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NekoKnight's Review of the Story


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15 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

This is merely speculation but Celica's immediate and grave acceptance that her discovery means she needs to leave makes me think this isn't the first time she's had to abruptly leave a home. She's probably been on the run for quite a while before she got to Ram.

There is a flaw with this though. Celica couldn't have been in different places before Ram because that means Mycen would have to be with her. The problem is, Mycen is also taking care of Alm. For that theory to be true, this would mean Mycen would have to ride back and forward between Ram and wherever Celica was to make sure Alm and Celica are alright. And that would take too long and just be too risky in general. Now, of course, Mycen could have left Celica with someone else while he was gone, but there was no indication that Mycen knew anyone he could really trust outside of Nomah. And Celica acts like Ram was the only place she went to before going to Novis.

Plus, when you think about it, Ram is (or was) the perfect hiding spot. It's the most remote village in mainland Zofia, and one wouldn't think to go looking there. In fact, i think Slayde just happened to arrive there by pure chance. Why he was there in the first place beats me though. Maybe he got lost.

Still though.....the prologue is a bit inconsistent when you look at it real closely. Or who knows, maybe Gray was just an idiot when he said "she just moved here."

27 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Alm has people telling him he's amazing and should be their king, all the time.

At the very least, when people told him that, Alm was like "c'mon, don't exaggerate." Alm didn't accept being king until after he found out his heritage.

31 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

A secret royal, who grows up sheltered, is given the reigns of an army despite his inexperience, and is destined to slay a mad dragon with his unique sword. He's generally adored and the only people who don't like him are not people you should take seriously. People note that he was greater than the average person since childhood. Am I talking about Alm or Corrin?

You're generally talking about Alm but not Corrin (though there's little pieces of Corrin sprinkled in there). Let's break it down.

32 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

A secret royal, who grows up sheltered, is given the reigns of an army despite his inexperience, and is destined to slay a mad dragon with his unique sword.

So to start, while Alm and Corrin did grow up sheltered, Corrin (and quite a few people actually) knew he was a royal. Alm didn't and the only people who did were Mycen, Massena, Rudolf (obviously), and Desaix, somehow. Both take control of an army despite inexperience, however, regarding Corrin, it depends on the path. In Conquest and Revelation, especially the later, it's just him/her and a few buddies. It's not until a few chapters later where it grows into an actual army. In addition, Corrin was never destined to slay anything. Sure, the Yato chose him but in Birthright and Conquest, he doesn't slay a mad dragon.

36 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

He's generally adored and the only people who don't like him are not people you should take seriously.

Here's where you're talking more about Corrin though. Alm is generally adored but Corrin is straight-up worshiped by almost everyone. No one ever doubts him whereas Alm is sometimes doubted, usually by Clive in the scenes taking place after the battle at Desaix's Fort and in the scenes where Alm is talking about saving Delthea. In addition, Fernand and Berkut, the people who hated Alm, at least had motivations for it. The people who hated Corrin hated him because they are evil and thus, are required to hate the protagonist. 

42 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

People note that he was greater than the average person since childhood.

This was because Alm was trained by Mycen since childhood. Sure, Mycen trained the other kids too, but likely not to the extent he trained Alm. Corrin, on the other hand, isn't ever really stated to be greater than the average person.....outside of the dragon transformation moment but the game acts like that never happened anyway.

Like, people at least had a reason for treating Alm the way they did. What's Corrin's excuse?

I can see why you think Alm and Corrin are similar, but at the same time, i feel that the differences are big enough to where they aren't similar.

On a side note, there is the thing where Nuibaba said Alm's soul was more special, that's because Alm had the Brand. Celica has the Brand too and Jedah said something similar about her soul.

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2 hours ago, Armagon said:

Still though.....the prologue is a bit inconsistent when you look at it real closely. Or who knows, maybe Gray was just an idiot when he said "she just moved here."

I'm telling ya, the writers can't do math. That or they didn't bother to check with each other.

While Gray might have been exgerating, I rewatched the prologue, and their brands are brought up by Alm saying and I'm copying straight from the text here "..Oh hey! See this? We have the same mark."

So unless Alm is blind, Celica couldn't have been there long, otherwise Alm would have noticed her brand by then.

