NekoKnight's Review of the Story

[Interdimensional Observer]

Plus, when Alm and Celica are apart, and they could drift more and more into being Duma-esque and Mila-esque respectively. Their reunion at the end of Act 2 would be the two of them looking at each other and realizing the differences between them. With a recognition of these differences being a kernel upon which they'd begin to develop what they lack. Make Alm not compassionate prior the reunion, with him gradually gaining it afterwards to emulate what he didn't agree with, but found good in Celica, while Celica takes up more aggressiveness/activeness from Alm, despite her general deference to Mila for solving problems and her pacifism.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Thanks for writing about this, NekoKnight; it was an enjoyable read. I've enjoyed reading others' insights and re-writes too.

My own take is that Echoes' plot is, sadly, rather terrible. I actually like both Awakening and Fates more on this front. Yes, they have their share of screwups, but IMO they also do some good things as well (if you disagree, that's fine; I don't really want to debate either of those games here). Echoes, I feel, doesn't even do much that's good; it's kind of a generic FE plot that then screws up several very important things. The main things it does well (setting-building) the narrative then proceeds to either not make use of or actively piss on (like how Rigel, the country of "strength" just gets punked by the food-starved Zofian army).

 

My three biggest complaints are:

-Celica's sacrifice is not built up as believable and makes her come across as incredibly stupid, and it's dragged out to pretty much be the only plot point of the second half of her path.

-Rudolf's plan is batshit nonsense. He starts a war and kills tens of thousands of people for an incredibly flimsy reason and the game tries to act like he's a cool dude anyway.

-Berkut's redemption after what he did is so gross as to leave an awful taste in my mouth. There's a lot wrong with his relationship with Rinea and how the game kinda treats her as an accessory to Berkut (while not developing their relationship at all), but that ending was a new low for sure.

 

Beyond that there just aren't many positives to me. As usual for FE it has some pretty fun characters in there who I enjoy, so it's not devoid of writing worth, but there's not much to like in the actual plot, and reading about these re-writes even more makes me see how almost everything (the re-taking of Zofia and conquest of Rigel, Alm and Celica's relationship, the game's themes, Celica's route and plot role in general) could have been done notably better.

[NekoKnight]

On 07/04/2017 at 11:48 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Echoes, I feel, doesn't even do much that's good; it's kind of a generic FE plot that then screws up several very important things. The main things it does well (setting-building) the narrative then proceeds to either not make use of or actively piss on (like how Rigel, the country of "strength" just gets punked by the food-starved Zofian army).

I think SoV shows a game can work with a simple plot if the themes are strong. Had Fates been a simple war between two countries over resources with some consistant themes (family, choices having conesquences, moral relativism, what have you), it would have been golden. Likewise, it wouldn't bug me that SoV is just A country vs B country if the themes were done well. SoV's themes (finding a middle ground between contrasting values and breaking free of the negative influences of the gods) are excellent on paper but they fail in the execution. I might liken SoVs themes to a gymnast that does an elaborate series of flips but faceplants at the end. It would have been awesome, but ouch, that landing.

[Armagon]

You know, i want to point out that while Echoes' plot does have it's problems, i think the reason most people (including myself) aren't being more critical about it is because it's a massive improvement over Fates' plot Echoes's plot, at it's core, is still Gaiden's plot, and that game was released 25 years ago. A lot of Echoes's flaws such as Rudolf's plan can be linked back to Gaiden. A lot of people say Alm should've been aggressive, but he was never aggressive to begin with, the closest thing to being aggressive in Gaiden is the "I'll crush these bastards" line. The biggest evidence that Alm wasn't aggressive in Gaiden is this

Quote

Rudolf:

I see, so you’ve come at last…
Whatever happens now is inevitable. Shall I not witness this final battle as one of the glorious knights of Rigel?
Brave soldiers of Rigel! How admirably you have fought for me until now!
However… The time has already grown late. The fate of the Rigelian Empire has drawn to an end.
Hear me, all of you!!! This is my final request.
If I should fall, you must not interfere.
Those of you who remain should surrender like the courageous men you are.
I hear that Sofia’s young general is a man of compassion.
In no way should surrender be a bad choice for you.
Is that clear? Do not die in vain. Do not throw away your lives so frivolously!

