FE15 Echoes LTC

[SSJDennis]

So, how is progress going? I had to restart myself, did overwrite the file by accident... I really dislike the few available slots for this game, especially after how we got spoiled in Fates.

I am going to try some minor changes this time around. But getting very bad level ups thus far.

1-1 I will give a kill to Faye, Gray AND Alm. Tobin kills the rest. Tobin needs +1 speed, rest is minor.

1-2 is the new setup. Because of the previous kills, I should get some better, but more fragile results. Gray will barely reach level 6, wanting a +1 atk AND +1 def. Tobin will also barely reach his level up, needing another +1 speed.

Not only that, but Faye wants to crit on turn 1. Because of this she gets to level 2. She wants to gain +1 speed to double and contribute more this chapter. Also a defense or attack gain would be great.

Last, but not least... Alm needs a good level up. Which is most frustrating so far. If I do get lucky, either Faye reaches level 3, or Kliff finds a kill.

Cave battle ends with a Alm crit, I believe that he reaches level 3, because of previous investments? I hope he does...

1-3 makes Kliff and Faye reach level 3, eventually. I got by before with a single fountain speed on Silque, so aiming for it again. In a perfect world, she will gain some speed along the way and ALWAYS gaining attack. I wonder if a cleric Faye can kill the merc, making it more reliable with mage Tobin around at the main group.

1-4 is where Tobin will shine. Silque also gets some kills. Some units should be able to learn swap (Tobin, Faye, Silque and maybe Kliff?).

1-5 is tricky again. If lucky enough, I got enough swappers to reach the middle with Alm with Levin Sword. Hopefully killing most, or severe hurting them.

Next I rush to the cavs, hoping to reach them, while others clean up.

1-6 we need to gain Warp which is barely possible, or it was for me. I swapped Alm pretty forward, so he could charge the Northern cavs. To bad they all survive with 2 hp. But good part, they all went to suicide on Silque next enemy phase.

1-7 is where I got stuck, because of a too slow cav Clive. Shield Tobin wasn't much better XD I did score a Levin crit on Slayde one time, but still missed the 6 turn mark.

I basically warp Shield Clive up, to lure cavs. Turn 2 archer Kliff shines (finally). Killing one archer during player phase, the other on enemy phase. Clive runs, Gray kills the other archer, Clair opens the left gate, giving Clive some fruit to regain HP.

Now I struggle to effectively kills the enemy, or stay alive because I kinda lock myself, or get exposed too much. I guess by turn 5 all but the arcanist should be killed, paired with the upper soldier, who might come in range of Kliff/Python.

I miss the healing power of Faye during the battle. But fruit makes my offense too weak. Faye needs to heal Silque during turn 1 and 2, then potentially she could be warped up, if there was space to move/heal.

Most units ended up around level 3 before. I did neglect Lukas and Clair.

Will Luck become the prime factor here? I am trying to get Gray to 8 def this time around... Not too lucky. Any thoughts?

Best order to warp units? Maybe a big rigged Alm with Levin Sword? Next turn get Tobin in, for crits? I guess Clive can run around, but Gray will practically be useless without Levin Sword... Not even to speak of the level ups we pray for...

Edited July 6, 2017 by SSJDennis

[Espinosa]

Dennis, these all sound like very ambitious objectives to accomplish. Doing the early chapters, I also wanted to get the best out of the best out of every map, but estimating success ratio of everything desired usually spelled out it wasn't going to happen (though as can be seen from my videos sometimes the impossible does happen), which helps you focus on the really important things. Simple example: Tobin getting +str/spd in the 1-1 may be nice, but for Tobin to benefit from the str proc post-promo he needs to proc it again in the following chapter, and there are many other similarly ultimately unlikely variables to consider (namely, Faye, Alm and Gray levels), if you want it all that is. 

One reason why I feel like investing in Kliff is a good idea is all the magekilling, not to mention better hit rates compared to Python. Mine is never going to end up a sniper as early as the 3rd act, but if I get one really strong bow user then it has to be Kliff. I don't think Alm's bow access comes soon enough for him to do anything interesting with a good bow. To be sure, he would have the kind of stats that Kliff and Python generally struggle to get (though none of the range). 

I'm really unsure about Clair - if I end up keeping my 1-6 clear (might go back and re-do for a +def proc with Gray... but I like my other levelups a lot so idk), she will be entering 1-7 with a +str/spd levelup, but is she worth a substantial investment? I just don't see her combat getting good until too many of these good levelups kick in, so she's basically a growth unit like most of Alm's party. There already are good mounted Horseslayer units in Alm's party, so I just wonder if flight is really as good on this route. I didn't mind giving her kills somebody like Lukas would've otherwise claimed, but exp is sparse when skirmishes are avoided and everyone wants it in an LTC run. 

