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NekoKnight's Review of the Story


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Hello everyone,

It’s NekoKnight, your friendly wet-blanket, parade-rainer and the general reason why we can’t have nice things. Today, I’d like to discuss the story of FE: Shadows of Valentia.  SPOILERS AHOY! You have been warned.

In a number of threads I heard people bring up their individual questions and complaints about the writing but as a whole, people say it’s a big improvement over Fates. And it IS a big improvement over Fates (thank the gods) but it also has similar elements that made Fates so bad in the first place. First I’ll do a review of the story and then discuss why it’s actually more like Fates than some people realize. Keep in mind that there are a lot of things to love about SoV, especially the excellent world-building endeavors, but this review and analysis are to discuss just the plot.

The Review

Spoiler

 

We begin our tale near Ram village and get to see the villagers as children. So far so good, we get a feel for their personalities and relationships, particularly the one between Alm and Celica. But the problems of SoV show up early with the introduction of Slayde. Look, I get it, Fire Emblem bad guys are rarely subtle in their design (and boy does SoV take that to a new level) but this guy makes me cringe as hard as “Act like the adult you technically are.” You have to read it to believe it.

"Listen well you whelps. My men and I, loyal knights in service to his Majesty King Lima IV, hereby command you to lead us to your miserable line of hovels, where you shall have the honor of dining us and otherwise providing us all comforts. I wager we'll get naught but pig feed and horse piss, but so be it."  

Whoa! Turn down the ham, Malevolent McBadguy! If you twist your mustache any harder you’ll be able to braid it.

Slayde’s a dick, and the story wants you to know it, but his attitude is just absurd. Why does he go to such length to condescend to some children he just met? Why is he so transparent in his intention to do harm? Does he not realize he could get the information he wants a lot easier if he pretends to be kind? Am I the only one around here who knows how to coerce children!? There are ways of signaling that a guy is up to no good without the man himself shouting “STRANGER DANGER! HIDE YO KIDS!” Anyway, Gray gets to say some extremely un-childlike witticisms and eventually Slayde is chased off by Mycen. The plot continues with Celica having to flee the village and Alm promising that they will meet again.

Flash forward to the present and, having become teenagers, the villagers are now at the designated world-saving age. The villagers get a surprise visit by Lukas who has come to recruit Mycen to lead the rebellion against Desaix’s traitor faction. Grumpapa Mycen wants nothing of it and Lukas has to settle for his eager “grandson” Alm. That’s fine, he needs all the men he can get. The quest begins and they work their way to Zofia castle fighting bandits, traitorous Zofian soldiers and rescuing every distressed damsel they can find (you’ll find there are a lot in this game).

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Engage in the captured female position!

The plot picks up again when they reach the resistance (called the Deliverance) hide out. We learn that Desaix backed by Rigel is stomping the resistance and they have taken heavy losses. They need knew blood and new leadership apparently. And this is where the plot starts to take a tailspin downwards. Of all people, they elect Alm, just because he’s Mycen’s *wink wink, nudge nudge* “grandson”. WAT? Alm? This kid has never even left his village until now and you want to foist leadership of the entire army on him? Why not Clive, Lukas, Fernand or anyone? The game tells us that it’s because they have a lot of commoners in the army so they need to appeal to them with a commoner leader, but that’s like saying you should put a baby in charge of a nursery school just because the demographics are slanted that way. Fernand is a nonsensical jerkass but I’d be pissed too if some farm boy with no world experience was suddenly made my commander. The irony of Alm's appeal to commoners is that he was chosen not for his experience with leadership but because of his supposed blood ties to Mycen. Yes, it's still a lineage based decision.

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The party heads to Zofia castle and after a short battle they send Desaix and his cronies packing. Wait what? I thought the Deliverance was in dire straits (if you play the DLC, it paints an even more hopeless situation) but Desaix was a total pushover! I guess Alm is just that super special awesome because after liberating the castle, Alm is praised as a hero. Alm was just put in charge and the push to liberate Zofia castle wasn’t even his idea! Oh well. On to chapter 2.

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I'm pretty sure that's how the right of kings usually works, Clive.

Chapter 2 proceeds by introducing the now young-adult Celica and starting her journey to reach Mila’s Shrine. We start with what appears to be a prophetic dream but it's actually a massive red herring (just like Alm's Turnwheel induced vision). Nothing in the dream comes to pass or gets averted based on Celica's actions. In it we see Alm fighting Rudolf and according to Alm, all of his friends, including Celica have been killed. This doesn't match up because not only do Alm's friends not die, but when Celica "dies", it's not until AFTER Alm defeats Rudolf. In the dream, Rudolf gets magically empowered (presumably by Duma) and kills Alm, but neither of these things could or would happen because Rudolf has no connection to Duma and he wouldn't purposely kill Alm anyway. Yeah, it's just a random dream that only serves to freak out Celica. 

The rest of the chapter has reasonably good writing and Celica gets to fight with zombies, pirates, and talk to every cat in Zofia. Also, Saber is a cool dude everyone wishes was their dad.

Celica learns that Alm is now leading the Deliverance and fearing for his safety, rushes to Zofia castle to confront him. Celica was a nice character for most of chapter 2 so it’s unfortunate that she becomes worse so soon. Celica meets up with Alm after being separated for 7 years and they have what is almost a heartwarming reunion. Celica’s beef is that she doesn’t understand why Alm must lead the Deliverance (hey, I don’t either) and insists he not go to war. While Celica’s prophetic dream about Alm’s death gives her good reason to be worried, her attitude toward dealing with Rigel is really nonsensical. As Alm says, Rigel is invading and driving them out of Zofia is the only logical course of action. Celica insists that #Rudolfdidnothingwrong and Mila will fix everything if they go to her temple. I get that pacifism and stagnation are themes with Zofia but strangely, she’s the only Zofian who thinks sitting on their hands until god intervenes is a good idea.

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Anyway, Alm talks some smack about the former Zofian king and Celica leaves in a huff (she's angry despite earlier implying she hated her dad), shouting “Become a king if that’s what you want so badly, jerkface!” Alm insists that he doesn’t want to become king (because that’s just crazy-talk) and he’d be happy to return to Ram village if the missing Zofian princess was found to lead the Deliverance but Celica keeps the information that she is the princess to herself. I heard our resident romantic relationship (like marriage level, guys) expert insist that Celica’s emotional outburst and fight with Alm are just like a lovers’ spat but it’s hard to sympathize with Celica when Alm explains his reasoning and Celica comes off as borderline insane, shouting unfounded assumptions and getting emotionally charged over innocuous comments. Celica and Alm split and Alm can confidently say that he’s got 99 problems but a bitch aint one. On to chapter 3!

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"Women and their emotions, amirite guys?" -this game

Alm continues his quest to drive Rigel out of Zofia and slaps the shit out of Fernand, Berkut and Desaix. Through his encounters we get a lot of foreshadowing about Alm not being who everyone thinks he is. Several people say that Mycen didn’t have any grandchildren and Desaix mentions that Mycen is trying to put “Rudolf’s pup” (how does he know about Rudolf's plan or that Alm is his son anyway?) on the Zofian throne. Eventually they find a magical sword that according to stories can only be wielded by someone with royal blood. Sure enough no one can use this sword except for…Alm! Could that mean that Alm is….! NO! Stop! Stop connecting the obvious dots, the plot says. Even though everything is pointing to Alm being royalty and not related to Mycen, no one really takes this seriously. Lukas is not a smart man.

Moving on, Alm learns of a Rigelian plot to flood Zofia, so he heads to the sluice and defeats the old Chinese wizard there.

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Yu Mo Gui Gwai Fai Di Zao! Magic must defeat magic!

 

Celica’s journey continues on the east side. It's not super plot relevant until they get to Grieth's citadel and we learn about Celica's mom and King Lima, but it's nice to see Celica fighting off bandits and making Zofia a better place while Alm is doing his thing. Now arrived at Mila's temple, we find out that Rudolf captured Mila which is the cause of both the drought and the uprising of Terrors. Celica sets her sights on Duma tower in order to retrieve Mila who she is still convinced will be the solution to everything. On to chapter 4.

Going back to Alm, he makes his first step into Rigel and is confronted by Berkut and Fernand. As usual, the Deliverance is successful and sends Berkut packing but not before he activates a magic mirror that summons a bunch of zombies. Gasp, what will our heroes do!? Oh, Celica's charm immediately dispels Nuibaba's magic. Well those two trinkets were completely pointless. Anyway, Alm heads over to Nuibaba's castle, lured by an illusion of Celica, and puts an end to the witch before heading over to a village and recruiting Zeke.

 

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Zeke focusing his x-ray vision powers to see through Alm's gloves.

The rest of Alm's conquest goes pretty smoothly....which is bizarre. Zofia is characterized as the country of lazy, hedonists who live cushy lives unknown to hardship, and Rigel a country known for people who work and live hard lives, their military being especially robust. So why is Zofia winning so easily? The state of Zofia is actually much worse, as a villager says in Ram village.

Villager (Ram Village😞
"Can’t grow much without rain… Why has Mila forsaken us? What’s happened to the Earth Mother? She’s killing us by withholding her blessings. The Rigelian Empire will seize our lands and we’ll be too weak to resist… You’ve heard how well trained their soldiers are, haven’t you? We’ve never toiled or fought for a thing, and we’re about to pay for it…"

So the country of pacifists that is suffering from famine, a civil war and terrors is kicking the ass of the country whose patron deity is a god of war? There is a line in Chapter 4 about some Rigelians responding favorably to Alm's party bumping off Nuibaba but it's not like he suddenly had a lot of Rigelians backing his army. The disadvantage Zofia faces is absurd. It should an easy victory of Rigel, not the other way around (realistically, they would have been stomped long before they even got to Rigel). It's a really problematic plot element but we have even bigger fish to fry.

Alm defeats all of the Rigelian forces and approaches Rigel castle where Rudolf awaits. Alm gets a bullshit line about not being able to hate Rudolf because he feels familiar somehow (because newborn babies have exceptional memories) and they do battle. Alm (the player already knows because the game makes it bloody obvious) learns that Rudolf was his father and is devastated. As Alm tries to piece together the fact that he's the son of the Rigelian emperor, he's confronted by Mycen who tells him Rudolf's motives and Mycen's part in it. Alm is appropriately enraged that Mycen had been lying to him his whole life and manipulated him into killing his own father but Mycen is unapologetic, telling him not to be a whiny bitch and walk it off. But Celica is in danger so Alm rushes off to Duma's tower.