Edited by RedRob
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Alm becoming the leader of the Deliverance is exponentially better handled than it is in Gaiden. Clive's leadership is implied to be impaired by the fact Mathilda is being held hostage, and the morale of the army is suffering because of his losses. He doesn't want Mycen to be the new leader because he's a commoner; it's because of his reputation as a soldier; in fact, he's a count, so he (and his grandson, by extension) are actually nobility. When Clive believes that Alm is actually a commoner, he says he's made a terrible error (mind you, this is just after Desaix has been killed and his lover rescued). In terms of the job description, Clive says that all Alm needs to do is lead the army, he will handle everything else. Alm recaptured the Southern Outpost, so it's not anything he hasn't already proven he's capable of. Alm essentially being the mascot of the Deliverance, and piggybacking off Mycen's rep, means he will get two lion's share of the credit, but I think an in-universe justification makes it less egregious.

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9 hours ago, RedRob said:

I'm telling ya, the writers can't do math. That or they didn't bother to check with each other.

While Gray might have been exgerating, I rewatched the prologue, and their brands are brought up by Alm saying and I'm copying straight from the text here "..Oh hey! See this? We have the same mark."

So unless Alm is blind, Celica couldn't have been there long, otherwise Alm would have noticed her brand by then.

I mean, to be fair, we do know that Celica was depressed for sometime, and just didn't want to be friends with anyone (she called Alm a clod). At a guess, for some time after arriving in Ram, Celica would just keep her distance with Alm and the Ram Villagers, and it wasn't only until later that she started opening up.

It is worth pointing out that Celica's Brand is less noticeable than Alm's. Alm's Brand is on the back of his hand whereas Celica's is on the palm of her hand. But that's just a stretch at this point.

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On 6/20/2017 at 2:45 AM, NekoKnight said:

Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia is kind of like the Phantom Menace for Star Wars.

Okay to just clarify because you either have a oddly high opinion of Phantom Menace or a oddly low opinion of SOV. Do seriously think one the worst films to ever grace the silver screen is of comparable quality to SOV or are just saying they just fall apart similarly not that SOV story is of comparable quality.

I will have some thoughts to share on your analysis later when I have some time but for now I just wanted to ask this question.

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14 minutes ago, Locke087 said:

Okay to just clarify because you either have a oddly high opinion of Phantom Menace or a oddly low opinion of SOV. Do seriously think one the worst films to ever grace the silver screen is of comparable quality to SOV or are just saying they just fall apart similarly not that SOV story is of comparable quality.

I will have some thoughts to share on your analysis later when I have some time but for now I just wanted to ask this question.

I meant to say that like the Phantom Menace, SoV isn't just one or two flaws in an otherwise great story. There are major flaws all throughout, from start to finish.

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I think the story might have benefited if the conspiracy to remove the gods was a little bigger in both kingdoms

With Rudolf intending to lose to Alm there's the implication that the war is rigged in Alm's favor but we really just have Rudolf's own word on that possibility and not much more. The Rigelian war effort being shown to fail on purpose could explain Alm's string of victories. Characters talking about how the Rigelians act oddly, generals loyal to Rudolf dying with a smile on their face or mumbling its all going according to plan would be a nice way of showing Rudolf is pulling his weight too rather then merely hoping Alm somehow manages to win.

Clive could have promoted Alm not just as a crafty PR stunt but to also to ensure he would be powerful enough to eventually face Rudolf and then Duma. This could also give him a far less ridiculous reason to start doubting Alm. Part of the plan or not he would know he just gave Sophia to ''Rudolf's brat''. That's more reason to worry then Alm merely not being Mycen's grandson. 

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1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

With Rudolf intending to lose to Alm there's the implication that the war is rigged in Alm's favor but we really just have Rudolf's own word on that possibility and not much more. The Rigelian war effort being shown to fail on purpose could explain Alm's string of victories. Characters talking about how the Rigelians act oddly, generals loyal to Rudolf dying with a smile on their face or mumbling its all going according to plan would be a nice way of showing Rudolf is pulling his weight too rather then merely hoping Alm somehow manages to win.

Reminds me of Super Robot Taisen Original Generation. The first game has the Divine Crusaders- the main villain for most of the game- is led by a guy named Bian Zoldark who leaves openings in his plans with the hope that someone will take advantage of them. His basic goal- prepare and unite humanity before the Aerogater aliens invade Earth. If someone stronger than him and the DC should emerge- they'll be entrusted with the future of humankind. However, if no such contender arises, he'll push on and do the uniting and defending himself. While a few members share wholeheartedly Bian's idealism and goals, there are those who don't get the "if someone should be stronger than us in a fair fight, we submit", and there are others still who just want to conquer and kill (which is what the DC devolves into once Bian dies).