[Espinosa]

Good news: I FINALLY 6-turned 1-7 as planned. It appears that if you play well with the strategy I designed, the reliability is not abysmal, though the issues we predicted would plague the attempts are all relevant enough. 

However, I'm not happy with the level-ups I got. Alm got no strength on his two levels, Kliff got defence, Tobin got nothing worthwhile. At least Gray's levels were fine (he got three and reached Myrmidon promotion) and Faye got +str, which will help her get more kills later (+spd/def would help make her a viable combat unit though).

The good thing about the clear (other than the turn count) is that I don't waste many healing items in the process. Some of the old clears I had (which failed ultimately) had Gray use up both of my Mana Herbs in the convoy.

So I'll probably have some more goes at the map until I'm happy enough to advance (or so dissatisfied with the new ones that I'll stick to the first successful 6-turn attempt). Before I finish map 1-7, I have to agree on a number of things, namely if anybody in Alm's party will be getting the remaining well boosts (+1 spd, +3 str/def remain to be used) and if I will allow myself to pick up coins from the ground, in which event I should start farming them for all future non-gold forges before I switch to Celica's party.

Naturally, I've also been doing some longterm planning and theoryFEing. The new changes in tier list thinking are interesting imho. Clive is considered better than Mathilda? My Clive didn't level-up during 1-7 (it was too fast of a clear to feed him too many kills) and is imho unlikely to get better than Math at the speed an LTC run progresses. 

I also wonder what to do with Dread Fighters once they promote. Staying in the class is not an unintelligent choice since you keep swords, and with it whatever sword skills you may have learnt (silver sword/brave sword skills can be useful for one-shotting bulky bosses), but there are other options too. I've seen Cav as a potential option, but I wonder if Archer is workable as well, Bow Knight obviously being the desired end result of the sacrifice. Of course, Saber and Gray are the only units who even have the option under efficiency settings. 

[Carmine Sword]

The thing to keep in mind about the tier list (the reddit one is what you are referring to right?) is that it operates under the assumption that we actually fight the enemies in the dungeons instead of skipping them all. In Clive's case this means that he would already be promoted by 1-7 (possibly Python as well), and the extra exp lets everyone reach benchmarks more easily. I think the lack of dungeon exp and the pace of the run won't make it possible for Clive to surpass Mathilda in this context.

Although on the topic of dungeon exp, in drafts of Echoes we were allowed to fight each dungeon encounter once each, and perhaps the most notable aspect of this was that it gave whichever male villager you got to loop from Dread Fighter to Bow Knight in Fear Shrine to basically handle the rest of the act by themselves due to their massive stats. I'm interested to see just how much the lack of this will impact your turncount.

Even without the massive stats of a looped Bow Knight, having multiple Bow Knights is definitely necessary for low turning the later maps in Act 4, so Archer!Kliff will be worth investing into for that.  

[Espinosa]

Just got a 6-turn clear of 1-7 that I'm happy enough to move on from. Clive levelled up, Gray got +3 str, Alm got str, Clair and Python levelled up even if they usually don't, Kliff got a good level-up, Python and Fate got the perfect offensive level-up. No Mana Herbs wasted here too. Don't think I could hope for anything better here. 

Yeah, you're right, the difference between a casual efficiency run, a draft run that allows dungeon encounters and an LTC run that says "no" to everything is pretty damn huge. 

Haven't tier lists always been like that since day one though? There's a vague concept of efficiency behind it that people struggle to agree on and little actual LTC involvement. Then again, LTC runs hardly require a tier list as a prop, rather they need prescriptions of how exactly units ought to be used, or the knowledge of how to operate efficiently with whatever units are available. 

I'm not even sure that anybody is going to loop for sure in this LTC run, but it could well turn out to be a necessity. Without dungeon encounters though, it's way tougher to maintain turn counts while raising a looper archer up, since dungeon fights have no stiff logistical requirements to meet in terms of unit movement and usually finish by turn 1 if the player tries to go fast. 

Anyway, I should have a lot of recordings to share soon as far as chapter 1 is concerned, but this won't last long. I can't move on to chapter 2 until I figure out if I'm using the wells or not and whether I want to farm coins in dungeons, and I can probably only give an accurate answer to that question after I have routed the entire run, which will take a while obviously. 