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Before we dive into Celica's C4 stuff, can we discuss the absolute insanity that Rudolf's plan is? Rudolf learns that fate has big things in store for his son so he sends him away to where he can live a safe, happy life until it's time for the plot to begin. So far so good, good dad moment there, Rudolf. And now it's time to start knocking back the bottles of crazy pills because Rudolf decides the heroic thing to do is start a war that will claim thousands of lives just to inspire his son to kick his ass. What the fuck am I smoking? This can't be healthy. You're telling me that rather than go after Duma, the actual threat to the world, he's going to lead his people and Zofia's to slaughter each other and then reveal he wanted to get rid of the gods all along? Why didn't he just find Alm and tell him everything? Why did there need to be a war? Why not just kill Mila and Duma himself? WHY!? He basically set up the whole continent for tragedy and the game paints him in a very sympathetic light. Alm becomes traumatized and he ruined Berkut's life by making him think he had a chance at becoming emperor. Mycen is pretty shitty too for lying to Alm his entire life but Alm doesn't hate him for it. Fuck Rudolf and Mycen, seriously. Phew, felt good to get that out of my system. I'm sure Celica's C4 stuff will be fun and full of rational choices. *crowd laughter*

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Alm: What were you thinking?
Rudolf: Fuck if I know.

If you thought deserts and unlimited skeletons were fun, you are going to have a ball with poisonous swamps and necrodragons! As Celica makes her way through Rigel to get to DumaTower, she is approached by Jedah, who, to put it lightly, is a sketchy dude. He looks like a Scooby Doo villain and isn't shy with his sinister laughing, but in Celica's opinion, the Jedah isn't evil. He actually has a reasonable bargain to make. If Celica offers her soul to Duma so his degeneration can be reversed, Jedah promises to return Mila and Alm won't have to go to war anymore. I don't blame Celica for considering the deal, I blame Jedah for doing everything he can to show he's untrustworthy. Apart from his appearance and evil laughing, Jedah keeps attempting to kill her friends which is usually a clear sign someone shouldn't be trusted (Celica even calls him 'completely mad' at one point). But Celica keeps on going because of the plot. It's said by multiple people that Celica often internalizes her problems but it doesn't really make sense that she had to keep her dealings with Jedah a secret. Even if protecting Alm was a selfish wish, unworthy of sacrificing her life, the prospect of potentially saving Zofia through Mila is definitely worth discussing with her friends. Celica keeps her secrets and despite promising to not sacrifice herself, to Conrad, she goes through with it anyway, making his inclusion in the story pointless.

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Seems legit.

A major element of Celica's decision making is her desire to protect Alm, and we come into a gameplay induced plot hole. If you play through Alm's C4 chapter first, eventually Alm will run into a roadblock fans have taken to calling Dracozombie Hell. Alm can't progress until Celica completes Duma's tower and it's implied that seeing Alm struggle there (through Jedah's visions) drives her to go through with the sacrifice. That's not unreasonable but a problem occurs when you play through Celica's C4 chapters first. If you do that, Alm never runs into Dracozombie Hell and never suffers any real setbacks or hardships. The invasion of Rigel goes swimmingly and Celica's fears were baseless. Whoops.

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You would think Alm would be more wary of this vision considering Nuibaba deceived him earlier with a vision of Celica.

Anyway, Alm and Celica have reached the end of the line and now it's time for Chapter 5.

Chapter 5 begins with Berkut going insane having learned that Rudolf was lying to him his whole life and he sacrifices Rinea's soul to get a power up from Duma. Alm heads down to Duma's tower and they encounter the dying Fernand. Fernand has been nothing but nasty all game but Alm forgives him, because Alm is basically Jesus now. After that Alm meets up with Celica and Jedah, and Jedah reveals the endgame plan of sacrificing Celica to create "a world of fear and chaos". Celica doesn't seem to mind that conclusion, as long as Mila is restored. This is when we get the massive plot twist. JEDAH IS EVIL. Yes, I was shocked as well. Jedah reveals that Mila sealed herself so there was never a way of bringing her back and Celica gets her soul taken from her.

But Alm isn't calling it quits yet and presses onward. He has to deal with the crazed Berkut and after slaying him, we get a really weird scene where Rinea forgives him. "Water under the bridge, not mad about sacrificing my soul to Satan". Well...okay then. I don't know why the game wants us to feel bad for Rudolf/Fernand/Berkut when they're all such horrible people (but I'll talk about that later). It was also strange that Alm suddenly felt anxiety about being left all alone. Rudolf and Berkut were nothing to him before the war and he never expressed feeling lonely while living in Ram village.

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Goodnight sweet prince, and flights of angels carry thee to douchebag heaven.

Later on Alm kills witch!Celica with the unsealed Falcion, but Mila revives her and Alm's party joins Celica's in order to defeat Duma and slay Duma once and for all. The game ends as Alm becomes king of all Valentia but I find it a little out of left field. Yes, Duma talks about embodying the best of Duma's and Mila's qualities in creating a new world without the gods, but it seems abrupt to unite the continent when they have such differing values. I suppose with the gods no longer present, humanity will eventually even out.

I do have to wonder if Celica's journey had a real purpose. The only thing she accomplished was killing some pirates and bandits (who are implied to be a threat that will never truly go away). Nothing she does is really integral to helping Alm or saving the world so the game couldn't probably have just been all about Alm and nothing would change. 

It sounds like I gave Chapter 5 a hard time, but apart from the silliness with Fernand/Berkut/Celica, the chapter had good pacing, emotional highs an interesting speeches by Alm, Duma and Mila. It was a worthy conclusion to this (deeply flawed) game.

 

Analysis

Spoiler

 

Now that I’ve finished the review, I’d like to talk about the specific flaws and how they relate to Fates. The first point is the protagonists. Alm is often met with a neutral if not favorable reception but he bears some similarities with the widely disliked Corrin. Alm starts as a sheltered boy but the plot quickly hands him everything on a silver platter. He’s put in charge of the Deliverance even though there are more qualified individuals to lead, he easily defeats his enemies and doesn’t have any real flaws. People generally regard him as special and unique, praising him as their would-be king even before they know he is a prince. Male characters admit they are inferior to him and female characters are attracted to him. He even becomes a king of the whole continent despite not expressing a desire to be one, just like Corrin in Revelation. Alm is a preset character but he's very akin to an Avatar. Characters even look at you while talking and Alm's responses are only implied (in base conversations).

I'll put in a few quotes to demonstrate the kind of adoration he receives, only swapping out one word: Alm.

Clive: Just look at what you did in my stead. I criticized you roundly for diverting our army to save one person. But you did it anyway because you have something I do not—strength of heart. You understand what is precious and fight for it no matter the cost. I am lucky to have so wise a teacher.

Man (ZofiaCastle): Three huzzahs for Zofia’s liberators, and three huzzahs for Avatar! Truly, he is the hero Zofia has been waiting for. And he’s every bit the champion General Mycen was! Make no mistake, the Rigelian Empire’s as fearsome a foe as they come, but with Avatar leading our forces, we needn’t fear any man!

Tobin: You’re the one who said all those years ago that Avatar was different from us. You knew he was going to do something like this one day. [...] Well, you were on to something no matter what you meant. Because now we’re starting to see that he’s much bigger than we are. I’m proud of him, but…I’m also going to miss him.

I’m confident in saying that had Alm been an Avatar in a new game, people would tear him to shreds for being a vessel for player worship. Alm isn’t a self-absorbed, hypocritical, naïve moron, so he’s still leagues above Corrin, but the similarities are there.

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Even his soul is tastier than the average person!

So if Alm is our Corrin, who gets to be Azura? That (dubious) honor goes to Celica and Rudolf. One of the major flaws that sets up the entire plot of 2/3 Fates route is that Azura knows critical information but refuses to tell anyone until you pay for the DLC route. Likewise, Celica doesn’t tell Alm why she is so upset about him leading the Deliverance and leaves, kicking off her own independent journey. Later on in chapter 4, she doesn’t disclose her intent to sacrifice herself, causing additional problems, just like our favorite gray-waves-rider. Rudolf has it even worse with his nonsensical plan to save the world by first invading another kingdom before going after the real bad guy (and keeping the whole thing a secret from Alm for no reason). The game wants us to see him (and Azura) as a tragic hero but they are just obstructive fools. Again, it’s not as bad as Fates where the first two routes only happen because Azura is an idiot. The plot in SoV would likely have gone in a similar direction had Celica been honest with her friends from the start, but we would have been spared a lot of drama. 

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I dunno, maybe people would understand how you feel if you told them.

The villains:

Topping Fates villains isn’t hard (that game set the bar so low that earthworms need to limbo under it) but most of SoV’s also fail to hit the mark. The first one you encounter is Slayde, an overtly sinister mustache twirler that I forgot existed after fighting him in Castle Zofia. The next character is Desaix who is another low-tier, ambitious fool, the Marques Darrin of the game. The last minor villain is Nuibaba, an evil witch archetype.  The 3 villains (Rudolf doesn’t count) the plot wants us to be more emotionally engaged with are Jedah, Fernand and Berkut.

Jedah comes across as a generic evil wizard but he's actually an interesting foil to Celica. While Celica embodies the kindness of Mila, Jedah is the brutality of Duma. What can be said of both characters is that they are entirely faithful to their gods' principles, and want the world to continue under them no matter what they have in store for humanity. Jedah would be an alright character if his plan wasn't so... confusing. The first time you see the Duma Faithful, they try to kidnap Celica, and then they try to kill her with a landslide, then Jedah invites her to Duma tower, but sends his men to obstruct her approach to the tower. And finally, when Celica is inside Duma tower, he reveals he was a villain all along (SURPRISE) and takes Celica's soul by force. Why would he do any of this? If he needed Celica to offer her soul freely, then he should have invited her to the tower and done nothing to impede her or give away his evil intentions. If he didn't need her consent, he should have just kidnapped her and done away with all the bargaining. The Doylist answer is the game needs battles for gameplay but this guy is a powerful wizard. There is no reason he can't just teleport Celica to the tower, with or without her consent. A bigger question perhaps is Jedah's goal. Jedah says he wants to create a world of fear and chaos by restoring Duma but Duma is only a god of evil when he's crazy. Did Jedah not understand his own god? Because he's closer to achieving his goals by leaving Duma as he is. If the game wanted to imply Jedah was gravely mistaken about the true nature of Duma, they didn't communicate that.  

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We're going to build the greatest sluice, and we'll make the Zofians pay for it!

