spoilers Duma and Mila are weird when put into context

[Interdimensional Observer]

And Divine Dragon contrasts with Earth Dragon. Divine = Heaven, so Heaven and Earth, which just so happen to offer the exact opposite bonuses as Affinities in Tellius (massive Hit from Heaven, equally massive Avoid from Earth).

[MeynethWilder]

I think that the answer to this post if that generally speaking Fire Emblem is a terribly written series when put into context of another entrance. They kinda work in isolation but completely fell apart when trying to set rules about how things work and you should take it all as fantasy: everything is the result of divine intervention, magic, or unexplained sources and that's aight.

[B.Leu]

Why do you think people like me have a problem with them being dragons instead of gods ? :p
 

Oh yeah, let's give a dragonkiller to two dragons who will eventually go insane and evil who will most likely use it to murder each other. The gasp ! As if giving a weapon to a crazy person was a bad idea ! Imagine that. (Nevermind the fact that said dragonkiller could have been used against Naga herself, for the love of...)
Let's also leave them to their own devices so they can screw everything up, instead of killing or sealing them away like it was done with other problematic dragons.
Hell yeah. Best plan ever, totally make sense. Genius writing.10/10 IGN. Too much water.

Okay, sarcasm mode /off, I love this game, truly, but this doesn't make any sense from A to Z.  No this is not smart, this is 100% retarded.
And it doesn't help that they keep using mad people as an excuse, but that's a story for another thing.
 

On 23/06/2017 at 11:02 AM, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

Mila is infact a Manakete, since she IS using a stone in that cutscene, she's holding it before she begins channeling her power into it. How can you not see it, it's purple and huge.

  Reveal hidden contents

Manakete do have draconic traits even while in human form. Also, divine dragons still have a great deal of power and are able to change their form at will, even without the use of a stone, for example, Xane is a divine dragon that can transform into other people, even though he lost his stone centuries ago.

Which begs the question as to why the heck is she batshit insane if she have a dragonstone, since they are supposed to make dragons sane and keep them that way. :p

[Interdimensional Observer]

10 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Which begs the question as to why the heck is she batshit insane if she have a dragonstone, since they are supposed to make dragons sane and keep them that way. :p

Well Tiki had a dragonstone, and she was still in danger of going insane- though she was a child. It could be that Mila's dragonstone was more decorative and less of an actual power-containing dragonstone- she just likes having a magic orb to shoot things from.

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

12 hours ago, B.Leu said:

Which begs the question as to why the heck is she batshit insane if she have a dragonstone, since they are supposed to make dragons sane and keep them that way. :p

Mila isn't insane, and I don't know what makes you think she is.

 

11 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well Tiki had a dragonstone, and she was still in danger of going insane- though she was a child. It could be that Mila's dragonstone was more decorative and less of an actual power-containing dragonstone- she just likes having a magic orb to shoot things from.

This is something I've always had an issue with. The idea of becoming manakete has been presented as a permanent solution in the narrative, yet Tiki was still sealed anyway. It's either a plothole or no one in the universe knows that it's not a permanent solution, but there's never been anyway doubt to that until FE15.

[Interdimensional Observer]

9 hours ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

This is something I've always had an issue with. The idea of becoming manakete has been presented as a permanent solution in the narrative, yet Tiki was still sealed anyway.

Tiki is just that powerful. She was born with her mother Naga's genes, which obviously have to be incredibly potent. A fully mature Tiki could control herself, and in her teenage years in Awakening she seems able to with just a little ritual precaution. Yet as an infant or young child, she lacks the capacity to do this for extended periods of time. Why Naga in all her infinite wisdom which made a dragon sealing emblem and two swords, couldn't make a dragonstone capable of storing all of Tiki's power, I don't know.

As for Mila and Duma- IS didn't think things through completely when they decided to turn Mila and Duma into dragons, but give them humanoid forms at the same time while including dragon degeneration.

[Jotari]

I'd say the risk of madness to Mila and Duma is down to them using their powers so much. Consider the fact that Gotoh and Xane willingly discarded their dragon stones. Why do that? Well because they don't want the ability to turn into a massive dragon for some reason. Why wouldn't they want that ability? Well it must be because there's some risk to it. Hence having a human form slows the degeneration but if they're still spending a lot of time as a dragon (which Manaketes typically only use for combat/Nowi Leisure Time) then they'll still degenerate. Of course that begs the question as to why Duma would be further along than Mila when she's probably using her powers more frequently with her blessings.

[B.Leu]

10 hours ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

Mila isn't insane, and I don't know what makes you think she is.

