from her point of few in PoR as well.

That is kinda fair, however do also remember that just because you have good connections doesn't stop you from being a self made man. He didn't have Eragon's help when he first convinced his entire village to pack up and leave to a rebellion. His wards were a finite resource he had to manage, and the only weapon he used was a blacksmith's hammer.

[Elincia]

16 hours ago, Luchi said:

Well, this certainly was interesting. There goes Ike's supposed uniqueness for being the only non-noble Lord in the series. I myself wrote an article as to why he's my least favourite Lord/character in FE, and this article pretty much covered most of it pretty nicely. Though because it was more of a rant/essay, I've never posted it here for... reasons.

There's admittedly a bit of ranting on me and my boyfriend's part (we both wrote it together). Neither of us are big fans of Ike, and we're both huge fans of Elincia, and there's admittedly a bit of bias for her in here as well. 

But anyway, glad you liked.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Elincia

[vanguard333]

Of course I will have a bit of bias, since Path of Radiance is my favourite FE game, but I will do my best to overcome it. Also, I will largely ignore the parts for which others have already brought up counterarguments:

I understand the issue of Ike seemingly brought up to mercenary leader almost instantly. That being said, there are a few good reasons within the plot as to why Ike was given the job. One of them is that it is well established that everyone knew Ike would inherit the position; however no one knew it would be so soon. In fact, Soren says, “We all knew that Ike was going to inherit command of the company, didn’t we? It just happened sooner than we wanted. It was Greil’s decision." This leads into the second reason, which that it was, or at least the other members of the group felt it was, what Greil would have wanted. The third reason is: who else? The obvious answer would seem to be Titania, but, while it probably could've been explained better, it is implied if not outright stated that she never would have wanted to be in charge. In fact, Boyd says, "Titania told us you were going to be the new commander. Shinon just about exploded…He and Gatrie left not long ago." This sentence is the first confirmation that Ike has been placed in charge after the death of Greil, and it says that Titania told everyone Ike was in charge, implying that Titania saw Ike as the next leader without a second thought, and, in my opinion, it makes sense: she's a second-in-command and an advisor. And I think it is obvious that none of the other options would either want the job or even be considered, and for good reason.

As for the scene in Goldoa, that one is blind luck. It would not have mattered who set foot on Goldoa; because it was purely out of blind luck, the event would have happened to anyone who stepped out of the ship. The difference is; Ike was the only one reckless and unwitting enough to step outside; not realizing it was Goldoan territory. As Mist puts it, "We got lucky! For once, your recklessness actually got us OUT of trouble!"

As for the meeting with Sanaki, yes, Elincia is the person of interest, which is the reason why, between Elincia and Ike; Elincia's the one doing the negotiating. In fact, the only thing Ike does, apart from his temper tantrum, is vouch for her (which is ignored partly because he's a commoner and partly because Sanaki already has confirmation and is messing with them). As for why Ike was there in the first place, the most obvious possibility is that Elincia simply wanted someone she trusted at her side while she spoke with the Empress, and she trusts Ike. Also, going back to his temper tantrum, all the nobles in the room apart from Sanaki and Elincia were furious at Ike and wanted him hung, drawn and quartered. Sanaki spared him partly out of mercy and partly because she had already seen his lack of etiquette back on the ships.

[Augestein]

42 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Of course I will have a bit of bias, since Path of Radiance is my favourite FE game, but I will do my best to overcome it. Also, I will largely ignore the parts for which others have already brought up counterarguments:

I understand the issue of Ike seemingly brought up to mercenary leader almost instantly. That being said, there are a few good reasons within the plot as to why Ike was given the job. One of them is that it is well established that everyone knew Ike would inherit the position; however no one knew it would be so soon. In fact, Soren says, “We all knew that Ike was going to inherit command of the company, didn’t we? It just happened sooner than we wanted. It was Greil’s decision." This leads into the second reason, which that it was, or at least the other members of the group felt it was, what Greil would have wanted. The third reason is: who else? The obvious answer would seem to be Titania, but, while it probably could've been explained better, it is implied if not outright stated that she never would have wanted to be in charge. In fact, Boyd says, "Titania told us you were going to be the new commander. Shinon just about exploded…He and Gatrie left not long ago." This sentence is the first confirmation that Ike has been placed in charge after the death of Greil, and it says that Titania told everyone Ike was in charge, implying that Titania saw Ike as the next leader without a second thought, and, in my opinion, it makes sense: she's a second-in-command and an advisor. And I think it is obvious that none of the other options would either want the job or even be considered, and for good reason.

