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Policy Issues  

71 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Mila's Turnwheel be allowed?

    • Yes, you can't use it to rig better levelups anyway. Make full use of it.
    • Yes, but edit out the failed turns from the video to keep it watchable.
    • No, it's cheap.
  2. 2. How should I handle coins and forging?

    • Farm all the silver marks you wish and forge towards best equips early; no limits.
    • Don't pick up any silver marks or food from dungeons; limit yourself to money acquired from fixed events only.
    • Other (state your idea)
  3. 3. How should non-mandatory encounters on the map be treated?

    • Face the ones you can't avoid and count the turns toward the total TC.
    • Face the unavoidable ones and don't count the turn count.
    • Fight them repeatedly to gain the necessary advantage in storyline maps.
    • Other (?)
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Comparing my original 1-5/1-6 clears, this seems to have happened to everyone but Claire and Lukas who retain their bonus exp. Fatigue seems like an unlikely correlation considering only Alm and Gray finish the chapter with anything other than a smiling face. This appears to be happening every single time I am done with 1-5.

As for 1-3, Silque got as many as 7 kills and still carried over her bonus experience. 

There was some update to the game released recently, wasn't there? Maybe applying it will alleviate the issue? That is, providing they were aware of it to begin with.

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Updating is probably the best bet, although to be honest I have my doubts on whether or not they'd know about this issue. It's still quite strange to me, I have to say. Your 1-3 clear basically debunks my original thoughts that it was tied to a single unit receiving too much combat. I've only personally ever had this happen to Silque, which is the main reason I had made that assumption. I can tell you that this is a rare issue, but unfortunately the save file where I had this problem is long since gone (shout out to Intelligent Systems for only including 3 save slots) so I can't help too much, sorry.

There's really not a whole lot that I've been able to find on the BEXP system for this game either. Perhaps there's some strange quirk in the way the game handles things that causes this to happen under certain circumstances. What's very odd though is how you say this persists on repeated playthroughs of these maps. Have you been able to get the game to properly register BEXP from these maps if you deviate from your strategy? Or does it seem like your actions have no bearing on this glitch, in which case unfortunately, the file is probably lost?

 

 

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Here's a Linkmstr video:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Make note of the exp values prior and following the bonus exp dump @ around 9:44. Then check the characters' exp when they start moving in the following map at about 15:50. Kliff, Tobin, Gray, Silque and Faye all go back to their pre-bonus exp dump values. Alm and Lukas aren't affected (Claire and Lukas are the unaffected ones when I check my videos), and Claire inexplicably goes from 72 to 70 exp, the latter number being neither her pre- nor post- exp dump value. 

If this is a glitch only affecting a particular version of the game, I could transfer my saves to a different version and do map 1-5 there, then transfer my saves back to the English language version I'm playing. 

edit: if you check a Japanese playthrough, the error is still there. Go figure. 

edit2: the 1.1 update does not  fix this (just tested). 

Edited by Espinosa
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So it's been brought to my attention that my turn count in 1-6 is 5 turns not 4 as I'd previously thought. Here's the YT video (from my original run that I will discard if I can get Silque to lv. 7 for 1-7) for anyone who's been wondering if it can be 4-turned somehow:

If Alm gets swapped enough (dunno how however) i.e. 3 times he can engage the cavs in direct combat. Without an Iron Sword and at 13 str, he can deal 12 dmg to them, dealing the other 16 on EP with an Iron Sword equipped back in. He can even try to kill the boss on turn 4 (7x4 dmg with a crit is not enough...) or weaken him and expose Silque to him if she's even getting close enough. If she doesn't kill the boss in this map, she's not getting to lv. 7 for 1-7 period. Or maybe I'm not doing a good enough job in 1-5 if she only gets like 1.01 worth of exp (with the bonus disappearing mysteriously)? 

So 1-6 is a map that *might* be improved by 1 turn, complicating our other objectives even more. 

Also holy shit, the new Serenes forum engine is abysmal. Not only can you not adequately see topics with new activity, but it's almost impossible to do anything about the spoilered code tags you've previously entered into posts. I can't delete my old code tag, nor can I do an edit without having to tick a "captcha" (with no actual words or letters) that just brings me back to the post with my edit undone... every time. Can't even edit my turn count in the 1st post. 

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Just so I'm understanding correctly, Silque is at 6.XX after 1-5 correct? She should be able to make it on 1-6 if you drag out killing the initial wave of Cavaliers a bit. Granted, I doubt that this would work if you can somehow get the 4 Turn on this map, but on my last run I believe I was able to squeeze that last level out by using Alm/Faye to weaken the Cavaliers for Silque. This is just from memory, but as I recall she ended up with 2 Cavs + the boss who she would kill on PP 5. Claire flew north to injure 2 of the Cavaliers on EP 3, Gray choked the bridge and was attacked by the boss on EP 4. Tobin and Faye set up the kill for Silque, as Kliff injured the 3rd Cavalier approaching from the north. The remaining 3 cavaliers killed themselves on Gray during EP 5, for the 5 Turn clear.

Again, it may not be possible with a 4 Turn restriction, but with 5 Turns I think you should be able to salvage the run. Alternatively, you could have Silque draw in the enemies in place of Tobin for your 1-5 strategy, and try to squeeze some more EXP out that way, although you would lose out on some points towards Swap. Good luck man!

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In a 5-turn, Silque getting a full level is no problem. She can chip the cavs and even get close enough to kill the boss. I guess Alm needn't be Swapped three times, but for each time you Swap him, you need to crit one less Cavalier. Swap him thrice and he will only need to crit the boss. 

I could get Cliff to Swap during 1-4/1-5 (2+3 rounds of combat with the leather shield), but nobody else. On my old clear, Cliff and Silque got to Swap around turn 3 of the same map - 1-6, but by then Alm was already too far away. Also, unless Cav!Kliff is in the game, whoever Swapped Alm prior to him moving will never see him during the map again. I think this will have to be dropped, as you need an Irysa-level control of the RNG and combat every round to pull something like this off. Not quite achievable on console, and you can agree my approach is ambitious enough as it is. And even then getting to Swap between 1-3 and 1-5 sounds like the equivalent of playing FE6 HM LTC with deaths allowed, which nobody in the FE community has understandably tackled yet. 

I guess good level-ups and allocation of experience it is then. 1-5 won't give draw me cards that will satisfy me enough to move on. The one save I've got that I may return if I get desperate has some flaws: a pointless Kliff level with no offence, Silque only getting +1str/spd (could be better really), but satisfactory Gray/Alm/lolLukas levelups. 

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Finally arrived in 1-7 with Warp!Silque, though I do intend to retry 1-6 for better level-ups. In particular, it seems like Gray really appreciates having more defence if he's the one being warped first, because a single point creates a noticeable difference in staying potential. A def proc in 1-6 might be a good idea and maybe I could use the well for the same purpose? Probably not, as str/mag points are really valuable for Warp ranges and reliable ORKOing. 

