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I am not sure I get this...
Yeah, questioning a FE plot.

I know the story changes depending on which route you take. The events do not really happen simultaneously, only key parts because characters cannot be at two places at once for example.
So the "real" story is the one you choose.

In that case.

Lyon during Eirika's story is pretty much possessed by the Demon King for good because the king misused his desires and jealousy.
This also happens during Ephraim's scenario but there it seems more like Lyon is still mostly him and he just tapped into the power of the Demon King until he got completely devoured but all his actions were self-aware and just to satisfy his inferiority complex.

I am kinda confused. I feel like depending on the scenario, Lyon is also different.
Not sure if I am making any sense.

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36 minutes ago, MadJak91 said:

I am not sure I get this...
Yeah, questioning a FE plot.

I know the story changes depending on which route you take. The events do not really happen simultaneously, only key parts because characters cannot be at two places at once for example.
So the "real" story is the one you choose.

In that case.

Lyon during Eirika's story is pretty much possessed by the Demon King for good because the king misused his desires and jealousy.
This also happens during Ephraim's scenario but there it seems more like Lyon is still mostly him and he just tapped into the power of the Demon King until he got completely devoured but all his actions were self-aware and just to satisfy his inferiority complex.

I am kinda confused. I feel like depending on the scenario, Lyon is also different.
Not sure if I am making any sense.

I think lyon just liked ephriahm more, so he had more morals left

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1 hour ago, MadJak91 said:

I know the story changes depending on which route you take. The events do not really happen simultaneously, only key parts because characters cannot be at two places at once for example.
So the "real" story is the one you choose.

In that case.

Lyon during Eirika's story is pretty much possessed by the Demon King for good because the king misused his desires and jealousy.
This also happens during Ephraim's scenario but there it seems more like Lyon is still mostly him and he just tapped into the power of the Demon King until he got completely devoured but all his actions were self-aware and just to satisfy his inferiority complex.

I am kinda confused. I feel like depending on the scenario, Lyon is also different.

You have things about right. Lyon is different depending on whose path you choose. And your portrayals of Lyon are about correct too.

Eirika's Lyon is more readily a tragic figure being the victim of possession. Eirika's route lacks any mention of the big earthquake which will destroy Grado in the future- this is highly important for Ephraim's Lyon. But its absence on Eirika's route means that the developers only had Lyon's bond with the Renais twins to work with, and thus that is what is emphasized.

Whereas on Ephraim's route, Lyon is still corrupted/possessed, but it's more subtle. The Demon King begins by directly hijacking Lyon, like in Eirika's route, but during C18 this is suddenly flipped on its head. Lyon says he isn't being possessed, and that he never was, and while we can take him at face value (Ephraim ultimately does), we could also assume it's a farce by the Demon King. People (including myself) generally prefer to think Lyon does maintain his own independent agency, and that the Demon King, while still using him, isn't just masquerading as a gentle Lyon at this point. But there is some ambiguity here.

Lyon's insecurity is both concerning himself and his bonds to Ephraim and Eirika: it's that he doesn't think he's strong enough to save Grado's people after the big earthquake that he predicts will destroy the country, and that Ephraim and Eirika when the time comes won't help Grado. He tampered with Grado's Sacred Stone for the sake of getting the power to prevent the catastrophe. There is a little jealousy towards the strong Ephraim as well, but it isn't central to him, I think its more prevalent in Eirika's Lyon.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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Thanks!

From talk it seems people prefer Eirika's route Lyon and plot of that path in general and that is fine. I myself found Ephraim's scenario more interesting maybe because it plays more like your other FEs. In terms of story as well and I ultimately liked that Lyon better.

Ya, Eirika's Lyon is more tragic but her actions towards him rub me the wrong way because Eirika is shown how corrupted and hollow puppet Lyon became yet she still (stupidly) trusts him TOO much, haha. Ephraim seems more accepting of the fact that Lyon's soul has long expired.

Ephraim's Lyon is like: "You know what? I am not totally corrupted and some of it I did out of personal matters so suck it!" and Ephraim's final battle conversation with him is super straightforward, haha.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I prefer Ephraim's Lyon and I guess that route in general.

The jealousy strikes me as better than the outright possession even though he is still technically possessed. It is just more questionable on Ephraim's route.

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20 minutes ago, Paper Jam said:

Did Fomortiis even possess Lyon in Ephraim's route? It seemed to me like all he did was give Lyon a bunch of power and let it drive him mad.

Here is the most relevant text from Ephraim's versions of River of Regrets, Two Faces of Evil, and the Final Chapter:

C17:

Spoiler

Ephraim:
“You…”

Lyon:
“I can repeat it for you now if you would like. The ruins of Renais? The murder of your father? It was all my doing. I, Lyon, prince of Grado, made it happen.”

Eirika:
“Lyon… You lie! That can’t be…”

Ephraim:
“Don’t be fooled, Eirika. Keep your guard up. That’s not Lyon.”

Lyon:
“…… What amusing things come babbling out of your mouth. You always thought of Lyon as kind, gentle, and weak, didn’t you? Admit it.”

