Ike's Dissonance

[ping]

Sorry, but that's a very resentful (I hope that word is more or less correct) way to read that scene. Ike makes a mistake in that scene and the game actually acknowleges it - Sanaki directly tells him that he's hurting Elincia's position, and afterwards he is told that he almost talked himself to death there. But it would be utterly OOC for Sanaki to actually condemn Ike to death in that scene - she is shown to be a bit childish, but very moral throughout PoR and the discussed scene is very much consistent with her apology to Reyson and Leanne later in the game where she shows once more that she doesn't agree with the exaltated status of the Empress when she bends her knee to them. [btw- I wonder if the writers had known about the Warschauer Kniefall. If so, I'm quite impressed with the scene]

I do agree with some of your points, Augestein, particularly about how frigging inexperienced Ike is when he's named commander, but in this case I feel like you're reaching to make Ike seem favoured in that scene. Same with the delayed/averted punishment when he rushes to Mist's and Rolf's aid - yes, he avoids grounding, but that's because his father was fucking murdered before his very eyes. That's really not showing what a lucky guy Ike happens to be.

[Shoblongoo]

Think its fine, tbh. 

In the Laguz tradition of authority isn't a thing to be born into. It is a thing to be earned by those who demonstrate that they are the strongest, Ike is without contradiction in being this mercenary of common birth who resents the actions and attitudes of aristocracy AND himself being a leader among men, who for all-intents-and-purposes commands the respect and the standing of a Lord.  

Ike very much follows the Tibarn ethic of Can you can beat the ever-living shit out of me. No? Right then--fuck off, with your phony sense of power and entitlement before I smack it out of you. I have authority--fight me if you want to know the reason why. 

...not so much a thing of dissonance in the sense presented by the OP...

But rather--and I've said this about Ike before, I find it to be one of the more interesting aspects of his character--that Ike, a beorc, is more closely aligned with the ethics and attitudes of the laguz. And frequently appears to be more comfortable around them, more embracing of their ideas and social norms, and more sympathetic to their plight then when dealing with his fellow beorc, who he more often regards with distaste and suspicion. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[bethany81707]

3 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Can you can beat the ever-living shit out of me. No? Right then--fuck off, with your phony sense of power and entitlement before I smack it out of you. I have authority--fight me if you want to know the reason why. 

You know, this probably also explains why most people think of Ike as a really good unit, and can't imagine him lacking- it's tied to his narrative character.

[fangpoint333]

Ike inheriting the command of the group isn't anything to blink an eye at. He was personally trained by his dad and Titania would be loyal enough to Greil to trust in his decision to have him be next in line. He doesn't hate being in power but rather he hates being bogged down by formalities and red tape which doesn't really come with being a leader of a band of mercs.

The Ragnell thing isn't that odd either. He was the only one around to watch the duel and collect the sword after the fight ended. He held onto it because it could have been a clue that he wouldn't risk losing. Black Knight gave the sword to Greil because it was the only weapon to allow him to beat him in a duel. Sephiran gave him the armor because the BK was his right hand man and was helping orchestrate everything and needed that armor to stay intact to not risk him dying or getting exposed. BK giving another suit of blessed armor to Ashnard though was just a cheap railroading to have the MC beat the big bad though.

The Goldoa thing was noted to just be dumb luck. Kurth wasn't really OOC because he's constantly shown to dislike the isolationist policy of Goldoa and isn't as black and white as his father. Gareth doesn't care because he knows he's a minor character who's only there to help add another red dragon to the roster in the next game. If anything that entire episode was more to introduce Kurth and what he's like for when he shows up in RD and show how powerful the dragons are rather than to shill Ike.