An alternative would be warping somebody other than Lightning Sword Gray, like maybe Gray, Alm or Tobin with a Leather Shield? Tobin wouldn't last with 5 AS and 5+3 def, but Alm and Gray would. 

By the way, can Celica make use of Alm's chapter 1 wells when she gets there towards the end of the following chapter? Has anybody tried? As long as there are no random encounters on the map, I can move around to my heart's content. 

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Gray absolutely appreciates DEF somewhere along the way, but given the floor tiles everywhere it's technically possible from base DEF with enough Turnwheel. Not ideal, sure, but I never felt raw DEF was mandatory in this case. I'd avoid the wells for the reasons you said: ATK is just too good especially with Silque needing a minimum of 12 make 1-7 work in the first place. 

I believe that Gray is the best candidate to aggro Slayde's unit on sheer damage potential alone. Leather Shield!Tobin and Alm make for pretty good secondary units here in my experience, being able to easily finish off an injured Cavalier with relatively good accuracy (Fire/Wrath Strike), but ultimately Gray is needed to carry the offense. He also has the benefit of ORKOing one of the Archers in Slayde's group when you use him to aggro, which none of the other candidates can do thereby setting your offense back. Honestly, I avoided the Turn 1 aggro because of the reliability issues that you had mentioned regarding Gray's staying power, but regardless I'm fairly confident that he should be the one to lead the charge, so to speak.

I believe that you can at the very least use the Thieve's Shrine wells if you chose to save those, based on the fact that you can go back there to talk to an unrecruited Silque with Celica. No idea what happens if you tried the Deliverance Hideout. I imagine you could, but I've honestly never even tried to re-enter the HQ with Celica.

 

 

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Warping Gray first doesn't seem like the cleverest idea to me. He will literally only be able to counter one enemy - the only cav that attacks him while letting like 4 archers strike him for heavy damage without fear of retaliation. The one cav Gray weakens will likely retreat too, so it's an EP wasted. What I currently have in mind is warping Leather Shield Alm as bait instead, then Warp Gray next turn to start routing, avoiding the archers to the right as much as possible (or actually starting out by killing one). Turnwheel used so early is a waste of time in a map where hit rates introduce such levels of reliability, too. 

12 mag on Silque is what you need to start Warping without a dedicated Swapper, but 14 mag allows Silque to Warp the first bloke without any support. That's as much mag as she can get without wells if she procs the stat every level-up prior to Warp. Mine happens to have as much, but I still need to decide what to do with the well boosts. Still have +3 str/mag and +1 spd left to utilise, and doing so prior to chapter 1 end could be wise. 

Somebody like Kliff could probably really appreciate the +3 str. 

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Hmm this seems like the first time we have a very different approach here. When warping Gray first, you would indeed kill an Archer first because sending him right into the fray has issues that we both seem to agree on. He definitely kills an Archer when he aggros though. For whatever reason, when placed in a certain way one of the northern two will always attack at 2 range and die on the counter, giving you one less enemy to chase down later. I see the benefits of what you're suggesting though, so I'm interested to see how your 1-7 turns out.

Using some on Kliff is definitely not a bad idea. He'll mostly be competitive with his Sniper bases that way, albeit with 2 less effective range. From my own experiences, Archer!Kliff really wants a little something extra going into Act 3 if he's to stay relevant. 

 

 

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Gray will want to be exposed to all the enemies sooner or later as he's the only one who deals with them effectively, Alm being a distant second. In an LTC, sooner is better for turn counts but not reliability of survival. I ended up making shield!Clive my tank bait. He's not doubled by the cavs (unlike Tobin) and has very respectable bulk. Most enemies just deal 1 dmg to him, the boss dealing 3x2. 

I Warp Clive first, then Gray to start routing, then Alm for support and also so that Gray can eat/drink from the Convoy while staying in enemies' range. I guess maybe having lower defence on Gray is a better idea? We do want enemies to keep hitting him.

It seems like the main difficulty with achieving something like a 6-turn, aside from having the RNG of your dreams, is reaching the further enemies, namely the two archers and AK in the north (my current plan is to have Alm and Gray trade the Lightning Sword, but the AK is still a 2RKO without  crits) and the lone soldier close to the group of archers to the right. Even if Claire flies there when it's safe and Clive can maneuver his way as well, he's pretty hard to take down with most of your army. 

Already starting to hate this map with everything having +20 avoid when facing already imperfect hit rates. 

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6 Turns seems incredibly ambitious. 7 Turns is already hellacious, for most of the same reasons (albeit with a bit more leeway), but 6 Turns...yikes. You'd need the patience of a saint, and luck to match. Nothing but respect if you can pull that off.

On the defense point: since damage dealt seems to be the largest/only(?) factor in who the enemy will target, Gray will surely want lower DEF than everyone in the immediate area. In theory, the ideal number would be 6 DEF so that Slayde would target Gray over Alm/Clive in your setup, while maximizing Gray's bulk.

If you can lure the Soldier to the wall with Clair, it should be easy enough to take him out, but if you impose a 6 Turn limit I can't see it. I forget, can Python and Kliff both attack the Soldier at the same time? You might be able to chip him down enough so that Clair can 2RKO by herself. If not, Kliff with 11+3 ATK and Clair with 9+4 ATK should be able to do it as well, RNG willing. 

If you could somehow cutoff weakened Cavs from reaching the healing tiles that might help as well. Gray will need to heal sooner or later, and if even a single Cav gets away the run is pretty much hosed. I'm not sure it works out positioning wise, but if you could make it work then you'd be able to get a lot more done on EP. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I can confirm the Thieves' Shrine for Celica. I didn't quite understand how wells worked at first, so I only took two sips with Alm's group (mistakenly thought each was a one-time-use deal). Was messing around going back in there with Celica later and I was able to give the unused sip to someone in her group.

Didn't check the Deliverance Hideout, but given that I was able to enter the Southern Fort and mess around in there, I can't see why she couldn't poke around the Hideout.

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I figure I'll give my input with LTCing game as well; my caveat is that I allowed non-grinding DLC that added game content (i.e. Rise of the Deliverance and Cipher and the free Mila blessing 1-5); I know it's kind of arbitrary, I listed those turns as well, but it made the game feel more complete and are strategic in their own right.

That said, the boots, village forking a rigged Mae to pegasus knight, and 5 gold to Celica (to super forge a killer bow which saves time grinding sea shrine in chapter 3) with Shade's Rescue for chapter 4 and 5 as well as getting Randel and Emma at chapter 3 might break the game. Yuzu adds an extra healer to Celica's side early doesn't hurt. Though the 5 gold just cuts down on grinding.

Unfortunately the benchmarks in this game are really strict so even with all the stuff the game gives you, level up rigging is necessary especially for 1-7.