As for the scene in Goldoa, that one is blind luck. It would not have mattered who set foot on Goldoa; because it was purely out of blind luck, the event would have happened to anyone who stepped out of the ship. The difference is; Ike was the only one reckless and unwitting enough to step outside; not realizing it was Goldoan territory. As Mist puts it, "We got lucky! For once, your recklessness actually got us OUT of trouble!"

As for the meeting with Sanaki, yes, Elincia is the person of interest, which is the reason why, between Elincia and Ike; Elincia's the one doing the negotiating. In fact, the only thing Ike does, apart from his temper tantrum, is vouch for her (which is ignored partly because he's a commoner and partly because Sanaki already has confirmation and is messing with them). As for why Ike was there in the first place, the most obvious possibility is that Elincia simply wanted someone she trusted at her side while she spoke with the Empress, and she trusts Ike. Also, going back to his temper tantrum, all the nobles in the room apart from Sanaki and Elincia were furious at Ike and wanted him hung, drawn and quartered. Sanaki spared him partly out of mercy and partly because she had already seen his lack of etiquette back on the ships.

Yes, and the matter of "how soon" is a very pressing point. A person that owns a company would probably plan to give the company to their children eventually some day. What they don't plan to do is give the company to them when the person is inexperience and has had little to no experience leading. And more pressingly, it's difficult to believe that people would be willing to put their lives at risk with someone that is that inexperienced. Realistically, you'd think everyone would be uncomfortable with someone becoming the leader when just two days ago, everyone else on the team had a better idea of how things work. This is really pushing the sense of belief already. But what makes it more laughable is that every talks about Shinon with scorn for having a sane reaction to this.  

Which is hard to believe on the account that no one ever seems to have the luck of Ike in this game. And more pressingly, the "your recklessness actually got us OUT of trouble" is the issue. Because the game rewards someone for having not a lick of geographical sense and not understanding customs of other areas. And more importantly than that, it's a demonstration of what's wrong with things. It's not just the fact that he got off the ship and was lucky. It's the fact that he runs into a place that's essentially kill on sight and he's not killed because he runs into a prince that just so happens to be taking a stroll that just so happens to not feel like following the direct orders of the king. But that's not enough, these same people then turn around and resupply them as well as help them off of the rocks as well. This also ignores the fact that any time Ike did something, it always worked out in his favor-- or there were no consequences for him-- the closest thing we get for that is he indirectly gets Greil killed for his behavior, and there's absolutely no reflection on Ike for this and all it does is get him a promotion. 

And that's very difficult to swallow. She just gives Ike a pass because she knows he's a jerk? That sounds like more reason to punish him and Elincia at that point more than anything else. And it doesn't do any good for characters to be furious if nothing happens. Every time something happens for Ike, they say "Oh this could have happened, you're ... lucky." An Empress, the physical representation of the face of the country,  is reprimanded by a commoner in a rather condescending tone and disrespected in front of all of her peers and underlings. Insulting her is akin to insulting the entirety of the country. What's her response? Nothing. 

Yeah, I don't buy that. 

 

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Elincia said:

The point about the SS legendary weapons was that anyone could wield them, unlike Ragnell

And, yeah, you may have a point, we may have been too harsh on Ike for that, but Elincia should have had far more involvement in the story than what she got. I mean hell it would have been really cool just to see something from her point of few in PoR as well.

That is kinda fair, however do also remember that just because you have good connections doesn't stop you from being a self made man. He didn't have Eragon's help when he first convinced his entire village to pack up and leave to a rebellion. His wards were a finite resource he had to manage, and the only weapon he used was a blacksmith's hammer.

Except the legendary weapons for the lords themselves. They were exclusive to Eirika and Ephraim. While Ragnell is not exclusive to Ike. In theory anyone can use it. The game just locks it to Ike so he can't trade it away to get the same effect. Might not seem like a significant difference but thematically it is important. Ike is using a special weapon because he is the protagonist, not because he's inherently special.

Of course that doesn't excuse the fact that he was hoarding it all game and refusing to let anyone else touch it even though he wasn't using it himself.