Sanaki doesn't kill Ike because she's not as as big of a jerk as she lets on. He also saved her in the earlier boat chapter when they met and she needed him to expose the laguz slavery because she needed a capable group that he no prior relationship with the other senators. Elincia isn't really a good choice to be general. A lot of people were still skeptical at the time that the king even had a daughter she doesn't have any real combat experience either. I'm sure them winning was more priority than Elinica getting her act together. Also Ike had helped restore Serenes by saving Leanne which was a big deal since a lot of Begnion citizens were feeling guilty about it.

Obviously it's not a complete zero to hero story. There were a lot of conditions that were set up to make him a central figure. His role isn't a role that anyone can fill. He had to have a father who was the strongest on the continent who had to run away with his wife with the medallion who was also capable of suppressing the medallion to eventually get hunted down by the BK who was a double agent that had a personal beef with Greil and worked one of the legendary heroes who was trying to destroy the world. Also he had to meet with the Princess before Daein captured her and get tasked to help her get restored to power. It's more of a story about how an ordinary person grew when facing extraordinary circumstances. At the same time though those extraordinary circumstances need to be necessary. If he was just an ordinary merc, he'd be completely sidelined to game's plot and would just be as important to the overall story as Mia, or Zihark or any other merc in this series. Yeah it's not a complete zero to hero plot or chosen one plot but it doesn't need to be. Not every story needs to follow the same archetypes.

 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Seriously speaking this post goes into details about it, but i've never been able to take any comment about how Ike is a relatable commoner, ordinary lord seriously. He basically stole his plotline from Leif, but Leif manage to be convincingly pulls off a commoner-stance while being a prince. Ike failed to do the same while being a mercenary. The game goes out of their way to mock the idea that Leif is supposed to be special. Its not until the game's own Gottoh have a personal talk with Leif that Leif is potrayed as a messianic figure. Before that, he's just a mercenary of a backwater village of a poor countryside that can't even have a farm

A funny contrast in particular is when Leif get Ragnel, so that he can finally settle the score with the Black Knight for killing his parent

In FE5, the game specifically made sure to mention that while Leif can wield it himself, he's not special for it. His sister can wield it. His sister's brother can wield it. Even a random guy he met on a fucking prison can wield it.

 

[Moblin Major General]

6 hours ago, JSND said:

A funny contrast in particular is when Leif get Ragnel, so that he can finally settle the score with the Black Knight for killing his parent

In FE5, the game specifically made sure to mention that while Leif can wield it himself, he's not special for it. His sister can wield it. His sister's brother can wield it. Even a random guy he met on a fucking prison can wield it.

Since when did Raydrik kill Ethlyn and Cuan? Also, all of the people who can wield the Blaggi Sword are descendants of sword Crusaders (Baldur for Leif, Hezul for Fergus, Diarmid, and Nanna.). Any character who has the blood of either of those two are prominent characters in both games (Seliph, Sigurd, Ethlyn, Altenna, Leif, Elidgan, Beowulf, Ares, Diarmud, and Nanna.)

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Hezul for Fergus

We're not sure about what Fergus's holy blood is. And...

Cyas:
“Yes, Lord Sety asked me to give it to you. This is a holy sword only usable by those of the Holy Warriors’ blood. But Lord Sety cannot use swords, so he must have decided to entrust it to you instead.”

This implies that possibly anyone with any kind of holy blood can use the Bragi Sword, the only thing keeping Ced and Saias from using is that they don't have sword-wielding classes. There is also apparently a 4 character max for personal weapon wielders in T776, which explains why Marita and Galzus inexplicably can't use the sword. In other words, Leif is even less special than you suggest (until he promotes to Master Knight in FE4 that is).

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

We're not sure about what Fergus's holy blood is. And...

Cyas:
“Yes, Lord Sety asked me to give it to you. This is a holy sword only usable by those of the Holy Warriors’ blood. But Lord Sety cannot use swords, so he must have decided to entrust it to you instead.”