My turn-counts are:

RoD1: 6 turns (Need to get lucky and reach Slayde with Clive by Turn 2; Clive can solo the right side with some assistance from one of the cavalier if his javelin gets traded for bread; Fernand and the other blue units can deal with the north side and reinforcements; javelin is helpful for countering the mage with fernand who can double and has decent resistance)

RoD2: 10 turns (reward completely not helpful, but nice story; minimum turn count if you count spaces needed for lukas to rescue the right soldier and retreat)

1-1: 2 Turns; with Fernand's lance, managed to get Kliff 1 kill and Faye 2, the last 3 went to Tobin to level up speed. Can be done without FL, but less reliably because Kliff wouldn't get a kill if the last brigand goes for Faye (not sure what affects this).  I ended up getting Fernand's Lance before 1-1 which added reliability for feeding Kliff and Faye kills since Lukas can now chip brigand down to 4 HP and let Gray block off the village. Theoretically, this allows either Kliff or Faye to promote at Thief Shrine.

1-2: 3 Turns; baited the archer with Kliff. Alm and Tobin went north (so that if the brigand on the rightmost side blocked Alm's path, Tobin can eliminate it). Lukas weakens the archer so Kliff levels up Speed and Defense and Faye got a random kill to level up to Level 2 (+str). Tobin got 2 kills to get +Speed again. Alm got +str (and Speed/Def) to one turn TS with a crit. Lukas got +1 Speed which is helpful for reliability in 1-4, but not necessary. I went with mercenary Kliff because on top of having to rig Silque for magic every level, Kliff's speed and defense growths are more reliable for 1-7. Benchmarks are mercenary with 13 speed to double Desaix and 9 Defense to not need to be healed the entire map; Kliff's 8 base resistance helps him tank the mage well and counter with the lightning sword.  

TS: 1 Turn; Silque got +2 Speed. Tobin promoted to 8 speed mage for 1-4 and Gray promoted to Mercenary. The rest of the game becomes more reliable since hit rates are less an issue with Mila's turnwheel, especially since Celica gets 5 uses in her chapter.

TS Skirmish: 1 Turn; ended up deciding to take this extra turn to add reliability later. Pull 6 brigands to appear on the left side. Allowed Kliff (+Def) and Faye (+Def) to reach level 3. Silque and Gray and ended at 1.99 with 3 kills. Kliff promotes to mercenary (archer doesn't save turns in chapter 1) and Faye to cleric. Faye gets the remaining speed. Alm keeps getting +str, speed, and defense. Due to this extra skirmish, the Fernand's lance doesn't actually save turns, it just makes 1-1 and 1-2 less of a headache and makes it easier to feed Silque the level 3 brigand (so she doesn't have to connect both hits). This also helped get Silque to warp in time since I couldn't quite figure out the Exp allocation as tightly as I would have liked.

1-3: 5 turns; Tobin went through the mountain to kill the mercenary. Fed Silque the boss kill and she reached level 3.81 with +1 strength and +2 speed. Gray leveled to 3 as well and Kliff was at 1.99 at the end.

1-4: 4 turns; Silque had enough speed to double everything so she took the right side to weaken the steel bow archer and soldier coming from the right. Tobin with 8 speed severely weakens the initial soldier on turn 2 and both soldiers that attack him on enemy phase and baits the soldier out of Alm's way to bait the boss for the 4 turn clear. Faye and Gray pick up a kill for a level (+strength) from the soldier's that Tobin weakened; Lukas weakens the archer for Kliff to take the kill. Silque starts working on the steel bow archer on turn 3 while Tobin works on the soldier on the left side. On enemy phase the soldier on the right side gets weakened by Silque and the boss is brought to almost half HP by Alm. On turn 4, weakens the boss to take the kill, Faye finishes off the steel bow archer and Kliff or Gray finishes off the soldier that Silque weakened and Tobin kills the last soldier. Silque is at level 5 at this point and has 11 magic. Kliff is 2.99 with 11 spd/6 defense. Alm is level 3 with 12 strength, 8 speed, and 7 defense.

1-5: 3 turns; Fed Slique enough kills to reach level ~6.30 (2 soldiers and the boss). Gray leveled to 4 here as well. Kliff was fed 2 soldiers, 1 archer, and 2 cavalier and leveled to 4.62. Faye got a kill as well and hit level 3. Silque is at 12 str and 10 speed (which was not necessary, but nice for reliability). Kliff has 12 speed/7 defense. Gray has 11 speed and 4 Defense. Started to try to get swap on Tobin.

1-6: 5 turns; baited the boss and another cavalier with Alm on turn 4 while Silque tanked the other two on enemy phase. Silque accumulated enough exp at this point to only need 2 cavalier kills and some exp from healing and enemy phase combat at every opportunity possible. Kliff took the boss kill and 3 cavaliers. Gray, Alm, and Faye took what they can get.

Tobin is one hit away from swap

Silque reached 7 for Warp with 13 str; she was then given 3 str for 8 range warp

Kliff reached 6 for 13 speed (very important to double Slayde) and 9 defense (helpful for survival since Faye doesn't have physics yet)

Gray is level 4 with 12 strength, 11 speed, and 4 defense (unfortunately; ideally he'd have 5 or 6) 

Alm is level 4 with 13 strength, 9 Speed

Faye is level 3.99

1-7: 6 turns; Warp Kliff upwards and he kills one of the archers on the right side. Move Tobin and Clair leftward to deal with archers on the right side; ideally Clair gets a speed level. Python, Lukas, and Forsyth head the long way on the right side to bait the archer that Kliff didn't kill on turn 3 and weaken the soldier there as well for someone to kill eventually. Turn 2, I warped Alm in to provide 5 Hit and 3 Crit for Kliff just in case I needed to get lucky. There is one space that forces one of the archers to attack Kliff from 2 range if he moves upward a bit; ideally he would one hit some of the cavaliers once so that they won't retreat. Turn 3, warp Gray in, have Kliff weaken Slayde and have Gray trade for the lightning sword and grab the kill. Since Gray has the worst defense between Alm and Kliff, all the cavalier's will attack him; the ones that Kliff hit to 15HP can suicide on him. My Gray could take 3 hits without dying. The iron bow archer prioritized Python for some reason and was chipped down to low HP. Clair and Tobin kept working on the archers on the left side the rest of the battle. Faye was warped up turn 4 to heal Gray. Alm and Python helped clean up some of the weakened cavaliers and Gray healed up, Kliff moved into position upward. Turn 4 enemy phase had Kliff bait the mage, the knight, 2 archers, and the sole cavalier that retreated, he only managed to kill the cavalier. One of the cavalier attacked Python which brought him in range for Clair, Lukas, Forsyth to gang up on. Turn 5, Clive was warped in and helped Gray, Python, and Alm clean up remaining rabble and start baiting that soldier on the far right side; Faye managed to kill the archer that kept attacking Python through the wall. Kliff killed the knight and baited the mage to suicide on him on enemy phase. Turn 6 was just dealing with the 4 enemies still remaining 2 archers, 1 soldier, and 1 weakened cavalier. 