[SSJDennis]

Well done Espinoza!

What units made it through promotion? Only Clive and Gray? Or found a way to increase the level of Kliff dramatically? How about Physic on Faye?

I think you should go for minimal coin farming. Single boost to Ridersbane will get you far, but you eventually want to max it out.

I think C2 will be a breeze. Early Thunder for Boey? Super rigged Mae and offcourse Seraphim Cecila.

Going to tackle zombie dragons with a nasty pp crit?

Looking forward to your videos!

[Espinosa]

I notice people keep talking about leaving the Iron Shield for Celica's party to pick up since they need to ShoveSwap more, but nobody (seems to be) talking about the Steel Lance in the same location in Act 1. Alm's party already has an iron lance, a steel lance and a ridersbane, the latter being by far more important than anything else, and on this run Lukas is too useless to be fighting with a lance. Clive, Clair (I'm actually training her; should I not?) and Mathilda do genuinely need weapons, but I thought that Celica's army having one for both Palla and Catria is more important? Their importance can't be understated on that path, while Clair... may have Soren-Shove-type contributions that we haven't yet established? That's what seems to me.

I couldn't promote anybody but Gray and Clive, but these two both getting there is lucky in my book. Kliff is lv. 4 and can get to a Sniper promo by the Forest Village earliest which is where he can potentially get his Killer bow and/or forge too. Tobin is losing in level to both Kliff and Python and leaves me wondering if he'll ever Excalibur access anytime soon. Physic looks unlikely right now, and Luthier may well have better combat stats when he joins in Act 3. Tobin is faster when he does get Excal though, and that could matter more when both are close to the doubling threshold for much of the game. 

Faye is only lv. 2 lol. If she'd promoted in 1-3, she might have been more privileged now, but Faye has so much magic in 1-3 she ate up all the Brigand kills - I could barely get Kliff to promotion on the last turn of the map. Her +str/spd level-up makes me hopeful about her levelling up some more in Act 3. When Physic is hers, she can gain experience more rapidly, but being able / having to heal Silque after her Warps does get her a surprisingly stable source of exp already. Still, Silque does want to see at least SOME combat to continue getting more Warp range. 

I've never tried to LTC Act 2 before, so the experience will be all new, but these maps all look short and not any sophisticated, so it shouldn't take forever. 

Also, it appears that in Act 3, Alm's army can go back to his Act 1 wells without moving any of the enemies on the map until he initiates the first storyline encounter, so we could sit on the wells a little while longer since we can't decide what to do with them. In the last map with the masked knight, Celica could actually require the well boosts (+3 str could make a world of difference there, I imagine) to assist her with the quick clear. 

This solves my coin dilemma too - Alm could go back to his dungeons after coins in Act 3 should I decide it's okay to farm them. 

[Espinosa]

I'm routing Act 3 and it's causing me terrible distress. Of course, I'm referring to the skirmishes that start appearing on the map and which totally ruin any semblance of reliability and replicability the run should have by this point. The skirmish armies can randomly engage your party in a different part of the map, can ambush it without you being able to do much about it, and can take a different number of turns to beat. Different runs may also face skirmishes a different number of turns, causing the player to lose control over turn count planning and reaching level benchmarks with key characters. 

This is a big deal. Ideally, we should be able to avoid random skirmishes altogether, like we  can in Sacred Stones or TearRing Saga LTCs. I've been doing my best to gauge just how possible this is. Unless I'm missing extra means of rigging the RNG, it's not as possible as one would like. When a battle has finished and you have saved the game, the RNG seems fixed, so loading your save will cause the same skirmish army to appear in a certain place... or not appear, every time. Of some importance here is visiting towns, dungeons and forts. Both travelling there and exiting out can potentially trigger a skirmish to appear or an existing one to advance, with what seems like comparable consistency.

However, there MIGHT be some ways to rig it.

Before engaging Desaix, you naturally want to recruit Luthier who's likely as good of an armour slayer as Levin Sword Gray is. Now, here's the thing. If you enter the village and exit it without doing anything, a skirmish will appear in the same location as Desaix. If you recruit Luthier and then exit the village, nothing will appear. I do imagine on a different run it could well be the other way around, or cause no change regarding this issue. 

The RNG seems to be in a fixed state after a battle has been finished. I don't know if backing up a temporary save and then restoring it just before the end of a battle would, but if it's something I will have to continuously engage in for the desired outcome I'm going to fucking hate it. 