Ephraim:
“No! Lyon, Eirika, and I were friends. There were things we kept to ourselves, of course, but we shared so much. And no matter what happened, no matter how much time passed… We’re still friends. Lyon would never ever betray us. Not in a million years. You’re not Lyon.”

(Lyon’s speech bubble become black, the Demon King talks)

Evil Lyon:
“…I see. So I have no reason to continue hiding my true identity, do I?”

Ephraim:
“None!”

Evil Lyon:
“You are correct. This body no longer belongs to your young Lyon. I devoured his pathetic heart ages ago.”

Ephraim:
“You monster! Who are you?!”

Evil Lyon:
“Do you really not know me? What a poorly educated prince. Think about it. Remember the legends of your pitiful kind… What was sealed within the Stone of Grado? What is the name of terror?”

Eirika:
“No… It can’t be!”

L’Arachel:
“It’s as we feared after all. That can only be…”

Ephraim:
“The great adversary of antiquity… The Demon King…”

Evil Lyon:
“That’s right. You know to fear my name. Prince Lyon was a weakling. Now, he is dead.”

Eirika:
“That can’t be?br>”

Evil Lyon:
“Prince Ephraim of Renais… You hold a Sacred Stone. Give it to me. I have no wish to see a warrior die a pitiful death beneath my feet. Bend your knee. If you pledge service to me, I may yet let you live.”

Ephraim:
“Do you take me for a fool?”

Evil Lyon:
“You’ve made your choice, have you? A poor choice… But it does afford me a chance to show you something special. A force no human flesh can withstand. A horror beyond words. A power that will place this sad world under my dominion. I am the Demon King… Behold my might.”

 

(After Battle)

Evil Lyon:
“Not yet… I have not the strength. But I am the Demon King… The world will be mine, as it was in ancient days. Injuries such as these are not enough to stop me…”

C18:

Spoiler

Evil Lyon:
“And that’s the end of your Sacred Stone… Now then, Prince Ephraim. Are you prepared?”

Ephraim:
“Curse you… Do it!!! Finish me! With my dying breath, I’ll cut you to ribbons.”

Evil Lyon:
“……”

Ephraim:
“What are you waiting for?! Are you frightened?”

Evil Lyon:
“…Tell me, Prince Ephraim of Renais. Why do you fight on? Do you think you accomplish your sad desire? Can you restore your homeland from the grave? Overthrow “evil? Or protect your sister?”

Ephraim:
“You won’t kill me. I’ll do all these things, fiend… All these things and more. For my friend Lyon… I will avenge his soul. I won’t let his gentle image be defiled…”

(Evil Lyon turns into regular Lyon)

Lyon:
“…… I guess it’s true… You haven’t changed, Ephraim.”

Ephraim:
“Huh? What’s– What did you say?”

Lyon:
“……”

Ephraim:
“What’s going on? You’re the Demon King… You’re the ancient evil… You told me you’d devoured Lyon’s soul, that nothing remained. So why did you… How do you know about me? It’s not… Could it be…you…”

Lyon:
“……”

Ephraim:
“Is that you…Lyon?”

Lyon:
“Uh-huh… That’s right. It’s me, Lyon, Prince of Grado. I’m not the Demon King. Sorry, Ephraim. That whole thing about the Demon King eating my soul and me dying? That was all a lie.”

Ephraim:
“Wha– Why?! Why would you say such a thing?!”

Lyon:
“Listen, Ephraim. I’ve always loved you. I’ve always hated you. I’ve always looked up to you. I wanted to be just like you. Then one day I realized… Someone like me could never become someone like you. You and Eirika are…overpowering. You blinded me with your radiance. How could I live in your shadows and not seethe with jealousy?”

Ephraim:
“Lyon…”

Lyon:
“Before I ever touched the Dark Stone… I had a vision. A vision of the future of Magvel. I saw myself standing with two roads stretched out before me. One led to the Demon King, devouring both my body and soul. The other showed me the power to fight the Demon King’s dominion. And I, well.. …Gaa…urgh.”

Ephraim:
“Lyon!”

Lyon:
“Then I acquired the Dark Stone. The Demon King began to eat my soul and corrupt my flesh. I almost vanished beneath the Demon King’s mantle. The I remembered you… My mind blazed into wakefulness. All at once, my mind shouted out, “I will not be devoured!” Just as I was about to lose myself to the Demon King. I was able to drive him back. The Demon King’s desires are simple–foul, but uncomplicated. He wants nothing but the destruction, conquest, and subjugation of man. These shallow desires are nothing to the dreams of the human heart. And of the two roads I had seen, I chose the latter.”

Ephraim:
“…..”

Lyon:
“But I didn’t want to appear before you here in the role of Lyon. Lyon, the piteous victim… The Demon King, the fiendish villain… It was all an act–high drama for you all, to suit this grand occasion. That’s right, Ephraim. I’m the Demon King… The Demon King is me.”

Ephraim:
“You lie… It can’t be. It’s not possible. Lyon was… My friend was kind and caring… He was a good person… But you… You are not that person!”