Ended with Faye reaching level 5, Kliff reaching level 8, and Alm level 5. Level up didn't matter since I would have Emma and Randel to carry through. Gray reached level 6.60; Tobin reached level 3 with 9 strength, and speed which is helpful for the cipher DLC.

Cipher DLC 1:  4 turns; Promoted Kliff can solo the top left side to deal with the distant mage and paladin reinforcement with thunder sword and can be warped up there by turn 2 with 16 str Silque. Faye reached level 6 for physics, Forsyth helped set up enough kills for Gray to reach level 7. The mages on the lower left could be soloed with Silque and Python with 1 speed proc reliably. Clive rushed upward to bait the mage attacking Randel close enough for Alm, Clair, Tobin, and Faye to take out by turn 4 before reinforcements force another 2 turns to be taken. 

Kliff ended up a level 3.99 Myrm with 13 defense. Python proc'd 2 speed. Emma and Randel look like they're game breaking for chapter 3 so yeah...end up abusing the thief shrine for the silvers so I can consider not backtracking and proc reinforcements in chapter 3 since I didn't give.

----

For chapter 2: I grab Clair's lance to improve reliability on the zombie dragon and mage boat map; Lukas shield is helpful for a second swap/early work on shove. Boots went to Celica to 5 turn the pirate fort and make 4 turning the cantor boat more reliable and helps her snowball faster for necessary benchmarks. 

+1 Speed for Celica (needs 8 by Pirate for the 5 turn clear); +1 Speed for Genny (reliability in nosferatu tanking pirate fort-need 7 speed); +1 Speed for Mae to more reliably double the cantor with fire (needs 10 speed).

Graveyard: 4

Boat 1-3

Boat 2-4

Pirate Fort-5

Cantor boat-4

Zombie Dragon-3; +2 Res went to Celica to help with her final map; +3 Skill went to Celica to help with opportunistic critical

Boat 4-3

Mage boat-3 (probably want Leon to get +1 str at this point to help with reliability on baiting the boss)

*Leon, Saber, and Kamui are barely able to promote with help with the 2 exp shrines at this point (tried to rig 2 speed levels for Leon and as much strength as possible for mercenaries)

Conrad map-3 (needs Celica to have thunder +12 speed at some point in this map or rig a critical kill with Saber on the boss)

Celica reaches level 9 usually, Genny and Mae usually end at level 6-7, Boey at 3 for thunder. Ideally, Mae and Genny reach physic and Aura with better Exp allocation somehow. I still have the golden apple to mess around with as well..

I'm not sure when to recruit Shade and Yuzu, but ideally earlier so I can start working on Rescue for Celica's maps. Might have to pick up Palla and Catria first though. A very rigged Pegasus!Mae can have up to 14-16 str and 14-15 speed without costing chapter 2 turns...which might be enough to shave some turns in chapter 3 and 4 (theorycrafting); doing an extra 9 thief shrine skirmish might be worth it in this case if Saber, Kamui, and Leon don't reach promotion d/t losing out on EXP. Especially in Cipher 2, Archer fort (7 turns), Sonya/Deen map (5 turns; Sonya's map might be faster...not sure), Gieth fort-9 turns, and Mila temple (6 turns).

 

Thoughts? 

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28 minutes ago, Art_Dealer said:

Thoughts? 

I actually like the way how you explained it all. Merc Kliff really seems worth while, but the additional 17 turns in Act1 aren't. At WORST, you could potentially go crazy. Make sure that Kliff gets two kills in 1-1. This does require a critical hit from him, which is actually quite painful, especially since we also want to gain +1 speed for Tobin. BUT, if that would be possible (it is, just very painful), that seems like a big win. Kliff still needs to gain +2 speed in 1-2 and get to level 3. Which is also possible, much easier I guess, I mean, Faye can, as I have done it more then once before.

Maybe Gray can go cav then, but another merc might be okay. Do you think that without extra turns, it would be possible to reach lv7 with the Merc before 1-7? If so, you could promote, which would add plenty of stats (for free). I also feel like perma-dropping a villager before the end of Act1 right now. The EXP would be "lost" anyway and just chipping to help out would be enough I guess.

Losing out on Lukas earlier also doesn't seem like the biggest loss. Though his bulk might come in handy for some battles later on.

Basically I just try to find some "easy" ways to become (much) stronger at an earlier point.

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1 hour ago, SSJDennis said:

I actually like the way how you explained it all. Merc Kliff really seems worth while, but the additional 17 turns in Act1 aren't. At WORST, you could potentially go crazy. Make sure that Kliff gets two kills in 1-1. This does require a critical hit from him, which is actually quite painful, especially since we also want to gain +1 speed for Tobin. BUT, if that would be possible (it is, just very painful), that seems like a big win. Kliff still needs to gain +2 speed in 1-2 and get to level 3. Which is also possible, much easier I guess, I mean, Faye can, as I have done it more then once before.

Maybe Gray can go cav then, but another merc might be okay. Do you think that without extra turns, it would be possible to reach lv7 with the Merc before 1-7? If so, you could promote, which would add plenty of stats (for free). I also feel like perma-dropping a villager before the end of Act1 right now. The EXP would be "lost" anyway and just chipping to help out would be enough I guess.

Losing out on Lukas earlier also doesn't seem like the biggest loss. Though his bulk might come in handy for some battles later on.

Basically I just try to find some "easy" ways to become (much) stronger at an earlier point.

You actually only lose 1 turn in Act 1 not 17. The strat for getting 1 kill for both Kliff and Faye is just as good for getting them to level 3 before 1-3 if you take the TS skirmish w/o Fernand's lance. You can definitely do 1-1 in 2 turns without FL as was already posted...but let's say you get that coveted +spd on Tobin and then Kliff misses the ~90 or the second brigand goes for Faye again. Then it's another reset. With FL, the chapter will go the same way barring ALM stealing EXP with a crit. Kliff and Faye can both reach level 2 with one kill each on 1-2; BXP from Post 1-2 and thief shrine bring them to level 1 kill from level 3. In 1-2, you can use Tobin to weaken the archer after Gray brings it down to half health for Kliff to be fed the kill instead of Lukas, the only issue is that you just have to hope that the rightmost brigand attacks Alm from the right instead of above. Pull then pull 6 brigands in TS for both of them to reach level 3 (they need one kill each) with a side benefit of taking pressure off leveling Silque.