This implies that possibly anyone with any kind of holy blood can use the Bragi Sword, the only thing keeping Ced and Saias from using is that they don't have sword-wielding classes. There is also apparently a 4 character max for personal weapon wielders in T776, which explains why Marita and Galzus inexplicably can't use the sword. In other words, Leif is even less special than you suggest (until he promotes to Master Knight in FE4 that is).

Kind of weird they let Fergus and even included Delmud in the game (I've legitimately seen people forget he's even in the game) in that case, rather then letting the higher profile characters like Marita and Galzus get the extra attention. Though I suppose merely doing stuff like letting Fergus use it is fuel for fan theories. If Thracia does get remade I would like them to fix that little limitation. And also let the likes of Saias and Sety use it too if reclasssing is a thing. Eyvel should be able to use it too coming to think of it.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Jotari

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Kind of weird they let Fergus and even included Delmud in the game (I've legitimately seen people forget he's even in the game) in that case, rather then letting the higher profile characters like Marita and Galzus get the extra attention. Though I suppose merely doing stuff like letting Fergus use it is fuel for fan theories. If Thracia does get remade I would like them to fix that little limitation. And also let the likes of Saias and Sety use it too if reclasssing is a thing. Eyvel should be able to use it too coming to think of it.

Eyvel didn't actually have her Holy Blood anymore for some reason IIRC the convo at 24x mentioned it

 

That said the funniest thing about Leif is that he's much more "special" in Fe4 than in Fe5. Like half of Gen 2 centers around Leif so much that the game narrator questioned it themselves

Edited June 15, 2017 by JSND

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, JSND said:

Eyvel didn't actually have her Holy Blood anymore for some reason IIRC the convo at 24x mentioned it

 

That said the funniest thing about Leif is that he's much more "special" in Fe4 than in Fe5. Like half of Gen 2 centers around Leif so much that the game narrator questioned it themselves

Oh yeah. There was the whole broken geas thing that's really under explained and sort of forced. Still wish Eyvel wasn't Briggid. It adds nothing to the character.

[fangpoint333]

17 hours ago, JSND said:

Seriously speaking this post goes into details about it, but i've never been able to take any comment about how Ike is a relatable commoner, ordinary lord seriously. He basically stole his plotline from Leif, but Leif manage to be convincingly pulls off a commoner-stance while being a prince. Ike failed to do the same while being a mercenary. The game goes out of their way to mock the idea that Leif is supposed to be special. Its not until the game's own Gottoh have a personal talk with Leif that Leif is potrayed as a messianic figure. Before that, he's just a mercenary of a backwater village of a poor countryside that can't even have a farm

A funny contrast in particular is when Leif get Ragnel, so that he can finally settle the score with the Black Knight for killing his parent

In FE5, the game specifically made sure to mention that while Leif can wield it himself, he's not special for it. His sister can wield it. His sister's brother can wield it. Even a random guy he met on a fucking prison can wield it.

 

None of the FE lords are particularly relatable to us commoners not living in medieval Europe fantasyland while trying to fight an empire. Even Leif was still heads and shoulders above being a commoner. He himself isn't special but he's still Cuan's son and heir to Lennster which serves as a rallying cause for a bunch of people and he manages to easily acquaint with people who are royalty or whatever just because he's a prince. He's still more of a chosen one than Ike because while he himself isn't that special, people still believe him to be their last hope from even before meeting him. Ike on the other hand had barely anyone have faith in him for the first dozen chapters or so.

[Jotari]

The lord that most resembles Ike is Alm. Sure he happens to actually be royalty but until the end of the story he doesn't know nor do any of the people around him (sans Mycan). They both have the same basic background of being raised by a really renowned warrior that solves his problems using brute force that inspires and rallies the people around him. Even if Leif is a dispossessed noble, he still is a noble. He knows it and he has a destiny he's expected to up hold because of it. Contemporary nobles were pretty big into the whole blood thing but we know that's BS. Being noble is about how you act not where you were born. Alm didn't know he was a noble until the end of the game, that makes him way more of a commoner than Leif despite Leif having harsher living circumstances.

