Serenes Tiering

[bethany81707]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nnAJuNCkxTh-AK6_lGgSujPHXNDqozhwVnxVLRJN_Ug

So, with a lot of debate on here about the recommendations that others provide in terms of the meta, I reckon it's time to create a Serenes-native resource to compare the best units to tackle the current meta to those who have niches that simply don't measure up.

...Unfortunately, I'm not the best at penetrating the meta. I'd like some help in ordering all the different units in terms of how well each uses their favourite weapon. Make your suggestions, find the edge cases, and bandy them about. Let's see what we can come up with.

And if I should use a different metric, that'll also help.

The defining metric:

Spoiler

Exemplary: the best of the best. The units that define what the current meta is all about, and the ones that your [defensive] team should be prepared to come across. Often handles their theoretical weaknesses with aplomb.

Useful: units that, while not exemplifying the current meta, are certainly very good at succeeding within it. A team made out of Useful units will certainly get results. Will handle most units well, but falters against their weaknesses.

Handy: units that can do a job very well, even if that job will not carry them through the whole meta. These units are often good at shutting down one particular threat, but can only really hold their own against others. If you have a team made entirely out of Handy units, you might expect to do in the area of half as well as an amazing team. Dealing with units that are neutral to them can sometimes go wrong.

Situational: units that can do only one job to satisfaction, often at the complete expense of everything else. If you're using a situational unit, you're probably going to only find them working when you find the one thing they're countering. Only really useful dealing with units at a disadvantage.

Limited: units who fill their best purpose so mediocrely that the only reason you'd even bother with them is favouritism or lack of a superior resource. Often struggle with units at a disadvantage to themselves.

Things to consider: how good that unit is when in their element, how good said element is against the current meta, and what happens when they fall out of their element.

[TheNiddo]

Oh boy. I'm already in the GameFAQs one and that is a massive mess at times.

Let me help you out here by pointing out some things you'll have to figure out how to tackle:

1) Is it only player controlled characters? Player and AI? What ratios if both are considered? 

2) What requirements are we looking at? IVs or mostly ignoring IVs? 100% full team support for the character being discussed (as in horse and flier emblem pretty much take over the top two tiers with almost everyone else dropping below them in comparison)? General loose support considered so Bladetomes don't end up looking horrible? 0 support considered, its solely what the character can bring to a team of any type? Full SI or no SI? Do we deduct for cost for optimal setup or assume unlimited SP easily available?

3) How are you going to weed out bias? Because there are loads of it. You will have people lowballing Tharja just because they don't like her. You will have people lowballing Hector because "just throw reds at him" despite the fact you can say that about any character and their colour weakness. You will have people trying to claim Felicia is an amazing character because of her Res despite the fact she's a horrible character. You will have people who hate Lucina just because she's popular/common and try to downvote her. You will have people who refuse/are unable to objectively number crunch things and just go by "gut feeling" which leads to situations where character A and B are almost identical but B is voted 3 tiers lower because not popular. If you just take everything at face value the tier list will be useless because of these issues.

4) Are healers being compared to every unit in the game, or just themselves?

5) How do you plan on gathering the votes? How do you plan to weed out troll votes?

6) Do you have to consider the meta strictly as is right now (high number of blues, high number of green mages, low use of reds in general), or consider a fictional meta where all colours are used equally? Do we consider only enemies with optimal set ups, or any set up? How many optimal set ups if we're going that direction?

7) How much impact should defensive tiles weigh into the votes? They show up in 1/3 of the arena rotations and they can impact a lot. Jaffar is pretty bad in most situations, but his poison set up actually has some amount of use (arguably) during a defence tile season.

8) Do we factor in BST? While a lot smaller impact than before... if you're going for T20 ever bit of score matters, thus the tiny changes from BST matter. Thus armours are still worth more in that regard and mages/daggers/archers are worth less. How much do we factor BST if its included?

Edited June 19, 2017 by TheNiddo

[XRay]

Why is Nowi on the bottom? I am not a big fan of enemy phase units, but Nowi is just as good as Hector on enemy phase, and better than Hector on player phase since she has better movement and attacks with magic.

[bethany81707]

2 minutes ago, TheNiddo said:

Oh boy. I'm already in the GameFAQs one and that is a massive mess at times.

Let me help you out here by pointing out some things you'll have to figure out how to tackle:

1) Is it only player controlled characters? Player and AI? What ratios if both are considered? 