Changing equipment, opening menus and moving from one area to another doesn't appear to affect skirmish behaviour, though there may be some methods I haven't figured out to try (not sure what they could be).

I suppose I needn't worry about any of this until I actually reach Act 3, but I will eventually, and it needs to be fully figured out before any actual LTC-linked planning is done. You know, what the run is supposed to be about. All in all, it's really frustrating. 

[General Horace]

the only suggestion i have is routing the skirmish maps with a roided up forsyth on alm's side.  He probably won't even do anything ever as a soldier anyway, so you can just not deploy him in maps.  Alm will gain bonus exp though.  Or you could just suck it up and hope to get lucky with skirmishes.  I really wish you could get rid of them like previous games.  1-7 should be 5 turnable, maybe not with your units though, and it's incredibly frustrating because of the hitrates.

Edited August 11, 2017 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

Yeah, Alm would level up... and he'd level up while raising Forsyth to do all of this too. 

I think I know an unconventional solution to the skirmish problem, inspired by your idea in part. This save editor tool. Face the skirmish without using weapons/shields so that your units don't make progress towards learning skills, then edit their level and stats to what they were prior to the skirmish. You need some patience and time to do it repeatedly, but you can potentially do some things like have Celica visit locations that she would otherwise generally avoid, like visiting the Dragon Shrine and retaining Atlas/Pegbabes. 

Thoughts?

The game will still record your turn counts in those skirmishes though (also, can we have a confirmation of dungeon encounters not being counted in the ending credit turn count roll?). 

I have a feeling you're right about the map 1-7 5-turn... On the last 6-turn clear that I kept, Clair killed the soldier on the eastern wall on turn 5 PP, so by then the only enemies remaining were the two archers and armour to the north. If Alm and Gray can somehow manage to get there a turn earlier (if they don't waste any turns not moving forward), the map can be cleared 1 turn sooner.

You're also correct that it will be some serious RNG hell though, and things like good level-ups and Clive getting into promotion range cannot be taken for granted after all the time it will take to succeed. 

I'll see what I can do!

[General Horace]

Oh yeah, training Clair probably isn't worth it.  Her start is too terrible and Clive can kinda ridersbane before Mathilda (although he's worse at it without speed fountain for a while).

[Espinosa]

Until I returned to 1-7 to try for a 5-turn, I had a Clair who was actually 1 AS faster than Paladin Clive (but with way poorer bulk and noticeably less strength). I thought she might double cavs more easily than Clive would. Not sure if I would want to give fountain boosts to Clive, but it's something that can be considered I suppose.

5-turning 1-7 is hell as expected. Looks like not only should the combat on the eastern wall work out as intended but I have to seriously modify the way I warp and use Gray and Alm on the first few turns so that they clean up and can keep moving north. Silque has a 7 warp range and I might experiment with an 8-tile range to see if it helps me with the objective at all. My 6-turn strat involved warping Leather Shield Gray to tank some hits and bait all the cavs/some archers south, then warping Lightning Sword Alm to KO one of the eastern wall archers, leaving the other one for Python (dealing with the archer and possibly chipping at the lone soldier was literally all he was supposed to do). However, the mess created is huge and moving on forward is not possible for the next couple of turns, which possibly robs me of my 5-turn clear.

I wonder if warping Gray two tiles further could help with 2 more mag on Silque + Swap!Tobin on the 1st turn. I could either try to counterkill an archer, forced to attack at 2-range, or weaken/try to critkill multiple cavs with an iron sword. Connecting two Lightning Sword hits on a cav is almost always bad though. Then I need to do something about the extra living archer on the eastern wall... Tobin could ORKO them if he had 1 extra mag... 

I'm questioning my Clair use in this chapter. What she does is bait the 2nd eastern wall archer so that Python can start countering him on turn 2 EP, then retreat to be healed by Faye, then move into position where she can engage some enemies. Her actual contributions don't start until turn 4, when she engages the lone soldier that cleanly 2HKOs her. So the eastern wall is not exactly guaranteed to be clean by turn 5 either... 

[SSJDennis]

Maybe a bit unrelated to the previous posts, but would it help, or at least make it easier to switch Gray and Kliff around?

Kliff can reach lv3 in 1-2, if he gets two kills in 1-1. Gray already has the needed 4 speed, and Kliff wouldn't matter his level ups, seeing he will fly to 10 speed.

Last focus should be on Faye, whom will not likely kill much or easy in Act3. Did your Silque reach lv7 "easily"? Or did she require (much) more then random boss EXP?