I think that people would've been more critical on the story front if Echoes was an entirely new game and not a remake. 

 

 

[Jotari]

27 minutes ago, Armagon said:

You know, i want to point out that while Echoes' plot does have it's problems, i think the reason most people (including myself) aren't being more critical about it is because it's a massive improvement over Fates' plot Echoes's plot, at it's core, is still Gaiden's plot, and that game was released 25 years ago. A lot of Echoes's flaws such as Rudolf's plan can be linked back to Gaiden. A lot of people say Alm should've been aggressive, but he was never aggressive to begin with, the closest thing to being aggressive in Gaiden is the "I'll crush these bastards" line. The biggest evidence that Alm wasn't aggressive in Gaiden is this

I think that people would've been more critical on the story front if Echoes was an entirely new game and not a remake. 

 

 

You know you can both be aggressive and have compassion. They're not mutually exclusivity traits.

[Armagon]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You know you can both be aggressive and have compassion. They're not mutually exclusivity traits.

I'm not saying he can only be one. I'm saying Alm wasn't aggressive in Gaiden. At the very least, he was impulsive, but he was never aggressive. Awakening Alm is aggressive but he's also non-canon.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I'm not saying he can only be one. I'm saying Alm wasn't aggressive in Gaiden. At the very least, he was impulsive, but he was never aggressive. Awakening Alm is aggressive but he's also non-canon.

Gaiden Alm also actively held a grudge against Mycen for taking Celica away and called Rudolf an evil man even after finding out he's his father.  Alm doesn't have much dialogue in Gaiden period and much of what he does have shows he doesn't suffer fools. When people say Alm was more aggressive in Gaiden it's provoke the wrong image. He wasn't cold or evil in any regard. He still was fighting for justice and went out of his way to save people but Awakening's depiction of him wan't pulled out of thin air. Can you imagine Shadows of Valentia Alm saying something like he'll crush these bastards? The only line remotely similar to me is when he fights Berkut in the anime cutscene and says something like "What? You're not going to fight me?" Of course as it's been noted some of this may be due to a fan translation hence why I source the most damning evidence to be the way his mugshot was designed in Gaiden.

[Thane]

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

i think the reason most people (including myself) aren't being more critical about it is because it's a massive improvement over Fates' plot Echoes's plot, at it's core, is still Gaiden's plot, and that game was released 25 years ago.

Then you rewrite it to fit today's standards better, not make matters worse. This is not even a defense of Echoes' faults, but rather a strawman to excuse its shortcomings. 

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

A lot of Echoes's flaws such as Rudolf's plan can be linked back to Gaiden.

This could've been expanded upon. Instead, Rudolf remains completely in the background until the finale, with only a few lines from Massena and Mycen and a Memory Prism explaining his actions, which still don't manage not to make a lick of sense. Just because Rudolf didn't do anything in Gaiden's plot until the final map doesn't mean they had to adhere to that 25 years later.

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

A lot of people say Alm should've been aggressive, but he was never aggressive to begin with

Because no one in Gaiden had many lines or even much of a personality to speak of. Writing personalities for the old characters would essentially be like writing completely new ones for the majority of the cast members. The problem is that the "new" Alm is completely incompatible with the themes of Echoes, and they would've worked better if he hadn't been flawless. As a result of him being the best thing since sliced bread, Celica's importance is heavily reduced in the game in which she's supposed to be the second protagonist. Going "Alm had no personality in Gaiden, so he shouldn't have one in Echoes" is an utterly ridiculous suggestion.

Another reason why people got disappointed with his generic personality is because many of us liked his portrayal in Awakening, where he stood out from other lords with his aggressive personality. Five years later and that character is nowhere to be seen, and we instead get a protagonist who sounds like many other lords in the series and who doesn't even fit into the themes of his own game.

At the end of the day though - and this is the important part - it doesn't matter whether this is a remake or not. Echoes cost just as much as most other major 3DS games, and coming up with excuses for its lackluster story and archaic gameplay won't change that. It's like the people defending Fates by saying that at least Intelligent Systems tried something new - it doesn't matter what the reason is if their product isn't up to snuff, because they still charge full price for it. 