I don't think a level 7 Merc before 1-7 is possible while getting Silk to Level 7. Though it might be possible to get Gray there if you take the TS skirmish and you neglect Kliff instead (Kliff and Gray would switch roles for my 1-7 strat). Though Gray's growth's are not ideal at all and you'd have to rig more dodges when he baits the cavaliers and he takes 6 more damage from the mage (you need 3 speed procs and as many defense procs as possible). You can also just go with mercenary Kliff who might start at level 5 instead by 1-7 (it's just rigging defense and speed is already enough of a pain even with Kliff's good growth's of 65%/35% let along hope for Slique to get Str 40% and Alm to get good levels as well; Gray has 35%/20% which I believed is just unworkable as a mercenary). I think Kliff and Faye promoting one chapter earlier is worth 1 turn lost personally, while still letting you get 2 myrmidons before chapter 3 easily.

A second Merc line is pretty helpful at times probably. You can get one to dread fighter before Tatara and another sometime in chapter 4 to help do side objectives. I personally invest more into Kliff first before Gray because his growths are easier to rig than Gray's are and has better base resistance, especially since chapter 3 is just helpful to have more competent units. If I allocated EXP a bit better both Kliff and Gray can promote after 1-7. 

Otherwise, I suspect early Randal and Emma might just make up for the 4 turns they costs during chapter 3, 4, 5, since they are just optional as Tatiana and Zeke, but I've done Alm's side chapter 3 without them already and just wanted to see if they are game changers.

 

Once again the rise of the deliverance chapter rewards don't save any turns and are strictly done because I wanted to see how they can be LTC'd as well (you have to use preset teams anyway; and the side objectives are actually kind of fun/challenging and well put together) and serve as additional "story maps"-kind of like an extended prologue.

The rewards I figured were fair games, but you can do the same strategies without them (python's bow and clive's lance for example are at best filler; Fernand's lance doesn't save any turns just adds reliability for 1-1 and 1-2 and TS skirmish to feed kills, but can be replicated without easily and then becomes filler. Clair's lance is helpful to weaken kills for your Mercenaries in a few maps in chapter 2, it's also useful in Mila's shrine so Catria doesn't have to dodge both Mire and the Sniper, but they both have ~70% hit so it doesn't really change much). But I've done the game without them before as well, so they aren't really tools to save turns IMO. 

Without Lukas' shield/Clive lance you'd definitely want to save both the iron shield/steel lance in Zofia castle for Celica so they have it for an extra 2 chapters to get shove faster.

Edited by Art_Dealer
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Good effort! Apparently taking an extra turn once can result in a very different run entirely, though you also have different rules from my playthrough. I take it you're going to allow coin farming as well? I imagine I will opt against it despite the poll's results.

I freaked out when I saw Kliff's speed stat, then I realised he's a Merc in your run and not an Archer lol. Will Python really be competent when you need him to in chapter 3? I also keep considering double archers for later chapters; not sure how plausible giving both sufficient experience will be. 

Doesn't Celica get enough shields anyway? I figure you may want to keep some in Alm's party and just trade them to Celica when/if they're needed. 

I haven't got a clue how people's Fayes are getting so much experience. Don't think mine has levelled up even once prior to 1-7; then again, she didn't promote until after 1-4 on my present run... 

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So on Alm's chapter 3, archer's speed benchmark's aren't super high. They mainly just need to be able to double the mages and archers that no one else can counter, that usually ends up having 4-6AS as the chapter progresses; usually Python just barely passes these benchmarks, but it's rarely a deal-breaker if he fails; it's not too bad to rig his 50% Spd growth as necessary though.  Double archer's should be viable, they will promote by forest shrine and then chapter 4. There is plenty of EXP to go around especially in 3-2 (mage forest map). However, you definitely want to get Faye to Rescue during chapter 3 as well, ideally by Tatara's map at the absolute latest due to how enemies won't aggro and are uncounterable except by archers (who die in 1-2 hits) so you probably want to fish for dread fighter critical hits on the boss.

For silver farming I arbitrarily did enough until I had enough to get the tools I needed to complete chapter 3 efficiently (e.g. about 100 silver+100 or so from food/ale farmed from the thief shrine). Going nuts I'd aim for maybe 300 silver pieces between food items/silver pieces. So even if you take it to extremes with a maxed out killer bow and thunder sword as soon as you hit forest village, you still have to deal with the fact your movement is limited by Slique's warp range and your archer and Mercenary can only take so many enemy phase hits. So I think it's important to recognize that the lowest possible turncount is still capped by movement limitations and manipulation of enemy AI.

For forges, the first visit to the forest village I prioritized upgrading the iron bow since it has 2 weight and high hit. The rest of the money went into upgrading the steel sword 2 stars for the raw might (to be turned into zweihandler for tigerstance lategame on the return visit); if there's enough silver to make it into a brave sword that's of course useful as well (and then later a rapier). I also eventually turn a steel lance into a javelin, though that isn't high priority until Tatara's map, because 1-2 range is kind of important. Upgrading the riderbane is of course also important. I just grinded enough silver to get these things. IDK if there is a better way to prioritize. A killer bow is a heavy investment that I believe can wait until the end of ACT 3 since python won't be able to double with it anyway since it brings his AS to 0 at base (which is where a very rigged archer!Kliff might be better).

A big part of chapter 3 gets into finding clever ways to get Faye to level 10 to rescues ASAP so it's there when needed. She's actually a good candidate to get warped in desaix's map since the armor knights have low resistance and base speed. Her good base defense over Silque and somewhat reliable Nosferatu from Alm support is really helpful in training her. Shove and swap isn't AS important on Alm's side, because Silque and Faye can warp and rescue each other and other units.

My thought process in giving more shield's to Celica's side was that since Alm has Warp and Rescue, the extra iron shield gives another shove to the group; since shove takes 10sp, it's kind of important to have enough time to develop it. Having two swap/shove with Boey and Mae I believe saved 1 turn in each of the desert maps and 1 turn in Mila's temple since my primary strategy ended up just being have Saber destroy everything with a brave sword.

For chapter 2:

I'm also more seriously considering turning Mae into a pegasus this run now to see if it can actually lower the turncount for Act 3 and 4, however, I'm also worried that getting her there will cost Kamui promoting by the end of Act 2. Since I'll have to prioritize Mae>Saber>Leon>Kamui>Celica>Genny (I'll probably have to give up on getting Genny to physics by chapter 3 as well). Even moreso having to rig Mae's stats to make it worth it to begin with is a massive pain (though her offensive growths are very solid at 65%/45% for mage; 60%/40% for villager; 55%/45% pegasus); I'm tempted to see if I can get away with not giving Genny that speed well in the priory so Mae can get a second one; villager/pegasus Mae with 13/13 attack/speed can basically 1RKO almost every enemy on the boat map immediately after the seashrine. She ends up getting most of the initial pirates anyway since only Celicia even has the potential offenses at that point to 1RKO pirates on enemy phase (13 attack +4 from steel sword). I feel like I hit a wall with Celica's chapter 3/4 maps because the pace often becomes how fast can I get Saber to the most distant enemy since no other unit in her map really has any enemy phase presence (Catria and Palla get doubled by the actually threatening enemy sword users and their base durability is not good except against witches Catria) so maybe an overpowered flier is the answer to the lack of warp on her maps.