2) What requirements are we looking at? IVs or mostly ignoring IVs? 100% full team support for the character being discussed (as in horse and flier emblem pretty much take over the top two tiers with almost everyone else dropping below them in comparison)? General loose support considered so Bladetomes don't end up looking horrible? 0 support considered, its solely what the character can bring to a team of any type? Full SI or no SI?

3) How are you going to weed out bias? Because there are loads of it. You will have people lowballing Tharja just because they don't like her. You will have people lowballing Hector because "just throw reds at him" despite the fact you can say that about any character and their colour weakness. You will have people trying to claim Felicia is an amazing character because of her Res despite the fact she's a horrible character. You will have people who hate Lucina just because she's popular/common and try to downvote her. You will have people who refuse/are unable to objectively number crunch things and just go by "gut feeling" which leads to situations where character A and B are almost identical but B is voted 3 tiers lower because not popular. If you just take everything at face value the tier list will be useless because of these issues.

4) Are healers being compared to every unit in the game, or just themselves?

5) How do you plan on gathering the votes? How do you plan to weed out troll votes?

6) Do you have to consider the meta strictly as is right now (high number of blues, high number of green mages, low use of reds in general), or consider a fictional meta where all colours are used equally?

7) How much impact should defensive tiles weigh into the votes? They show up in 1/3 of the arena rotations and they can impact a lot. Jaffar is pretty bad in most situations, but his poison set up actually has some amount of use (arguably) during a defence tile season.

1) This one should be player vs AI Arena. I'd imagine the inverse has a different criteria (blade units drop, 1-2 range units rise, etc).

2) Loose support, I take it. It was on eclipse's suggestion that Cecilia, Ursula and Spring Camilla dropped.

4) I'm going to imagine each unit is being judged by their peers, not just staves.

5) By eye. I'm getting suggestions to fill it in in the first place, and then it'll be shifting up and down as new units.

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

Why is Nowi on the bottom? I am not a big fan of enemy phase units, but Nowi is just as good as Hector on enemy phase, and better than Hector on player phase since she has better movement and attacks with magic.

I was working on the 'struggles with red units' problem. That might get her up, depending on her competition.

[Korath88]

I still think making a tier list for this game is a waste of time, and players should just try to use the units they have to the best of their ability, but if you're really set on this, I'm not going to try to stop you.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Korath88

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Korath88 said:

I still think making a tier list for this game is a waste of time, and players should just try to use the units they have to the best of their ability, but if you're really set on this, I'm not going to try to stop you.

 

But tier lists are fun though. I agree that new players should try to figure things out for themselves first, but I do not think that is worth it for players who already understand the basics, are midway in the story mode, and need some guidance on what to do next. Stamina and time are precious resources. The beauty of a tier list is that a player can quickly glance at it and know who in their barracks they should prioritize.

[TheNiddo]

Yeah uh you... have Nowi very far off base. She's a top 5 unit or just outside top 5 most likely.

All she really needs is TA + QR. Doesn't even need Swordbreaker. She's already dying to Julia and Nino fairly easily before TA and axes are almost never used, so the larger weakness to green doesn't hurt her at all. TA also shuts down Falchions fairly hard. She already has pretty good defence. By strengthening her colour advantage against the Falchion users, she slaughters them. A base Lucina vs a base Nowi beats Nowi. A base Lucina vs a Nowi with TA is absolutely slaughtered with Nowi only taking 15 damage. Worst case (reasonably possible) scenario of +Attack Lucina + LaD vs Nowi TA, Nowi is taking 23 damage and is still 1SKing Lucina in return.

A +Attack Alm is dealing 20 damage a pop to her (with Attack+3 skill still equipped), a +Attack Chrom is dealing 21 damage (that's ignoring the fact that if he's used at all, its with a Brave Sword setup which ain't going to work against Nowi at all). 

She's not quite Hector, but she can deal with the Falchion problem very easily, with no real negative repercussions. Julia going into super overkill instead of just serious overkill doesn't matter that much, lol.

---

Outside of that, I'm afraid I disagree with well... quite a lot of your current list. (Llyod, Masked Marth [remember, no IVs which is a serious issue], Xander, Palla, Fem!Robin, Narcian, Male!Robin, Olwen, Subaki, Est, Hector, Zephiel, Draug, Bride Cordelia, Kagero, any healer ever being in the top two tiers...). I think it might be better if you... slowed down and went through units one at a time. With a lot of discussion for each one. Because its too much to try to tackle as is in one go.