Fernand is a really curious and infuriating dissonance of writing quality. In the DLC and memory prisms we see Fernand is an exceptionally well written and human character. He has a bro-tastic relationship with Clive, a somewhat contrary relationship with Clive’s headstrong younger sister Clair, and feelings of attraction and respect for Mathilda, who he treats warmly even though he knows she only loves Clive. He is loyal and honorable, holding himself and others to a high standard. He is the serious realist to contrast Clive’s optimistic idealism. Before the events of the game his family is murdered by angry, entitled peasants and you can really sympathize with the tragedy this man faced. So what the hell happened in the main story-line? When we meet him with Alm’s party, he shows nothing but contempt and eventually defects over the most illogical excuse imaginable. He will not deign to fight alongside people of low birth. Okay, let’s ignore that some peasants killing his family shouldn’t make him hate all peasants, and let’s also ignore that unless you’re in feudal Japan, the bulk of your army is going to be people of lower birth. The game wants to believe that a man so steadfast and loyal as Fernand (only revealed in memory prisms and DLC) is going to betray his country and everyone he knows just because Alm is not a nobleman. What. The. Fuck? I’m 100% behind Alm not being given command of the Deliverance on account of his lack of experience but even that doesn’t justify Fernand’s defection. For the rest of the game until his untimely demise, Fernand doesn’t show any redeeming qualities, instead comically worshiping extreme classist ideals when those things have really little to do with who Fernand is as a person in the past. You can’t expect me to feel bad for him (or to take Alm’s forgiveness of him seriously) when he acts like a childish snob the whole game. What the game needed to do was have Clive betray some ideal that would be completely contrary to Fernand’s existence but they failed to deliver. I can’t stress enough how well he is written in the memory prisms and DLC and how poorly he is written in the main story. The role he plays (best friend who sides against you because of a difference in values) is a good one but the reason was terrible.

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Fernand feeling euphoric whenever Berkut says something classist.

Finally we have Berkut who is a mixed bag and by far SoVs best villain. The game wants to present Berkut as a rival and foil to Alm, but he’s just never allowed to shine. Every time he fights Alm, he gets his shit slapped around and he runs away with his tail between his legs. We learn later that Rudolf had basically set him up to fail, as Alm was destined to become king of Valentia and you can almost feel bad that he got so shafted by fate. Or at least you would if he weren’t such a whiny pissbaby with zero redeeming qualities. At the best of times, Berkut is arrogant, battle hungry and angry, which makes him a poor match for the kind-hearted Rinea. Rinea could have humanized him but their personalities are so unalike and many of their interactions are just him lashing out at her when she tries to comfort him. Their final scene together is one I liked, however, and it’s a good conclusion to Berkut’s story. Berkut, who was basically raised to worship power and value station above all else, is met by Rinea while he’s having his mental break down. Rinea tries to comfort him by saying she never cared about becoming the empress, but in his impaired mental state, Berkut interprets that as her being party to Rudolfs deceptions. Then, giving into his despair, he sacrifices Rinea to Duma. I think this says a lot about just how different Rinea and Berkut were, and how little they understood each other. Rinea couldn’t understand how badly she wounded Berkut’s pride and Berkut couldn’t understand someone not wanting power or valuing love over station. It’s a tragic ending for their characters and it’s enough to make me like his character despite some mishandling in the plot. If I were to rewrite SoV, I’d give Berkut more successes in battle so he actually presents a real threat to Alm, make his relationship with Rinea warmer, and give him more scenes with people so he’s not either whining or being arrogant. He’s much more the representative of Rigelian values than Alm is, so it’s a shame they didn’t do more with that.

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Berkut, as he appears in the official Shadows of Valentia anime.

I do appreciate that they included a variety of baddies, everything from pirates, cultists, arrogant knights and a mad dragon, but ultimately, none of them are very well written in the main story.

Themes:

SoV has a number of themes, and like Fates it frequently contradicts itself. The first theme we see is that it's our actions, not our birth that determines who we are in the world. This is commented by Alm, Clive and Lukas, all coming to the same conclusion that effort is more important than being born a noble. Alm would be a good example of this kind of success story... if not for the fact he is a secret nobleman himself, not even a minor noble, but the son of the emperor of Rigel. To top it off, he and Celica (another blueblood) are chosen ones, people who fate has determined will be great. It's not people like Forsyth or Tobin who become great heroes, it's the prince of and princess of the two kingdoms who become the leaders. Big shock, right?

The next theme that contradicts itself is the idea of a compromise or accord between contrasting values. Celica (and her father in a different way) is supposed to embody the overdependence on their goddess to fix everything, and Alm is supposed to embody Rigel's warlike and self-sustaining lifestyle. The problem is, Celica is one of the few Zofians who actually agree with letting Mila handle everything. Most townsfolk you talk to say they can't count on the goddess anymore and the whole point of the Deliverance (founded and run by Zofians) are 100% behind Alm going to war against Rigel. So Celica doesn't really embody Zofian values and Alm's "I'll fix things myself" isn't exclusively a Rigelian mindset. When it comes to making a compromise between these mindsets, there is no need. Alm does nothing wrong in the plot and Celica does everything wrong, starting in chapter 4. Conversely, when it comes to their patron gods, Mila is nothing but a benevolent being but crazy!Duma and his followers are nothing but evil. By the end of the game, the continent is united under Alm but there isn't any talk of how Zofians and Rigelians, who lived under very different value systems, would get along. 

 

Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia is kind of like the Phantom Menace for Star Wars. You thought Jar Jar was annoying, and that bit with the midichlorians was kind of dumb, but overall it was an entertaining story. But on closer inspection, you find it's not just a few things wrong with the plot, everything is wrong. The heroes, the villains, the plot devices, the themes and the overarching plot are just nonsensical.

I don't hate the story or world of SoV. It has some interesting themes, great world-building and more than a few cunning bits of dialogue. I'm glad the game was made and would recommend it to others, but at the same time, as someone interested in storytelling, I can't ignore its flaws. What did you think?

Edited by NekoKnight
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Hello everyone,

It’s NekoKnight, your friendly wet-blanket, parade-rainer and the general reason why we can’t have nice things. Today, I’d like to discuss the story of FE: Shadows of Valentia.  SPOILERS AHOY! You have been warned.

In a number of threads I heard people bring up their individual questions and complaints about the writing but as a whole, people say it’s a big improvement over Fates. And it IS a big improvement over Fates (thank the gods) but it also has similar elements that made Fates so bad in the first place. First I’ll do a review of the story and then discuss why it’s actually more like Fates than some people realize. Keep in mind that there are a lot of things to love about SoV, especially the excellent world-building endeavors, but this review and analysis are to discuss just the plot.

The Review

Spoiler

 

We begin our tale near Ram village and get to see the villagers as children. So far so good, we get a feel for their personalities and relationships, particularly the one between Alm and Celica. But the problems of SoV show up early with the introduction of Slayde. Look, I get it, Fire Emblem bad guys are rarely subtle in their design (and boy does SoV take that to a new level) but this guy makes me cringe as hard as “Act like the adult you technically are.” You have to read it to believe it.

"Listen well you whelps. My men and I, loyal knights in service to his Majesty King Lima IV, hereby command you to lead us to your miserable line of hovels, where you shall have the honor of dining us and otherwise providing us all comforts. I wager we'll get naught but pig feed and horse piss, but so be it."  

Whoa! Turn down the ham, Malevolent McBadguy! If you twist your mustache any harder you’ll be able to braid it.

Slayde’s a dick, and the story wants you to know it, but his attitude is just absurd. Why does he go to such length to condescend to some children he just met? Why is he so transparent in his intention to do harm? Does he not realize he could get the information he wants a lot easier if he pretends to be kind? Am I the only one around here who knows how to coerce children!? There are ways of signaling that a guy is up to no good without the man himself shouting “STRANGER DANGER! HIDE YO KIDS!” Anyway, Gray gets to say some extremely un-childlike witticisms and eventually Slayde is chased off by Mycen. The plot continues with Celica having to flee the village and Alm promising that they will meet again.

Flash forward to the present and, having become teenagers, the villagers are now at the designated world-saving age. The villagers get a surprise visit by Lukas who has come to recruit Mycen to lead the rebellion against Desaix’s traitor faction. Grumpapa Mycen wants nothing of it and Lukas has to settle for his eager “grandson” Alm. That’s fine, he needs all the men he can get. The quest begins and they work their way to Zofia castle fighting bandits, traitorous Zofian soldiers and rescuing every distressed damsel they can find (you’ll find there are a lot in this game).

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Engage in the captured female position!

The plot picks up again when they reach the resistance (called the Deliverance) hide out. We learn that Desaix backed by Rigel is stomping the resistance and they have taken heavy losses. They need knew blood and new leadership apparently. And this is where the plot starts to take a tailspin downwards. Of all people, they elect Alm, just because he’s Mycen’s *wink wink, nudge nudge* “grandson”. WAT? Alm? This kid has never even left his village until now and you want to foist leadership of the entire army on him? Why not Clive, Lukas, Fernand or anyone? The game tells us that it’s because they have a lot of commoners in the army so they need to appeal to them with a commoner leader, but that’s like saying you should put a baby in charge of a nursery school just because the demographics are slanted that way. Fernand is a nonsensical jerkass but I’d be pissed too if some farm boy with no world experience was suddenly made my commander. The irony of Alm's appeal to commoners is that he was chosen not for his experience with leadership but because of his supposed blood ties to Mycen. Yes, it's still a lineage based decision.

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The party heads to Zofia castle and after a short battle they send Desaix and his cronies packing. Wait what? I thought the Deliverance was in dire straits (if you play the DLC, it paints an even more hopeless situation) but Desaix was a total pushover! I guess Alm is just that super special awesome because after liberating the castle, Alm is praised as a hero. Alm was just put in charge and the push to liberate Zofia castle wasn’t even his idea! Oh well. On to chapter 2.

 

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I'm pretty sure that's how the right of kings usually works, Clive.

Chapter 2 proceeds by introducing the now young-adult Celica and starting her journey to reach Mila’s Shrine. We start with what appears to be a prophetic dream but it's actually a massive red herring (just like Alm's Turnwheel induced vision). Nothing in the dream comes to pass or gets averted based on Celica's actions. In it we see Alm fighting Rudolf and according to Alm, all of his friends, including Celica have been killed. This doesn't match up because not only do Alm's friends not die, but when Celica "dies", it's not until AFTER Alm defeats Rudolf. In the dream, Rudolf gets magically empowered (presumably by Duma) and kills Alm, but neither of these things could or would happen because Rudolf has no connection to Duma and he wouldn't purposely kill Alm anyway. Yeah, it's just a random dream that only serves to freak out Celica. 

The rest of the chapter has reasonably good writing and Celica gets to fight with zombies, pirates, and talk to every cat in Zofia. Also, Saber is a cool dude everyone wishes was their dad.