If not, Mae just becomes a shove/swapbot for the rest of chapter 3/4 and occasionally chipping at enemies for the pegasus sisters to kill. Which MIGHT be a missed opportunity with her bases/growths.

Celica route forges  chapter 3 include the blessed lance, the possibility of killer bow and saunion if I consider the free 5 gold to be "time saved" from hours of farming (i.e. 2500 silver or 500 silver). If I end up taking Deen's route, I'd have to have a forged brave sword because it's almost vital for grieth's fort.

Edited by Art_Dealer
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Double archers is pretty much the only way to go. Unless you run tripple archers.

Double Iron shield is basicly required in Celica's side unless you somehow build rescue Atlas. Sometimes you need to build more than one swapshove train. You want to loot the steel lance and enough random crap to build the killer bow before desert fort as well if you skip coral frags.

For clarity. My strat to pump Faye involves letting her orko 6 bandits in a completely unessecary fight in cave gaining 1.99 levels (silque takes 3 for warp on 1-6) this shaves on 1-6 (warp) and 1-7 (12 speed nos) for a net gain of 1 turn under optimal conditions. That said the chance of getting a xl2.7+ Faye in 1-1 in 2 turns is awful so I settle for a 3 turn safe clear. I also drop a turn in 1-3 or 1-4 for the same conveniance for +1 total in act 1. The shaving gets real in act 3 though, and nobody else runs villager route, so I'm comfortable with the loss.

 In normal merc routing 3-1 is made of armor, so mage exp is real and 3-2 is also very polite to any unit with 1-2+ range. Promoted units give a crapton of exp here so your archers, faye, and tobin will inflate outragously.

To answer the earlier Delthea pondering you can pump her to 20 res and +5atk+3spd to do serious work in her join chapter she promotes suprisingly quickly and the gains from that + every bulk booster lets her do some silly things in act 4 and 5.

Edited by joshcja
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Everyone in this thread has very serious claims to make wrt an LTC in this game, it seems.

I guess it's true that Silque handles movement in Alm's route much better than any any shield would. Since Alm does have frail casters though, it is nevertheless a good idea to have some shields there, such as the ones that don't grant any useful skills. 

Whether Atlas can get to Rescue at all without slowing the player down is a difficult question. Xator Nova says Atlas's early access to the spell can be ensured by feeding him the experience wells in Act 3 onward, which has the implication of postponing Palla's promotion. As important as this is for consideration, Palla's promotion doesn't really improve her offence against non-terror enemies all that much, though she will be able to take more punishment and move further on the map. 

Art Dealer, you say that Killer Bow forging can wait until the archer in question is agile enough to double with it, but there is plenty of motivation to start using it as soon as possible. 20 rounds of combat are necessary to access Hunter's Volley and the sooner you access it the more your sniper will snowball in their growth because we're looking at a very respectable, somewhat luck-reliant form of offence there.

You are saying two Dread Fighters is the key on Alm's route, but they can't really have a good enemy phase against ranged fighters and they will probably only have 1 Rapier to use unless you sacrifice another one of your weapons, or if you have essentially unlimited cash to go from every Iron Sword to a Rapier. If one DF is using a Rapier/Brave Sword, what does that leave to the other? Meanwhile, Kamui and Saber need to be well-equipped for their Celica's route maps.

Zweihänder is a weapon I haven't actually considered, but the ability that adds skill to attack power is worth looking into. A freshly promoted DF Gray has around 16 skl on average so that's 16 damage we're adding to attack right there. However, I have to wonder if PP-restricted form of offence justifies choosing this over, say, a Brave Sword if we want to ORKO in more situations. The pro I see here is bulky enemies and low% critblicking of hard-to-take-down bosses and Brave Sword skills being largely impotent, much like Rapier ones - well, I guess the weapon is good enough?

Warping Faye in Desaix's map, hmmm... I don't think a 2 AS Faye would be able to do anything useful there. I better start feeding her kills in Act 3; hopefully, the maps there will be RNG-friendly enough to allow feasible resetting for decent level-ups. 

Delthea is obviously getting used, but the specifics are up for debate. She could either contribute heavy chip for other units to grab kills or she could have the same done to her. Magekilling with her is a good idea; however, she won't be able to counter the 3-range Arcanists the game likes to throw at you sometimes. I also imagine going Merc with Kliff makes Python's handling of mages pretty dangerous - he would need to dodge their attacks. 

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So for chapter 3, I'm starting to get the impression there are multiple ways to approach. The issue is there's no way to know for sure which works best/with the lowest turns without research by doing the chapters themselves with the different strategies, which I guess is the purpose of the thread to bounce around some ideas. For Alm's side I prefer having rings on the healers so that they can use Warp and Rescue every turn without having to waste a turn for healing/eating food. Worst comes to worst, you still have the leather shield and the (rusted) steel shield. Faye usually has enough of a durability lead that that leather shield is plenty when you're not using it for swap on someone less useful.

Joshca, could you please post your turncount total for each map (especially chapter 3)? It could be helpful to help decide a baseline for optimal LTC playthrough turncounts by chapter/Acts to determine the best exp allocation; please include turns put into skirmishes as well. :):

The problem I had in chapter 1 with archer Kliff (or any villager archer) was he didn't have the speed or power to snowball and get the stats necessary to contribute much for 1-7 since silque has to take too much exp. However, if you are able to get him enough levels, I can see him being useful for killer bow use in chapter 3.

To clarify, I've only talked about the forge's I've done before, and I don't want to claim them to be optimal, since I personally am still trying to theorycraft what to optimally do. Last time I attempted to LTC chapter 3, I didn't go all in on a killer bow and rapier. Personally, I'm not fully convinced that the rapier is worth it in chapter 3. Chapter 4, you can turn Celica's shadow sword/brave sword into a rapier if needed. Lightning sword and especially the third skill is enough to 2RKO all the enemies that need to be assassinated. I don't disagree that early killer bow could be a good idea, Python without rigging won't have the necessary speed to double with it, but Kliff might be able to. A killerbow is definitely a good idea earlier (my iron bow idea was just a cost efficient choice), you probably won't have the money to get one without SOME silver grinding though.

Only 1 dreadfighter is necessary for later chapters in Act 3; especially Tatara's map where magic deals heavy damage to everyone. A second one is helpful because dreadfighters are helpful in general, but probably won't promote til chapter 4.

I'm not sure about Rescue Atlas, but if Shade ends up working out, then I'm sure it could be useful in a non-DLC run. I'm more convinced a rigged pegasus!Mae might be the biggest key investment for Celica's maps at this point. 