[Vaximillian]

19 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

a no experience princess who relies on others for running her army isn't the best of ideas

What’s the difference between a no-experience princess who relies on others for running her army and a no-experience swordsman who relies on others for running his army?

Ike only knows how to fight, how to piss off people, and how to wear plot armour.

[Jotari]

50 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

What’s the difference between a no-experience princess who relies on others for running her army and a no-experience swordsman who relies on others for running his army?

Ike only knows how to fight, how to piss off people, and how to wear plot armour.

Presumably Ike is also very competent at telling others how to fight effectively since he is winning these battles. Unless of course you have a shit tactics rank and are getting everyone killed.

[Vaximillian]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Presumably Ike is also very competent at telling others how to fight effectively since he is winning these battles. Unless of course you have a shit tactics rank and are getting everyone killed.

Presumably it’s Titania and Soren who are competent at telling others how to fight effectively. Ike is competent at swinging a pointy metal stick.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Vaximillian said:

Presumably it’s Titania and Soren who are competent at telling others how to fight effectively. Ike is competent at swinging a pointy metal stick.

Why do you presume that? Soren performs the broad strategies that the army uses i.e., what maps they go to. Titania is the advisor giving Ike advice which isn't even necessarily on the battlefield. Ike is the one telling people where to go and what to do during the actual gameplay. I think Path of Radiant and Radiant Dawn even go one step further and make it so the Direct and Order commands are accessed by selecting Ike's unit himself (though don't quote me on that, I feel I could be wrong).

[bethany81707]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Why do you presume that? Soren performs the broad strategies that the army uses i.e., what maps they go to. Titania is the advisor giving Ike advice which isn't even necessarily on the battlefield. Ike is the one telling people where to go and what to do during the actual gameplay. I think Path of Radiant and Radiant Dawn even go one step further and make it so the Direct and Order commands are accessed by selecting Ike's unit himself (though don't quote me on that, I feel I could be wrong).

It's the same company that produced a guy that forgets what airports are and calls him a competent commander- and he kinda is!

(Also, you are correct in that Direct and Order are accessed via Ike when he is the Lord).

[vanguard333]

20 hours ago, Augestein said:

Yes, and the matter of "how soon" is a very pressing point. A person that owns a company would probably plan to give the company to their children eventually some day. What they don't plan to do is give the company to them when the person is inexperience and has had little to no experience leading. And more pressingly, it's difficult to believe that people would be willing to put their lives at risk with someone that is that inexperienced. Realistically, you'd think everyone would be uncomfortable with someone becoming the leader when just two days ago, everyone else on the team had a better idea of how things work. This is really pushing the sense of belief already. But what makes it more laughable is that every talks about Shinon with scorn for having a sane reaction to this.  

Which is hard to believe on the account that no one ever seems to have the luck of Ike in this game. And more pressingly, the "your recklessness actually got us OUT of trouble" is the issue. Because the game rewards someone for having not a lick of geographical sense and not understanding customs of other areas. And more importantly than that, it's a demonstration of what's wrong with things. It's not just the fact that he got off the ship and was lucky. It's the fact that he runs into a place that's essentially kill on sight and he's not killed because he runs into a prince that just so happens to be taking a stroll that just so happens to not feel like following the direct orders of the king. But that's not enough, these same people then turn around and resupply them as well as help them off of the rocks as well. This also ignores the fact that any time Ike did something, it always worked out in his favor-- or there were no consequences for him-- the closest thing we get for that is he indirectly gets Greil killed for his behavior, and there's absolutely no reflection on Ike for this and all it does is get him a promotion. 

And that's very difficult to swallow. She just gives Ike a pass because she knows he's a jerk? That sounds like more reason to punish him and Elincia at that point more than anything else. And it doesn't do any good for characters to be furious if nothing happens. Every time something happens for Ike, they say "Oh this could have happened, you're ... lucky." An Empress, the physical representation of the face of the country,  is reprimanded by a commoner in a rather condescending tone and disrespected in front of all of her peers and underlings. Insulting her is akin to insulting the entirety of the country. What's her response? Nothing. 

Yeah, I don't buy that. 

Except, at the point he becomes mercenary leader, he has already led the entire group (apart from Greil) in chapters 4 and 5, and led all but Shinon, Gatrie, and Greil in chapters 6 and 7. Yes he still has a lot to learn by that point, but he has proven himself at taking charge on the battlefield. Also, as I already pointed out, who else was there? Titania didn't want the job, and everyone else in the group would have been worse as the leader.

