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Starting Radiant Dawn... again!

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Earliest promotion time for Edward is realistically before 1-8.
That's where it would make the most sense because he can't double some HM brigands in first tier anymore.

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I was comparing Lucia and Zihark statwise. Lucia and Zihark both have correct bases but a hard time in capping some of the most important stats of a DPS, strength for both and luck in tier 2 for Zihark. Plus his lacking growth in defence, he will have less avoid (OFC you are speaking of permanent support, but the supports won't be always side by side except if you turtle, and some levels are not meant to be turtled by some glass cannons). His growths are quite close to Lucia's, but totally different for Edward's. That's what I meant. Edward is more similar to Mia who will cap HP, strength, skill and speed fast, and have a manageable defence for hard times. And Edward benefits from Leonardo's support (water: attack and defence) to play the same hybrid dodgetank as Nolan, while Zihark can't take 2 hits from anything with a decent attack.

For the matter of Exp, I repeat, YES, Zihark comes when Edward is about level 11-15, depending on how many kills you fed him with, but this difference can be diminished with a full Laguz level and the little damage Edward deals to them, you can turtle with Edward with Leonardo's support and make a lv 13-17 Edward by the end of chapter 4 if you want to use him in the long run. Everything is depending on who you feed the most.

Also I've seen some good advices for Leonardo: give him armscrolls until he can use the crossbow (or not if it doesn't require a specific weapon level) and beastfow, put Edward without weapon where he can dodgetank (with the lowest number of attacking ennemies possible at the same time) and beastfow on Leonardo, and OS any Laguz even tigers (OFC 24 or 28 damage x3=72 or 84 so yes he will kill them all without needing any strength, and crossbows are very accurate). You can also put Tauroneo on the front instead of Edward (if he's available, I can't remind if he is or not). And this strategy will work 100% if your tank doesn't die. While giving beastfow to any front unit might kill this unit. For those who want to save Leonardo a bit longer, you know what to do, level him up until lv 10 (at least) and evolve him (you can also put him 20:99 then evolve, but it's longer and drains much Exp).

Every character aside from Meg and Fiona has his/her uses, you just have to think of how he/she could be useful or even fun to use. Leonardo with crossbow and beastfow can be fun, just watch eating popcorn.

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Another surprising character for me is Boyd. Everyone is telling he's too slow for HM. Well, he starts slow. But with some proper training (why on Earth would you put him against swordmasters from the beginning? tell me please) he can easily reach good stats quite fast and he has bulk. Here's my Boyd: I used ONLY BEXP to level him up from the start:

Boyd 100% BEXP.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Lucia hasn't the right bases. She's 11 levels higher than Zihark and has only one more strength and defense point. Also her speed is lower than base level 7 Mia. Furthermore her growths are shit.

Zihark has strength and defense issues but skill, speed and resistance will be capped in time to improve his strength.

I usually overuse Edward but level 15 has been the maximum he has reached by the end of 1-5 by giving all possible boss kills.

Beastfoe and crossbow Leonardo sounds nice, but honestly it'd be waste of his Lughnasadh. He just needs 15 speed to double tigers. With decent strength and support he can ORKO them with a crit. He still can oneshot the hawks in 3-13.



Umm... when did you bexp. level Boyd?
As I see he has the default equipment as in the beginning of part 3.
How did you get (all the) bexp.?

Edited by Reimu Hakurei

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Well for Boyd BEXP it's from my normal run, I rush it with cheat engine because I want to play hard mode. I just put his EXP bar at 99% then BEXP 1 exp etc. until he reaches the level I want. I just wanted to see if a bad level up Boyd could be good, and OMG he's so good! with only 3 points per level up he got 5 stats capped!