Celica learns that Alm is now leading the Deliverance and fearing for his safety, rushes to Zofia castle to confront him. Celica was a nice character for most of chapter 2 so it’s unfortunate that she becomes worse so soon. Celica meets up with Alm after being separated for 7 years and they have what is almost a heartwarming reunion. Celica’s beef is that she doesn’t understand why Alm must lead the Deliverance (hey, I don’t either) and insists he not go to war. While Celica’s prophetic dream about Alm’s death gives her good reason to be worried, her attitude toward dealing with Rigel is really nonsensical. As Alm says, Rigel is invading and driving them out of Zofia is the only logical course of action. Celica insists that #Rudolfdidnothingwrong and Mila will fix everything if they go to her temple. I get that pacifism and stagnation are themes with Zofia but strangely, she’s the only Zofian who thinks sitting on their hands until god intervenes is a good idea.

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Anyway, Alm talks some smack about the former Zofian king and Celica leaves in a huff (she's angry despite earlier implying she hated her dad), shouting “Become a king if that’s what you want so badly, jerkface!” Alm insists that he doesn’t want to become king (because that’s just crazy-talk) and he’d be happy to return to Ram village if the missing Zofian princess was found to lead the Deliverance but Celica keeps the information that she is the princess to herself. I heard our resident romantic relationship (like marriage level, guys) expert insist that Celica’s emotional outburst and fight with Alm are just like a lovers’ spat but it’s hard to sympathize with Celica when Alm explains his reasoning and Celica comes off as borderline insane, shouting unfounded assumptions and getting emotionally charged over innocuous comments. Celica and Alm split and Alm can confidently say that he’s got 99 problems but a bitch aint one. On to chapter 3!

 

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"Women and their emotions, amirite guys?" -this game

Alm continues his quest to drive Rigel out of Zofia and slaps the shit out of Fernand, Berkut and Desaix. Through his encounters we get a lot of foreshadowing about Alm not being who everyone thinks he is. Several people say that Mycen didn’t have any grandchildren and Desaix mentions that Mycen is trying to put “Rudolf’s pup” (how does he know about Rudolf's plan or that Alm is his son anyway?) on the Zofian throne. Eventually they find a magical sword that according to stories can only be wielded by someone with royal blood. Sure enough no one can use this sword except for…Alm! Could that mean that Alm is….! NO! Stop! Stop connecting the obvious dots, the plot says. Even though everything is pointing to Alm being royalty and not related to Mycen, no one really takes this seriously. Lukas is not a smart man.

Moving on, Alm learns of a Rigelian plot to flood Zofia, so he heads to the sluice and defeats the old Chinese wizard there.

 

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Yu Mo Gui Gwai Fai Di Zao! Magic must defeat magic!

 

Celica’s journey continues on the east side. It's not super plot relevant until they get to Grieth's citadel and we learn about Celica's mom and King Lima, but it's nice to see Celica fighting off bandits and making Zofia a better place while Alm is doing his thing. Now arrived at Mila's temple, we find out that Rudolf captured Mila which is the cause of both the drought and the uprising of Terrors. Celica sets her sights on Duma tower in order to retrieve Mila who she is still convinced will be the solution to everything. On to chapter 4.

Going back to Alm, he makes his first step into Rigel and is confronted by Berkut and Fernand. As usual, the Deliverance is successful and sends Berkut packing but not before he activates a magic mirror that summons a bunch of zombies. Gasp, what will our heroes do!? Oh, Celica's charm immediately dispels Nuibaba's magic. Well those two trinkets were completely pointless. Anyway, Alm heads over to Nuibaba's castle, lured by an illusion of Celica, and puts an end to the witch before heading over to a village and recruiting Zeke.

 

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Zeke focusing his x-ray vision powers to see through Alm's gloves.

The rest of Alm's conquest goes pretty smoothly....which is bizarre. Zofia is characterized as the country of lazy, hedonists who live cushy lives unknown to hardship, and Rigel a country known for people who work and live hard lives, their military being especially robust. So why is Zofia winning so easily? The state of Zofia is actually much worse, as a villager says in Ram village.

Villager (Ram Village):
"Can’t grow much without rain… Why has Mila forsaken us? What’s happened to the Earth Mother? She’s killing us by withholding her blessings. The Rigelian Empire will seize our lands and we’ll be too weak to resist… You’ve heard how well trained their soldiers are, haven’t you? We’ve never toiled or fought for a thing, and we’re about to pay for it…"

So the country of pacifists that is suffering from famine, a civil war and terrors is kicking the ass of the country whose patron deity is a god of war? There is a line in Chapter 4 about some Rigelians responding favorably to Alm's party bumping off Nuibaba but it's not like he suddenly had a lot of Rigelians backing his army. The disadvantage Zofia faces is absurd. It should an easy victory of Rigel, not the other way around (realistically, they would have been stomped long before they even got to Rigel). It's a really problematic plot element but we have even bigger fish to fry.

Alm defeats all of the Rigelian forces and approaches Rigel castle where Rudolf awaits. Alm gets a bullshit line about not being able to hate Rudolf because he feels familiar somehow (because newborn babies have exceptional memories) and they do battle. Alm (the player already knows because the game makes it bloody obvious) learns that Rudolf was his father and is devastated. As Alm tries to piece together the fact that he's the son of the Rigelian emperor, he's confronted by Mycen who tells him Rudolf's motives and Mycen's part in it. Alm is appropriately enraged that Mycen had been lying to him his whole life and manipulated him into killing his own father but Mycen is unapologetic, telling him not to be a whiny bitch and walk it off. But Celica is in danger so Alm rushes off to Duma's tower.

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Before we dive into Celica's C4 stuff, can we discuss the absolute insanity that Rudolf's plan is? Rudolf learns that fate has big things in store for his son so he sends him away to where he can live a safe, happy life until it's time for the plot to begin. So far so good, good dad moment there, Rudolf. And now it's time to start knocking back the bottles of crazy pills because Rudolf decides the heroic thing to do is start a war that will claim thousands of lives just to inspire his son to kick his ass. What the fuck am I smoking? This can't be healthy. You're telling me that rather than go after Duma, the actual threat to the world, he's going to lead his people and Zofia's to slaughter each other and then reveal he wanted to get rid of the gods all along? Why didn't he just find Alm and tell him everything? Why did there need to be a war? Why not just kill Mila and Duma himself? WHY!? He basically set up the whole continent for tragedy and the game paints him in a very sympathetic light. Alm becomes traumatized and he ruined Berkut's life by making him think he had a chance at becoming emperor. Mycen is pretty shitty too for lying to Alm his entire life but Alm doesn't hate him for it. Fuck Rudolf and Mycen, seriously. Phew, felt good to get that out of my system. I'm sure Celica's C4 stuff will be fun and full of rational choices. *crowd laughter*

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Alm: What were you thinking?
Rudolf: Fuck if I know.

If you thought deserts and unlimited skeletons were fun, you are going to have a ball with poisonous swamps and necrodragons! As Celica makes her way through Rigel to get to DumaTower, she is approached by Jedah, who, to put it lightly, is a sketchy dude. He looks like a Scooby Doo villain and isn't shy with his sinister laughing, but in Celica's opinion, the Jedah isn't evil. He actually has a reasonable bargain to make. If Celica offers her soul to Duma so his degeneration can be reversed, Jedah promises to return Mila and Alm won't have to go to war anymore. I don't blame Celica for considering the deal, I blame Jedah for doing everything he can to show he's untrustworthy. Apart from his appearance and evil laughing, Jedah keeps attempting to kill her friends which is usually a clear sign someone shouldn't be trusted (Celica even calls him 'completely mad' at one point). But Celica keeps on going because of the plot. It's said by multiple people that Celica often internalizes her problems but it doesn't really make sense that she had to keep her dealings with Jedah a secret. Even if protecting Alm was a selfish wish, unworthy of sacrificing her life, the prospect of potentially saving Zofia through Mila is definitely worth discussing with her friends. Celica keeps her secrets and despite promising to not sacrifice herself, to Conrad, she goes through with it anyway, making his inclusion in the story pointless.

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Seems legit.

A major element of Celica's decision making is her desire to protect Alm, and we come into a gameplay induced plot hole. If you play through Alm's C4 chapter first, eventually Alm will run into a roadblock fans have taken to calling Dracozombie Hell. Alm can't progress until Celica completes Duma's tower and it's implied that seeing Alm struggle there (through Jedah's visions) drives her to go through with the sacrifice. That's not unreasonable but a problem occurs when you play through Celica's C4 chapters first. If you do that, Alm never runs into Dracozombie Hell and never suffers any real setbacks or hardships. The invasion of Rigel goes swimmingly and Celica's fears were baseless. Whoops.

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You would think Alm would be more wary of this vision considering Nuibaba deceived him earlier with a vision of Celica.

Anyway, Alm and Celica have reached the end of the line and now it's time for Chapter 5.

Chapter 5 begins with Berkut going insane having learned that Rudolf was lying to him his whole life and he sacrifices Rinea's soul to get a power up from Duma. Alm heads down to Duma's tower and they encounter the dying Fernand. Fernand has been nothing but nasty all game but Alm forgives him, because Alm is basically Jesus now. After that Alm meets up with Celica and Jedah, and Jedah reveals the endgame plan of sacrificing Celica to create "a world of fear and chaos". Celica doesn't seem to mind that conclusion, as long as Mila is restored. This is when we get the massive plot twist. JEDAH IS EVIL. Yes, I was shocked as well. Jedah reveals that Mila sealed herself so there was never a way of bringing her back and Celica gets her soul taken from her.

But Alm isn't calling it quits yet and presses onward. He has to deal with the crazed Berkut and after slaying him, we get a really weird scene where Rinea forgives him. "Water under the bridge, not mad about sacrificing my soul to Satan". Well...okay then. I don't know why the game wants us to feel bad for Rudolf/Fernand/Berkut when they're all such horrible people (but I'll talk about that later). It was also strange that Alm suddenly felt anxiety about being left all alone. Rudolf and Berkut were nothing to him before the war and he never expressed feeling lonely while living in Ram village.

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Goodnight sweet prince, and flights of angels carry thee to douchebag heaven.

Later on Alm kills witch!Celica with the unsealed Falcion, but Mila revives her and Alm's party joins Celica's in order to defeat Duma and slay Duma once and for all. The game ends as Alm becomes king of all Valentia but I find it a little out of left field. Yes, Duma talks about embodying the best of Duma's and Mila's qualities in creating a new world without the gods, but it seems abrupt to unite the continent when they have such differing values. I suppose with the gods no longer present, humanity will eventually even out.