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2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

With Rudolf intending to lose to Alm there's the implication that the war is rigged in Alm's favor but we really just have Rudolf's own word on that possibility and not much more. The Rigelian war effort being shown to fail on purpose could explain Alm's string of victories. Characters talking about how the Rigelians act oddly, generals loyal to Rudolf dying with a smile on their face or mumbling its all going according to plan would be a nice way of showing Rudolf is pulling his weight too rather then merely hoping Alm somehow manages to win.

This needed to happen, considering the sheer power difference between Rigel and Zofia even before the latter was all but broken. Instead, we get the opposite, with Jedah and Berkut both being allowed to go ahead with their plans to stop the Deliverance - of course, we don't know if Jedah wanted to stop them, but Tatarrah was still there with Delthea going ham, so it's not like we've got any reason to believe he didn't.

Even if Rudolf's plan made sense, which I don't for the record think it does, it still bugs me that the man needed to have borderline prophetic powers in order to predict what was going to happen, and at the end of the day, he has to hope the prophecy or the Brand or what have you will be enough to unseal the Falchion from Mila in order to stop Duma. All that nonsensical planning could've gone to hell if destiny hadn't chosen to play along, and that's not what I'd call believing in mandkind's strength.

14 hours ago, RedRob said:

I'm telling ya, the writers can't do math. That or they didn't bother to check with each other.

While Gray might have been exgerating, I rewatched the prologue, and their brands are brought up by Alm saying and I'm copying straight from the text here "..Oh hey! See this? We have the same mark."

So unless Alm is blind, Celica couldn't have been there long, otherwise Alm would have noticed her brand by then.

It's bizarre because it's just an unimportant NPC who says this, which seems to contradict the prologue where the main characters talk about it.

No matter how long time Celica spent in Ram, however, we know she was 10 when she left, and I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the fact that Alm and Celica both stayed madly in love with each other for seven years of not seeing each other as kids. Even if people are going to inevitably chime in to say they know a couple who've been together since they were literally infants (because poor writing in Fire Emblem is always excused if it has anything to do with mental illnesses or something that might be able to happen in real life), their relationship is just not conveyed in a believable enough fashion for the players. Their best interaction is when they're kids, and we get to see that a grand total of one time; the rest is either them meeting under pressuring circumstances or loudly saying how much they miss the other. I'm more inclined to believe they want to pork each other because that vague prophecy demands it.

16 hours ago, Armagon said:

At the very least, when people told him that, Alm was like "c'mon, don't exaggerate." Alm didn't accept being king until after he found out his heritage.

Which is completely silly, if we're being honest. Even in the face of a lot of clues and the Royal Sword, Alm is in complete denial. At the very least he should've wondered if he was Lima's bastard, considering the entire country knows he spent a lot of time with women. I know, I know, "no heirs survived", but at the end of chapter two he believes that one of the Zofian princesses has survived, so at least showing some doubts instead of shaking them off within two minutes could add for some interesting character drama.

16 hours ago, Armagon said:

Corrin was never destined to slay anything.

Except in Azura's song which was written before their birth. Kind of like how Alm has a prophecy written about him.

16 hours ago, Armagon said:

Alm is sometimes doubted, usually by Clive in the scenes taking place after the battle at Desaix's Fort

Which is, again, silly because of the Royal Sword. This should be something Clive comments on.

There's also the fact that Clive's doubts only serve to make Alm look better and Clive worse by comparison - Clive was the one who put Alm in charge, and the latter is completely fine with Clive showing doubts now, rather than getting annoyed that the man wanted to use his family name just to boost morale, and starts doubting him even after they had taken back Zofia Castle.

16 hours ago, Armagon said:

and in the scenes where Alm is talking about saving Delthea.

Again, this only serves to make Alm look better by comparison. Alm has to tell Clive it's the same as saving a noblewoman, that one's station shouldn't dictate if a person is deserving of help or not. After Delthea has been rescued, Clive kisses Alm's boots and calls him a "teacher" of all things.

16 hours ago, Armagon said:

This was because Alm was trained by Mycen since childhood.

You think that's why Gray says something like Alm and Celica being different from them "in every way"? Because they received training from Mycen? This is such a silly argument, and I hesitate to call it even that.