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1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

I was comparing Lucia and Zihark statwise. Lucia and Zihark both have correct bases but a hard time in capping some of the most important stats of a DPS, strength for both and luck in tier 2 for Zihark. Plus his lacking growth in defence, he will have less avoid (OFC you are speaking of permanent support, but the supports won't be always side by side except if you turtle, and some levels are not meant to be turtled by some glass cannons). His growths are quite close to Lucia's, but totally different for Edward's. That's what I meant. Edward is more similar to Mia who will cap HP, strength, skill and speed fast, and have a manageable defence for hard times. And Edward benefits from Leonardo's support (water: attack and defence) to play the same hybrid dodgetank as Nolan, while Zihark can't take 2 hits from anything with a decent attack.

For the matter of Exp, I repeat, YES, Zihark comes when Edward is about level 11-15, depending on how many kills you fed him with, but this difference can be diminished with a full Laguz level and the little damage Edward deals to them, you can turtle with Edward with Leonardo's support and make a lv 13-17 Edward by the end of chapter 4 if you want to use him in the long run. Everything is depending on who you feed the most.

Also I've seen some good advices for Leonardo: give him armscrolls until he can use the crossbow (or not if it doesn't require a specific weapon level) and beastfow, put Edward without weapon where he can dodgetank (with the lowest number of attacking ennemies possible at the same time) and beastfow on Leonardo, and OS any Laguz even tigers (OFC 24 or 28 damage x3=72 or 84 so yes he will kill them all without needing any strength, and crossbows are very accurate). You can also put Tauroneo on the front instead of Edward (if he's available, I can't remind if he is or not). And this strategy will work 100% if your tank doesn't die. While giving beastfow to any front unit might kill this unit. For those who want to save Leonardo a bit longer, you know what to do, level him up until lv 10 (at least) and evolve him (you can also put him 20:99 then evolve, but it's longer and drains much Exp).

Every character aside from Meg and Fiona has his/her uses, you just have to think of how he/she could be useful or even fun to use. Leonardo with crossbow and beastfow can be fun, just watch eating popcorn.

What exactly do you mean by a DPS? Because that's not the term I'd use in a game like FE. Also, I find it hilarious how you have the audacity to talk about Zihark's "lacking" defense growth... when Edward's is all of 10% higher. And not only that, he starts with only 5 defense. On average, Edward won't reach Zihark's base defense until 20/5. On top of that. I think you put too much emphasis on luck - and this is coming from someone who actually thinks luck is more important than most people give it credit for. As for the matter of growths... growths aren't all that matters.

Sure... if you blatantly favor and baby him, that is, given that he can only take one hit without being turned into a corpse - note that you lose if anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, dies in the first few chapters, which means I have to favor him during a time when he's a walking failure condition; my answer to that is: hell no. To put it into perspective, he joins at level 4. This means I'd have to average at least 1.4 levels for this to even have a chance of happening... when, once again, he dies if he's stared at hard. And I'd like to see how you can "turtle" with someone who needs healing after every hit he takes, not to mention the occasional crit meaning he self-destructs. 

First off, it's promote, NOT evolve - this isn't Pokemon. Also, crossbows don't need weapon ranks to use - and arms scrolls are honestly better off sold. Tauroneo isn't available for 3-6, either.

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Well, like you say it yourself, luck is more important than what people usually think. I got my Ike killed by a mage with a crit. The mage had 1% crit rate. YES, LUCK MATTERS.

By turtling, I was speaking of Zihark with his supporter. I didn't mention Edward for that.

Wrath can be removed and it is better on front line units anyway, so if you use him on front line, kick that skill out before it kills your character; BTW, adept doesn't deal as much damage as a crit, but it still has crit% and deals enough damage to kill sometimes, so your point on wrath killing Edward is pointless since it goes the same for Zihark with an activation rate, and my Zihark activates it like half of the time at any level.

Baby-ing...LOL...people who often give the seraph robe and dracoshield to Jill talking about baby-ing. Well, maybe not giving those items to Jill makes her totally useless like in all my runs before I watched a speedrun where the player gave all to her. Yes, Jill not reaching 17 in def before promotion, not even reaching 30 HP, THAT's the REAL Jill. You can give those items to anyone, even to Leonardo, Meg or Fiona. You're the one who chooses. So Edward could have more def than Zihark, or Zihark more than Edward. But there are so many boosters compared with any FE I've finished before (well, if it was older than this one it only means TSS, since I don't want to finish the other ones, I''m bored when I play these 0 growth games with 60 units but only 15 more or less viable on the full cast), you can really make a God (outside of Ike and Kurth).