... The fact that when Ruldolf came to say 'hi I'mma gonna kill you', she smiled like a freaking psycho ? And that she blasted her own temple and followers away ? (Ruldolf's too, but that one is expected) Or maybe th fact that she stupidly decided to seal Falchion away for no reasons ?
Or maybe, the fact tath multiple characters actually outright who say it ? :p

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, B.Leu said:

... The fact that when Ruldolf came to say 'hi I'mma gonna kill you', she smiled like a freaking psycho ? And that she blasted her own temple and followers away ? (Ruldolf's too, but that one is expected) Or maybe th fact that she stupidly decided to seal Falchion away for no reasons ?
Or maybe, the fact tath multiple characters actually outright who say it ? :p

Doesn't she tell Alm and Celica that she sealed the Falchion to protect her brother, not realizing how far gone Duma was and admitting it was a mistake to do so; hence her unsealing the Falchion when Alm was fighting witch-Celica?

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

2 hours ago, B.Leu said:

... The fact that when Ruldolf came to say 'hi I'mma gonna kill you', she smiled like a freaking psycho ? And that she blasted her own temple and followers away ? (Ruldolf's too, but that one is expected) Or maybe th fact that she stupidly decided to seal Falchion away for no reasons ?
Or maybe, the fact tath multiple characters actually outright who say it ? :p

Making a creepy expression doesn't mean you're crazy.

She sealed the Falchion because she didn't want her brother to be killed and eventually realized that was a mistake.

No one ever says she is crazy, the only thing negative said about Mila is that her influence makes humans dependant and lazy.

Lol did you even pay attention to the game

Edited July 12, 2017 by Lord of Gabriel Knight

[B.Leu]

Making creepy expressions doesn't mean that you might be crazy gotta admit... blastng the persons you're supposed to protect and doing crappy and questionable decisions however kiiiiinda does.
Lol did you even pay attention to my post ? :p.

Jest aside, I'm not going to pretend: this detail of her doing it to protect Duma might have slipped out of my mind, though I'm doubtful about it  Can anyone confirm it to me if it's no trouble ?
Though protection or no protection... Falchion was created precisely in case both of them would go crazy, so what gives ?

Also, what do you mean no one say that Mila is crazy ? Like, Rudolf, Mycen and Jedah all say that both gods are going coo-coo if memory serves me right.
Though Jedah... doesn't really count, him being Jedah... but my point is, most of the characters who know pretty much anything that there is to know about gods agree: They're starting to lose their crap. Everything is there.
Not gonna lie, Mila's madness does seem underplayed compared to Duma, but it's still pretty much there.

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

Rudolf is not under Mila's protection, he invaded her temple and then attacked her, so why wouldn't she attack him in turn?

Rudolf and Mycen say that the gods' influence ruins humanity. They both say Duma has gone mad, not Mila. Jedah says Mila has made the Sofians weak, but not that she has gone mad. Mila's madness is underplayed because it's not there.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Lord of Gabriel Knight

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

Rudolf is not under Mila's protection, he invaded her temple and then attacked her, so why wouldn't she attack him in turn?

Rudolf and Mycen say that the gods' influence ruins humanity. They both say Duma has gone mad, not Mila. Jedah says Mila has made the Sofians weak, but not that she has gone mad. Mila's madness is underplayed because it's not there.

He wasn't talking about Rudolf. He's talking about the Mila faithful that she also knocks away with that blast. Bear in mind that Mila was also really incompetent with tolerating all of Lima's crap. Seems she didn't really care that the political system of Sofia was falling apart, so long as her temple was pretty (in the memory prism Slayde even points out how murdering Lima's children could be a bad idea as they're Mila's blood and Desai basically says Mila doesn't care).

Or to put it another way, her dialogue and appearance both in the distant past, and as a spirit after being defeated, both seem very different to how she's acting in the scene with Rudolf.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Jotari

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

Oh, ok, lol.

That was just one short scene, and even then, it's up for interpretation, so it's not strong evidence at all.

[B.Leu]

Yup, Jotari got it right. Thanks Jotari !
 

I'm preeeeeetty sure that Jedah say that madness is the destiny of all dragonkind, of some thing like that at some point in Celica's route. And that Rudolf and Mycen talk about both gods. More about Duma and sometime only Duma, but sometime, Mila's madness is mentioned too.

2 minutes ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

Oh, ok, lol.

That was just one short scene, and even then, it's up for interpretation, so it's not strong evidence at all.