 

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I keep wondering about Berkut's intended role from Rudolf's perspective. Did Rudolf train him to be the next emperor just to avoid any suspicions or he was a legitimate back up successor who would have taken Rudolf's place if Alm failed? Was he always intended to be another sacrifice for the sake of the great plan or Rudolf overestimated Berkut's mental strength and expected him to understand the whole deal and accept Alm? Massena's words at least implied that Rudolf wanted Alm to spare Berkut.

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4 minutes ago, Cat Villager said:

I keep wondering about Berkut's intended role from Rudolf's perspective. Did Rudolf train him to be the next emperor just to avoid any suspicions or he was a legitimate back up successor who would have taken Rudolf's place if Alm failed? Was he always intended to be another sacrifice for the sake of the great plan or Rudolf overestimated Berkut's mental strength and expected him to understand the whole deal and accept Alm? Massena's words at least implied that Rudolf wanted Alm to spare Berkut.

Personally I think Berkut was an unintended piece on the board for Rudolf which he never quite figured out what to do with. Its said Rudolf raised Berkut as his own after his parents died and that he seemed to enjoy raising him after leaving behind his son. Perhaps he never really thought about his sibling dying so soon, felt it was his duty to raise Berkut despite the complications and never came up with a good place for him to fit in the plan. 
Its also possible Rudolf never told Berkut because he accurately understood his (lack of)mental strength. Berkut seems like he'd ride out to murder Alm if he knew the truth.

Alms probably right when saying Rudolf had the best of intentions for Berkut but in practice Rudolf may have known he couldn't avoid doing Berkut wrong. 

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34 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Berkut seems like he'd ride out to murder Alm if he knew the truth.

Good thing that never happens in the game.

Edited by Thane
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4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I think Berkut was an unintended piece on the board for Rudolf which he never quite figured out what to do with. Its said Rudolf raised Berkut as his own after his parents died and that he seemed to enjoy raising him after leaving behind his son. Perhaps he never really thought about his sibling dying so soon, felt it was his duty to raise Berkut despite the complications and never came up with a good place for him to fit in the plan. 
Its also possible Rudolf never told Berkut because he accurately understood his (lack of)mental strength. Berkut seems like he'd ride out to murder Alm if he knew the truth.

Alms probably right when saying Rudolf had the best of intentions for Berkut but in practice Rudolf may have known he couldn't avoid doing Berkut wrong. 

I think Rudolf showed a callous disregard for Berkut, basically throwing him under the bus for Alm's sake. Had Berkut been privy to Rudolf's plan, he could have handled the transition with more grace but he was raised to think he should defeat Alm or die trying. There is no way Rudolf couldn't have known that this would end in tragedy.

Rudolf was able to tell a random amnesiac (Zeke) about following the barer of the brand but he couldn't tell Berkut.

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Just now, NekoKnight said:

I think Rudolf showed a callous disregard for Berkut, basically throwing him under the bus for Alm's sake. Had Berkut been privy to Rudolf's plan, he could have handled the transition with more grace but he was raised to think he should defeat Alm or die trying. There is no way Rudolf couldn't have known that this would end in tragedy.

Rudolf was able to tell a random amnesiac (Zeke) about following the barer of the brand but he couldn't tell Berkut.

Rudolf seemed to outright dislike him. Was probably laughing to himself every time Berkut jobbed to Alm

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I was contemplating even commenting on this ( dont want to add to bashing if I dont have anything constructive to add), but I have a few things I want to either add to the criticism or say as a counter point.

First off, Slayde. I think the big thing with Slayde that he was meant to come off as a dumbass and a coward. I can see why he is seen as the typical mustache twirler, he has that persona about him afterall especially in design, but let me give an alternative to his character. Slayde overall is meant to represent the cowardly types in a war. The types that will betray and turn traitor if it means they get to live another day or if it means they get something in return. That is Slayde. Slayde starts off being a dick to kids. This isnt because Slayde's favorite pass time is kicking puppies and stealing kids lollipops, its because Slayde sees himself as hot shit for being in such a high position. Because of this he takes advantage of it and just becomes a dumbass (if you haven't noticed with his decisions, Slayde isn't exactly the brightest tool in the shed).  He acts like a dick to children because he doesnt see the advantage of being manipulative and tricking them by being nice. Instead he is just going to flaunt his position as a royal knight and be a dick to people smaller, younger, and of lower birth to him.