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Posted (edited)

Luck still matters less than any other stat, though. Yes, unlucky crits happen, but  they happen rarely while Str adds damage every single time a unit enters combat. Very low luck is rather annoying because the character will constantly face crit chances against any enemy. The difference between 20 and 25, however, is way more notable on Str, Def or Spd than it is on Luck (or Skl or Res, for that matter) - and a character with abysmal strength (or magic) is usually still a lot worse than an unlucky character.

And I would recommend that you try to understand the concept of "efficiency" before you mock it. People prioritize certain units when it comes to kill-feeding, BEXP, stat boosters or weapon forges because the payoff is vastly different.

Efficient play or even LTC or speedrunning are hardly the only "correct" way to play a FE game, but since the latter two are all about getting the most out of the resources the game gives you, they can often be helpful to find good strategies for a more casual playstyle. Speaking for myself, I consider my playstyle to be relatively fast (in terms of turns, not necessarily real time per chapter), but far from the fastest possible way. But watching dondon's LPs has still helped me improve at FE on higher difficulties, if only because I started to think more goal-oriented.

Edited by ping

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Posted (edited)

Well, in terms of efficiency, Jill sure can be good, but so can Fiona, whose def and res growths are so high she can be your frontline unit for all part 3. She won't fear any ennemy with less than 30 damage (assuming 23 def capped, am I right?) she just needs a speedwings. But it's only in terms of stats and tanking, since her mobility is totally down for most DB chapters she's in. Still her earth affinity can help her supported ally who can't take so many hits.

Jill will be away most of the time, so she won't benefit often from her support and if she does then she's bound to the group (except if you se my awesome combo A-support with Savior, rescue your useless supporting mate and use him to boost your Jill's efficiency, in this case she'll benefit from the support).

I like how Awakening made the staff bots completely useless after the few first chapters when you can reclass and promote a few units once or twice to get the skills you want, not even talking of the max stats completely insane, maybe too much.

PS: only Imbue with high magic can equal Solar, the dark paladin's recover skill, Recover (pegasus lv 10 skill when 3 spots away from any ally/ennemy) etc. in terms of frequent healing ability accessible to everyone or to several characters at least.

Edited by mangasdeouf

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No, training Fiona is not and cannot be efficient in any sense of the word. Look at her bases: -5 Spd, -5 Def and -3 Str compared to Jill, and Fiona's still worse if she catches up on levels. That's more than a speedwings worth of deficit.

Thing is, a unit's worth isn't just about how good their stats are in the endgame. Their performance earlier is just as, if not more important than what a unit can do in the final chapter - especially since most FE games don't have a constantly increasing difficulty curve. The earlygame tends to be the most difficult part of the game, in large parts because you often don't have a full team of good units yet. And while FE10 is different from other games of the series in that you don't have one constantly growing team, it's still true that part 1 is harder than part 4. As such, many players (well, at least in this subforum) see Volug as more valuable than Caineghis, even though Cain outclasses him by a mile when he joins. But Volug's contributions in part 1 and 3 are much harder to replace, simply because you don't have an endless list of strong high-movement units available, while units like Nailah or Tibarn aren't that much weaker than Cain in the tower.

Also, Jill is absent for one DB chapter after she joins. And so's Fiona, fwiw. Otherwise, Jill is absolutely crucial in 1-6-2 if you want to rescue the NPCs that accompany Fiona thanks to her mobility, useful in 1-6-1 since the map is rather terrain-heavy, and does perfectly fine in 1-7 and 1-E.

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Posted (edited)

Compaing Jill with Fiona is like comparing apples to oranges.
Jill with angelic robe can take two steel axe hits.
Fiona with angelic robe still will get doubled and killed.