Speaking of which I would like to see an inverse of the Alm plot twist. A lord that discovers in the third act that they're secretly a bastard child that has no birthright to their throne.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Jotari

[Refa]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The lord that most resembles Ike is Alm. Sure he happens to actually be royalty but until the end of the story he doesn't know nor do any of the people around him (sans Mycan). They both have the same basic background of being raised by a really renowned warrior that solves his problems using brute force that inspires and rallies the people around him.

I found Alm to be more like the standard FE lord than Ike.  Not saying that he doesn't have similarities to Ike (mainly that he's totally cool with beating up fools), but most of his character traits are closer to Marth.  Awakening Alm would be a lot closer to Ike, but unfortunately it was not to be.

[Jotari]

28 minutes ago, Refa said:

I found Alm to be more like the standard FE lord than Ike.  Not saying that he doesn't have similarities to Ike (mainly that he's totally cool with beating up fools), but most of his character traits are closer to Marth.  Awakening Alm would be a lot closer to Ike, but unfortunately it was not to be.

Yeah I'm pretty massively disappointed without how they handled Alm's personality. I even made a thread wondering about it when the game was only announced and it's one of those times where it sucks to be right. Shadows of Valentia Alm is a smiling positive friend to everyone type of guy which isn't at all what the plot calls for. He's meant to be the pragmatic warlord to Celica's idealistic saint. Making him more generic just makes her seem more idiotic and it just spoils the theme of balance they have going on. Alm doesn't learn or grow throughout the game, he's perfect to start with and perfect to end with. The more aggressive personality isn't even something exclusive to Awakening. Just look at his original sprite. It comes with a constance scowl that screams "I don't give two shits what you think." There's even little things like, if I remember correctly, Mycen just vanishes in Shadows of Valentia when Alm goes to tell him he's leaving. In the original Alm and Mycen actually talk and disagree with each other. Alm also says he held a grudge against Mycen when Celica got taken away. Gaiden was minimalistic but it still had a clear picture of what kind of person Alm is meant to be and it's not the Alm we got in the remake.

 

Sorry, off topic rant but how they handled Alm is a sore point for me. They had the opportunity to make a really distinct and memorable lord but instead they gave us Marth 5.0.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Jotari

[Refa]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah I'm pretty massively disappointed without how they handled Alm's personality. I even made a thread wondering about it when the game was only announced and it's one of those times where it sucks to be right. Shadows of Valentia Alm is a smiling positive friend to everyone type of guy which isn't at all what the plot calls for. He's meant to be the pragmatic warlord to Celica's idealistic saint. Making him more generic just makes her seem more idiotic and it just spoils the theme of balance they have going on. Alm doesn't learn or grow throughout the game, he's perfect to start with and perfect to end with. The more aggressive personality isn't even something exclusive to Awakening. Just look at his original sprite. It comes with a constance scowl that screams "I don't give two shits what you think." There's even little things like, if I remember correctly, Mycen just vanishes in Shadows of Valentia when Alm goes to tell him he's leaving. In the original Alm and Mycen actually talk and disagree with each other. Alm also says he held a grudge against Mycen when Celica got taken away. Gaiden was minimalistic but it still had a clear picture of what kind of person Alm is meant to be and it's not the Alm we got in the remake.

Sorry, off topic rant but how they handled Alm is a sore point for me. They had the opportunity to make a really distinct and memorable lord but instead they gave us Marth 5.0.

Nah, I'm definitely with you all the way on this one.  I don't even dislike Alm in Echoes, but it's more that he had so much potential and when I think of that I'm just like...why?  For once, Awakening did something right!  Make use of that, dammit.

But uh, yeah, Ike.  He's a cool guy who doesn't afraid of nothing.  None of the things OP mentioned really bothered me.  /shrug  He's not one of my favourite lords, but there's not much that I find particularly objectionable either.  I wish the game challenged him and his beliefs more too, but not every lord can be Leaf.