I'm genuinely happy you and many others like the game so much, I really am. However, these kinds of arguments will not convince anyone who's not pleased with the story.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Thane

[Armagon]

54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Gaiden Alm also actively held a grudge against Mycen for taking Celica away and called Rudolf an evil man even after finding out he's his father.  Alm doesn't have much dialogue in Gaiden period and much of what he does have shows he doesn't suffer fools. When people say Alm was more aggressive in Gaiden it's provoke the wrong image. He wasn't cold or evil in any regard. He still was fighting for justice and went out of his way to save people but Awakening's depiction of him wan't pulled out of thin air. Can you imagine Shadows of Valentia Alm saying something like he'll crush these bastards? The only line remotely similar to me is when he fights Berkut in the anime cutscene and says something like "What? You're not going to fight me?" Of course as it's been noted some of this may be due to a fan translation hence why I source the most damning evidence to be the way his mugshot was designed in Gaiden.

I don't think we should be using the NES portraits, especially since it got Alm's hair color wrong. Not to mention that Marth's NES portrait has a similar expression, and we all know Marth was never meant to be that kind of guy.

 FE1 Marth for reference. He looks like he's got that anime thing where the main protagonist is angered and the camera angle only shows one of his eyes.

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I don't think we should be using the NES portraits, especially since it got Alm's hair color wrong. Not to mention that Marth's NES portrait has a similar expression, and we all know Marth was never meant to be that kind of guy.

 FE1 Marth for reference. He looks like he's got that anime thing where the main protagonist is angered and the camera angle only shows one of his eyes.

They didn't get Alm's hair colour wrong. The NES could only display like a dozen colours at once. Blue likely popped more than any shade of green they could have used. And even then it's an irrelevant point. Alm's expression is angry in the game. Denying that is like saying Tobin isn't male because the mugshots are unreliable. And Marth's mugshot isn't angry. He looks bloody depressed. The eyes are slanted outwards so he's looks like he's looking up at someone (because he feels small). That's not an angry anime hair, it's a shamed cover the face emo style. Now I haven't played FE1 so I'm not sure how much that actually gels with what few lines he gets in the game but it's what I read from the sprite.

[maybe]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

They didn't get Alm's hair colour wrong. The NES could only display like a dozen colours at once. Blue likely popped more than any shade of green they could have used. 

considering kamui's portrait has a blue outfit and green hair, i'm pretty sure they were perfectly capable of making alm's hair green

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, unique said:

considering kamui's portrait has a blue outfit and green hair, i'm pretty sure they were perfectly capable of making alm's hair green

Hmm. True. Then it's just a plain old mystery or poor communication between art teams. Regardless the point is moot. Alm having blue hair can't be used as a reason to dismiss any information conveyed from his sprite.

[Armagon]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Alm's expression is angry in the game. Denying that is like saying Tobin isn't male because the mugshots are unreliable. And Marth's mugshot isn't angry. He looks bloody depressed. The eyes are slanted outwards so he's looks like he's looking up at someone (because he feels small). That's not an angry anime hair, it's a shamed cover the face emo style. Now I haven't played FE1 so I'm not sure how much that actually gels with what few lines he gets in the game but it's what I read from the sprite.

I wouldn't say Alm's expression is angry in Gaiden. I'd say determined is more accurate. And FE1 Marth doesn't look depressed either. It's just that the NES sprites weren't very detailed. If we look at Marth's FE3 Book 1 portrait, we see that it's an updated version.

Also, look at Alm's official Gaiden art

Spoiler

He's not shown to be angry here. If anything, he looks more like he does in Echoes.

 

[Dark Sage]