To be the typical Saturday Morning Cartoon villain they need a motive that is a bit absurd to begin with. Conquer the world, destroy the world, supreme power, or have none at all and just exist to be evil (looking at Hans and Iago there.) Slayde doesnt show any of that. Ultimately Slayde's motives are Slayde, Slayde, Slayde, and Slayde. He is about himself first and foremost, and lastly. He does whatever will make him live another day, and will side with whoever he thinks will ultimately be on the winning side. As far as Alm's point of view of the story goes, yes he is entirely a villain. But when you look at the larger picture of the conflict as a whole, Slayde isnt a villain. He isnt a good guy either, but he is entirely a neutral force out for himself. He doesnt care for helping Duma, he doesnt care for saving Zofia, he doesnt care for Rigel's conquer of Zofia, he cares about whoever is going to give him the biggest payout and who will give him the chance to make it to tomorrow. If that meant joining a traveling circus and fighting a lion for the rest of his life, Slayde would probably take it. If it was anyone else other than Alm leading the Deliverance, Slayde would of likely joined with them once it became clear what was going to happen, or at least would of tried. Slayde isnt some lawful evil or chaotic evil character out for the conquest of the world or to become supreme leader, Slayde is entirely about himself and his own personal gain. He is the definition of being a True Neutral character, and at his worst, Neutral Evil, but I dont think he is meant to be a mustache twirling Cobra Commander type.

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I fully agree with the issue with Alm. Another thing I want to add, is that I think Alm ultimately destroys one of the biggest themes and concepts about this story. The idea behind the story was that Alm and Celica were two opposite ideals on the same coin. Celica was about finding the way to stop the conflict with the least amount of violence. She was looking for the peaceful resolution to it all, even if it was ultimately naive. Alm on the otherhand is trying to end the conflict the old fashion way. Through bashing and cutting down your enemy and protecting those who you think are innocent. If it means cutting down anyone standing in his way for there to be peace in the end, so be it. He is meant to be a little more intelligent version of Walhart. They are essentially Mila and Duma in human form. They ultimately represent their ideals. Unfortunately, Alm being perfect and always right destroys that concept. Instead of being two sides of the same coin, you end up with a story of one being ultimately right and one being wrong. With Celica unfortunately getting shoved aside for Alm's perfectness.

In a way it made me appreciate Celica more as a character because she was flawed. Unlike Alm she makes mistakes as she goes along and even gets called out for it be just about everyone in her group. That made Celica's group as a whole stronger story wise for me as well because they were all willing to follow her to the end, but were also willing to call her out on her shit when it was needed. I didnt have as much of an issue with her argument with Alm at the end of Chapter 2. I think it worked just fine, and was meant to be naive and a bit silly on her part. She is seeing, at least in her mind, the worst possible outcome become true. Alm is leading the Deliverance, and is bringing the fight to Rigel. She just had a vision of the ending of this, Alm ultimately being killed. Obviously we know this doesnt actually happen, but she thinks it will. So of course she is going to be angry with Alm, she is worried he is going down that path and she is trying everything she can to convince him otherwise. It was naive and stupid on her part for sure, but how old is Celica again? 17? When has a love struck 17 year old ever made the intelligent and logical decision?

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I definitely agree with Jedah. I think one of the largest issues with Jedah was his depiction and some of his lines. They went way too, as you put it, scooby doo villain with his appearance. What they should of done is make him appear more normal and reasonable. And tone down his evil laughter and cartoonishly evil voice.They should of tried to go the route of making him look like either someone who can be reasoned with or maybe even the route of someone looking even heroic.

Spoiler

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Human form, which looks like a typical human noble. He may look a little evil to the player, but can reasonably be explained to be someone who may be able to be trusted to a character. Afterall, he looks like a noble.

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After transformation. Looks evil as hell, holy shit kill it with fire. Essentially Jedah.

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Jedah just for reference.

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Believe it or not, this guy is actually a bad guy. He looks like a hero, looks like he may even be the main hero of the story, but nope. He is evil. This is essentially what Jedah should of been.

I think that was one of the biggest things standing in his way. He looked way too evil. They needed to go with a reasonable appearance for the character, they needed to make him look almost even heroic in a way. Afterall he is in service to a deity like figure. In no way do we get the idea that Duma was an evil person like Grima was, so he could of looked almost like a stoic priest type without any issues. And his voice didnt help much either, all the evil laughs and everything was just too much. Again, a calmer voice would work here. Even if they wanted to have a rougher, gravely voice they could of made him still seem good by just not having all the stupid evil laughs and silly remarks.