The stats matter and Jill with transfer boosts in strength, speed and defense and angelic robe will carry the party throughout the game.
In part 3 Sothe can't take two tigers, same goes for everyone else aside of Volug and very well trained Jill a / o Nolan. You need as many good front units as possible later to survive the DB chapters, and Jill needs less effort than others.

Also luck is trivial for the DB, the party which needs it even the least.
The only enemies who have a critchance are myrms and very few thunder mages (including Radmin) from part 1. There are two killing edge myrms. Just attract them with a fast and bulky enough unit like Volug, Sothe or Jill, and you'll be fine.

Edited by Reimu Hakurei

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Please tell me why everyone praises Volug's bulk, because I don't see any bulk aside from him high HP. He joins overlevelled, his growths are terrible in every single useful stat for a Laguz and even his bases aren't spectacular. If you want to let him tank all the time in every part 3 chapter, you won't have enough Olivi grass to keep him in true form and with Wildheart he's over-Meh. Even level 15 tier 1 Nolan has as much def as Volug and the wolf's def growth is 15%, he will rarely put any point into that plus his weapon rank is terribly slow to grow so his attack stat won't raise him to any upper-middle tier. His availability doesn't benefit him at all except if you use him with a rescued unit to spam the boss of the prison in part 1 without doubling him and raising his crappy weapon level.

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  • Finally, I thought of an easy way out of the DB chapters. Not including keeping any non prepromoted character: use only Sothe and Micayah at the beginning (as much as possible OFC), then use Volug, Sothe and Micayah, then use Zihark Volug and Micayah, maybe Tauroneo, Jill only for utility (she's still useful because of her high mobility everywhere), then Use Tormod when needed (to kill the wyvern in the swamp chapter), Muarim when needed, Vika...almost never if Tormod can kill the wyvern (it's the only thing she can be used for but coming with 0 transformation gauge makes it hard because she must 1RKO the wyvern while in human form, which requires high strength and SS strike). If overwhelmed use the BK to open a path or to turtle a little.

 

  • Saint knights have weird stats: 32 strength (same as male trueblades, it's much higher than usual), 35 skill (quite low), 36 speed (barely better than Reavers), poor 28 def, 34 res and 35 luck (am I right?). Are they meant to be sort of a magic resist trueblade with 0 bonus crit rate?

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On July 13, 2017 at 11:28 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Every character aside from Meg and Fiona has his/her uses, you just have to think of how he/she could be useful or even fun to use. Leonardo with crossbow and beastfow can be fun, just watch eating popcorn.

I must say, I'm surprised you didn't mention Lyre, who's worse off than either.

On July 13, 2017 at 3:01 PM, mangasdeouf said:

I like how Awakening made the staff bots completely useless after the few first chapters when you can reclass and promote a few units once or twice to get the skills you want, not even talking of the max stats completely insane, maybe too much.

PS: only Imbue with high magic can equal Solar, the dark paladin's recover skill, Recover (pegasus lv 10 skill when 3 spots away from any ally/ennemy) etc. in terms of frequent healing ability accessible to everyone or to several characters at least.

I would hesitate to call staffbots "useless". Also, you only get a limited amount of Second Seals until about halfway through the second arc.

I'd say that the new and improved Renewal is better than all of those (Sol got nerfed and only heals for half the damage dealt, Lifetaker requires attacking and defeating the enemy, Relief heals 20%, Imbue is limited in terms of who can use it well).

2 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:
  • Finally, I thought of an easy way out of the DB chapters. Not including keeping any non prepromoted character: use only Sothe and Micayah at the beginning (as much as possible OFC), then use Volug, Sothe and Micayah, then use Zihark Volug and Micayah, maybe Tauroneo, Jill only for utility (she's still useful because of her high mobility everywhere), then Use Tormod when needed (to kill the wyvern in the swamp chapter), Muarim when needed, Vika...almost never if Tormod can kill the wyvern (it's the only thing she can be used for but coming with 0 transformation gauge makes it hard because she must 1RKO the wyvern while in human form, which requires high strength and SS strike). If overwhelmed use the BK to open a path or to turtle a little.