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, Refa said:

Nah, I'm definitely with you all the way on this one.  I don't even dislike Alm in Echoes, but it's more that he had so much potential and when I think of that I'm just like...why?  For once, Awakening did something right!  Make use of that, dammit.

But uh, yeah, Ike.  He's a cool guy who doesn't afraid of nothing.  None of the things OP mentioned really bothered me.  /shrug  He's not one of my favourite lords, but there's not much that I find particularly objectionable either.  I wish the game challenged him and his beliefs more too, but not every lord can be Leaf.

Yeah, I don't dislike Echoes!Alm inherently either. It's a classic case of "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed."

(btw, I think the writing for Awakening's DLC is way stronger than the main game overall. Future Past is more engaging than anything in the main narrative, Death's Embrace is surprisingly serious (when put back to back with the silly Anna stuff at any rate) and the pseudo support conversations tend to be more fun than a lot of main game supports (probably because they don't all depend on marriage being the end goal). I think the sheer volume of writing required for Awakening is the big reason it was so weak. When there wasn't as tough deadlines and less pressure it's a lot stronger).

Edited June 16, 2017 by Jotari

[Thane]

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, I don't dislike Echoes!Alm inherently either. It's a classic case of "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed."

He's one of my least favorite lords, probably. I can't say the main characters are Fire Emblem's strongest point, but Alm is infuriatingly perfect and doesn't even fit into the narrative of his own game, going against both the major theme of finding balance between two extreme ideals and the minor theme of your blood not mattering.

At least he's not Corrin.

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think the writing for Awakening's DLC is way stronger than the main game overall.

I agree. This was also the case in Echoes, where Rise of the Deliverance offered the most solid worldbuilding and story with the exception of Clair and Mathilda's map, as well as some of the best supports in the game. Maybe it's easier to write something good when it's more focused, they have more time or they just want to let those who pay that little extra to enjoy the really good stuff.

[The DanMan]

1 hour ago, Thane said:

He's one of my least favorite lords, probably. I can't say the main characters are Fire Emblem's strongest point, but Alm is infuriatingly perfect and doesn't even fit into the narrative of his own game, going against both the major theme of finding balance between two extreme ideals and the minor theme of your blood not mattering.

At least he's not Corrin.

Likely due to Fates' writing being beaten into the ground, I'm extremely "whatever" on Corrin.

SoV Alm is far and away my least favorite lord in the series. The fact that his VA described him an interview as "the archetypical hero figure everyone wants to be" shows that they had absolutely no idea what they were doing with Alm.
In general I actively dislike SoV's writing far more than Fates' and Awakening's. The former range from boring to entertainingly terrible-- SoV's just unapologetically mediocre. It starts out all right and then just keeps kicking the ball down further down the hole, spinning a narrative that's somehow even worse than the original when it was an easy enough job to fix, putting "effort" into half-assing new villains and plotpoints rather than fixing the old ones.

I went in with mostly blank expectations, expecting the odd dumb moment to hold it back. Instead it was a ton of dumb with the occasional decent moment shining through, reminding me that it's actually a salvageable narrative and IS just managed to screw up for the 3rd time in a row.

 

So that this isn't a total derail: yeah, Ike's not the best written character, but a lot of his issues are really "main character" syndrome-- pretty much every work of fiction set on a decently large scale utilizes some unlikely contrivance or another that justifies the MC being, well, the MC.

Edited June 17, 2017 by The DanMan

[Baldrick]

Alm and Ike have similar problems. They both start out strong, as a nobody who is put into a position of leadership due to circumstances and have clashes with the establishment, but once that arc is over, the writers seemingly have no idea what to do with them and they become an invincible hero without any flaws. At least Ike waited until the sequel to do that.