And then comes the problem with his plans. As if it couldnt get much worst. You pretty much covered it so I wont even say any more on that, but that didnt help much at all.

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Again, I have to agree with Fernand. I didnt buy the DLC at all, wasnt interested as SoV's gameplay wasnt good enough to entice me to buy whole other maps. Dungeons, definitely, but not just a map. So I skipped out, but even without the context of the DLC I had issues with him turning to Rigel. It made no sense considering that he ultimately wanted the same thing as the Deliverance, just not how they were going about it. I would of expected him to become his own force on his own. Actually, he could of been the perfect set up as a rival force to the Deliverance, gathering the attention of the nobles and some of the royal forces and gathering them together in his own army. Then we may of actually seen a true rival to Alm and had some interesting situations there. That would of made more sense than him turning on Zofia as  whole because someone he didnt like was made the leader. Talk about being a little whiny bitch. It takes the sympathy they want you to feel for his family being killed by peasants and throws it out the window.

As far as Berkut goes, he could of been fixed entirely by having him actually seem formidable. He was supposed to be Alm's opposite in Rigel. In a way, he was even supposed to be a glimpse at what Alm would of been like if his father kept him in Rigel, but ultimately it all fell flat because he got his ass handed to him on a stick every time he moved. Iago was a more formidable opponent because at least he kept messing with Corrin along the way and seemed like a powerful enough mage (and staff savant, that bastard.) That all could of been fixed easily. Hell, we didnt even need to have him slap around Alm to make that happen, he just needed to defeat a few other characters or do something that made him seem dangerous. Again, easy fix which is unfortunate.

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I will say that I think overall Sov's story is probably one of the best Fire Emblem stories for me. I think it overall was enjoyable despite its many flaws. I rank it above Awakening but below Radiant Dawn/Path of Radiance for me as far as story. It was a step in the right direction though when compared to Fates, though learning that this was being worked on alongside Fates made me think that working on both at the same time ultimately harmed both game's stories with the various teams being spread too thin. I always said Fates story felt like a victim of being rushed out the door to get something out as fast as possible, and now I know why.

Edited by Tolvir
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9 hours ago, Tolvir said:

I was contemplating even commenting on this ( dont want to add to bashing if I dont have anything constructive to add), but I have a few things I want to either add to the criticism or say as a counter point.

I hope people don't take my review as an attempt to rally people behind negativity. The goal is to look at the game as a whole and point out that it's only better than its predecessor because Fates is just that much worse. All discussion is welcome here.

9 hours ago, Tolvir said:

First off, Slayde. I think the big thing with Slayde that he was meant to come off as a dumbass and a coward. I can see why he is seen as the typical mustache twirler,

Yes, Slayde has a character, but it's not so complicated. He's an arrogant coward who only cares about himself. In short, he's a jerk to people for no other reason than he's a jerk. Had his prologue synopsis been "Mr. Meanie tries to steal all the berries from the woodland creatures so he can have them all to himself" it would be in-character for a selfsh jerk, but still Saturday morning cartoon levels of villainy.

I can take him being a jerk to Clive or Mycen because he knows them and has a reason to express his contempt, but a couple of kids who he's never met? Naw, that's mustache twirling territory.

9 hours ago, Tolvir said:

I think Alm ultimately destroys one of the biggest themes and concepts about this story.

While Alm being perfect and praised constantly is a little obnoxious in itself, I feel the themes being contradicted is te greater flaw. At the end of the game, Duma says that the new Valentia should have Duma's (Alm) strength and Mila's (Celica) compassion, but Alm has compassion in spades. It doesn't help that Celica's journey basically amounts her becoming a damsel in distress and her values of depending on the gods being all wrong.

9 hours ago, Tolvir said:

Again, I have to agree with Fernand. I didnt buy the DLC at all, wasnt interested as SoV's gameplay wasnt good enough to entice me to buy whole other maps.

I heavily encourage you to watch the DLC chapters and read/listen to the DLC supports. They are excellently written and make Fernand into a likeable, human character. I do like your suggestion that Fernand lead his own rival group to maintain his own values. His outright betrayal of Zofia is out of character.