 

  • Saint knights have weird stats: 32 strength (same as male trueblades, it's much higher than usual), 35 skill (quite low), 36 speed (barely better than Reavers), poor 28 def, 34 res and 35 luck (am I right?). Are they meant to be sort of a magic resist trueblade with 0 bonus crit rate?

I foresee a hellish time in part 3... That is all I have to say on the subject.

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Posted (edited)

Quote

Please tell me why everyone praises Volug's bulk, because I don't see any bulk aside from him high HP. He joins overlevelled, his growths are terrible in every single useful stat for a Laguz and even his bases aren't spectacular. If you want to let him tank all the time in every part 3 chapter, you won't have enough Olivi grass to keep him in true form and with Wildheart he's over-Meh. Even level 15 tier 1 Nolan has as much def as Volug and the wolf's def growth is 15%, he will rarely put any point into that plus his weapon rank is terribly slow to grow so his attack stat won't raise him to any upper-middle tier. His availability doesn't benefit him at all except if you use him with a rescued unit to spam the boss of the prison in part 1 without doubling him and raising his crappy weapon level.

Again, you're talking about too far in the future.
Unlike Volug, Nolan and Jill never will have enough HP and defense without at least one angelic robe and draco shield to take two HM 39-41 tiger hits in part 3.
Furthermore Volug's the ONLY one at this point besides BK (duh) who can double all the Laguz.. He serves basically as a Jagen in Wolf-form to tank and prepare the kills for the others. When he has reached S-strike he will ORKO every generic cat.
Yes, his main issue is that you don't have access to Laguz stone, but you can buy an olivi grass in the shop of 1-8. He can attack fulltransformed in turn 3 (or earlier when he got attacked). 
Also let's not forget that he has earth affinity too. And combined with his high base speed he will become as dodgy as Zihark will. 

In part 1 I agree that he starts to struggle at the latest in 1-F where he fails to double constantly. Most enemies aside of knights and mages have >15 speed. This is the only weak chapter for him. But with his high enough HP he still can take two physical hits without problems unlike Zihark for example.


Seraph Knights have good caps Imo. Only defense could be better (>=30 at least). The main difference to trueblades is that they can fly.
The only really screwed third tier classes are male gold and silver knights due to their awful speed cap. Funnily Astrid and Fiona have great caps (enough speed to double auras with whitepool)... but it's kinda tricky to get them.

Edited by Reimu Hakurei

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Please tell me why everyone praises Volug's bulk, because I don't see any bulk aside from him high HP. He joins overlevelled, his growths are terrible in every single useful stat for a Laguz and even his bases aren't spectacular. If you want to let him tank all the time in every part 3 chapter, you won't have enough Olivi grass to keep him in true form and with Wildheart he's over-Meh. Even level 15 tier 1 Nolan has as much def as Volug and the wolf's def growth is 15%, he will rarely put any point into that plus his weapon rank is terribly slow to grow so his attack stat won't raise him to any upper-middle tier. His availability doesn't benefit him at all except if you use him with a rescued unit to spam the boss of the prison in part 1 without doubling him and raising his crappy weapon level.

Volug is literally the only one realistically being able to take more than two hits from the strongest Tigers around, let alone one. He can feasibly reach S-rank strike by the start of 3-6 without relying on either favouritism or "Exp hogging". Being underleveled isn't a problem when you're already far ahead of the rest for most of your side in the story. That's like saying it's okaying for a lower-level scrub to be able to suck up more Exp when it will take them a lot longer to start making use of it in the first place.

Cliffs:

- Volug outshines pretty much everyone that isn't either a well-trained Jill (with two Robes and a Dracoshield, no less) and Aran. Then there's Nolan, who takes up the same amount of resources as Jill to do what he does for free (literally, just remove Wildheart).