[Espinosa]

I don't think Kliff can reach lv. 3 in 1-2 ever. If you remember, getting FAYE to lv. 3 in the first two maps entailed getting her two kills in 1-1, then getting something like a +str/spd/def level in 1-2, turn 1, and iirc also a speciifc Tobin level-up too? Kliff can get one kill in 1-1 at most and can't feasibly get to promotion before 1-3. I've never LTC'd 1-3 with an archer for a reason on any of my Act 1 runs.

Getting Silque to lv. 7 was hard work, but after she got nearly 3 levelups in just the first map, I knew it wouldn't be that bad. It was still very hard work because of rigging mag levelups for Silque and Faye not contributing in 1-4 due to being a villager scrub, but you can't expect to get 3 levels of experience AND Kliff and Faye promoted in one single lucky clear. 

[Espinosa]

Does anybody have tips about unrigging the RNG when using the Turnwheel? The RN doesn't seem to consistently change when Turnwheeling to an earlier action, and it seems like moving around the map and doing the vertical movements with the cursor as you would in the GBA games does nothing, or does nothing a lot of the time.

Do we have any clear idea what changes the RNG for sure? I'm sure I would've figured out by now if there were save states, or with a LUA script of sorts lmao. Maybe somebody's had better luck here than me. I didn't make a conscious effort to comprehend the mechanics behind it on a normal PT when I had many more Turnwheel uses than 3 I have right now.

It seems that my 5-turn strategy is possible right now, but I can't get close enough to seeing it succeed when I get the same bad enemy phase 3 times in a row, often as late into a well-played clear as turn 4.

[Espinosa]

Woo, I've finally got my first 5-turn clear!

I imagine I'll be redoing the map because everything else was p terrible. Out of 2 level-ups Alm got no strength and only 1 spd, Gray's 3 levels were mediocre, and Kliff got no offensive improvements. Faye claimed +1 str/spd/def however and is ready to level up again next heal. Clive can't level up at all playing this fast, so no promotion for him, and I used up both of my Mana Herbs too :(

I wonder though, how good are the items available in dungeons in the next couple of chapters? Do we have a resource on random items in destroyed boxes and the like on SF? I do believe I will have SOME form of coin/item farming in this playthrough, because at the speed we're going it's not manageable to carry on with the run otherwise. 

Edit: Oh wow, my chances of getting the 5-turn down again are way slimmer than expected. Just ran out of hard disk space before I deleted all the failed recordings. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Espinosa

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Espinosa said:

I wonder though, how good are the items available in dungeons in the next couple of chapters? Do we have a resource on random items in destroyed boxes and the like on SF? I do believe I will have SOME form of coin/item farming in this playthrough, because at the speed we're going it's not manageable to carry on with the run otherwise.

Would this be what you're looking for?

https://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-valentia/miscellaneous/random-items/

[Espinosa]

Ah thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. No 20HP restoratives until Alm's first Act 3 dungeon... Guess I'll be re-doing 1-7 without wasting my Mana Herbs somehow. 

I have no idea how Horace 5-turns this map on Hard in a draft setting - I need all of my party slots to get my 5-turn to succeed, and everybody is doing something to contribute. 

[Espinosa]

Here's the only successful outcome of my Vietnam experience trying to 5-turn this map:

 

Don't think I will ever be able to improve it so I will stop trying. 

Beginning Celica's part now. Currently wondering if a 2-turn of Pirate Fort is at all possible. Mae needs crazy offensive stats (either super high str or super high spd, boosted by the well) and needs to be Swapped twice? Not possible I imagine. Alternatively, Celica can get the kill on turn 3 with her higher skill for critting, possibly with Thunder assistance from Mae?

And I'm still not convinced the Blessed Sword and two well levels in Dragon's Shrine are worth the three turns spent fighting the two Dracozombies. 3 turns! Will they be returned by the investment at all? 

[Art_Dealer]

Nice going. For chapter 2's pirate fort map, the boss moves onto the healing tile on turn 1 so the only one who can attack him is Mae with Thunder in the first 3 turns. That said, a 3 turn is very easy with a thunder crit (I think Mae needs 12 attack +4 from thunder; although she will have 3-6 critical at most). I recommend giving 2 speed to Mae and 1 to Celica at the priory. Rigging str is easier than speed. If you reach 12 speed for Mae by the cantor map you can complete it in 3 turns with a double thunder crit from Mae, though it probably isn't worth your sanity at that point.