The classism theme and Alm's  status as secret royalty makes much more sense when you consider it from the lens of noblesse oblige. I think this is part of the reason why Fernand and Berkut were added and why Slayde became much more prominent. The idea behind noblesse oblige is that the nobility have social responsiblities that they must fulfill for the commonfolk in exchange for their wealth and status. Clive, Fernand, Berkut, and Slayde all represent different aspects of the nobility when viewed from this lens. Clive is a positive example of the nobility and strongly believes in noblesse oblige; he believes that a class system is necessary, but he still treats the commonfolk as actual people and is willing to acknowledge their abilities. Even when he suggests not saving Delthea, it's because he sees it as a regrettable sacrifice to save everyone else, instead of thinking she simply doesn't matter at all due to her blood. Fernand serves as a foil to Clive in that he's somebody that lost faith in those ideals, as from his perspective, they led to the death of his family. Berkut believes in a somewhat corrupted, Darwinist form of Clive's philosophy; his motivation is to prove he's worthy of his position, which suggests this is something he expects from all nobles, and his low opinion of commoners is based on the belief that they are inherently not strong enough to ever earn such positions. And Slayde represents the worst examples of the aristocracy, particularly the extreme sense of entitlement and the callousness towards everyone else; he doesn't even think about whether he's worthy of his position like Berkut does, and just takes his status for granted.

In regards to how Alm, his status as secret royalty doesn't undermine the main point regarding class that the game was taking, because it was never that one's social status doesn't matter. Rather, it's the idea that one's social status doesn't necessarily relate to their quality of character or their ability, and that people with high status are only worthy of it if they accept their responsibilities towards the happiness and safety of their subjects. Furthermore, Alm spent his life living like a commoner, among commoners. The scene in Act V where he talks about showing Clive how to use a plow is meant to highlight that even after the truth of his birth is revealed, he still has the same moral compass and the same empathy for people he previously had. Also, Forsyth's, Gray's, Tobin's, and Jesse's endings are all examples of peasants rising to the nobility, Jesse even founding his own nation, all entirely due to their merits.

In regards to Ceclia's alleged idiocy, I found this was actually handled surprisingly well for the most part. Contrary to popular belief, Celica DOESN'T immediately buy Jedah's claims, and in fact questions what makes her so special that she could help with Duma's madness. The reason she ultimately caves has to do with her own lack of faith in mankind's ability to fend for themselves, the same reason she set out on her journey in the first place. It's also pretty obvious that Celica doesn't want to do it either but from her perspective, there are two options: 1. Duma degenerates, Mila doesn't come back, and the world is fucked, or 2. Sacrifice her soul on the chance that it might help Duma not go crazy, which would ultimately have a higher net worth. Celica not telling the others about it is very in-character too, she doesn't even Mae much about Alm, and both Kliff and Mae remark how she tends to keep things to herself and not burden other people. The main reason why it comes off so much worse is because Jedah's character design is way too...extreme to put it lightly. Even keeping the blue tinge is fine, since that seems to be a thing among the Duma Faithful, but looking normal would go a long way to make Act IV easier to swallow.

(I also find it ironic that there are a couple of people who hate Alm but then praise Robin in the same breath. The cognitive dissonance is amazing).

Edited July 14, 2017 by Dark Sage

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Dark Sage said:

The classism theme and Alm's  status as secret royalty makes much more sense when you consider it from the lens of noblesse oblige. I think this is part of the reason why Fernand and Berkut were added and why Slayde became much more prominent. The idea behind noblesse oblige is that the nobility have social responsiblities that they must fulfill for the commonfolk in exchange for their wealth and status. Clive, Fernand, Berkut, and Slayde all represent different aspects of the nobility when viewed from this lens. Clive is a positive example of the nobility and strongly believes in noblesse oblige; he believes that a class system is necessary, but he still treats the commonfolk as actual people and is willing to acknowledge their abilities. Even when he suggests not saving Delthea, it's because he sees it as a regrettable sacrifice to save everyone else, instead of thinking she simply doesn't matter at all due to her blood. Fernand serves as a foil to Clive in that he's somebody that lost faith in those ideals, as from his perspective, they led to the death of his family. Berkut believes in a somewhat corrupted, Darwinist form of Clive's philosophy; his motivation is to prove he's worthy of his position, which suggests this is something he expects from all nobles, and his low opinion of commoners is based on the belief that they are inherently not strong enough to ever earn such positions. And Slayde represents the worst examples of the aristocracy, particularly the extreme sense of entitlement and the callousness towards everyone else; he doesn't even think about whether he's worthy of his position like Berkut does, and just takes his status for granted.