I do have to wonder if Celica's journey had a real purpose. The only thing she accomplished was killing some pirates and bandits (who are implied to be a threat that will never truly go away). Nothing she does is really integral to helping Alm or saving the world so the game couldn't probably have just been all about Alm and nothing would change. 

It sounds like I gave Chapter 5 a hard time, but apart from the silliness with Fernand/Berkut/Celica, the chapter had good pacing, emotional highs an interesting speeches by Alm, Duma and Mila. It was a worthy conclusion to this (deeply flawed) game.

 

Analysis

Spoiler

 

Now that I’ve finished the review, I’d like to talk about the specific flaws and how they relate to Fates. The first point is the protagonists. Alm is often met with a neutral if not favorable reception but he bears some similarities with the widely disliked Corrin. Alm starts as a sheltered boy but the plot quickly hands him everything on a silver platter. He’s put in charge of the Deliverance even though there are more qualified individuals to lead, he easily defeats his enemies and doesn’t have any real flaws. People generally regard him as special and unique, praising him as their would-be king even before they know he is a prince. Male characters admit they are inferior to him and female characters are attracted to him. He even becomes a king of the whole continent despite not expressing a desire to be one, just like Corrin in Revelation. Alm is a preset character but he's very akin to an Avatar. Characters even look at you while talking and Alm's responses are only implied (in base conversations).

I'll put in a few quotes to demonstrate the kind of adoration he receives, only swapping out one word: Alm.

Clive: Just look at what you did in my stead. I criticized you roundly for diverting our army to save one person. But you did it anyway because you have something I do not—strength of heart. You understand what is precious and fight for it no matter the cost. I am lucky to have so wise a teacher.

Man (ZofiaCastle):

Three huzzahs for Zofia’s liberators, and three huzzahs for Avatar! Truly, he is the hero Zofia has been waiting for. And he’s every bit the champion General Mycen was! Make no mistake, the Rigelian Empire’s as fearsome a foe as they come, but with Avatar leading our forces, we needn’t fear any man!

Tobin: You’re the one who said all those years ago that Avatar was different from us. You knew he was going to do something like this one day. [...] Well, you were on to something no matter what you meant. Because now we’re starting to see that he’s much bigger than we are. I’m proud of him, but…I’m also going to miss him.

I’m confident in saying that had Alm been an Avatar in a new game, people would tear him to shreds for being a vessel for player worship. Alm isn’t a self-absorbed, hypocritical, naïve moron, so he’s still leagues above Corrin, but the similarities are there.

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Even his soul is tastier than the average person!

So if Alm is our Corrin, who gets to be Azura? That (dubious) honor goes to Celica and Rudolf. One of the major flaws that sets up the entire plot of 2/3 Fates route is that Azura knows critical information but refuses to tell anyone until you pay for the DLC route. Likewise, Celica doesn’t tell Alm why she is so upset about him leading the Deliverance and leaves, kicking off her own independent journey. Later on in chapter 4, she doesn’t disclose her intent to sacrifice herself, causing additional problems, just like our favorite gray-waves-rider. Rudolf has it even worse with his nonsensical plan to save the world by first invading another kingdom before going after the real bad guy (and keeping the whole thing a secret from Alm for no reason). The game wants us to see him (and Azura) as a tragic hero but they are just obstructive fools. Again, it’s not as bad as Fates where the first two routes only happen because Azura is an idiot. The plot in SoV would likely have gone in a similar direction had Celica been honest with her friends from the start, but we would have been spared a lot of drama. 

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I dunno, maybe people would understand how you feel if you told them.

The villains:

Topping Fates villains isn’t hard (that game set the bar so low that earthworms need to limbo under it) but most of SoV’s also fail to hit the mark. The first one you encounter is Slayde, an overtly sinister mustache twirler that I forgot existed after fighting him in Castle Zofia. The next character is Desaix who is another low-tier, ambitious fool, the Marques Darrin of the game. The last minor villain is Nuibaba, an evil witch archetype.  The 3 villains (Rudolf doesn’t count) the plot wants us to be more emotionally engaged with are Jedah, Fernand and Berkut.

Jedah comes across as a generic evil wizard but he's actually an interesting foil to Celica. While Celica embodies the kindness of Mila, Jedah is the brutality of Duma. What can be said of both characters is that they are entirely faithful to their gods' principles, and want the world to continue under them no matter what they have in store for humanity. Jedah would be an alright character if his plan wasn't so... confusing. The first time you see the Duma Faithful, they try to kidnap Celica, and then they try to kill her with a landslide, then Jedah invites her to Duma tower, but sends his men to obstruct her approach to the tower. And finally, when Celica is inside Duma tower, he reveals he was a villain all along (SURPRISE) and takes Celica's soul by force. Why would he do any of this? If he needed Celica to offer her soul freely, then he should have invited her to the tower and done nothing to impede her or give away his evil intentions. If he didn't need her consent, he should have just kidnapped her and done away with all the bargaining. The Doylist answer is the game needs battles for gameplay but this guy is a powerful wizard. There is no reason he can't just teleport Celica to the tower, with or without her consent. A bigger question perhaps is Jedah's goal. Jedah says he wants to create a world of fear and chaos by restoring Duma but Duma is only a god of evil when he's crazy. Did Jedah not understand his own god? Because he's closer to achieving his goals by leaving Duma as he is. If the game wanted to imply Jedah was gravely mistaken about the true nature of Duma, they didn't communicate that.  

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We're going to build the greatest sluice, and we'll make the Zofians pay for it!

Fernand is a really curious and infuriating dissonance of writing quality. In the DLC and memory prisms we see Fernand is an exceptionally well written and human character. He has a bro-tastic relationship with Clive, a somewhat contrary relationship with Clive’s headstrong younger sister Clair, and feelings of attraction and respect for Mathilda, who he treats warmly even though he knows she only loves Clive. He is loyal and honorable, holding himself and others to a high standard. He is the serious realist to contrast Clive’s optimistic idealism. Before the events of the game his family is murdered by angry, entitled peasants and you can really sympathize with the tragedy this man faced. So what the hell happened in the main story-line? When we meet him with Alm’s party, he shows nothing but contempt and eventually defects over the most illogical excuse imaginable. He will not deign to fight alongside people of low birth. Okay, let’s ignore that some peasants killing his family shouldn’t make him hate all peasants, and let’s also ignore that unless you’re in feudal Japan, the bulk of your army is going to be people of lower birth. The game wants to believe that a man so steadfast and loyal as Fernand (only revealed in memory prisms and DLC) is going to betray his country and everyone he knows just because Alm is not a nobleman. What. The. Fuck? I’m 100% behind Alm not being given command of the Deliverance on account of his lack of experience but even that doesn’t justify Fernand’s defection. For the rest of the game until his untimely demise, Fernand doesn’t show any redeeming qualities, instead comically worshiping extreme classist ideals when those things have really little to do with who Fernand is as a person in the past. You can’t expect me to feel bad for him (or to take Alm’s forgiveness of him seriously) when he acts like a childish snob the whole game. What the game needed to do was have Clive betray some ideal that would be completely contrary to Fernand’s existence but they failed to deliver. I can’t stress enough how well he is written in the memory prisms and DLC and how poorly he is written in the main story. The role he plays (best friend who sides against you because of a difference in values) is a good one but the reason was terrible.

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Fernand feeling euphoric whenever Berkut says something classist.

Finally we have Berkut who is a mixed bag and by far SoVs best villain. The game wants to present Berkut as a rival and foil to Alm, but he’s just never allowed to shine. Every time he fights Alm, he gets his shit slapped around and he runs away with his tail between his legs. We learn later that Rudolf had basically set him up to fail, as Alm was destined to become king of Valentia and you can almost feel bad that he got so shafted by fate. Or at least you would if he weren’t such a whiny pissbaby with zero redeeming qualities. At the best of times, Berkut is arrogant, battle hungry and angry, which makes him a poor match for the kind-hearted Rinea. Rinea could have humanized him but their personalities are so unalike and many of their interactions are just him lashing out at her when she tries to comfort him. Their final scene together is one I liked, however, and it’s a good conclusion to Berkut’s story. Berkut, who was basically raised to worship power and value station above all else, is met by Rinea while he’s having his mental break down. Rinea tries to comfort him by saying she never cared about becoming the empress, but in his impaired mental state, Berkut interprets that as her being party to Rudolfs deceptions. Then, giving into his despair, he sacrifices Rinea to Duma. I think this says a lot about just how different Rinea and Berkut were, and how little they understood each other. Rinea couldn’t understand how badly she wounded Berkut’s pride and Berkut couldn’t understand someone not wanting power or valuing love over station. It’s a tragic ending for their characters and it’s enough to make me like his character despite some mishandling in the plot. If I were to rewrite SoV, I’d give Berkut more successes in battle so he actually presents a real threat to Alm, make his relationship with Rinea warmer, and give him more scenes with people so he’s not either whining or being arrogant. He’s much more the representative of Rigelian values than Alm is, so it’s a shame they didn’t do more with that.

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Berkut, as he appears in the official Shadow of Valentia anime.

I do appreciate that they included a variety of baddies, everything from pirates, cultists, arrogant knights and a mad dragon, but ultimately, none of them are very well written in the main story.

Themes:

SoV has a number of themes, and like Fates it frequently contradicts itself. The first theme we see is that it's our actions, not our birth that determines who we are in the world. This is commented by Alm, Clive and Lukas, all coming to the same conclusion that effort is more important than being born a noble. Alm would be a good example of this kind of success story... if not for the fact he is a secret nobleman himself, not even a minor noble, but the son of the emperor of Rigel. To top it off, he and Celica (another blueblood) are chosen ones, people who fate has determined will be great. It's not people like Forsyth or Tobin who become great heroes, it's the prince of and princess of the two kingdoms who become the leaders. Big shock, right?

The next theme that contradicts itself is the idea of a compromise or accord between contrasting values. Celica (and her father in a different way) is supposed to embody the overdependence on their goddess to fix everything, and Alm is supposed to embody Rigel's warlike and self-sustaining lifestyle. The problem is, Celica is one of the few Zofians who actually agree with letting Mila handle everything. Most townsfolk you talk to say they can't count on the goddess anymore and the whole point of the Deliverance (founded and run by Zofians) are 100% behind Alm going to war against Rigel. So Celica doesn't really embody Zofian values and Alm's "I'll fix things myself" isn't exclusively a Rigelian mindset. When it comes to making a compromise between these mindsets, there is no need. Alm does nothing wrong in the plot and Celica does everything wrong, starting in chapter 4. Conversely, when it comes to their patron gods, Mila is nothing but a benevolent being but crazy!Duma and his followers are nothing but evil. By the end of the game, the continent is united under Alm but there isn't any talk of how Zofians and Rigelians, who lived under very different value systems, would get along. 