As for the sea shrine map:

Saber probably needs to promote if you want to do the final map in 3 turns. Getting Leon to Sniper is kind of important as well. If you're willing to use a villager fork (if you decide to do this) to turn Mae into a pegasus knight right away, you can save at least 1-2 turn on every single map in chapter 3 and 4 (after rigging almost every level for attack, speed, and giving her all the stat up items and spring bonuses; you need at least 21 AS to double Grieth in chapter 3). Sea shrine is also the main source of silver mark's for Celica and getting a brave sword on the first visit to the mountain village.

 

For reference my most recent turn counts when restarting my LTC attempt for chapter 2:

Graveyard 4 turns (Got Mae 1 level up so that I didn't have to feed her a str fountain; the rest went to Genny and Celica)

Boat 1: 3 turns

Boat 2: 3 turns

Pirate fort: 3 turns (needed a 4% thunder crit from Mae)

Boat 3: 4 turns (Didn't attempt a double thunder crit from; Celica reached level 5)

Sea Shrine: 3 turns (Gave Celica two points of resistance; grinded up enough silver/coral fragments to made a brave sword from the iron sword; Mae promoted to villager; fed the kills to Saber and Kamui)

Boat 4: 3 turns (You might want Leon to proc at least 1 str in this map to neutralize the boss in the next map). 

Boat 5: 3 turns (Saber, Leon, and Kamui promoted afterward; Mae promoted to Pegasus knight; Boey learned Thunder); Kamui's promotion doesn't necessarily save any turns, but helps make the first 3 maps in chapter 3 more reliable)

Zofia Castle: 3 turns (Saber needs to reach the boss by turn 3 player phase and crit at least 1/4 of his attacks; Celica learned Thunder during this map; picked up the steel lance that Alm's side left behind afterward)

I'm working on Fear Mountain in chapter 4 now, let me know if you have any questions about stat benchmarks up through there.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Art_Dealer

[General Horace]

In drafts you have the exp from the shrines, and they don't count for turns, so your units are a lot stronger, although with abused levels it looks like your units are roughly as good anyway.  I had Cleric Faye with rescue when I 5 turned the map.  

Edited August 19, 2017 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

17 hours ago, Art_Dealer said:

Nice going. For chapter 2's pirate fort map, the boss moves onto the healing tile on turn 1 so the only one who can attack him is Mae with Thunder in the first 3 turns. That said, a 3 turn is very easy with a thunder crit (I think Mae needs 12 attack +4 from thunder; although she will have 3-6 critical at most). I recommend giving 2 speed to Mae and 1 to Celica at the priory. Rigging str is easier than speed. If you reach 12 speed for Mae by the cantor map you can complete it in 3 turns with a double thunder crit from Mae, though it probably isn't worth your sanity at that point.

I forgot about the boss moving to the heal tile... There's no chance you could learn Swap with 2 units before then anyway. What does Mae need so much attack speed for? You won't be doubling the Pirate Fort boss with Thunder anyway, and it seems like the Shrine dracozombies won't be dented much whether Mae doubles them or not.  

If it's needed for uber Pegasus Mae (which I don't plan to have as I won't be using a Villager's Fork nor using any of the Cipher characters), I guess she needs very high stats. Can't Grieth be KO'd with a skill critical though? 

WRT relying on Shrine for silver marks: Celica doesn't need to start farming until her Act is over, by which point she can get access to Alm's dungeons where she can do the same. 

18 hours ago, Art_Dealer said:

I'm working on Fear Mountain in chapter 4 now, let me know if you have any questions about stat benchmarks up through there.

That's a lot of progress, Act 4 already? Yeah, I'm pretty curious about it. Are the Cipher characters doing most of the work as you planned? Who do you have time to train? I'm already having difficulty imagining using Tobin for the longterm and thinking Luthier will be my secondary mage besides Delthea (who I hear is really good for LTC) and the Cleric women. 

Do you not regret using two Mercs over two Archers? I have a feeling an extra Archer is needed for the 1-7 5-turn clear and never stops being useful from there (though with their current stats, Python and Kliff can't possibly do any heavy lifting without maxed Killer Bow forges or something). 

Interested to hear about the Act 3 stat benchmarks too, though in a Cipherless run I suppose some of them would change in a run without DLC content like mine? You should have a better idea about it. 

18 hours ago, General Horace said:

In drafts you have the exp from the shrines, and they don't count for turns, so your units are a lot stronger, although with abused levels it looks like your units are roughly as good anyway.  I had Cleric Faye with rescue when I 5 turned the map.  