[Vaximillian]

@TheNiddo re: point 7 — it’s actually closer to 1/2. There are two sets with and two sets without fort tiles; and one of these sets only has 4 fort maps out of 5.

Also yeah, Est’s too low. She does brave on par with Hinoka and very close to Cordelia. She won’t quad but hey, this doesn’t warrant the bottom tier. @phineas81707, what’s up with that?

Edited June 19, 2017 by Vaximillian

[bethany81707]

4 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

@TheNiddo re: point 7 — it’s actually closer to 1/2. There are two sets with and two sets without fort tiles; and one of these sets only has 4 fort maps out of 5.

Also yeah, Est’s too low. She does brave on par with Hinoka and very close to Cordelia. She won’t quad but hey, this doesn’t warrant the bottom tier. @phineas81707, what’s up with that?

...We'll get going on that individual discussion thing, then. Where do we start?

[Xaos Steel Wing]

I don't really care for tier lists, for Heroes or for any game really.

I tend to prefer the philosophy of use whatever characters you like and make the work.

Now with the way Heroes is, stats do matter, and there's lots of units that are just plain weak due to their stats and others that are strong. So it does somewhat matter.

I think that mages should be separated out from infantry. They perform a very different role from melee infantry and occupy a different slot - usually mages compete with other mages and ranged units for a spot on your team, not with melee units.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Xaos Steel Wing

[bethany81707]

1 minute ago, Xaos Steel Wing said:

I think that mages should be separated out from infantry. They perform a very different role from melee infantry and occupy a different slot - usually mages compete with other mages and ranged units for a spot on your team, not with melee units.

Honestly, that's mostly because I'm running out of room.

[eclipse]

I think it's more of "what situation is this unit good?"  For example, Elise is the best offensive staff user. . .if she's in Horse Emblem with heavy skill investment.  On the other hand, Azura can be plopped in almost any team, and still be useful because she dances.  I requested Spring Camilla, Ursula, and Cecilia to be dropped because two of them require a specific team to really shine, and Spring Camilla's most generically effective build doesn't stack up to Julia/Nino (and her non-generically effective build requires a bunch of things that die to arrows).

Now, for specific units:

Mae - Handy.  Blarowl is not a weapon to be underestimated, because having what's essentially Spur Everything +6 is pretty funny, especially on top of 36 base Atk.  She's competing with Linde for the blue mage slot, which is unfortunate.  The thing that's holding her back from Useful is her 31 Spd.

Spring Lucina - Handy.  Her biggest issue is that she really wants Odin's everything (yes, even Defiant Atk).  Otherwise, she's basically Nino with four less Atk. . .which turns into something pretty unholy with Defiant Atk active.

Nowi - Useful.  Yes, she dies to greens.  Yes, she doesn't like Falchion.  However, she'll murder every other red out there, along with a good chunk of colorless and blue units.  Having innate 1-2 range along with her decent bulk means that she'll probably dish out a hit before she goes down.

Edited June 19, 2017 by eclipse

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Honestly for starting point the only unit that should be at the highest tier possible is Olivia Ninian Azura

 

Other units can be argued here and there. These three.... can't.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, JSND said:

Honestly for starting point the only unit that should be at the highest tier possible is Olivia Ninian Azura

 

Other units can be argued here and there. These three.... can't.

 

I agree. I do not think anyone would object.

[Ice Dragon]

Bride Caeda: Has an almost identical offensive spread as Spring Lucina, which are the only stats that matter to them. Wherever Spring Lucina is, Bride Caeda should be in the exact same tier.

Sophia: Situational, maybe Handy with the addition of Panic Ploy. Walls everything green as well as most things colorless. Unless she's at a disadvantage in merge levels, she can one-hit kill every Gronnblade+ user (that isn't +HP or +Res and doesn't have defensive buffs) except Fury Cecilia at high merge levels. She fails to one-round kill Julia without G Tomebreaker or Quick Riposte to allow her to double attack. Swordbreaker allows her to have favorable match-ups against common sword users if one-round killing Julia is not a priority. Her HP is higher than every common Litrblade+ user, as well as Reinhardt and Olwen, allowing her to use Panic Ploy against them if she remains at full health.

Armors: This is how I see armors:

Hector: Useful. He has access to the best kit among the armors in regards to running a standard team. He still needs mobility support to function on player phase, which keeps him out of Exemplary.

Effie: Useful. One of two armors who has any business running Wary Fighter due to her massive base Atk. Brave Lance+ lets her put in work on player phase, but she still needs mobility support.