- Not only can he actually survive two hits from the strongest enemy type, but he can actually retaliate really well in the likes of either Beastfoe or Adept. And while you can argue the former is heavily contested for, not so much when you consider he's one of the few that can run it reliably (Jill wins because of Canto + Brave, Nolan can run Crossbow and so can Leonardo).

- tl;dr: he's doing more than most people for fucking free

 

Quote

Another surprising character for me is Boyd. Everyone is telling he's too slow for HM. Well, he starts slow. But with some proper training (why on Earth would you put him against swordmasters from the beginning? tell me please) he can easily reach good stats quite fast and he has bulk.

yeah Boyd is underrated as fuck

Edited by Soul~!

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Posted (edited)

What's the point of Boyd when you have Titania and Haar in your party?
(even Gatrie is a better axe user than Boyd)
He needs way too much items to become good. Even with a speed boost he needs two more speedwings to double constantly in HM which is impossible to realize it because you only will have access to one speedwing in 3-2. A second one only can be got by rerecruiting Jill, Meg or Zihark in 3-7. And from there the enemy warriors and halberdiers will have 21 / 22 AS.
The only proper way is to train him is doing some killer axe shenigans with all his bond supports which isn't worth the effort imo.
The reaver class is great, the second best for me after dragon lords, but I don't really see much of a point to train "another" axe user with mediocre bases and only average growths.
 

Edited by Reimu Hakurei

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Posted (edited)

On July 13, 2017 at 11:34 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Another surprising character for me is Boyd. Everyone is telling he's too slow for HM. Well, he starts slow. But with some proper training (why on Earth would you put him against swordmasters from the beginning? tell me please) he can easily reach good stats quite fast and he has bulk.

The problem that Boyd has is that there are three other axe users, all of whom he's inferior to. Because let's face it, there's no way to make him better than Titania, Gatrie, or Haar. Anyway, his 18 base speed can't even double generals, and he doesn't have a good enough growth to make up for it.

1 hour ago, Soul~! said:

yeah Boyd is underrated as fuck

I disagree - and honestly, I don't see what's so special about him in the first place.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Posted (edited)

Inferior to Titania...LULZ...if you give him a bit more than what you give to Titania to work well (I mean to not get 2 or 3RKOed by any physical attacker) Boyd will be: Tankier (much more HP and DEF), Faster (35 cap SPD instead of 33, it's 4 more avoid, that's already nice, and doubling more ennemies in endgame is also nice) AND Stronger (40 strength, no beorc can rival him). His only match in those scores is Nolan but Nolan is not easier to level up because of the horrible chapters in the DB. Only for hard mode. In normal mode and easy mode, anyone can be used even Lucia (I did it in my 1st run of RD when I was 13 and not used to RD's difficulty).

Edited by mangasdeouf

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My tactic works, I used Nolan a bit until now, promoted at lv 13 to pass chapter 1-5, now I'm gonna bench him. Sothe already lv 4 with 33 exp, Volug 15:11, Laura 5:18 and I passed chapter 5 easily (well, after 3 fails because stupid NPC Jill got suicide or didn't dodge a 0 accuracy stupid javelin). My blue units didn't die once. Here's my Micayah before chapter 1-6 without any stat booster, see yourself that she can be good if trained correctly (I've given her many last hits until chapter 1-4 where I raised Nolan's level by 2 to use him as a bait in 1-5). I didn't kill the boss in 1-5 because Sothe had to come back to kill a dangerous myrmidon.

Micayah HM.jpg

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I don't exactly know what this image shall exactly say except that Micky is overleveled at this point.
Level 13 is the level she might reach at the end of 1-6-2.
Sure, she can take a hit now, and she's speedblessed, but it's no proof to me that she was trained correctly. You were just lucky with her speed.

I said it already multiple times bases matter. 

  • Titania sees more combat for being mounted.
  • Has base speed to double axe and lance generals and thunder and a few fire sages. She can benefit from a speedwing much more than Boyd would do. 
  • Is tankier in total for having better defense and resistance which equal her lower HP.