[fangpoint333]

4 hours ago, The DanMan said:

So that this isn't a total derail: yeah, Ike's not the best written character, but a lot of his issues are really "main character" syndrome-- pretty much every work of fiction set on a decently large scale utilizes some unlikely contrivance or another that justifies the MC being, well, the MC.

Yeah, you kinda have to just accept there's always gonna be some unlikely stuff to line up for the main character to be the main character. If it was just an ordinary everyman with a realistic situation and no enormous strokes of luck, he'd just wind up being an ordinary everyman and wouldn't be worth writing about. A Fire Emblem game with none of that would just be: Training chapter prologue, chapter one empire attacks, chapter two in which you die because there's no legendary power/weapon to save you, you don't meet with anyone important enough to have the power to save you, and you aren't talented at fighting because you weren't trained by a famous knight or teacher or whatever.

[Troykv]

On 2017-6-16 at 7:19 PM, The DanMan said:

Likely due to Fates' writing being beaten into the ground, I'm extremely "whatever" on Corrin.

SoV Alm is far and away my least favorite lord in the series. The fact that his VA described him an interview as "the archetypical hero figure everyone wants to be" shows that they had absolutely no idea what they were doing with Alm.
In general I actively dislike SoV's writing far more than Fates' and Awakening's. The former range from boring to entertainingly terrible-- SoV's just unapologetically mediocre. It starts out all right and then just keeps kicking the ball down further down the hole, spinning a narrative that's somehow even worse than the original when it was an easy enough job to fix, putting "effort" into half-assing new villains and plotpoints rather than fixing the old ones.

I went in with mostly blank expectations, expecting the odd dumb moment to hold it back. Instead it was a ton of dumb with the occasional decent moment shining through, reminding me that it's actually a salvageable narrative and IS just managed to screw up for the 3rd time in a row.

 

So that this isn't a total derail: yeah, Ike's not the best written character, but a lot of his issues are really "main character" syndrome-- pretty much every work of fiction set on a decently large scale utilizes some unlikely contrivance or another that justifies the MC being, well, the MC.

Do you think I should not buy SoV?

[The DanMan]

5 hours ago, Troykv said:

Do you think I should not buy SoV?

The gameplay's got enough novelty for a playthrough or two and the quality of the VO does hold up the writing-- it's really just up to you.

Edited June 18, 2017 by The DanMan

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, Troykv said:

Do you think I should not buy SoV?

It's still a Fire Emblem game. So if you enjoyed the others there's a pretty high chance you'll derive some amount of pleasure from it. I certainly did despite my complaints.

[Augestein]

On 6/11/2017 at 3:34 PM, ping said:

Sorry, but that's a very resentful (I hope that word is more or less correct) way to read that scene. Ike makes a mistake in that scene and the game actually acknowleges it - Sanaki directly tells him that he's hurting Elincia's position, and afterwards he is told that he almost talked himself to death there. But it would be utterly OOC for Sanaki to actually condemn Ike to death in that scene - she is shown to be a bit childish, but very moral throughout PoR and the discussed scene is very much consistent with her apology to Reyson and Leanne later in the game where she shows once more that she doesn't agree with the exaltated status of the Empress when she bends her knee to them. [btw- I wonder if the writers had known about the Warschauer Kniefall. If so, I'm quite impressed with the scene]

I do agree with some of your points, Augestein, particularly about how frigging inexperienced Ike is when he's named commander, but in this case I feel like you're reaching to make Ike seem favoured in that scene. Same with the delayed/averted punishment when he rushes to Mist's and Rolf's aid - yes, he avoids grounding, but that's because his father was fucking murdered before his very eyes. That's really not showing what a lucky guy Ike happens to be.

I meant to respond for earlier but I couldn't because of life stuff. Anyways. Here's what I'm saying. It doesn't. The problem with your rebuttal here is that you're largely looking at this scene in a tunnel vision. The issue here is that this scene is a culmination of what's wrong with that game, and it never actually stops with Ike. Queue 2 chapters later, chapter 16, and Ike is once again pulling THIS nonsense again: 

Sigrun
Ah, Master Ike! No! You mustn't behave so! You will cause such problems!