At the part where Mist says, "your recklessness actually got us OUT of trouble," it's worth noting that she opened the statement with, "For once". There were several instances beforehand where Ike's recklessness got the group into trouble: Ike was the first to run off in chapter 2 to try to rescue Mist and got half the group cornered before Titania showed up with Shinon and Gatrie (and Ike, Boyd, Oscar and Rhys were all punished for disobeying a direct order), him defending Ranulf in chapter 11 (when everyone told him not to) led the villagers to realize they were the mercenary group while Daein was taking over the village, etc. Goldoa was one case of sheer blind luck that could have happened to anyone who left the ship.

Sanaki gives Ike a pass because she is a kind-hearted individual (unlike the senators). Her response isn't nothing; her response is, "Now then, Ike. I fully understand your feelings. Your passion for your employer is truly a beautiful thing. Would that my own fawning vassals shared your commitment. However, truth be told, your behavior does test my patience. Raise your voice once more to me, and you will seriously damage the princess's already precarious position. Do you understand?" Her response is that this time he will be left off with a warning to think before he speaks, and she acknowledges that his outburst really tested her patience.

Edited June 8, 2017 by vanguard333

[Koumal8]

On 7/6/2017 at 8:52 AM, Jotari said:

I think your conflating the chosen one trope(s) with characters generally being the protagonist.

This is the core of the problem with your essay/rant. Yes, Ike is a bit of a chosen one and a definitely too lucky at times. No, it does not mean he's a bad character and many of the things you write are... misguided, if that makes sense.

22 hours ago, Augestein said:

If we look at her base stats for instance (which I'll admit is kinda strange, but for the sake of argument hear me out), they are much better than Ike, which implies that she has more training than Ike himself.

As fun as it may be, speculating on gameplay elements does not seem advisable to me. Dodrio can learn Fly: would you confidently declare that all Dodrios have an invisible pair of wings that they keep hidden from human eyes? No, they do not and they CANNOT fly, regardless of their ability to learn Fly. Elincia could have never been trained better of for longer than the destined-to-become-head-of-a-mercenary-band son of frigging Greil.

22 hours ago, Augestein said:

You don't just decide that you're going to fight on a horse one day (sorry Mist). 

Yes you do. In Fire Emblem you do, apparently. See the Villagers for confirmation. Slant-eyed arrow-twangers in Fates are even capable of starting to ride... huge... hawks?... and even of shooting arrows from the back of frigging flying mounts all out of the blue.

22 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Once Ike finally arrives in Begnion, he and Elincia are later given an audience with Empress Sanaki (another heroin earning her position from birthright.) Which first is a bit odd given that Elincia is the person of interest, not Ike.

Ike is the head of Elincia's guard. A guard that leaves their employer alone in the main hall of the imperial palace of a foreign and possibly hostile country is a really bad guard.

[Augestein]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Except, at the point he becomes mercenary leader, he has already led part of the team in chapter 2, led the entire group (apart from Greil) in chapters 4 and 5, and led all but Shinon, Gatrie, and Greil in chapters 6 and 7. Yes he still has a lot to learn by that point, but he has proven himself at taking charge on the battlefield. Also, as I already pointed out, who else was there? Titania didn't want the job, and everyone else in the group would have been worse as the leader.

At the part where Mist says, "your recklessness actually got us OUT of trouble," it's worth noting that she opened the statement with, "For once". There were several instances beforehand where Ike's recklessness got the group into trouble: Ike was the first to run off in chapter 2 to try to rescue Mist and got half the group cornered before Titania showed up with Shinon and Gatrie (and Ike, Boyd, Oscar and Rhys were all punished for disobeying a direct order), him defending Ranulf in chapter 11 (when everyone told him not to) led the villagers to realize they were the mercenary group while Daein was taking over the village, etc. Goldoa was one case of sheer blind luck that could have happened to anyone who left the ship.

Sanaki gives Ike a pass because she is a kind-hearted individual (unlike the senators). Her response isn't nothing; her response is, "Now then, Ike. I fully understand your feelings. Your passion for your employer is truly a beautiful thing. Would that my own fawning vassals shared your commitment. However, truth be told, your behavior does test my patience. Raise your voice once more to me, and you will seriously damage the princess's already precarious position. Do you understand?" Her response is that this time he will be left off with a warning to think before he speaks, and she acknowledges that his outburst really tested her patience.