9 hours ago, Tolvir said:

Fates made me think that working on both at the same time ultimately harmed both game's stories with the various teams being spread too thin

I think Fates suffered more from that arrangment than SoV did. Granted, SoV had Gaiden to build off of but Fates felt hollow, like they made a game out of the first draft, just the scaffolding of a real story.

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28 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

While Alm being perfect and praised constantly is a little obnoxious in itself, I feel the themes being contradicted is te greater flaw. At the end of the game, Duma says that the new Valentia should have Duma's (Alm) strength and Mila's (Celica) compassion, but Alm has compassion in spades. It doesn't help that Celica's journey basically amounts her becoming a damsel in distress and her values of depending on the gods being all wrong.

I think it's notable that Duma doesn't acknowledge Celica, even though she addresses him. Celica, like Lima, Rudolf and Berkut, is meant to show the weakness of a ruler who doesn't have a healthy balance of strength and compassion. Alm is the Rigellian heir, raised in Zofia in ignorance of the world around him, He was designed by Rudolf and Mycen to be the bridge between Duma's and Mila's philosophies.

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2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I hope people don't take my review as an attempt to rally people behind negativity. The goal is to look at the game as a whole and point out that it's only better than its predecessor because Fates is just that much worse. All discussion is welcome here.

Yes, Slayde has a character, but it's not so complicated. He's an arrogant coward who only cares about himself. In short, he's a jerk to people for no other reason than he's a jerk. Had his prologue synopsis been "Mr. Meanie tries to steal all the berries from the woodland creatures so he can have them all to himself" it would be in-character for a selfsh jerk, but still Saturday morning cartoon levels of villainy.

I can take him being a jerk to Clive or Mycen because he knows them and has a reason to express his contempt, but a couple of kids who he's never met? Naw, that's mustache twirling territory.

While Alm being perfect and praised constantly is a little obnoxious in itself, I feel the themes being contradicted is te greater flaw. At the end of the game, Duma says that the new Valentia should have Duma's (Alm) strength and Mila's (Celica) compassion, but Alm has compassion in spades. It doesn't help that Celica's journey basically amounts her becoming a damsel in distress and her values of depending on the gods being all wrong.

I heavily encourage you to watch the DLC chapters and read/listen to the DLC supports. They are excellently written and make Fernand into a likeable, human character. I do like your suggestion that Fernand lead his own rival group to maintain his own values. His outright betrayal of Zofia is out of character.

I think Fates suffered more from that arrangment than SoV did. Granted, SoV had Gaiden to build off of but Fates felt hollow, like they made a game out of the first draft, just the scaffolding of a real story.

Fates definitely suffers more, especially when considering the amount of stuff the "guest writer" I guess you could call him gave. It forced them to do what should of been done with surgical precision, with a cleaver instead. 

I can see what you are getting at with Slayde in that prologue. It was ultimately a little silly overall, but I think he should be given a few more props than he has for being a bit of an interesting character. I actually enjoyed every encounter with him, I feel the cowardly turncoat type was interesting to have in FE especially when compared to characters like Camus who are prettt much the exact opposite of that idea. 

I think Alm being more compassionate is a piece of him being depicted as perfect. In his original version, as little as we knew of it, he wasn't extremely compassionate. In this version he was, and I think it was partly due to the fact that they wanted him to seem so flawless. 

I will definitely have to watch videos on the DLC. Again, while I don't see it worthwhile to buy because it's just a map with some poor gameplay, the supports and story around it really interest me. Good to hear that it's well written too. 

And don't top my first comment as anything against you, I just didn't want to say anything about SoV unless I had anything constructive to add. Ultimately I did, but I didn't want to say anything without actually adding anything to keep this from becoming like Fates did where it was pretty much everyone just echoing what others were saying over and over.

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13 hours ago, Tolvir said:

I definitely agree with Jedah. I think one of the largest issues with Jedah was his depiction and some of his lines.

(Forgot to respond to this point)

While a more neutral appearance would help, I find that to be the least problematic thing about him. Jedah, and the rest of the Duma faithful, are shown time and time again to be cruel and sinister. Even outside of the white hair and blue skin, they really seem like they belong to a religion of evil.

Jedah has an okay-ish start by telling Celica that she could help both Rigel and Zofia by sacrificing herself, but he then blows it by continuing to attack her friends and being sinister. Rather than act like an evil wizard who delights in the suffering of men, he should do things that build trust. Imagine that when Berkut does his mirror trick, it was Jedah who dispelled it instead of Celica's charm? Jedah would be actively helping de-escalate the situation instead of appearing like he was holding Alm hostage.