Ike
Apostle...

Sanaki
What? You! What are you doing? How dare you approach me unannounced! This is most inappropriate, and I will not--

Elincia
What has happened, my lord Ike?

Ike
All of it. I want to hear all of it...Now!

Sanaki
What are you talking about?

Sigrun
Master Ike! One must not speak to the apostle in such a discourteous fashion!

And what happens? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So no, it's not just a warning that means something, it's not even a slap on the wrist, and it has no bearing on anything because Ike's behavior doesn't change, and I'd actually say at this point that it's worse than it was before. The consistency is only there in the "Ike immunity" syndrome that the game seems to dote on so much. 

 

This is exactly why Ike feels favored in this scene, because nothing ever comes of it. Ike doesn't learn from it, and Ike continues to act like a jackass. As for Ike missing punishment because his father died? That's not it; it's immediately deferred because "there aren't enough people." When realistically, this could have been handled as easily as having Ike do KP duty for the night or extra punishment training or something like that... It wouldn't have even needed to be much-- making the entire ordeal just pointless. 

 

Compare that to people like say Eirika that have bad things happen to them constantly over their journey, and basically couldn't survive if they didn't have Seth next to her at all times, or Eliwood, who starts out having to be rescued by his friend or even Chrom, that screws up so badly that he needs time travel in order to save him. 

On 6/17/2017 at 0:41 AM, fangpoint333 said:

Yeah, you kinda have to just accept there's always gonna be some unlikely stuff to line up for the main character to be the main character. If it was just an ordinary everyman with a realistic situation and no enormous strokes of luck, he'd just wind up being an ordinary everyman and wouldn't be worth writing about. A Fire Emblem game with none of that would just be: Training chapter prologue, chapter one empire attacks, chapter two in which you die because there's no legendary power/weapon to save you, you don't meet with anyone important enough to have the power to save you, and you aren't talented at fighting because you weren't trained by a famous knight or teacher or whatever.

That's not necessarily true though. You can have a story work just fine with an unremarkable main character.  Take Fire Emblem 7, the tactician. If (s)he was a playable character, that would be a main character that is unremarkable. You can have a character that is involved with something bigger-- the same sort of thing happens with Roy. He's basically a commander that ends up doing a general's role because of what happens. 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Augestein said:

That's not necessarily true though. You can have a story work just fine with an unremarkable main character.  Take Fire Emblem 7, the tactician. If (s)he was a playable character, that would be a main character that is unremarkable. You can have a character that is involved with something bigger-- the same sort of thing happens with Roy. He's basically a commander that ends up doing a general's role because of what happens. 

Is that really better though? FE7 can either be about Eliwood and his journeys, or it can be about the guy observing Eliwood do all this stuff while he sits around and does nothing. It just reminds me of how the excs demanded Final Fantasy 12 have a hip young lead since they didn't think the grizzled bad ass could sell copies of the game, so they shove Vann into the plot and upset the flow of the entire story. Of course ordinary, unremarkable characters can be at the centre of a story, but if the story is inherently about unremarkable, wide scope, continent spanning stuff then it kind of makes little sense for the protagonist to be some generic nobody who does nothing (and Roy is arguably more special than Ike with his own destined sword and the ability to always be right no matter what. Like I love Roy as a character because of how he reasons and works out things but given the set up, he definitely is a remarkable character).

Like I don't think an unremarkable character is something the series can't do, I just think the example your providing (and trying to turn something like Tellius into something like it) isn't as solid as it seems. Conversely, I would love to see a plot that focuses on a smaller area with an emphasis on how war effects everyone. With a protagonist that's just trying to protect what he can within his limited control while the actual resolution with the great prince and evil emperor happens in the backdrop.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Jotari