 

Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia is kind of like the Phantom Menace for Star Wars. You thought Jar Jar was annoying, and that bit with the midichlorians was kind of dumb, but overall it was an entertaining story. But on closer inspection, you find it's not just a few things wrong with the plot, everything is wrong. The heroes, the villains, the plot devices, the themes and the overarching plot are just nonsensical.

I don't hate the story or world of SoV. It has some interesting themes, great world-building and more than a few cunning bits of dialogue. I'm glad the game was made and would recommend it to others, but at the same time, as someone interested in storytelling, I can't ignore its flaws. What did you think?

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I've come to the conclusion that no FE has a good story

I feel that Awakening and Fates has made everyone look really really closely at every story

I think that Echoes is an improvement over the past 5 games

______

Celica doesn't tell anyone that she might have to sacrifice herself because she knows that many people in her party would stop her from doing so, not to mention that she grew up around religion so she was probably under the assumption that the gods were needed for humanity to survive. Not to mention the Duma faithful only attack Celica's party and not her.

 

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4 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I’m confident in saying that had Alm been an Avatar in a new game, people would tear him to shreds for being a vessel for player worship. Alm isn’t a self-absorbed, hypocritical, naïve moron, so he’s still leagues above Corrin, but the similarities are there.

i've seen people say this a lot when talking about alm but honestly I feel like it's kinda a pointless thing to say

like, the people who are actually going to criticize characters for things like that... are criticizing these things, like you did here

alm has an actual personality though, and a lot of people liked his overall character. i really doubt him being an avatar would've changed that for people who do like him

i don't think alm not being an avatar is really changing the amount of criticism people would give him

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1 hour ago, Captain Karnage said:

I've come to the conclusion that no FE has a good story

I feel that Awakening and Fates has made everyone look really really closely at every story

I think that Echoes is an improvement over the past 5 games

______

Celica doesn't tell anyone that she might have to sacrifice herself because she knows that many people in her party would stop her from doing so, not to mention that she grew up around religion so she was probably under the assumption that the gods were needed for humanity to survive. Not to mention the Duma faithful only attack Celica's party and not her.

 

I wouldn't say most Fire Emblem stories are bad. Flawed yes, but few are so flawed as say the likes of Fates and SoV. SoV is a lot better than Fates because it has many good things in addition to the bad (Fates is forgettable at the best of times and infuriating at its worst).

In regards to Celica, I could go along with her hiding her intention to sacrifice herself if it were only for Alm's sake. That would be disregarding the feelings of all her friends for one person. But if sacrificing herself could save Zofia? Well, that is something they'd all have to sit down to consider (and if they couldn't agree with it, Celica could leave for Duma tower without them).

36 minutes ago, unique said:

i've seen people say this a lot when talking about alm but honestly I feel like it's kinda a pointless thing to say

like, the people who are actually going to criticize characters for things like that... are criticizing these things, like you did here

alm has an actual personality though, and a lot of people liked his overall character. i really doubt him being an avatar would've changed that for people who do like him

i don't think alm not being an avatar is really changing the amount of criticism people would give him

I think there is greater ire reserved for avatars because of the misteps of past avatars. To give one example, people don't give Robin a hard time for being bland so much as being frequently praised and without flaws. Alm is equally guilty of being the nigh universally beloved and flawless hero.

The greatest double-standard I see is people saying Robin "stole" the spotlight of Chrom as if being a player avatar required he take a back seat to the blue-haired sword lord. No one would say that if Robin had a set appearance and name.

I understand what you mean by liking Alm for his personality, but if people who like Alm can forgive him for the things I mentioned, then they'll have to stop criticizing avatars for doing similar things.

Edited by NekoKnight
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I think people notice how much a character gets their dick stroked when the character is representing them rather than a someone who isn't. Alm gets praised a lot for his ability and it isn't as noticable as being Robin getting praised every five fucking seconds as to how a good tactican he is (hint: Robin is a shit tactican compared to every one else)

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The avatar units get praised for doing basic tasks, or in corrin's case, praised for being naïve and trusting, basically stuff that does not warrant such praise at all.

Alm gets praised because he actually accomplishes things that others could not, like turning the tide of the war. And then there's the part where if the player screws up, like letting Mathilda die before recruiting her, he doesn't get forgiven easily and actually gets chewed out instead.

Hardly a fair comparison tbh

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4 minutes ago, Korath88 said:

The avatar units get praised for doing basic tasks, or in corrin's case, praised for being naïve and trusting, basically stuff that does not warrant such praise at all.

Alm gets praised because he actually accomplishes things that others could not, like turning the tide of the war. And then there's the part where if the player screws up, like letting Mathilda die before recruiting her, he doesn't get forgiven easily and actually gets chewed out instead.

Hardly a fair comparison tbh

I'm going to disagree with you on your first point. Alm gets praised just for existing, such as when he's given the most credit for the retaking of Zofia castle despite being newly elected as leader of the Deliverance and not really being an essential piece in their victory. The Deliverance takes many victories while Alm is the leader but besides rescuing Delthea, few of their initiatives were specifically from Alm. I don't think a hero or military leader should go without praise, but few other non-avatars were so consistent in making the protagonist the greatest thing since sliced bread. The closest example I can think of is Ike, but even he faces opposition, and not just from laughably wrong people like Fernand.

I did like Clive's words to Alm if Mathilda dies. It added a lot of realism and emotion, similar to how Alm was pissed off that Mycen manipulated him into killing his own father. The problem is, Mathilda dying is something that isn't supposed to happen, so the 'canon' events have Alm be a flawless superman. I would have loved to see Alm have some early failures (give Berkut a chance to be intimidating!) that he's criticized for, which allow him to grow into a better person. Instead it's one victory after another and Alm is treated like the upcoming king even before anyone knows he's a prince.

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I did enjoy the game's plot while playing it, but after reading this I'm kicking myself a bit for that. Still, I loved the art. Except the CGI. Christ that was horrible.

I think a major problem was that there was never a really any buildup to the themes. Like Alm is all angsty about not having any family and being alone after killing Berkut(which is such a stupid name) and Rudolph, but we never see any hints to that except in the prologue. Really hard to feel for Alm as a result. Especially since I think having to care for someone because they're blood-related is stupid. Like Alm has had no good experiences with those two at all, and yet is all sad about killing them.

I also found Almelica(AlmxCelica) to have a poor basis as I gathered form the dialogue in the prologue she's been in Ram for a... month or so? Yeah, that's enough to form a lifelong crush. Gods, I hated those scenes. Forms the backbone of the plot, but I can't give a damn about it.

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I have a theory for Celica's prophetic dream that starts Act 2. When reaching the island, Mycen told her about Alm's lineage but not Rudolf's designs for Rigel. Or Nomah's sagely wisdom uncovered that truth. After all, Desaix, a Zofian chancellor, came across the information so it's not exactly the best kept secret. The better kept secret is the patricide plan, only Mycen, Rudolf, and Massena are privy to that detail. It would serve to inform how distraught she was at learning "mycen's grandson" was leading the deliverance, and how outraged she was at Alm when they meet. If she believes in her dream, then Alm is marching to his doom, and she's angry that she can't avert his fate without revealing her own lineage and thus failing her mission to find Mila and save zofia. I truly don't think the game was telling us Celica believed Alm was in the wrong in driving back Rigel, but that she couldn't tell him the truth and had to find Mila as fast as possible. She would support the Deliverance 100% if anybody else was leading it.

Unfortunately, nothing in the game corroborates or disproves this. There's no moment in Act 5 where Celica says "wait, you're Rudolf's son?". If there's anything in Act 6 to this effect, I'm curious because I haven't played past the credits, and won't until I play this separate Normal/Casual run. My first playthrough was Hard/Classic and it kicked my rear, and I imagine the rest will be even harder.

Another Celica related detail I wish the game pushed was her faith in Mila. 100% of her journey is fighting pirates, terrors, Grieth's thugs, a handful of Rigel assassins that track down pilgriming priestesses, and finally the Duma Faithful. A fine collection of the worst people you could meet in Valentia. After being antagonized by so many of these guys, it would make sense that Celica holds no faith in humanity, and that her god is the only key to salvation. Her decision to appease Jedah was also an act of faith. When people are at their lowest, they're willing to self-sacrifice. And here comes Jedah, another servant of the gods, apparently capable of saving Mila. It's naive as hell, but also plausible given her immense faith and depression at this point.

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8 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

The rest of Alm's conquest goes pretty smoothly....which is bizarre. Zofia is characterized as the country of lazy, hedonists who live cushy lives unknown to hardship, and Rigel a country known for people who work and live hard lives, their military being especially robust. So why is Zofia winning so easily? The state of Zofia is actually much worse, as a villager says in Ram village.

It's strange that people don't seem to discuss this in more depth, considering it's an example of the rightly well-received worldbuilding attempts working against the story. Zofia is on the very brink of collapse at the start of the game, yet the Deliverance seems to cut a clean swath through northern Zofia into Rigel, all the way up to Rudolf. Where is the military superiority we heard about before? Why don't we hear any complaining from the slothful and weak Zofians as they march for a long time into cold, unforgiving, enemy territory? How are these people even supplied considering all that has happened? Desaix controlled almost the entire country, yet you kill him in chapter three and he's never mentioned again save for a conversation with Slayde at the very end of chapter four; aren't there still people loyal to him, and shouldn't there be massive issue of trust wihin the Zofian army after an entire bloody civil war?

It's like you said once about equating this conflict to Ike and Crimea pushing Daein back immediately after being invaded, instead of looking for help first. Most Fire Emblem games deal with gathering support and allies, yet here Zofia, in spite of being in an arguably worse state than many other countries in the series, pushes back superior enemies just as soon as Alm shows up. I don't think Path of Radiance would've been so beloved if the Greil Mercenaries hadn't needed to help Elincia out as she negotiated with the Laguz and Begnion.

8 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Alm would be a good example of this kind of success story... if not for the fact he is a secret nobleman himself, not even a minor noble, but the son of the emperor of Rigel. To top it off, he and Celica (another blueblood) are chosen ones, people who fate has determined will be great.

Don't forget the literal wall separating the kings and the peasants in the final dungeon.

8 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Finally we have Berkut who is a mixed bag and by far SoVs best villain.