That's true, but even with "abused" (not much is possible without save states) levels I can't make units magically more mobile or have high stats in areas where they require promotion and nothing else. Rescue!Faye can definitely make a world of difference in 1-7; I guess Silque is free for all drafters in Echoes? The two of them could warp quite a few units up, and move them to other parts of the map since your number of units is so limited. Still, 5-turning 1-7 on Hard is impressive however strong your party may have been. 

[General Horace]

I kinda forget my team, but I think I had a thunder sword Myrm, Python, Faye and yeah Silque is free.  Maybe one more filler dude like Forsyth.

 

And yeah, I'd just not invest in Tobin anymore seeing as he's only level 3.  

[Espinosa]

I'm sure Tobin would be played differently if he had the stats he'd had on my initial LTC run that was discarded due to Silque failing to reach Warp on time. 10 mag/10 spd that I had back then is way better than the present 9 mag/8 spd. It would also snowball from there since he wouldn't need to weaken enemies in 1-7 for Faye to finish off (I imagine I do need Faye to keep levelling more than I do with Tobin, with her earlier Physic and eventual Rescue). Still, Tobin cares about the number of his level-ups no less than their quantity. Getting to Excalibur in >2 levels would improve his player phase performance a lot. 

[Art_Dealer]

4 hours ago, Espinosa said:

I forgot about the boss moving to the heal tile... There's no chance you could learn Swap with 2 units before then anyway. What does Mae need so much attack speed for? You won't be doubling the Pirate Fort boss with Thunder anyway, and it seems like the Shrine dracozombies won't be dented much whether Mae doubles them or not.  

If it's needed for uber Pegasus Mae (which I don't plan to have as I won't be using a Villager's Fork nor using any of the Cipher characters), I guess she needs very high stats. Can't Grieth be KO'd with a skill critical though? 

WRT relying on Shrine for silver marks: Celica doesn't need to start farming until her Act is over, by which point she can get access to Alm's dungeons where she can do the same. 

That's a lot of progress, Act 4 already? Yeah, I'm pretty curious about it. Are the Cipher characters doing most of the work as you planned? Who do you have time to train? I'm already having difficulty imagining using Tobin for the longterm and thinking Luthier will be my secondary mage besides Delthea (who I hear is really good for LTC) and the Cleric women. 

Do you not regret using two Mercs over two Archers? I have a feeling an extra Archer is needed for the 1-7 5-turn clear and never stops being useful from there (though with their current stats, Python and Kliff can't possibly do any heavy lifting without maxed Killer Bow forges or something). 

Interested to hear about the Act 3 stat benchmarks too, though in a Cipherless run I suppose some of them would change in a run without DLC content like mine? You should have a better idea about it. 

Yeah, actually the 2 speed investment was needed for the 3rd boat map (cantor), I ended up trying to go for the double thunder crit which ended up not happening d/t being too unlikely. Although the initial speed investment helped Uber pegasus Mae remain ahead of the curve during chapter 3, especially being able to double the high speed mercenary line. Although doubling Grieth is not strictly necessary, it is helpful to take him out on enemy phase to save phase phases for uncounterable enemies (like the cantor).

Otherwise not sure who would benefit from those speed wells. Celica would benefit from at least one though to help stay above the curve early on. You could consider saving them for Leon or Saber (although rigging speed is good enough as well) or even Catria down the line. I ended up grabbing Yuzu and Shade after I recruited Catria and Palla. Their map cost 4 turns. Neither really made much impact turnwise although an extra physics and healer made a lot of my strategies more reliable (e.g. Mae died less often). My team by Duma's tower was Celica (learned Excaliber at the final battle), Uber Mae, Genny (never got to expel which was a huge mistake that ended up costing 1 turn in Duma Tower), Shade (never reached level 10 for rescue), Catria, Palla, Leon (fully forged killer bow), Saber with a 2 star brave sword, Sonya (who was filler), Yuzu (who was also filler). My biggest regret was wasting one of the EXP fountains on Shade (since she never reached rescue) instead of Genny and extra enemy kills that could have gone to Saber on Kamui who ended up needing the other fountain to promote to dread fighter for chapter 4. I noticed on a few maps, having two extra deployment slots actually gave me a better position to reach enemies earlier which probably saved a turn on the archer fort map.