Zephiel: Handy. The other armor who has any business running Wary Fighter due to access to Eckesachs. Hindered mostly by being locked to a neutral nature (as he is the equivalent of a [+Atk, -Spd] nature with 32 base Atk and 19 base Spd), limited merges, and the fact that he cannot one-hit kill Spring Camilla on the counterattack (meaning he is forced to take two hits when running Quick Riposte, which is potentially fatal, or risks either having Camilla repositioned away or Wings of Mercy teleporting to Camilla when running Wary Fighter).

Sheena: Handy. Basically the only armor with an actual Res stat when used outside of an all-armor team. She's also green, meaning she tanks the common blue magic nukes, one-hit killing the frailer ones like Linde and Olwen and killing Reinhardt with Quick Riposte. Sheena is the bulkiest available armor with 45/44/41 bulk under two stacks of Ward Armor, making her more effective than Hector on an all-armor team.

Draug: Handy. He's fast, which means you can actually use him on player phase if you have the mobility support to move him where he wants to be. A +Spd nature and Life and Death 3 gets him 40 Spd, which lets him favorably handle axe users and slower green tomes (read: "not Fury Nino"), and running Wo Dao+, Moonbow, and Swordbreaker also lets him hold his own against common sword users due to having a still massive 34 Def after Life and Death 3. Not as effective on an all-armor team since Zephiel has better magic bulk.

Gwendolyn: Situational. Better than Effie for the blue slot on an all-armor team due to her bulk, but really only useful in an all-armor team where she'll have the stacks of Ward Armor to take the hits she wants to take.

Note that I don't actually use Hector, Effie, or Draug (my armor team is the other three plus Ninian in the arena or a vanilla Draug for armor missions), so those three are all just running on numbers and hearsay.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Eliwood: Handy. A really extreme glass cannon. Usually you can only really use him to handle some specific things before he basically become an emergency delete button. Personally i think without expensive build that make use of his Res, he's actually outclassed by Cain/Luke in his initiating sword role

Soren: Fury 3 Soren can survive Reinhardt with exactly 1 HP. For the rest, Soren is a pseudo Nino. He did not quite have the offensive stats, but Green Mage with the possibility of surviving Rein is enough to be put at Useful area

Gunter: Situational Physical tankiness distribution combined with Quick Riposte and a decent attack score allows him to have a solid chance to handle a somewhat common Physical Lance enemies. His Attack isn't quite low enough that Brave Axe+ build would still works nicely to snipe some priority targets. Those factor put him in a higher level than his low BST comrade Jagen as a glorified Horse Buff unit.

Elise: Handy at best the amount of team investment needed to enable Elise to reach a specific area of amazing offense is ridiculous. She have 81/4/55 1vA Neutral match up with Hone Cavalry, +ATK, A+3, and Assault. Healing is frankly not that much of an advantage in utility when Reposition is as good as it is. Elise DO have an insane performance jump with Goad, getting 125 kills with HC, A+3, +ATK, Assault and 1 stack of Goad but thats pushing it for support allocation.

 

Kinda wondering about this, whats the general idea of Olwen on Exemplary with Ursula at Useful? Merges and better priority target from DT build?

[bethany81707]

4 minutes ago, JSND said:

Elise: Handy at best the amount of team investment needed to enable Elise to reach a specific area of amazing offense is ridiculous. She have 81/4/55 1vA Neutral match up with Hone Cavalry, +ATK, A+3, and Assault. Healing is frankly not that much of an advantage in utility when Reposition is as good as it is. Elise DO have an insane performance jump with Goad, getting 125 kills with HC, A+3, +ATK, Assault and 1 stack of Goad but thats pushing it for support allocation.

 

Kinda wondering about this, whats the general idea of Olwen on Exemplary with Ursula at Useful? Merges and better priority target from DT build?

I'm not sure about investment.

But I think Dire Thunder is what's putting Olwen so high.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

21 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

I'm not sure about investment.

But I think Dire Thunder is what's putting Olwen so high.

The problem for Elise isn't investment from skill build(which is actually pretty damn light. All you need is Genny) Its the team slot

Her problem mainly comes from lacking the access to the amazing A slot skills that make her look much worse than she seems.