Kliff as a dreadfighter with the lightning sword, cleared the Tatara room; Python was not needed as much there. That chapter was done in 4 turns, but I'll have to redo it to remember the exact strategy. It did require Faye to have Rescue at that point though.

I'll post my chapter 3 turncounts once I get there again in my most recent playthrough. I have a list, but it's unclear what chapters are the actual chapters and which ones are skirmishes so we can have a baseline to compare. I don't claim my methods are the optimal for LTC, but the only way to figure them out is with verifiable data and turncounts that are associated with the strategies that are being used.

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There are cavs though, and armours, Gray and/or Alm using the Rapier to fight them would be good for somebody with a 2 AS Faye like moi. 

The Lightning Sword 7HKOs Tatarrah, and he's not terribly easy to connect an attack on from what I remember. I guess you had learnt the second skill by then and used it twice on enemy phase? Don't see another explanation. 

According to Shephen, selling everything Alm has got aside from the things you absolutely need gives you enough money for... a rapier and a killer bow, maybe something else too? 

3-6 is a map that could require a super strong sniper who can wield the killer bow, with the bow knight boss and multiple snipers. You need 27 Mt to 2HKO them, or 18 Mt to 4HKO with one hit + one crit, which is plausible and actually achieved by base archer Kliff if you have a Killer Bow+3 (2 Gold required, +5 strength procs otherwise). You'd need 10 AS to double everything on the map, or 7 AS to double all non-boss enemies (probably can't Hunter Volley him this early though). 

Have you made any useful observations regarding manipulating skirmish enemies to, well, engage you less frequently? If we're counting those turns, which we should, we should minimize our exposure to them. A bit sad you can't just choose to never meet them entirely, which is easy to achieve in Sacred Stones and to a lesser extent TRS. 

And I do believe an LTC run should skip on Celica's first Act 2 Dracozombie encounter. This robs you of Seabound Shrine access, meaning no Blessed Sword ever in the game? Could be a big loss to endure. That map sounds terribly problematic to do without the DLC stuff you talked about; don't think Celica can even get to Angel when playing that fast (I imagine Mae is frontlining because her EP counters don't suck?) and once she does she still doesn't exactly faceroll the dracozombies in 1 turn or anything. 

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5 hours ago, Espinosa said:

Warping Faye in Desaix's map, hmmm... I don't think a 2 AS Faye would be able to do anything useful there. I better start feeding her kills in Act 3; hopefully, the maps there will be RNG-friendly enough to allow feasible resetting for decent level-ups. 

Thinking on it, I'm pretty convinced that it will be very difficult if not impossible to take Faye from where you have her (Level 2 at the end of 1-7, if I understand correctly?) to Level 10 by Tartara in Alm 3-F without going far out of your way to do it. Breaking it down:

Spoiler

 

3-1 gives her some opportunity for EXP; Witches in particular are essentially a free level

Same for 3-2, and Arcanists give good EXP. Her combat against them is pretty bad though, so she'll need to pick up kills where she can and stay out of the way on EP

3-3 Ends in a turn

3-4 is Desaix, where she can in theory contribute against the Armor Knights. She may even be able to kill Desaix, which would help pretty significantly, though I'm not sure how far out of your way you'd have to go in order to do that since there are better ways of handling this map, as was noted

3-5 is a Mathilda/Clair/Other Ridersbane/Rapier user stomp. In a perfect run, it can end in 2 Turns IIRC, depending of course on where you're willing to draw the line in terms of reliability. It doesn't leave much for Faye to do, regardless

3-6 every enemy outranges her and can deal a significant amount of damage, bar one enemy Witch with Fire

 

Getting Faye to Rescue before 3-F does indeed result in a time save for 3-F as was mentioned, so you'd want to get that if at all possible. It also goes without saying that spending some of those high EXP yielding enemies on Faye hurts your other units as well. She does have the benefit of gaining more EXP in your case, due to a lower level, but on paper this sounds a lot like raising Silque to Level 7 by 1-F, only without the bonus of a good Enemy Phase.

I don't think that getting the Killer Bow during Act 3 Alm is feasible without Silver Grinding. You need 2 of Mathilda/Clair/Gray/Other Anti-Horse Unit to have the ability to ORKO Act 3 Cavs, especially for 3-5, and that alone drains most of the Silver you have available. Complicating things further, you'll need the Ridersbane powered up going into Act 4. I'm still playing around with Act 3, so I can't personally say whether or not it's possible to do all of the above, and forge a Killer Bow going into Act 4, though with all the Silver Purse drops it should be just barely possible. 

3 hours ago, Art_Dealer said:

The problem I had in chapter 1 with archer Kliff (or any villager archer) was he didn't have the speed or power to snowball and get the stats necessary to contribute much for 1-7 since silque has to take too much exp. However, if you are able to get him enough levels, I can see him being useful for killer bow use in chapter 3.

FWIW, you can take an Archer!Kliff from ~3.XX to promotion in 1-7, albeit not easily. I was able to bring him in at 3/3.34, with 25 HP 11 ATK 3 SKL 5 SPD 10 LCK 5 DEF 8 RES (Bold=Above Average) as his stats, which resulted in:
 

Spoiler

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This was an 8-Turn, with 7 maaaaaaybe possible if you can somehow squeeze in an extra kill for Kliff somewhere along the way. Assuming that the 7 Turn of this strategy is possible and that the 6 Turn clear that Espinosa theorizes is possible as well, you could very well go into Act 3 with a Level 1 Sniper at the cost of 3 Turns, and only a cost of 2 if you choose to sacrifice Faye's promotion as the OP did. In a run where Silver grinding is allowed, the prospect of a Sniper!Kliff with early Killer Bow sounds very promising on paper. 

Edit: The Cavs on 3-4 are reinforcements, actually. You don't have to fight them there if you force an ambush and clear it in a turn. 

Edit 2: Do you mean skip the Sea Shrine entirely, or just come back for it later? Coming back for it later is fine and probably preferred, but skipping it entirely results in immediate time loss in 2-F. Saber needs to be promoted for the 3 Turn, and Celica needs Seraphim. Skipping the Shrine entirely also means that the likes of Saber, Leon and potentially Kamui (depending on if he was in use to begin with, it's honestly debatable) start Act 3 at a pretty severe disadvantage compared to what they could potentially be. Genny would be alright, but she can also potentially promote at the Sea Shrine, so it's a pretty big loss all in all.

Edited by Deltre
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15 hours ago, Espinosa said:

There are cavs though, and armours, Gray and/or Alm using the Rapier to fight them would be good for somebody with a 2 AS Faye like moi. 

The Lightning Sword 7HKOs Tatarrah, and he's not terribly easy to connect an attack on from what I remember. I guess you had learnt the second skill by then and used it twice on enemy phase? Don't see another explanation. 

According to Shephen, selling everything Alm has got aside from the things you absolutely need gives you enough money for... a rapier and a killer bow, maybe something else too? 