Turncount for Celica's chapter 3 and 4 for comparison:

3- Recruited Palla and Catria

2-Graveyard

5-Archer fort (Pegasus Mae could reach enemies on turn 1 due to the 2 extra deployment slots)

3-Deen; attempted Sonya's map, but found Deen's map more reliable to complete

5-Grieth

2-Graveyard (I forced a paladin skirmish onto this map)

5-Mila's temple; Sniper Leon with Killer Bow was kind of clutch

4-Mire; needed a dread fighter to reach one of the enemies on the final turn and a Saurion so Falco!Mae could counter the Mire users

1-Necrodragon skirmish (Mae can 1RKO necros with any lance at this point without a crit although Alm sent over the blessed lance)

4-Dolph; Catria promoted after this map

4-Jamil, I needed a forged javelin since Saurion is 2-3 range only.

2-Jedah's swamp; My Mae reached 43 attack with a forged lance and was able to 1RKO Jedah. If I had Catria, Palla, and Genny promoted at this point, the chapter would've been 1 turn. I mailed the rion shield (since I needed 10 range warp for one of the chapter 4 maps, an almost fully forged brave sword, and one of the golden apples). Leon and Palla promoted after this map. Expel would've helped in Duma's tower but I didn't think of it at the time.

Duma tower:

2 -Fiend

2- Necrodragon

2- Bowknight; Needed Leon to be a bowknight at this point with a fully forged Killer bow to work

3- Mogall; promoted Genny could have saved a turn

I did a really poor job of allocating EXP to Saber, Genny, Leon, Palla, and Catria because Mae kept killing everything. Boey had both shove and swap, Valbar, Est, Mae, Sonia all had swap which were pretty helpful.

It wasn't so much I wanted to use 2 mercenaries, more like I needed Kliff to be a mercenary and I wasn't sure what to do with Gray. In the end I took my 6 turns and went with it although I realize there could've been improvements. Mage Tobin would have been able to replace Kliff's job on the left side and a second mercenary would just mean having to pass around the thunder sword more and I think a 5 turn probably would have been possible. I don't think a second archer would have saved me any turns in chapter 3. Randal kind of is amazing in maps with cavalry, he definitely saved at least the 4 turns it took to grab him (Emma is kind of helpful as well); Alm's side has very few competent fighters and limited access to good swords early on. The main bench mark's for him is to have enough AS to double Berkut each time he shows up, which isn't hard since Randal's growths are easy to rig. Mainly 13AS in chapter 3 for Berkut and then I think 15AS for Lawson if I remember correctly. In chapter 4 he needs 16AS to double Berkut the second time. He'll need 25AS for Rudolf. Matilda might be able to replicate this role, but I not sure if she can snowball fast enough. 

Alm's chapter 3 and 4:

3- Emma and Randal helped speed things up since Claire and Clive are not good and no one else is good at fighting besides Alm and Kliff (who had to be warped up kill the boss by turn 3)

3- Mages in a forest are annoying, the javelin sent from Celica's side helped a lot. Emma's base resistance helped bait mire mages safely

2- Berkut, if I didn't trigger reinforcement due to map movements, this would've been 1 turn since Randal could've 1RKO'd all the cavalier line enemies

4-Desaix

2-Randal had enough speed to double Lawson

3-Bowknight boss was unremarkable, needed the furthest witch to warp toward me on turn 1 or 2 though.

4-Tatarrah; Silque had 9 range warp which was just enough; Faye learned Rescue sometime in this map; Kliff and Randal promoted after this map. Javilin was once again clutch for the 4 turn.

Chapter 4:

3-Border, Randal had to be able to 1RKO Berkut again, starting to try to train Delthea since I suspect ranarok might be important at some point. Alm promoted before starting this map. This is probably the last map that the thundersword is still useful

2-Xaixor- needed 10 range warp on this map for Kliff to lure the boss on turn 1 enemy phase while simulateously killing one of the witches that might ruin my strategy. Needed 22AS to double although not strictly necessary since I had a brave sword to force critical hits to happen reliably. Tobin has shove and Clive/Luthier has swap

5-Fear mountain, I think I can improve this so I'm still working on it when I have time

I've been investing in Kliff and Randal mostly. Faye has 6 range rescue and Silque has 9 range warp, rion shield is applied for an extra range as needed. I'm trying to invest in Delthea although it's a slow process to ragnarok (although her bases and growths are great). Tobin is level 9 at this point, but he's been pretty helpful for the most part since the only way to 1RKO armors are with excalibur crits. Matilda, Alm, Clive, Gray, and Emma are pretty reliable at killing mages with the right weapon. Python was rigged speed on every level up and has 9AS with 2 star killer bow and he is able to stay ahead of the curve for enemy mages and archers for the most part. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Art_Dealer