I don't think there is a best villain in this game. Berkut accomplishes nothing, throws temper tantrums and is never allowed to be humanized even though that's what I think Rinea was there for - either that or just as a plot device to show how far he had fallen towards the end. Said end is also so incredibly anti-climactic and deprives the player of any potentially satisfying conclusion.

If they had played more on Berkut being set up to fail, as you said, and he had been a bit more human and maybe more importantly threatening villain, I might've appreciated him more. As it stands, he's an asshole the game is telling me to sympathize with, even though he sold his girlfriend's soul to the devil in exchange for the power to destroy the world, and that's a big no-no. Just another tool to make Alm, our lord and savior, look better by comparison.

5 hours ago, Captain Karnage said:

Not to mention the Duma faithful only attack Celica's party and not her.

Oh yeah, that makes Jedah much more trustworthy. 

There is one main flaw in the defense of Celica in chapter four and five that's often ignored: Jedah never backs up his claims. Oh, sure, we know dragon degeneracy is a thing, but Celica doesn't. However, even if Jedah could prove to her what we know to be true, he can't prove sacrificing her soul to Duma will cure him of the crazies. He also can't prove that he'd use her soul to achieve just that. Even if Jedah hadn't tried manipulating Celica or attacked her friends - which he does, I want to remind you all - Celica still has absolutely no proof that her sacrifice would amount to anything.

 

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7 minutes ago, Thane said:

There is one main flaw in the defense of Celica in chapter four and five that's often ignored: Jedah never backs up his claims. Oh, sure, we know dragon degeneracy is a thing, but Celica doesn't. However, even if Jedah could prove to her what we know to be true, he can't prove sacrificing her soul to Duma will cure him of the crazies. He also can't prove that he'd use her soul to achieve just that. Even if Jedah hadn't tried manipulating Celica or attacked her friends - which he does, I want to remind you all - Celica still has absolutely no proof that her sacrifice would amount to anything.

I don't think this is too important. Jedah was presumably telling the truth about Celica's soul being able to save Duma, as he still goes through with the ritual. What he lied about was being able to return Mila.

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1 minute ago, NekoKnight said:

I don't think this is too important. Jedah was presumably telling the truth about Celica's soul being able to save Duma, as he still goes through with the ritual. What he lied about was being able to return Mila.

It is a big deal because if an untrustworthy guy tells you something he can't back up, you're even less likely to pay his words any heed. 

If I told you to donate money to my sick father without being able to prove he was sick, you'd think I was full of shit. If I could provide ample proof of my claims, you might consider it. 

Then there's still the fact that Jedah keeps attacking them, and like you said, lying. That whole arc is just a mess.

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Just now, Thane said:

It is a big deal because if an untrustworthy guy tells you something he can't back up, you're even less likely to pay his words any heed. 

If I told you to donate money to my sick father without being able to prove he was sick, you'd think I was full of shit. If I could provide ample proof of my claims, you might consider it. 

Then there's still the fact that Jedah keeps attacking them, and like you said, lying. That whole arc is just a mess.

Maybe in real life one should be skeptical of everything, but for these fictional worlds, sometimes you (and the characters) just need to trust information given. How many times has a FE character been told that they'll be able to slay the evil thing if they get the plot sword without having any proof the plot sword is indeed capable of doing that? People usually just go along with it.

If people needed proof to back up every mystical claim, we'd never get anything done in this series.

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1 minute ago, NekoKnight said:

Maybe in real life one should be skeptical of everything, but for these fictional worlds, sometimes you (and the characters) just need to trust information given. How many times has a FE character been told that they'll be able to slay the evil thing if they get the plot sword without having any proof the plot sword is indeed capable of doing that? People usually just go along with it.

If people needed proof to back up every mystical claim, we'd never get anything done in this series.

Said swords usually have legends attached to them, and they're very real, physical objects swirling with divine/magical power that only a few people can wield. Celica trusts the Valentian equivalent of a guy telling a child he's got candy in his van.

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It's an interesting analysis, and you do bring up a few good points. The part with Celica's charm dispelling Berkut's curse was absolutely bullshit. I normally don't mind power of friendship/love moments, but as long as there's evidence to suggest it could happen. Celica's charm was completely irrelevant to the plot. More importantly, when Alm and Celica reunited, Alm didn't give the pendant back, nor did Celica ask if he still had it. Other than that, i personally find the story to be my favorite out of all the Fire Emblem stories (a big factor is the presentation though).

I don't agree with Alm being basically an Avatar though. Like, i can see where you're going with it, but he isn't the first Lord to be perfect and all. Not that being perfect is a bad thing imo. The way i see it, i'm fine with having a perfect main character as long as their personality is likable and/or they are purposely written to be perfect (an example would be Saitama). As people have mentioned before, while Alm gets praised a lot, he doesn't get praised for his flaws, unlike a certain dragon Lord. Granted, Alm doesn't really have any flaws but again, he makes up for it with his likable personality.

While i do agree that Alm shouldn't have been able to retake Zofia Castle immediately after being made leader, this is just a thing with FE Lords in general. All Lords are capable of leading their armies against an overwhelming enemy and somehow win without casualties. Like, in Binding Blade, Roy is able to lead the demoralized Lycian Army (remember, Hector had recently passed away) and take back the "unconquerable" Castle Ostia. Or in Awakening, where Chrom and Robin can lead the Ylissian army against the full force of the Valmese army. Or in Sacred Stones, where Ephraim and just three of his buddies take over an entire castle, which btw, is described as a natural stronghold. And to be fair, Alm taking back Zofia Castle and defeating Rigel was a thing that happened in Gaiden. Some of the flaws in Echoes' story can be traced back to Gaiden.

Spoiler
8 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

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You would think Alm would be more wary of this vision considering Nuibaba deceived him earlier with a vision of Celica.

I mean, technically, if you do Celica's route first, then this scene would happen before the whole Nuibaba thing. That's actually a flaw this game has. While it's great that you can switch between both armies at any time, there are some parts of the story that are set up so that they make more sense if you play Celica's side first and then Alm's, and vice-versa.

Also, while people find it strange that Alm would forgive the likes of Berkut and Fernand, i can see why Alm would want to forgive those two. Alm knows Fernand wasn't always a classiest jerk. And Berkut is Alm's cousin. It kinda reminds me of how Minerva and Maria (well, mostly Maria, not to sure about Minerva) forgave Michalis despite all the terrible things he had done.

Oh yeah, regarding the whole theme of commoners vs nobles and how Alm saying that blood doesn't matter, i think the game was on to something there, it just didn't fully develop the theme. Because yes, Alm is secretly the heir to the Rigelian throne and there's also a wall and two swords that only those with royal blood can pass and use respectively, i think we're forgetting some things. We know that Mycen started off as a commoner before he became one of Zofia's greatest heroes. Past that, Forysth and Python, two commoners, became lieutenants in the Deliverance, and then later, the One Kingdom's Knights. Then there's Tobin, who starts off as a simple villager in the beginning and, by the end, gets his own title and castle granted to him by Alm. Then there's Gray, another simple villager, ends up marrying Clair, a lady of noble birth. So basically, while the game does say "station of birth doesn't matter", it does it on a smaller scale, perhaps, smaller than it should've been. It would've been more impactful if Alm really was just a villager but again, the original Gaiden plot prevents that.

49 minutes ago, RedRob said:

I also found Almelica(AlmxCelica) to have a poor basis as I gathered form the dialogue in the prologue she's been in Ram for a... month or so? Yeah, that's enough to form a lifelong crush

Actually, Celica had been in Ram for three years. A woman in Zofia Castle mentions that the villa where Celica and Conrad where living in was burned 10 years ago, with neither Celica nor Conrad being found. When Celica reunites with Alm, she mentions that it's been 7 years. Celica's 17 in the main story, so 17-7=10. If she's 17 and the villa was burned 10 years ago, then 17-10=7. Just by doing simple math, you can find out how long Celica was in Ram before she had to leave. Three years is a good enough time to form a lifelong crush.

Even if it was just a month, it's still better than Awakening and Fates characters falling in love after having only 4 conversations.

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42 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Actually, Celica had been in Ram for three years. A woman in Zofia Castle mentions that the villa where Celica and Conrad where living in was burned 10 years ago, with neither Celica nor Conrad being found. When Celica reunites with Alm, she mentions that it's been 7 years. Celica's 17 in the main story, so 17-7=10. If she's 17 and the villa was burned 10 years ago, then 17-10=7. Just by doing simple math, you can find out how long Celica was in Ram before she had to leave. Three years is a good enough time to form a lifelong crush.

Even if it was just a month, it's still better than Awakening and Fates characters falling in love after having only 4 conversations.

Eh, the impression I got from how they were speaking was that Celica hadn't been there that long,(Grey said she just moved there) plus I feel Celica and Alm would have talked about their brands already by then. I mean considering everyone seems to have x-ray vision when it comes to Alm's brand, he should have noticed hers fairly quickly.  At the very least, the writers could have done better in setting up the relationship.

Also, there's this trope called Writers Cannot Do Math, so it's also possible that's just a mess-up on their part. Plus there's no explicit confirmation all 3 years were spent at Ram.

 

I'm actually more okay with how those two games did it since the timeline of the supports are really vague.

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3 minutes ago, RedRob said:

Eh, the impression I got from how they were speaking was that Celica hadn't been there that long,(Grey said she just moved there) plus I feel Celica and Alm would have talked about their brands already by then. I mean considering everyone seems to have x-ray vision when it comes to Alm's brand, he should have noticed her fairly quickly.  At the very least, the writers could have done better in setting up the relationship.

Also, there's this trope called Writers Cannot Do Math, so it's also possible that's just a mess-up on their part. Plus there's no explicit confirmation all 3 years were spent at Ram.

while it could've been communicated a lot better, I think we should take actual numbers given over vague guesses that can be made off of unspecifying dialogue

Edited by unique
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3 hours ago, Thane said:

It's strange that people don't seem to discuss this in more depth, considering it's an example of the rightly well-received worldbuilding attempts working against the story. Zofia is on the very brink of collapse at the start of the game, yet the Deliverance seems to cut a clean swath through northern Zofia into Rigel, all the way up to Rudolf. Where is the military superiority we heard about before? Why don't we hear any complaining from the slothful and weak Zofians as they march for a long time into cold, unforgiving, enemy territory? How are these people even supplied considering all that has happened?