Normally, I would happily agree with you about it being up to interpretation. Alas... :/
I'm not sure which scene you are talking about... but that scene where Mila blast everything was wayyyy too establishing in the coo-coo meter. If you are talking about the discussion between Desaix and Slayde, well there is proofs everywhere that they are not pulling bullcrap out of their asses.

Like Jotari say, the difference between the 'two' Mila is pretty damning, and I'm like, 'Huh ?' 'what's the point' and 'That's incoherent' with what was established. :/

[Etrurian emperor]

21 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Doesn't she tell Alm and Celica that she sealed the Falchion to protect her brother, not realizing how far gone Duma was and admitting it was a mistake to do so; hence her unsealing the Falchion when Alm was fighting witch-Celica?

I think this instance suggests that Mila isn't quite insane but that she did lose the ability to make rational decisions for quite some time. Not only does she seal the Falchion because she loves Duma but she also let Lima and the corrupt Zophians have their way simply because she loved to dote on them so much. 

Maybe this kind of love tunnel vision could be a subtle sigh she's beginning to lose it.  

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

3 hours ago, B.Leu said:

Normally, I would happily agree with you about it being up to interpretation. Alas... :/
I'm not sure which scene you are talking about... but that scene where Mila blast everything was wayyyy too establishing in the coo-coo meter. If you are talking about the discussion between Desaix and Slayde, well there is proofs everywhere that they are not pulling bullcrap out of their asses.

Like Jotari say, the difference between the 'two' Mila is pretty damning, and I'm like, 'Huh ?' 'what's the point' and 'That's incoherent' with what was established. :/

Uh, no. Just because you do something reckless doesn't mean you're insane. That's not what insane is.

Also, no, that is not damning. People aren't just constantly in one emotional state. Are you guys serious? Just because she's angry and upset in scene due to the tension in ONE short scene when someone invades her damn temple and tramples over the place, intending to KILL her and then YEARS later she's behaving differently doesn't mean she's crazy.

Do you even know what insanity is? You guys are aware that people have different emotional states and behaviors and are capable of making reckless actions and mistakes without being called mentally ill, right?

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

Uh, no. Just because you do something reckless doesn't mean you're insane. That's not what insane is.

Also, no, that is not damning. People aren't just constantly in one emotional state. Are you guys serious? Just because she's angry and upset in scene due to the tension in ONE short scene when someone invades her damn temple and tramples over the place, intending to KILL her and then YEARS later she's behaving differently doesn't mean she's crazy.

Do you even know what insanity is? You guys are aware that people have different emotional states and behaviors and are capable of making reckless actions and mistakes without being called mentally ill, right?

There's a difference between reckless and killing you're servants/letting the guy you put in charge rape people indiscriminately. Given the reputation she has as the benevolent mother goddess I think it's safe to say such things are rather out of character for her.

 

Or to look at it another way. Why did IS consciously decide to give her really narrow pupils and sharp finger nails in that one scene where she's fighting Rudolf? To show us that she's just having a really bad day? Or to indicate that there's something off about her overall? The latter makes more sense as the former is just useless information that doesn't add to the story.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Jotari

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

She has sharp fingernails already, that's just what she wears. And again, her facial expression in one moment of tension does not mean she's insane.

It's not out of character, because that is her character. Mila loves people so much that she cares for them even if they do shitty things, like when she sealed the Falchion to keep her brother from being hurt, even though he is insane and stealing people's souls.

She's not perfect and she makes mistakes. Except when she makes them, they affect society in a huge way. That's the whole point of Rudolf's ideology and plan.

Rudolf doesn't want to kill Mila and Doma because they're crazy, it's because their influence makes humanity fucking dependent on them and they stagnate.

We only see Mila twice, once in a moment of tension, and once in a moment of regret. Of course she's going to behave differently! And if IS meant for those moments to say that's she's insane, then that is poor understanding of insanity and poor writing on their part, especially since no one in the story says she's mad.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Lord of Gabriel Knight

[B.Leu]

Tension... Okay.
She is a goddess, or rather a divine dragon, she saw the Falchion, learned that the divine pact of whatever with her brother was voided, and in a moment of 'tension' almost destroy her own temple, her priestess, and everything.

Truly, this along with her slasher smile can only be because of a bad day. :p..

Seriously, there's a form of madness called being bipolar, if my english doesn't fail me.
"Poor understanding of insanity"... dude... just no.

29 minutes ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

Rudolf doesn't want to kill Mila and Doma because they're crazy, it's because their influence makes humanity fucking dependent on them and they stagnate.

In the memory 'The Lasting Promise', Ruldof also mention Duma's madness, Same with Mycen on chapter 4's end, except he mention both, just putting that out. Again.
Not saying that the people are dependent of the 'gods' isn't the main problem, just saying it.