 

In the end Boyd has the better caps but it takes way too long till he will reach them. For most of the time Titania will outshine Boyd because of her better base level.


 

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Inferior to Titania...LULZ...if you give him a bit more than what you give to Titania to work well (I mean to not get 2 or 3RKOed by any physical attacker) Boyd will be: Tankier (much more HP and DEF), Faster (35 cap SPD instead of 33, it's 4 more avoid, that's already nice, and doubling more ennemies in endgame is also nice) AND Stronger (40 strength, no beorc can rival him). His only match in those scores is Nolan but Nolan is not easier to level up because of the horrible chapters in the DB. Only for hard mode. In normal mode and easy mode, anyone can be used even Lucia (I did it in my 1st run of RD when I was 13 and not used to RD's difficulty).

Caps don't matter if you can't hit them. And needless to say, caps don't tell the whole story. Anyways, Titania has better defense and resistance bases; it takes only 30 ATK to 3HKO Boyd, which 4HKOs Titania. On top of that, she's MUCH closer to promotion than he is. Oh, and her biorhythm wave doesn't suck like his does.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Honestly if Boyd is a great unit in the longrun, the more Rolf then.
He has even a bigger problem than Boyd that someone in the same class with higher base level in the same party as him.
His bases are actually better than Boyd's compared to their level (higher base speed). A speedwing or speedboost would help him to ORKO some earlygame mages at least. 
As for his growths they're great. He has the highest strength growth in the game with 75% (30% more than Shinon) and alright speed (45%).
In the beginning Shinon will tank and kill stuff till Rolf has the strength and speed to ORKO stuff with the silencer. But when both are become a Marksman, Rolf has more attackpower to ORKO more stuff.
Rolf usually caps strength and speed on his own, skill normally not. In this case I give him a support with heaven (Rafiel) instead of bexp. 
Shinon, on the other hand, needs bexp. to get his strength maxed. His affinity doesn't give him any strength.
That's why I usually train Rolf (with paragon) simply because I don't need to invest any items or bexp. in him. Just give him paragon in part 3 which can be removed at any time thankfully.

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Posted (edited)

I've never needed any BEXP to cap 90% of Shinon's stats before lv 15 tier 3.

PS: If you're still speaking of averages, you should read this: FE characters rarely follow averages. They do better in some stats and worse in others. Averages are nice on paper, but useless in runs.

Edited by mangasdeouf

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1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

I've never needed any BEXP to cap 90% of Shinon's stats before lv 15 tier 3.

Seems unlikely. I've done a bit of Excel-Fu and here's the chances for Shinon to cap his stats:

  • HP - 32.38 %
  • Str - 19.93 %
  • Mag - 56.15 %
  • Skl - 99.72 %
  • Spd - 99.93 %
  • Lck - 0.30%
  • Def - 80.64 %
  • Res - 25.26 %

This is for 20/20, mind - for 20/15, the numbers for HP and Str go down to single digits. For simplicity, I assumed that Shinon would cap HP, Skl and Spd in tier 2 (which is very likely) and would not cap the other stats (kinda screwey for Def and Res. If I understand the math right, the % would go down a little bit if I managed to account for that, since Shinon would have level-ups with zero growth rates in that particular stat, but eh)

So yeah, it's safe to assume that Shinon will cap Skl and Spd, and will fail to cap Lck almost every time he gets to 20/20. The chance to cap every stat except luck (because that's the only remotely probable way for him to cap 90% of his stats, i.e. all but one) and magic (because it doesn't matter) is 1.31%. So not exactly win-the-lottery unlikely, but still a very lucky outcome. And since that number goes down to 0.0047% for [email protected]/15, I'm gonna call bullshit on your claim.

Note that I'm not talking averages, which would still be way more relevant for a serious discussion than someone remembering that one time his Miccy capped speed in tier 1. I'm talking about the probability that a random player (who doesn't reset for good level-ups) will see a Shinon as good as you're describing, and that's really friggin low.

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