In regards to how Alm, his status as secret royalty doesn't undermine the main point regarding class that the game was taking, because it was never that one's social status doesn't matter. Rather, it's the idea that one's social status doesn't necessarily relate to their quality of character or their ability, and that people with high status are only worthy of it if they accept their responsibilities towards the happiness and safety of their subjects. Furthermore, Alm spent his life living like a commoner, among commoners. The scene in Act V where he talks about showing Clive how to use a plow is meant to highlight that even after the truth of his birth is revealed, he still has the same moral compass and the same empathy for people he previously had. Also, Forsyth's, Gray's, Tobin's, and Jesse's endings are all examples of peasants rising to the nobility, Jesse even founding his own nation, all entirely due to their merits.

In regards to Ceclia's alleged idiocy, I found this was actually handled surprisingly well for the most part. Contrary to popular belief, Celica DOESN'T immediately buy Jedah's claims, and in fact questions what makes her so special that she could help with Duma's madness. The reason she ultimately caves has to do with her own lack of faith in mankind's ability to fend for themselves, the same reason she set out on her journey in the first place. It's also pretty obvious that Celica doesn't want to do it either but from her perspective, there are two options: 1. Duma degenerates, Mila doesn't come back, and the world is fucked, or 2. Sacrifice her soul on the chance that it might help Duma not go crazy, which would ultimately have a higher net worth. Celica not telling the others about it is very in-character too, she doesn't even Mae much about Alm, and both Kliff and Mae remark how she tends to keep things to herself and not burden other people. The main reason why it comes off so much worse is because Jedah's character design is way too...extreme to put it lightly. Even keeping the blue tinge is fine, since that seems to be a thing among the Duma Faithful, but looking normal would go a long way to make Act IV easier to swallow.

(I also find it ironic that there are a couple of people who hate Alm but then praise Robin in the same breath. The cognitive dissonance is amazing).

While I think Jedah's character design does play a roll in Celica's apparent idiocy, I don't think its the main point. The main point is that he laughs evilly and attacks her allies. Why would anyone want to trust the word of someone who's trying to murder your friends for fun? My thought process regarding Jedah throughout the game was

"Oh hey, it's Jedah. Hooray. Celica's not going to trust the obviously evil guy is she? Oh wait, he just made an extremely rationale argument. That's a good predicament, save both Duma and Mila at the cost of one per- oh wait no now he wants to murder everyone. And now he's talking creating a world of fear and chaos...And Celica's sill willing to sacrifice herself on his word. And he was lying about helping Mila. Surprise, surprise."

And I think that's the basic reaction most people got from him. When he first suggest Celica sacrifice herself it makes a certain amount of sense (granted some knowledge of Archanean lore definitely helps) but he just becomes more and more untrustworthy as the game progresses yet Celica only becomes more and more willing to believe he'll honor his bargain. Even just not fighting him in the swamp chapter would have helped immensely I think but it's another case where they felt they had to be too faithful to the original. The point of him showing up in the swamp chapter in the original was to introduce the character (and his gimmick) but they sort of achieved that regardless by showing up in the cutscenes. So not fighting him wouldn't actually have lost that much imo.

[NekoKnight]

2 hours ago, Dark Sage said:

In regards to how Alm, his status as secret royalty doesn't undermine the main point regarding class that the game was taking, because it was never that one's social status doesn't matter. Rather, it's the idea that one's social status doesn't necessarily relate to their quality of character or their ability, and that people with high status are only worthy of it if they accept their responsibilities towards the happiness and safety of their subjects. Furthermore, Alm spent his life living like a commoner, among commoners. The scene in Act V where he talks about showing Clive how to use a plow is meant to highlight that even after the truth of his birth is revealed, he still has the same moral compass and the same empathy for people he previously had. Also, Forsyth's, Gray's, Tobin's, and Jesse's endings are all examples of peasants rising to the nobility, Jesse even founding his own nation, all entirely due to their merits.

That's an interesting perspective but I don't think it wholly absolves the matter of Alm's heritage. Fernand and Berkut (people we're supposed to disagree with) believe that people of noble birth are more able and have the right to rule than those who are of common birth. With our modern values, we know that Alm's morals and courage are his own merits, irrespective of his social class, but in Valentia where the significance of one's social class is still being debated, Alm being a secret royal is proof that blood does determine the value of one's character and potential. It's hard to call Alm's royal heritage merely a coincidence when fate specifically picked him out for greatness. It was not a peasant but the son of an emperor who would be the one to slay a god and unite the continent.