3-6 is a map that could require a super strong sniper who can wield the killer bow, with the bow knight boss and multiple snipers. You need 27 Mt to 2HKO them, or 18 Mt to 4HKO with one hit + one crit, which is plausible and actually achieved by base archer Kliff if you have a Killer Bow+3 (2 Gold required, +5 strength procs otherwise). You'd need 10 AS to double everything on the map, or 7 AS to double all non-boss enemies (probably can't Hunter Volley him this early though). 

Have you made any useful observations regarding manipulating skirmish enemies to, well, engage you less frequently? If we're counting those turns, which we should, we should minimize our exposure to them. A bit sad you can't just choose to never meet them entirely, which is easy to achieve in Sacred Stones and to a lesser extent TRS. 

And I do believe an LTC run should skip on Celica's first Act 2 Dracozombie encounter. This robs you of Seabound Shrine access, meaning no Blessed Sword ever in the game? Could be a big loss to endure. That map sounds terribly problematic to do without the DLC stuff you talked about; don't think Celica can even get to Angel when playing that fast (I imagine Mae is frontlining because her EP counters don't suck?) and once she does she still doesn't exactly faceroll the dracozombies in 1 turn or anything. 

Unfortunately your Faye is in a tough spot. So I'm not sure what to say. If you saved one of the speed lion wells it might be worth giving it to her?

You need at least 4AS to double knights in desaix's fort I think. You can weaken all 3 units on the first map with berkut to low enough HP. Faye can get 3 kills on enemy phase...and there's always the forest shrine wells I guess...

For tatara's map you need to use the lightning sword's second skill twice. He also take a lot of damage from casting death as well. The second skill also adds about 30 hit so it's pretty accurate pretty sure the loss of hp from 2 casts of death and 2 hits from Kliff kills him (Mathilda with javelin can help by hitting through the wall as well). You do need both warp and rescue to reach him in time if you go with this strategy tho. 4 turns might be improvable with a fully forged killer bow.

You need like 400 silver just to get an unmodified killer bow and rapier which isn't worth it (and probably impossible without silver grinding) on your first visit there. Though Backtracking after the forest shrine to get the blessed lance to Celica, picking up the killer bow is probably worthwhile. Definitely, never felt a need for a rapier in chapter 3 since magic deals with knights better and ridersbane deals with horses. Unforged lightning sword will still 2rko knights, just don't expect any critical hits. If you can wait for Celica to finish her side, have her send over the shadow sword which has a very cheap path to rapier.

For 3-6 with 9 (or possibly 8) warp range and a swap on a dreadfighter can reach the bow knight boss on the first turn and KO him the next turn with the second lightning sword skill. The rest of the army basically baited the enemy downward. This map took me 4 turns. That said, a fully forged killer bow is possible at this point due to Alm having 4 gold and backtracking after the forest shrine. I think even python can reach 7 AS with enough rigging since his growths are reasonable to work with. The killer bow strategy might shave at least 1 turn.

no idea on how to rig the skirmishes, but I did alm's side first. Had one skirmish before desaix's map. And two on the way to tatara after backtracking back to the forest village to send celica the blessed lance and forge a javelin for Mathilda. Celica had 2 by the archer fort and another one that joined grieth. On the way to mila's shrine I encountered a cantor spawn and also a paladin spawn. The cantor spawn took 1 turn since I could reach him on turn 1 with my Pegasus knights. The others all took 2 turns. 

For the dragon shrine map you don't need dLC for a 3 turn. Have Celica with rigged strength and steel sword or Mae with at least 7 AS with fire counter the first dragon (which is necessary for the cantor map anyway) Then have celica hit with sephiram, use Leon, mae, and everyone else to chip at the dragon and it should be enough. Make sure you use genny to invoke for an extra point or two of damage from her soldiers.

And yes Mae does end up frontlining for boat maps to clear the bridge. However celica never has trouble getting to level 5 if you make sure she gets all the boss kills in all prior maps. I try to feed the dragon kills to saber and kamui since they both will almost get a level up out of it. Between the golden apple and 2 exp wells. Saber, kamui, and Leon can probably all promote in time as well...barely. Genny can probably catch up eventually, but having her as a saint is pretty helpful in chapter 4 due to expel and having 5 movement.

i concur skipping the sea shrine is a bad idea since you'll be essentially be stuck with at least one of 4 move saber, kamui, and Leon without the speed to double the faster enemies for chapter 3 which is pretty unworkable. Once again. Saber does need to promote by the end of chapter 2 to finish the last map in 3 turns (and he needs to critical the boss or have Celica double with thunder). Blessed sword is a big boon as well and not worth skipping. Kamui might not be worth it, especially if you get Deen. 

Are you thinking of doing Pegasus!Mae at all? Or are you just banning all DLC? I think you mentioned not using villager forks because they costs turns, but I can confirm that it does not cost any turns to reach Pegasus for Mae if you reclass her right after the cantor boat map. 

I'm definitely not convinced by rescue atlas now that I think about it. He won't be getting to mage until just the end of chapter 3 since otherwise he forces 4-8 turns of skirmishs minimum due to backtracking required to promote him. Catria, Palla, Genny, kamui, and Deen if you have him kind of really need those exp fountains and extra golden apples to promote in time as well. Your fliers also kind of suck without promotions since they really want the durability boost. Kamui and Deen (if you have him) really want the extra 2 move.

3-5: you can have Matilda solo the left side with riderbane and and have alm with the royal sword and support from the thunder sword mercenary take the right side if you haven't been neglecting him (have silk warp and someone swap her forward as needed)  I have Clive block the fort so the low hp cavs will suicide on enemy phase. Doable in 3 turns reliably. Possibly 2 with the right tools and well timed critical hits.

 

For Celica' maps, if you forgo Deen, you can probably get a killer bow before archer fort on Leon without losing turns on grieths fort. Granted Leon need to be speed rigged or he has a tendency to die really fast because he'll be getting doubled since a drop in 4 AS is pretty significant for him.

Edited by Art_Dealer
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20 hours ago, Espinosa said:

Everyone in this thread has very serious claims to make wrt an LTC in this game, it seems.

Whether Atlas can get to Rescue at all without slowing the player down is a difficult question. 

Delthea is obviously getting used, but the specifics are up for debate. She could either contribute heavy chip for other units to grab kills or she could have the same done to her. Magekilling with her is a good idea; however, she won't be able to counter the 3-range Arcanists the game likes to throw at you sometimes.

(Not even remotly claiming wrt lol, that said if 6 turns on 1-7 is normal then villager route winds up neutral. I've been assuming 5.)

Atlas cannot get rescue without dropping turns. No idea if it's worth the loss or invest as the one place I'm certain it shave's a turn is Jedah's map and Celica wants ragnarock there.

Delthea has immediate acess to the mage ring. You can also just mail the Iron shield back to Alm if you really need shove once Celica is done with it.

Edited by joshcja
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