For Elise to actually reach an amazing offensive power level, she need  Wrathful Staff, Hone Cavalry, AND Goad Cavalry. Admitably Elise have a really noticable power jump if you do add Goad on top of Hone, but thats 3 team slot dedicated to enable her. To put it in numbers term, heres to give an idea of her coverage vs Fury override:

Atk+3 Elise:

+ATK Hone Cavalry - 56 wins · 9 losses · 75 draws

+SPD Hone Cavalry - 67 wins · 9 losses · 64 draws

+ATK Hone and Goad - 100 wins · 9 losses · 31 draws

+SPD Hone and Goad - 112 wins · 9 losses · 19 draws

 

SPD+3 Elise:

+ATK Hone Cavalry - 67 wins · 9 losses · 64 draws

+SPD Hone Cavalry - 65 wins · 9 losses · 66 draws

+ATK Hone and Goad - 112 wins · 9 losses · 19 draws

+SPD Hone and Goad - 101 wins · 9 losses · 30 draws

 

Most unit with support on ATK and SPD could reach 90-110+ Area

Edited June 19, 2017 by JSND

[MrSmokestack]

I'll just echo a sentiment that has already been stated a few times already: Why exactly do we need this? My primary objections are:

-There are a number of tier lists floating around from easily-accessible places on the Internet already. At best, this list would only resemble them; at worst, its biases would be much more apparent due to the nature of the list itself.

-Usage statistics do not currently exist outside of self-reporting teams. Because of this, there is no way of ascertaining which units are actually being used more often than others--which is by far the most important metric for evaluating just how "good" a unit is or is not. Outside of a combat sim that tracks teams and player rankings--which would invite more complications, mind you--there isn't a surefire way of telling whether a unit is good or just hyped up. Bonus units also throw tiering off balance since you more often than not have to adjust your team to accommodate them--which limits what you can run without losing synergy. Of course, that can be circumvented by evaluating units individually, in which case -Blade units and Horse / Armor / Flier Emblem units are rated lower since the benefits they receive from allied buffs are ignored.

-As for the nature of the list, not just any person should be allowed to provide whatever input they want. Doing so opens up a can of worms that reeks of bias and misinformation. The fewer, more qualified players managing a given tier list, the better. For instance, the Wiki, if I am not mistaken, has measures in place to ensure that only experienced players ideally anyway--not your average theorycrafter!--can make changes to the list. And even then, misinformation still manages to spread. Allowing potentially thousands of users to evaluate a list rather than a select few makes the problem much worse. Don't forget the people that will rate certain characters much lower or higher than others for no other reason than their design or personality! These people are impossible to weed out unless you evaluate each character separately a la Rate the Unit, where you can toss outlier votes out more easily and take an average of the overall votes. Which would be a logistical nightmare. I'm not seriously suggesting that. Constantly making fixes as people suggest them is not only inefficient but also a drain on time.

For those familiar with other games, you may be thinking of one exception already--I'll address it. This Tier List by the Melee Backroom is notably the only one of its kind to be produced through fan votes and feedback. However it's important to note that that game is over 16 years old and features a 25-something cast to Heroes' 144--never mind they exist in completely different genres.

-It gives the wrong impression. The units at the top will stay at the top since they will be constantly used and have their position reinforced, while the units at the bottom become obscure because fewer and fewer people will want to use them. Any unit works with proper SI, and since there's nothing tangible at stake in the Arena people shouldn't hesitate to build up units they like even if they might be "subpar" in a vacuum.

 

That said, there are a number of issues with the tier list itself that a single post can't possibly address. Since Nowi being at the bottom was noted already...

Spoiler

-Mounted Healers not on par with other mounted units. Wrathful Staff and ignoring weapon advantage are huge boons to their offensive presence.

-Zephiel not on par with Effie and Hector. His spread is more min-maxed than Effie's and his Prf has innate Threaten Def letting him run another C skill in addition to potentially raising arena score due to the SP cost. Fantastic Armor Emblem unit overall.

-Infantry healers not being rated the same. Something went wrong if your healer got attacked, and Candlelight or Dazzling Staff negate counters.

-Bride Caeda and Spring Lucina have similar matchup spreads to Linde with the same set and should be rated higher. Merges and availability should not be taken into account when constructing tier lists.

-Ike and Ryoma not being rated at the very top. Innate Distant Counter and high Atk already puts them at the top of their class and not being run over a certain other unit should not be rated against them.