2 hours ago, David Boey said:

I think it's notable that Duma doesn't acknowledge Celica, even though she addresses him. Celica, like Lima, Rudolf and Berkut, is meant to show the weakness of a ruler who doesn't have a healthy balance of strength and compassion. Alm is the Rigellian heir, raised in Zofia in ignorance of the world around him, He was designed by Rudolf and Mycen to be the bridge between Duma's and Mila's philosophies.

I can acknowledge that Alm was being groomed to be the bridge between nations (for as little as we see of Alm's upbringing), but Celica's role still feels a bit lopsided. She and Alm are the children of fate, barers of the brand, two people who are destined to be together and shape the new era. But Celica isn't needed for fate, she isn't needed to temper Alm's (Duma) fury. Alm is the complete package and Celica could be cut from the story.

I like that both Jedah and Celica represent the negative aspects of following the will of the gods, but I think Alm should have lacked Celica's compassion so they actually need each other to realize the ideal country.

Edited by NekoKnight
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20 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I can acknowledge that Alm was being groomed to be the bridge between nations (for as little as we see of Alm's upbringing), but Celica's role still feels a bit lopsided. She and Alm are the children of fate, barers of the brand, two people who are destined to be together and shape the new era. But Celica isn't needed for fate, she isn't needed to temper Alm's (Duma) fury. Alm is the complete package and Celica could be cut from the story.

I like that both Jedah and Celica represent the negative aspects of following the will of the gods, but I think Alm should have lacked Celica's compassion so they actually need each other to realize the ideal country.

What if it was Celica's idea to try and heal Duma? Jedah would have a good reason to try and kill Celica then. Like you said, Duma being crazy is a good thing for him. Then when she reaches Duma Tower, in order to be rid of her, he suggests giving Duma her soul might work.

If Alm lacked compassion I feel he'd just be another Berkut. Rudolf's plan only makes sense if Alm is groomed to be somebody who can rule well on his own.

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2 hours ago, David Boey said:

If Alm lacked compassion I feel he'd just be another Berkut.

Which could make for an interesting contrast, since Alm would need Celica to temper him, while Berkut didn't listen to Rinea. Instead, Alm is perfect, Berkut is an incompetent villain who accomplishes nothing, and Celica is borderline unnecessary to the main plot.

Edited by Thane
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On June 20, 2017 at 5:31 AM, Lady Sansa said:

Okay.

Pretty much. 

Also, comparing Alm to Corrin is a low blow, mate. I think youll be hard pressed to find anyone who would agree to that comparison. Alm's not perfect. Yeah Clive making him leader of the Deliverence like that was weird af. (And I initially thought he knew Alms real identity for a long time. Prolly would have worked better if he had.) But this isnt Corn levels of bullshit. At least we had moments where Alm did junk to prove himself to the squad and Clive. Like rescuing Clair. Instead of Corrin who is just that special, no one questions them. 

I also go into this game knowing how old the original story is. Its like 25 years old jrpg story. Its not always going to make perfect sense, but honestly? Saying its near to Fates level is something i cant and wont agree with. 

Edited by Loki Laufeyson
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Oh, one minor thing about Rigel. It's supposed to be a land that respects strength but I don't think they ever mentioned any self-made people who rose up in ranks because of their abilities that have nothing to do with social status. Zeke is a very special snowflake case so he doesn't count. Berkut's attitude suggest that rigelian nobles have pretty similar views to zofians on the subject of social classes.
So, basically, not only rigelian commoners have to work hard for crops but Duma's philosophy has nothing that could reward them, not even better opportunities. You can be proud about being more hardworking than average zofian but it doesn't make you less hungry and cold. 

Edited by Cat Villager
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On 6/21/2017 at 10:44 PM, NekoKnight said:

Rudolf was able to tell a random amnesiac (Zeke) about following the barer of the brand but he couldn't tell Berkut.

That's roughly on par with Bravely Default- where Braev tells his adopted son about the big secret, but not his flesh and blood daughter. At least Berkut would've possibly been all envious and jealous of Alm and thus would've endangered Alm's life. Braev had nothing to fear from telling Edea, heck there wouldn't be a battle against Braev had Edea known the truth (she still might've defected though- but only due to Braev's minions going immorally beyond what the big secret requires).

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