Lyon:
“Ephraim…”

Ephraim:
“You… You’re the Demon King. Lyon is gone, and you are a liar! You’re trying to trick me. You’re trying to confuse me! I’m right, aren’t I?! Tell me I’m right, Lyon! TELL ME!”

Lyon:
“I’m sorry, Ephraim. Ephraim, listen to me. Ten days from now… When the moon is swallowed by shadow… In Darkling Woods, I will perform a ceremony… Through this ceremony, I will gain immense power. Power not change not only Grado, but the entire world.”

Ephraim:
“Change…the world?”

Lyon:
“But after that… I cannot save myself. I’ll become the Demon King of old and try to destroy all of mankind. Ephraim. If you want to stop this, you must come to Darkling Woods. I want you to come. I need you to stop me. You must promise.”

Final:

Spoiler

Demon King:
“Heh heh…heh heh heh… Well done, Lyon. The sacrifice of your flesh and the sum of your efforts… They were all for naught. Grado’s disaster cannot be averted. My resurrection is at hand. All this time, you imagined yourself in possession of your own free will, but it was I who planted the seed from which your ambitions grew. My deceit made you my puppet, and oh, how you danced at the end of my strings. You could never have been saved. It’s a shame, isn’t it, Lyon? And now I… I am reborn.”

Was Lyon being possessed by the Demon King on Ephraim's route. Well I think we can say he was being influenced beyond a reasonable doubt. The DK's words in Final cited above say that he only influenced Lyon, and it says nothing of ever outright possessing him. But there might be just a little room for thinking otherwise- the DK could be just putting on an elaborate act when he pretended to be good Lyon, and him continuing the act to the end when he is revived. Compared to when I last examined this, my view of ambiguity in the matter of Eph!Lyon has declined.

It is worth noting that the DK on Eirika's route doesn't say anything like what he does on Ephraim's Final Chapter at the very same point (that of being his first words after resurrection) are much fewer, only

“Now, humans…Lament your fate. Weep for the dead. Despair for the living. Wail and tremble in grief. Grovel in awe and fear. I am returned.”

which to me suggests that IS wanted to go out of their way to clarify Ephraim route Lyon.

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  • 1 month later...
On 6/14/2017 at 1:07 AM, MadJak91 said:

Thanks!

From talk it seems people prefer Eirika's route Lyon and plot of that path in general and that is fine. I myself found Ephraim's scenario more interesting maybe because it plays more like your other FEs. In terms of story as well and I ultimately liked that Lyon better.

Ya, Eirika's Lyon is more tragic but her actions towards him rub me the wrong way because Eirika is shown how corrupted and hollow puppet Lyon became yet she still (stupidly) trusts him TOO much, haha. Ephraim seems more accepting of the fact that Lyon's soul has long expired.

Ephraim's Lyon is like: "You know what? I am not totally corrupted and some of it I did out of personal matters so suck it!" and Ephraim's final battle conversation with him is super straightforward, haha.

Ephraim mode Lyon was much more interesting than Eirika's route Lyon in my opinion.
Ephraim's Lyon is more complicated, and the dynamic between him and Ephraim is much more interesting than the one between Lyon and Eirika.
If anyone can help me to appreciate Eirika's Lyon more, I'd love to hear it.

Edited by Devnad
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13 minutes ago, Devnad said:

Ephraim mode Lyon was much more interesting than Eirika's route Lyon in my opinion.

Ephraim's Lyon is moore complicated, and the back and forth between him and Ephraim is usually quite entertaining and reveals a lot about Ephraim's character.
If anyone can help me to appreciate Eirika's route more, I'd love to hear it.

The only thing I can think of that makes Eirika's route better is the recruitment of characters makes more sense.

It makes more sense for Gerik + Tethys to be with Eirika because she eventually meets up with Innes and Saleh, both of which are associated with Gerik + Tethys. Why would Innes send those two down to Ephraim when it's clear that Innes doesn't really like him and prefers Eirika?

Cormag's recruitment in Ephraim is weird. Tana has a Caeda moment and that's it. In Eirika's story, we learn that Glen is killed by his own "ally", which gives Cormag a clear reason to defect. In Ephraim mode, we don't even know what happens to Glen.

IMO, Tana also seems to be more likely to go with Eirika. You could make the argument that she had a crush on Ephraim, but Eirika is literally her best friend.

Marisa's guild completely messing up the side and place she's to fight for seems really odd in Ephraim route, so again, Eirika mode makes more sense.

Ewan being closer to his sister and Saleh makes more sense too in Eirika than his location in Ephraim.

Amelia doesn't matter either way though.

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I think Eirika's Lyon would be better if Eirika were not so goshdang dumb about it later in the game, haha.
Seems to be the case with people though. Eirika's route is considered better in terms of story while Ephraim probably has the better gameplay and Lyon's characterization that goes farther than mwahaha evil.

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7 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

IMO, Tana also seems to be more likely to go with Eirika. You could make the argument that she had a crush on Ephraim, but Eirika is literally her best friend.

It's not unlikely for her to go with Ephraim in order to get a chance at winning his heart, so her recruitment in both routes make sense.

However, I do think that her going with Eirika is more likely than her going with Ephraim.

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