Overall, I see no practical benefit to hosting something here that will in the end amount to "just another tier list". Tier lists are best constructed using a metric--usage stats--that do not currently exist in an accessible form in Heroes. Involving the community in building a tier list is perfect fuel for flame wars and endless arguing that will divide more than it brings together. Finally, finding a friendly and reliable source like Serenes advocating for a resource like this on their own site discourages people from just playing the game normally and finding what works for them. To an extent, at the end of the day tiers and tier lists don't matter, just like not every unit must have their ideal spread lest they be deemed "useless" in Arena.

 

Oh, and have fun making your Arena Defense tier list when you're all done with this one, by the way.

 

EDIT: Thanks Vax

Edited June 19, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[bethany81707]

2 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Oh, and have fun making your Arena Defense tier list when you're all done with this one, by the way.

I could always offer that as an alternative. Try and finally crack who to choose.

...On the other hand, defence teams are also a lot more focused on team composition, too. And the scariest thing I can think of in a single defence unit is 'has Distant Counter'. Which is kind of easy to do theoretically.

I'm guessing that's why it'll be fun.

[Xaos Steel Wing]

14 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Overall, I see no practical benefit to hosting something here that will in the end amount to "just another tier list". Tier lists are best constructed using a metric--usage stats--that do not currently exist in an accessible form in Heroes. Involving the community in building a tier list is perfect fuel for flame wars and endless arguing that will divide more than it brings together. Finally, finding a friendly and reliable source like Serenes advocating for a resource like this on their own site discourages people from just playing the game normally and finding what works for them. To an extent, at the end of the day tiers and tier lists don't matter, just like not every unit must have their ideal spread lest they be deemed "useless" in Arena.

Oh, and have fun making your Arena Defense tier list when you're all done with this one, by the way.

Why usage stats?
Just because people are using a unit a lot doesn't actually mean they're good. Usage stats would also be influenced significantly by availability as well (being on multiple banners, being available as 3* and 4* vs 5* only, etc.)

If anything, wouldn't win rates would be the statistic you want?

In general, I'm not a big fan of tier lists. They make more sense in a stat based game like Heroes (as opposed to skill based games like fighting games) but I generally don't look at them or make tier lists of my own. I advocate people finding what works for them on their own and using what they like. It's inevitable that some characters will be better and some will be worse, but if anything tier lists only encourage people to use certain characters which are "perceived" as better. They might helpful to clueless new players, at least.

8 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

I could always offer that as an alternative. Try and finally crack who to choose.

...On the other hand, defence teams are also a lot more focused on team composition, too. And the scariest thing I can think of in a single defence unit is 'has Distant Counter'. Which is kind of easy to do theoretically.

I'm guessing that's why it'll be fun.

I think a Defence tier list is even more pointless than for Offence.

It's the AI playing. And you only need 1 win a week with a bonus unit. Getting defense wins depends a ton on what other players bring. And whether they surrender after 1 death going for deathless. There's just far too much outside of one's control to really make it worth giving much thought to defense. Hardly a worthwhile endeavor to make a tier list for.

Some people seem to have a lot of trouble getting defense wins...

I just make a team of 2 melee, 2 ranged units and seem to get a win every week no matter who they are. Worked for me since week 1. Yet for some people it doesn't seem to work at all...

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Xaos Steel Wing

[MrSmokestack]

@phineas81707 That 140-some unit count just became 280...

4 minutes ago, Xaos Steel Wing said:

Why usage stats?

The units used most often in the higher Tiers of Arena are the ones your team needs to prepare for the most. Like you said, usage =/= effectiveness necessarily, as is the case with something like Hector compared to a more dangerous threat like Reinhardt even though both are commonly seen.

[Xaos Steel Wing]

1 minute ago, MrSmokestack said:

@phineas81707 That 140-some unit count just became 280...

The units used most often in the higher Tiers of Arena are the ones your team needs to prepare for the most. Like you said, usage =/= effectiveness necessarily, as is the case with something like Hector compared to a more dangerous threat like Reinhardt even though both are commonly seen.

Oh, I see, I misunderstood.

If you mean usage on defense teams at high tiers, then that does make sense. I thought you were talking about usage on offense - where you would actually want to look at win rate.

Adapting to the commonly seen enemies makes sense.

As you mentioned, Reinhardt is super common on defense teams I face. So I run Soren due to his high resistance, who can bait and one-round Rein and have Luna charged up after.

If Rein wasn't such a common major threat, I might run Nino or Linde instead.

[tanuki]

You missed one category:

Waifu/Husbando

[Vaximillian]

36 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

to Heroes' 134

144 including not-yet-playable Clarisse.