I've heard people bring up people like Forsyth and Tobin as examples of commoners proving their value and gaining social mobility, but I'm not sure that really counts considering they are friends with the king and queen of the continent. Had their leader been any of the conservative nobles, they'd be right where they were before the war. Their social nobility depended on Alm and Celica being royals.

2 hours ago, Dark Sage said:

(I also find it ironic that there are a couple of people who hate Alm but then praise Robin in the same breath. The cognitive dissonance is amazing).

Not sure if you're talking about me or other people, but I don't hate Alm nor do I find Robin without narrative flaws. 

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by NekoKnight

[RedRob]

In regards to the game mucking up its themes, I think focusing some rewrites of some parts of the plot around making Rigel meritocratic to some degree would fix it. Have Alm be the son of a knight who worked his way up from being a commoner to earning the favor of Rudolf himself. Alm would still have the Brand, with the Duma Faithful coming after him, only they have come after him this time, resulting in his parents dying trying to protect him.(As to how Rudolf got ahold of Alm, they could just have a servant be entrusted to escape with Alm to deliver him to the King.) And everything would be the same from there more or less.

Berkut would still be the classist dick, but now it has resulted in Rudolf disliking him, believing him to be a mockery of Rigelian values with no real potential to be king, and a potential threat to Alm due to that behavior, hence why he is kept in the dark.

 

I got some more ideas on what to due for a rewrite of Echoes, but I think it would be more prudent for me to post that in it's own thread.

[NekoKnight]

6 hours ago, RedRob said:

In regards to the game mucking up its themes, I think focusing some rewrites of some parts of the plot around making Rigel meritocratic to some degree would fix it. Have Alm be the son of a knight who worked his way up from being a commoner to earning the favor of Rudolf himself. Alm would still have the Brand, with the Duma Faithful coming after him, only they have come after him this time, resulting in his parents dying trying to protect him.(As to how Rudolf got ahold of Alm, they could just have a servant be entrusted to escape with Alm to deliver him to the King.) And everything would be the same from there more or less.

Berkut would still be the classist dick, but now it has resulted in Rudolf disliking him, believing him to be a mockery of Rigelian values with no real potential to be king, and a potential threat to Alm due to that behavior, hence why he is kept in the dark.

 

I got some more ideas on what to due for a rewrite of Echoes, but I think it would be more prudent for me to post that in it's own thread.

Whether you post them here or in another thread, I'd like to see more of your ideas on a rewrite.

[Baldrick]

18 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

That's an interesting perspective but I don't think it wholly absolves the matter of Alm's heritage. Fernand and Berkut (people we're supposed to disagree with) believe that people of noble birth are more able and have the right to rule than those who are of common birth. With our modern values, we know that Alm's morals and courage are his own merits, irrespective of his social class, but in Valentia where the significance of one's social class is still being debated, Alm being a secret royal is proof that blood does determine the value of one's character and potential. It's hard to call Alm's royal heritage merely a coincidence when fate specifically picked him out for greatness. It was not a peasant but the son of an emperor who would be the one to slay a god and unite the continent.

I've heard people bring up people like Forsyth and Tobin as examples of commoners proving their value and gaining social mobility, but I'm not sure that really counts considering they are friends with the king and queen of the continent. Had their leader been any of the conservative nobles, they'd be right where they were before the war. Their social nobility depended on Alm and Celica being royals.

Why is it that Tobin's social circumstance is relevant, whereas Alm's is not?

Alm and Berkut are virtually the same by birth, yet they could not have had more different upbringings, which led to them having different personalities. Berkut is presumably capable of obtaining Falchion, killing Duma and uniting the continent, but would he have the inclination to do it? If Alm had been raised to be the heir of the empire, would he? If Gray had been the one born with the brand and raised by Mycen, would he? In this case, nurture is more important than nature.

[NekoKnight]

3 hours ago, David Boey said:

Why is it that Tobin's social circumstance is relevant, whereas Alm's is not?

Alm and Berkut are virtually the same by birth, yet they could not have had more different upbringings, which led to them having different personalities. Berkut is presumably capable of obtaining Falchion, killing Duma and uniting the continent, but would he have the inclination to do it? If Alm had been raised to be the heir of the empire, would he? If Gray had been the one born with the brand and raised by Mycen, would he? In this case, nurture is more important than nature.