Perhaps a little blame belongs on the game have two protagonists with separate stories- tracing the development of a weak Deliverance would require a fair bit of time to accomplish. It'd start with a disorganized and ineffective Deliverance numerous generic members who are whining "War is a chore." and "Why do we have to fight? Mila will save us eventually". Over time, this organization gradually grows in strength and with the liberation of Southwest Zofia convinces Zofians that they should stop begging for Mila help and take their their lives and fates into their own hands. Acts 3 and 4 for Alm would be him pushing more and more the Rigelian emphasis on struggle and fighting onto the Zofians, possibly beyond the degree which they, and normal people, should be able to handle. If Alm is special, might as well make it into a flaw by having him not realize his immense power/merit isn't shared by all and therefore his strength-based approach is problematic.

4 hours ago, Gustavos said:

Another Celica related detail I wish the game pushed was her faith in Mila. 100% of her journey is fighting pirates, terrors, Grieth's thugs, a handful of Rigel assassins that track down pilgriming priestesses, and finally the Duma Faithful. A fine collection of the worst people you could meet in Valentia. After being antagonized by so many of these guys, it would make sense that Celica holds no faith in humanity, and that her god is the only key to salvation.

That'd be one way of reconciling her gameplay trouncing of countless foes, and distrust in her own strength in preference to that of Mila. I recall Grieth's last words as being something like "Another me is certain to spring up sooner or later". China did treat bandits sometimes as a force of nature rather than human beings- and humans can't kill nature- hence the Great Wall projects (you can't kill it, so you block it out). If Celica treated bandits and assassins as a force of nature (Terrors certainly are), then she would reasonably assume there is nothing she a mortal can do- only a goddess like Mila has the power necessary to combat nature. Therefore, solving the problems of Valentia demands Mila's return at all costs.

Another way of reconciliation would be to add a line or two wherein she states her strength is wholly the fruit of her faith in Mila. Without that faith, she cannot bear to struggle at all. Add some peasants and clerics alike who engage in devotional worship to Mila, worship which makes them out as a little too passive and trusting in Mila and fate, but which Celica nonetheless finds dear to her. After all, peasants and clerics are weak, but perhaps they downplay the potential for their self-development too much (Alm's side would show this).

 

Then we get to the question of how to treat the Rigelians- are they at all really handled decently? We only really see them with the one village on Alm's route right? Showing how these people used to struggling adapt to a more relaxed and trusting lifestyle could be of some interest.

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Hold on, you missed the lack of story content in Act 6! That was terribly important, what made you think you could just leave it out?! That Archanean Merchant escort mission was pivotal to the storyline! I was also waiting for you to explain how three fish-dragons and a bunch of ghosts managed to commandeer a ship and attack you with it, so where's that info, huh?

All joking aside, thank you and screw you - thank you because you gave me the best laugh I've had in like a month thanks to your satire and sarcasm, and screw you because I always hate when people drop reality onto my video game plots, especially if I end up agreeing with them. I'll add my half a cent.

Let's start with the obvious - Fernand. Assuming Alm's common birth being the reason he defected, shouldn't he un-defect or re-defect or however you say it the second it gets out that the Deliverance leader has the Brand, marking him as a Main Character and therefore of nobler birth than everyone else in the game? I mean, he was there too when Berkut sees the Brand, and it's not like Berkut whispered that sentence about how could you have the Brand so it's not like Fernand didn't know or anything. At best, he chose not to believe it, like Berkut, at worst…I got nothing.

Speak of the confusion, Berkut. What the heck, man? What even was this? More importantly, when are they going to make it so I can get that Lance from his final fight? That thing was sick as crap. Anyways, I actually liked this guy right up until the writers snapped him in half - I mean, his whole ideology at least partially revolved around wanting to win - no, being able to win - on his own terms, without any stupid crutches like dark magic, and then he lost to Alm for literally the second time and that whole thing got chucked out the window. As it turned out, said dark magic was useless, meaning he just threw his standards to the winds for absolutely nothing. This makes his quick descent into madness much more understandable, though - I mean, if you sacrificed your 'way', your chosen code of conduct that was supposed to guide you through the trial and hardship, and still lost, would you be able to just pull it together and tough it out? He did, however, go a little extreme with this whole "From now on life revolves around capturing Ash's Pikachu killing Alm" thing, but that's ok because in the end he's the bad guy and nobody really cares how well written the bad guy was, otherwise they'd all be written better, right? Finally, what the heck, how did HE end up with literally the only woman in the entire universe who could get sacrificed to a dark god and still forgive him? I wish I had a girl like that. Rinea's ironically way cooler on fire btw.

On a non-story-related note, the abovementioned Dagons. Holy freaking cow, the Dagons. I had to redo that level six times because I wouldn't be paying attention and Alm or Celica would get dropped. Contrary to my earlier comment, there wasn't another ship to use for space, so it wasn't like I could really separate them easily. Eventually I got past this, but in the meantime my new canon Mightiest Fire Emblem character is Skilled Angler, who manages to hook(and kill) himself another Dagon every time you go four map spaces away from him. You think it's kind of meh until you actually fight the things, and then bam, he's pretty much on par with the Fire Emblem gods, at least in my book.

Finally, though I recognize the reasons behind them not taking this route, I really wanted an Avatar to play as with S-Supports because holy (self-censored), the Whitewings are H-A-W-T. I don't even care whether or not any child characters get involved, just let me marry all of them, one for each save file.

Anyways, that's my contribution to the discussion I guess. I do want to know what you thought of Act 6 even if it only takes a sentence, though.

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I have a longer response in the works, NekoKnight, but as it's a huge wall of text and there's things I more immediately want to talk about I'll post it later.

11 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I think there is greater ire reserved for avatars because of the misteps of past avatars. To give one example, people don't give Robin a hard time for being bland so much as being frequently praised and without flaws. Alm is equally guilty of being the nigh universally beloved and flawless hero.

If I can be frank here, most previous Fire Emblem protagonists are guilty of being the nigh universally beloved and flawless hero, so singling out Alm seems pointless to me. Perhaps it boils down to a difference of opinion, but the idea of a character who is universally beloved and flawless is not to me an inherently negative thing; one of my favorite video game characters of all time, The Boss, could be described as such, with the only remote flaw she has being that she's too loyal to the United States (highlight for spoilers). Likewise, I don't think either of those things are, at the core, the issue with Corrin and Robin. (Then again, I don't really think there's one defining issue with those two, but that's another conversation for another time.)

And I can't speak for anyone else, but my issues with Robin were present long before I knew anything about Kris or before Corrin was created.

11 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

The greatest double-standard I see is people saying Robin "stole" the spotlight of Chrom as if being a player avatar required he take a back seat to the blue-haired sword lord. No one would say that if Robin had a set appearance and name.

While I can't speak for anyone but myself, Robin's not the only character I've had issues with for stealing the spotlight from a previously established main character. I've not had the chance to discuss in-depth other games and series where I had a problem with this since I started posting at Serenes outside of Ike once or twice. If the shift to Robin being the protagonist had been better established in earlier chapters rather than coming out of nowhere towards the end, or if Chrom had remained the main character but the focus of the story gradually shifted to Robin, I probably would have been less critical of it, but it wasn't. 

11 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I understand what you mean by liking Alm for his personality, but if people who like Alm can forgive him for the things I mentioned, then they'll have to stop criticizing avatars for doing similar things.

I struggled to for some time articulate why I disagree with this statement, but after some consideration I came to the conclusion that I simply don't feel you've made a strong case for why Alm and Corrin are similar, or at least similar enough to warrant any criticism aimed at them equal. I don't feel that the negative traits you're proposing that they share are equal enough in scale to justify calling them similar, and, perhaps more importantly, I feel that the problems with Corrin outside those you brought up in your post make the comparison null.

Edited by AzureSen
Good job with the unmarked non-Echoes spoilers, me
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6 hours ago, RedRob said:

Eh, the impression I got from how they were speaking was that Celica hadn't been there that long,(Grey said she just moved there) plus I feel Celica and Alm would have talked about their brands already by then. I mean considering everyone seems to have x-ray vision when it comes to Alm's brand, he should have noticed hers fairly quickly.  At the very least, the writers could have done better in setting up the relationship.

I think your impression is correct. We know for a fact that Celica was in Ram village for at most 3 years and left when she was 10 years old. Grey's comment might not be specific but "just moved here" is not going to to mean several years. I'd place my guess at her being in Ram for less than 6 months.

This is merely speculation but Celica's immediate and grave acceptance that her discovery means she needs to leave makes me think this isn't the first time she's had to abruptly leave a home. She's probably been on the run for quite a while before she got to Ram.

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Oh yeah, regarding the whole theme of commoners vs nobles and how Alm saying that blood doesn't matter, i think the game was on to something there, it just didn't fully develop the theme. Because yes, Alm is secretly the heir to the Rigelian throne and there's also a wall and two swords that only those with royal blood can pass and use respectively, i think we're forgetting some things. We know that Mycen started off as a commoner before he became one of Zofia's greatest heroes. Past that, Forysth and Python, two commoners, became lieutenants in the Deliverance, and then later, the One Kingdom's Knights. Then there's Tobin, who starts off as a simple villager in the beginning and, by the end, gets his own title and castle granted to him by Alm. Then there's Gray, another simple villager, ends up marrying Clair, a lady of noble birth. So basically, while the game does say "station of birth doesn't matter", it does it on a smaller scale, perhaps, smaller than it should've been.

I can agree that there is some greater class mobility seen through other characters but it's a serious problem when the person championing this cause is secret royalty. Yes, Tobin gets his castle, but that's because he is a childhood friend of the emperor. Valentia traded it's classism for nepotism.

30 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

If I can be frank here, most previous Fire Emblem protagonists are guilty of being the nigh universally beloved and flawless hero,

While most FE protagonists aren't directly criticized, they aren't constantly praised either. Alm has people telling him he's amazing and should be their king, all the time.

Eliwood is generally liked by people he deals with but it's not like people are constantly saying how he should be the next leader of Lycia or that he has innate qualities that make him better than the average person.

36 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

While I can't speak for anyone but myself, Robin's not the only character I've had issues with for stealing the spotlight from a previously established main character.

Robin was a main character since the start of the game, being Chrom's right hand man. Chrom's importance wanes after the first act but Robin didn't "steal the spotlight" any more than Eliwood did for Lyn.

43 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

I came to the conclusion that I simply don't feel you've made a strong case for why Alm and Corrin are similar,

A secret royal, who grows up sheltered, is given the reigns of an army despite his inexperience, and is destined to slay a mad dragon with his unique sword. He's generally adored and the only people who don't like him are not people you should take seriously. People note that he was greater than the average person since childhood. Am I talking about Alm or Corrin?

There is a difference in that Corrin is constantly excused for his faults instead of just not having them, like Alm. There is also the difference that Corrin is a self-righteous hypocrite, but I didn't say they were identical, just similar.

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