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

She didn't destroy the priestesses. They had a fight and in the ensuing chaos, PLUS the fact that Rigel invaded and occupied the temple, it's clear due to Rigel's hatred of Sofia and contempt for Mila's teachings, they destroyed the place.

I'm not even going to repeat myself on the facial expression.

You don't understand insanity or bipolar disorder is if you're comparing this to those two.

Because they are in control of the humans and are powerful dragons, they are a danger to humans, as Rudolf sees it. Doma being crazy only makes those things worse. If he weren't crazy, he still would've tried to kill both gods.

[TheWill]

Claims that Mila is insane are borderline fallacious. We had very little characterisation from her and almost no dialogue.

5 hours ago, B.Leu said:

Seriously, there's a form of madness called being bipolar, if my english doesn't fail me.

Bipolar (type II) is a mood disorder characterised by bouts of major depressive episodes and periods of inflated hypermania. It doesn't have anything to do with madness, insanity or any other borderline psychotic behaviour. 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

There's a difference between reckless and killing you're servants/letting the guy you put in charge rape people indiscriminately. Given the reputation she has as the benevolent mother goddess I think it's safe to say such things are rather out of character for her.

This was due to portraying the idealistic extremes of both Mila and Duma. That both of them were flawed.

Also visual aesthetics in a characters design are not proof towards Mila's deprivation. Dilluted pupils, widening of eyes are used to portray shock, excitement and a wide variety of other emotions. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by SlipperySlippy

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

5 hours ago, B.Leu said:

be because of a bad day. :p..

Throughout the history of Valentia, whenever Doma and Mila have fought, inciting wars and killing humans on both side, Doma has NEVER once turned the Falchion on Mila. When Rudolf invades her temple with his army, tramples over her subjects, and shows her the Falchion, she says 'Damn you, Doma!' because she believes that he has broken their truce, started another war, and decided to kill her. Which he has never, ever done, in the centuries they have fought.

So the fact that you are downplaying her rightly being upset as 'having a bad day' and say 'clearly she's just crazy' leads me to think you don't understand the way characters feel emotion and how they are made to be human.

[B.Leu]

We are going that much on the technically use of the word bipolar ? Maybe I should have said that Mila was looking awfully melancholic before she went crazy then. Would have spared my dignity.. :p
 

1 hour ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

She didn't destroy the priestesses. They had a fight and in the ensuing chaos, PLUS the fact that Rigel invaded and occupied the temple, it's clear due to Rigel's hatred of Sofia and contempt for Mila's teachings, they destroyed the place.

... You're kidding me right ? She's literally shown to blast her temple, her followers, Rudolf's follower with a blast of energy right in the anime cutscene, wherea the most of what Rudolf's army is shown to do just before is slaming doors, walking straight to her, and getting blasted away.
The ravage in the temple doesn't seem to be made by men, heck, it doesn't even seem to be made by magic at all. what Mila did on the other hand.

19 minutes ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

So the fact that you are downplaying her rightly being upset as 'having a bad day' and say 'clearly she's just crazy' leads me to think you don't understand the way characters feel emotion and how they are made to be human.

Dude, you're the one who started about bad moment and realism, I just followed suit and pointed out how overkill and irrational it was both from the writing and character. :/
Also, how convenient that she is the only character who does that. :p
Well... to be fair, Celica kinda tecnically did, but I prefer to stay away since she is a mixed bag herself too. And she didn't went to such huge scale and explode things.

And you're right she can be upset and all, but that's not the subject at all, just like I'm not 'downplaying' her at all. Geez.

52 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

Also visual aesthetics in a characters design are not proof towards Mila's deprivation. Dilluted pupils, widening of eyes are used to portray shock, excitement and a wide variety of other emotions. 

And the smile too ? :p
No but seriously, you just can't tell me she doesn't look crazy on that shot, like, her expression wouldn't be out of place on a yandere, or hell, a certain character from Pokemon Sun and Moon.
Also, like I said just above no other character have such aesthetics design or actions... then again, they don't have much of such moments, so take that as you will.

Edited July 14, 2017 by B.Leu

[TheWill]

3 hours ago, B.Leu said:

And the smile too ? :p
No but seriously, you just can't tell me she doesn't look crazy on that shot, like, her expression wouldn't be out of place on a yandere, or hell, a certain character from Pokemon Sun and Moon.
Also, like I said just above no other character have such aesthetics design or actions... then again, they don't have much of such moments, so take that as you will.

Nah I agree that the look was a moment of bloodlust, but I think it's understandable given the circumstance.