No he didn't. And Chapter 2 is an example of being a bad leader if he did. He could have gotten Mist and Rolf killed in his scenario. If it weren't for Titania getting Shinon, both of those children would be dead. So that's an example of him not being ready. Chapter 4, he literally let's Ike lead as a way to gain experience. You know, because he's not experienced? He tells Titania to instruct Ike on how to instruct. It's not the same thing as saying "Ike you're ready to lead." Chapter 5 he does put Ike in charge, but that still doesn't mean that he's ready to lead. Chapter 6 and 7 is another example of being bad-- once again, Ike does what he does best and doesn't listen to people, and falls into a trap as a result. So half of the time Ike does stupid stuff and puts people's lives in danger. I'd say he's pretty bad. Especially when the mistakes made are easily avoidable. Titania doesn't say she doesn't want the job. She just says "oh Ike's going to be it." And everyone just shrugs and says "okay" except the sane people of the group. Oscar could have done this, and there's no reason that Elincia can't do it either... Instruct her mercenaries on what to do. It's just an excuse to have Elincia be useless and do nothing. 

Obviously. The thing is, Ike, Oscar, Boyd and Rhys are not punished. Their punishment is immediately deferred and Greil dies later on. Punishment averted. And everything works out fine despite doing what he shouldn't have done. So it's still not enough for me. Because Ike is constantly doing stupid stuff throughout the game, and most of the bad things that happen are because Ike doesn't listen or just does what he feels like and the game basically ensures that nothing bad happens to Ike. Bringing up things like Chapter 11 work in my favor to be honest. The only time something bad happens from his lack of listening is the fact that the BK finds out about them and ... Kills Greil. And Ike doesn't even reflect on this. 

Which is nothing. She literally does nothing. Saying "you try my patience" isn't actually doing anything. Especially because he tried her patience earlier on the boat with his ignorance towards her position. Saying "you try my patience" is literally like going "grr...." at them. 

 

36 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

As fun as it may be, speculating on gameplay elements does not seem advisable to me. Dodrio can learn Fly: would you confidently declare that all Dodrios have an invisible pair of wings that they keep hidden from human eyes? No, they do not and they CANNOT fly, regardless of their ability to learn Fly. Elincia could have never been trained better of for longer than the destined-to-become-head-of-a-mercenary-band son of frigging Greil.

Maybe he's like Pegasus and flies with his legs instead? I mean this is a game where bellsprout can learn Flash, Charizard in Gen 1 couldn't learn Fly (seriously WTF is that nonsense?). And yeah, she could have been trained longer than Ike. There's nothing that indicates otherwise. She says she learned swordplay, she says she learned talents that princesses normally don't and that she didn't grow up like one. And in RD, she's competent enough to pretend to be a knight. I'd say... Yes, she most definitely could have been. 

 

39 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

Yes you do. In Fire Emblem you do, apparently. See the Villagers for confirmation. Slant-eyed arrow-twangers in Fates are even capable of starting to ride... huge... hawks?... and even of shooting arrows from the back of frigging flying mounts all out of the blue.

Getting a mount isn't the same thing. Mozu is a villager, the likelihood of her *not* knowing how to ride an animal is pretty low. That's why they gave her archery and lances unpromoted, because lances are the closest thing to a pitchfork (as Awakening liked to say), and she mentions hunting in some of her supports. So she has skills that make sense. Master of Arms is about the only thing that doesn't make sense for her, but considering that quite a few of her supports mention that she wants to train to not be useless... This makes sense. 

[Paper Jam]

Giving Ike a warning is more than nothing.

Particularly since Ike took the warning seriously enough to do as Sanaki commanded.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Paper Jam

[Augestein]

44 minutes ago, Paper Jam said:

Giving Ike a warning is more than nothing.

Particularly since Ike took the warning seriously enough to do as Sanaki commanded.

He pisses the senators off, and Sanaki covers for him. He then has an outburst, and Sanaki just says "don't do it again."  Sanaki dismissed him. He left. And the next scene, Ike doesn't even realize diddly and squat until Titania explains to him. So yes, I'd say there were 0 consequences for this.

I'd say those are no consequences. Considering that this sort of typical behavior would result in instant death? Yeah. It is.