I'm a little confused by the first question. Are you asking why I discredit Tobin for his accomplishments and not Alm? Alm became king because he was the royal heir. Had he not, he'd just be another commoner like Tobin who isn't eligible to rule unless someone higher up grants him that priviledge. Could Alm or Tobin have risen in society without having royal backing? We'll never know because the game made Alm the son of the emperor.

I know that nurture is more important than nature, but in a society that believes the opposite, Alm being of royal blood proves that the greatest heroes are noble born.

 

[Baldrick]

5 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm a little confused by the first question. Are you asking why I discredit Tobin for his accomplishments and not Alm? Alm became king because he was the royal heir. Had he not, he'd just be another commoner like Tobin who isn't eligible to rule unless someone higher up grants him that priviledge. Could Alm or Tobin have risen in society without having royal backing? We'll never know because the game made Alm the son of the emperor.

I know that nurture is more important than nature, but in a society that believes the opposite, Alm being of royal blood proves that the greatest heroes are noble born.

 

I'm asking why you didn't consider the fact Alm was raised as a commoner, and isn't just the son of the emperor in the same way Tobin isn't just a commoner.

Well, there's Mycen. He apparently went from a soldier to a count, and that was under Lima IV. I can't imagine it would be any harder with a non-classist ruler.

[RedRob]

55 minutes ago, David Boey said:

Well, there's Mycen. He apparently went from a soldier to a count, and that was under Lima IV. I can't imagine it would be any harder with a non-classist ruler.

Considering how old Mycen is, I think he might predate Lima. Though Mycen, for his importance in the plot, has a vague backstory. All we know is he worked his way up, and is apparently friends with the Emperor of the neighboring nation, somehow. That last part really annoys me because it's never explained how such a friendship came about.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, RedRob said:

Considering how old Mycen is, I think he might predate Lima. Though Mycen, for his importance in the plot, has a vague backstory. All we know is he worked his way up, and is apparently friends with the Emperor of the neighboring nation, somehow. That last part really annoys me because it's never explained how such a friendship came about.

I got the impression that Mycen was originally from Rigel and then got exiled or left for some personal quarrel. He does say he never thought he'd set foot in Rigel again during that one memory scene. Of course amusingly if he was originally exiled from Rigel then that would mean he got kicked out of both kingdoms after establishing himself. Would make sense why he was the scapegoat for the murder of Lima's children though.

[NekoKnight]

12 hours ago, David Boey said:

I'm asking why you didn't consider the fact Alm was raised as a commoner, and isn't just the son of the emperor in the same way Tobin isn't just a commoner.

Well, there's Mycen. He apparently went from a soldier to a count, and that was under Lima IV. I can't imagine it would be any harder with a non-classist ruler.

Then my answer is the same. In the real world, I know that one's actions are more important for defining who they are than the circumstances of their birth, but Valentia is a different world where many people believe that the nobleborn naturally have greater potential and the privilege to rule (Berkut and Fernand think this at the very least). Alm being royalty might be coincidental from our point of view, but from theirs, it's proof that nobles will rise to the top even if they aren't raised as one. Also. this being fantasy, there is reason to believe that blood does matter in who you become. Alm and Celica are noted to have special souls (commented on by Nuibaba and Jedah), Alm can use a sword no one else can and there is a barrier to Duma that can't be passed until Alm and Celica are there. Even Alm's friends note that from a young age they felt Alm was somehow different and better than they were. I know one thing that separates them: his noble lineage. They want to tell a commoner success story but Alm is anything but 'common'.

Mycen is the truest personal success story but considering there is a class system, we must assume his story is the exception to the rule. 

[Baldrick]

12 hours ago, RedRob said:

Considering how old Mycen is, I think he might predate Lima. Though Mycen, for his importance in the plot, has a vague backstory. All we know is he worked his way up, and is apparently friends with the Emperor of the neighboring nation, somehow. That last part really annoys me because it's never explained how such a friendship came about.

Unless there's anything to suggest Lima's predecessor was more enlightened, it's still conclusive proof that upward social mobility is possible if you work for it.